To Train a puppy,or wait???

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:05 pm

I have to ask how many out there wait to train till a year old, and why?I think for me that would take the full on luster out of it for me.At that point why not just go buy a trainned dog. I guess I would hate to do that intro it to the gun and have a gun shy dog like I have seen twice. I mean is there a big diff between a dog trained from pup to one that started after it was one or better.Just wondered I have seen programs on tv or read here or other mags of folks that wait and just want to know why the wait.

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:13 am

Because a pup is just a baby and should not be subjected to any serious training. They are not developed physically or mentally. All I teach mine are come here, work on whoa a bit without any harsh corrections and let them find birds and have a good time.

I don't know any pro trainers that would attempt any thing other than basic obediance and getting them to hunt and chasing birds at the puppy stage. They are puppies.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:34 am

You can start fun little training games as a puppy ...whoa at dinner time and things like this BIGGEST thing is make all session short and FUN....
Most pro trainers don't like pups as this is a more constant type training and attention spans are short for the young dogs....but every dog is different and where one pup may be ready for a little more formal training at a bit younger age another won't handle pressure at all ....But many training methods have changed through out the years with the modification of the e collars and the lighter stimulation levels some training can be started earlier....

So informal training can begin the day you get your pup home ...DO NOT teach Sit for a pointing breed...But Whoa and Here and leading can be taught and is also important...as this helps teach a dog it's place in the pack....But again I stress for young pups Make the sessions short upbeat fun and only teach one command at a time do not combine the commands.
We do check cord work with young pups having them back older dogs...as long as they are having fun and birds are involved this helps bring up the drive also making the formal training down the road easier as the pup will know how to be handled and less stressed when the real training comes along.
Rick Smith is putting together a puppy video this summer...I am looking forward to seeing it as they have a great program with HOF and champion dogs to back their record So they must be doing something right.

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:55 am

I just wondered I was two different dog growing up in KC that trun gun-shy when thet where sent off to be trained.Boeth were around a year. I was watching Jameson Parker on his show one time with GWPs on it and the lady who had the dog gave no formal training AT ALL , but a leash and name for the first year.It just floored me. I guess I put to much pressure on my pups but I havent had a bad turn out yet.I just wondered.For me I just don't see the what the wait is for, but I don't expect to much either knowing they are PUPPIES if you know what I mean.I guess like I said for me if I'm going to wait Ill save my money and buy a trained dog.Unless someone would show me the difference.I mean this is just me talking and to each is own, dig me. Imean I see it but I just expect the circumstancese.

brush_buster · Post by **brush_buster** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:50 pm

I train dogs for a living and I begin formal training my own at 12 weeks........all my dogs are good hunters even in their first year, though first year dogs will cost you a few birds......at 1 1/2 years old my pups have finished in the money in every event they have been entered in.......that includes one first and a second on a very warm day when the other dogs couldn't smell anything.....

Get a copy of Gun Dog and follow it very closely......then get the DVD to supplement the book.

People that wait til the pup is a year old have just wasted a year of the dog's life IMHO.......remember at a year old a dog can reproduce which is equivalent to a 12-13 year old human.......

Just my 2 cents worth.......I'm no guru.

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:50 am

brush_buster wrote:I train dogs for a living and I begin formal training my own at 12 weeks........all my dogs are good hunters even in their first year, though first year dogs will cost you a few birds......at 1 1/2 years old my pups have finished in the money in every event they have been entered in.......that includes one first and a second on a very warm day when the other dogs couldn't smell anything.....

Get a copy of Gun Dog and follow it very closely......then get the DVD to supplement the book.

People that wait til the pup is a year old have just wasted a year of the dog's life IMHO.......remember at a year old a dog can reproduce which is equivalent to a 12-13 year old human.......

Just my 2 cents worth.......I'm no guru.

The poster is talking about pups under a year old. I'm curious as to what breed of dogs you are doing this with and what kind of events you are entering. Are you saying these pups are completely broke dogs at one year old? They have placed at this age, was this against adult dogs in a real trial or a hunt test? Just because a dog can produce means nothing as far as maturity goes. Putting pressure on a pup doesn't make sense in the long run and can ruin many. I see you are a pro trainer, what is the name of your kennel?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:13 am

AKC and American field both have puppy stakes this is for pups 6 months and older...they only require a puppy to run and can flash point should they find a bird....there is no stress or real formal training required for this and the puppies love to run ...what the judges look for is a pup that shows signs of potential...out going checking out cover and using the nose and run run run

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:42 am

Yes I know of the trials. I have been running in American field trials for some time. By the post from brush_buster above though it appears to me he is saying he is fully training a dog by 1 1/2 years old.

I usually train a dog to have the tools necessary for the stakes of the age of the dog. All a pup needs to do is hunt and show a high desire and cover some ground with style. I don't see the need to put pressure on a young dog and try to break them as a puppy. A lot of good prospects get ruined that way as they are not ready. I don't break them until about 2 years old at the end of the derby carreer, give or take depending on the individual dogs readiness. I just hate to see a guy rush a dog and never get the full potential out of him because of it.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:35 am

This is true....We do alot of ie informal type training on the young pups backing and exposing to birds ..making it all fun
we save the real polishing for when they are ready for it...which is easier on one that has been exposed and already handled then one that hasn't had anything done with them....

Young pups and and young dogs everything should be done in short sessions and made as fun as possible

You'll have plenty of time for the formal training and years to hunt and or trial with down the road ..build a nice slow solid foundation and the rewards will really show up later when the formal training starts

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:10 pm

With the right hands and the right dog you can have a finished/broke dog by a year old. Each dog is different and each trainer is too. There are many Finished champions before the age of two and younger. I have finished dogs at 7-8 months old. With style and polish.

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:56 pm

Fletcher's littermate has been finished for almost 6 months. Fletcher is, uhh, huntable. They will turn 2 next month.

The difference? Fletcher's littermate stayed with the breeder and guides hunts. There was a reason to finish him early. Fletcher lives with us and goes hunting on occasion for kicks. No reason to get him finished in a snap. So my thought was, why force it all on him as a pup when I have all the time in the world to do so?

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:04 pm

What are some of the many Field Trial Champs under 2 years old that you are aware of. Champion in what kind of trials? I really am interested in knowing. I have never seen a two year old in coverdog trials show and have the maturity and experiance to beat seasoned trial dogs in the woods. Some may run well and find birds but are not at the level of a dog with age and experiance behind it and the knowledge on what cover to seek out and what to leave alone. I know of a derby that won a Amatuer Championship a couple years ago but unfortunately hasn't done anything since. Hunt tests I do not consider to be trials.

Yes each dog is different, but I don't know of any responsible pro trainers that break 1 year old dogs. When I say finished broke dog, It's broke to wing and shot and does not move until released. I don't consider a dog that goes with the shot to be finished although hunters may not care if they go with the bird for hunting purposes and that is fine. Most trainers I know will caution owners about trying to break a dog under a few years old. I would say to call any of the top trainers and ask them to break your 11 month old pup and see what kind of response you get.

I have young pups that point at a few months old from the first bird they scent but I don't try and break and finish them at one year because of it. I'm just curious about this as I do a lot of wild bird coverdog trialing and yet to come across anyone breaking puppies and very few derbies unless they are really ready. I know a lot of the horse back guys break derbies early but not at 1 year old or near that. There are many reasons not to and very few if any reason to do it. I'm not wanting to argue the point, but I hate for inexperianced guys to get bad advice and possibly ruin a potentially good dog.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:46 pm

OK guessing by the first post I was to the impression of a Finished or Broke dog was the amount of training, not if it was deleared a Champion in a trial format.
Even tho I will take you at your comment and get you a list of dogs that have gained a FC or AFC to the front of there name.... Sorry I can not do much on Cover dog trails......

I also no a few Hunt test dogs that have been finished MH at the ripe ol' age of a year. Give me some time I will get you a list!

Small Munsterlander · Post by **Small Munsterlander** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:38 pm

Some of the not so lately research on the mental and emotional development of pups in their first year suggest that doing very little with a pup in that first year is wasting opportunities to help develop the pups mind and ability to learn. Wolters was one of the first to make this research "popular" or maybe "available" is a better choice of words. Another word that probably needs defining is "training". Some here have said "informal". Others have suggested "pressure free".

I start what I will call training (it may be informal to some but to me there are progressions and structure but very little to no pressure). I teach come, stand, sit (I know but that topic has been beaten to death), get around, their name and fetch, and start housebreaking. I also start socializing (which includes some of the former. I do this with the idea the pup does no wrong and give them daily exporitory walks. This all starts at 6-8 weeks depending on if it is my breeding or a purchased pup. Within a month or so (does vary pup to pup) the are introduced to birds, water and possibly the gun. Well under a year they are introduced to the launcher. And normally they are tested in NAVHDA before they are 1 year of age. In that first year they also know several wistle commands, to go with me, work out in front, how to retrieve from land and water (birds and dummies) and have been to an obedience course (which normally I teach or assist). And they have also had hundreds of hours out in fields, woods and marshes as well as being socialized to my falcons.

Is that formal training? Depending on one's definition. But I sure wouldn't nor have I waited for a year to do the above with any of my dogs nor have I recommended that my over 150 clients wait either. Bill

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:46 pm

Rock wrote:What are some of the many Field Trial Champs under 2 years old that you are aware of. Champion in what kind of trials? I really am interested in knowing. I have never seen a two year old in coverdog trials show and have the maturity and experiance to beat seasoned trial dogs in the woods. Some may run well and find birds but are not at the level of a dog with age and experiance behind it and the knowledge on what cover to seek out and what to leave alone. I know of a derby that won a Amatuer Championship a couple years ago but unfortunately hasn't done anything since. Hunt tests I do not consider to be trials.

Yes each dog is different, but I don't know of any responsible pro trainers that break 1 year old dogs. When I say finished broke dog, It's broke to wing and shot and does not move until released. I don't consider a dog that goes with the shot to be finished although hunters may not care if they go with the bird for hunting purposes and that is fine. Most trainers I know will caution owners about trying to break a dog under a few years old. I would say to call any of the top trainers and ask them to break your 11 month old pup and see what kind of response you get.

I have young pups that point at a few months old from the first bird they scent but I don't try and break and finish them at one year because of it. I'm just curious about this as I do a lot of wild bird coverdog trialing and yet to come across anyone breaking puppies and very few derbies unless they are really ready. I know a lot of the horse back guys break derbies early but not at 1 year old or near that. There are many reasons not to and very few if any reason to do it. I'm not wanting to argue the point, but I hate for inexperianced guys to get bad advice and possibly ruin a potentially good dog.

One so far is a dog called FC/AFC/Ch Chabasco II he is a male Brit Dave Walker finshed all his titles by the age of you ready for this????
Hmm!
19 months of age!
I talked to a friend about this and he had some other dogs he mentioned that all were finished with an FC by 2. Sorry I forgot some of the names. He also talked about a female brit that was Shady marie something or the other that ran in the nationals before she was 2! Not sure if she won but he did say she was a Dual Ch by the age of two. I am still working on some others too.
It was some time ago I read about a male GSP that had finished his FC at around 7 months and was only a few points away from his AFC. I believe it was K-Hawks ????? Still looking

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:56 pm

AK there are those pups and young dogs which have alot of natural ability
tomka smokin sadie is the youngest to attain a championship in NSTRA at 10 months old prior to that it was beeline wink before the age of 2

this is the exception not the rule....i have seen many a dog ruin from to much pressure..loose on point flagging or multitudes of other submissive types of behavior out in the field.
I know alot of titles being put on dogs from handlers going to easy trials where the competion is extremely lax. just like in shows people will check who the judges are before places the dogs as a field type will not fair well with a judge who is a fancv long hair type judge. so attaining a DC on a dog is hard as what one judge will consider a placement anther will think the dog is thin and to short of hair. I have seen dogs that should win but get bad breaks like handlers missing a bird costing titles or placements.
But for a young dog to be broke by a year this dog has to be extremely intense on birds with alot of natural abilities. because if this was the norm then your trials and dogs would all be super stars.

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:32 pm

It has been stated already a few times,and I will again its just my opinion.I think it is wasted time.Not to get into a pee contest, but the little liver GSP in the background of my pic was just 8 months old at the time. I no several trainers out here that start at 10 to 12 weeks of age in training. I run two, two year olds and a four year old with ease. I was just wanting to know if ther really was a method to the madness. Brush-buster I totally agree with you. To each his own,and I always thought that was just for dog breeds, politics,religion, and now training.But I still have not been told why I would want to wait that would convince me for my next pup. For me without putting any real pressure on a pup, I want to be hunting ASAP knowing in my head though it is a PUP!, praise and time will payoff faster than anything else. just my 2 cents.

brush_buster · Post by **brush_buster** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:03 am

This is a tough crowd to share an opinion with........

As I said, I have used the training methods of Richard Wolters as laid out in his book "Gun Dog", which is about forty years old......there is also an updated DVD version that when used with the book will really help the novice.......in the book he breaks down the learning periods into 5 critical periods.......forty nine to eighty four days is kindergarten.......eighty four to one hundred twelve days is "Real School".

There are so many old timers that still hold to the belief that you shouldn't work a dog for the first year......this book proves them wrong..........After watching my dogs work, there are several old timers in our area that now work their dogs using the same methods.

The Question was asked about my dogs - did they compete against adult dogs - the answer is yes.

My dogs do have the advantage of belonging to a guide/outfitter so they get in the field up to five times a week during quail season.

I run only GSPs in my business..........They are easy to train, work close, loyal, protective, and never quit on me.

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:01 am

Don't get me wrong. I will hunt a dog as soon as it is ready. By finishing a dog I think of it as breaking the dog. As I said I will teach basic commands and let the dog do what comes natural until about a year or so. Also work on patterning but nothing is drilled into the dog at puppy age. I try bring along the natural desire and develope the dog, not force him at a young age. You can take a lot of natural style and independence out of a pup by starting to early. I have seen it many times. In coverdog trials style is important as well as finding birds. And even in hunting dog I like to see the same. Not a broke down shoe polisher that needs my approval and guidance to get through a hunt. It works for me, I do have a few championships and runner-ups. Again I run in American Field wild bird trials and on occasional walking trials. I do not consider AKC hunt tests or championships won on points that work on legs of several tests to be any measure of the quality of a dog as far as a championship goes.

No offense but personally I consider Richard Wolters a writer, not a dog trainer. Just my opinion. Do what works for you.

loneeagle15 · Post by **loneeagle15** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:05 am

I agree with brush buster Wolters book is excellent and he explains why you should start early

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:23 am

This is a topic that no one will ever agree on. What works for you and your personal training methods is the final note, as everyone trains different. I personally like to let pups grow up, expose them to everything I can then start their training according to their own maturity. Usually around a yr old. I also like to get training dogs at that age if they are started on birds, if not I like to get them younger for a good bird start. Just the way I do it.....

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:01 pm

Rock wrote: Again I run in American Field wild bird trials and on occasional walking trials. I do not consider AKC hunt tests or championships won on points that work on legs of several tests to be any measure of the quality of a dog as far as a championship goes.
.

Rock
believe me I would love to run a Traditional trial or two, but a fact be know that some places don't have the wild bird coveys or flocks others do. Therefore we must test our training, our dogs, our minds on any format that we can. We offer up or dogs for judgment and hope that our training has done what we have planned it too.
I am like you, or maybe not! I try not to compare a trial to trials(test to tests). Each trains for what they run in. A Championship is Just that, A Championship in it's own format. I highly dought that any format if the dog is a champion that it is a boot polisher!
Tom

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:02 pm

I am with those who believe in, "starting them early" but then again I am looking at training a hunting dog and not a dog for competition. To me there is a difference. The sooner you start your pup for hunting, I feel and have proven, with encouragement, not training you can focus a pup in the right direction and have a productive hunting dog its first year.. Also, to start early is to help avoid bad habits along the way. For example: with the trial dog or dog wanted for competition most trainers want that dog to learn independence and this independence is easly gained by allowing the pup to be a pup as many proclaim. Not only does the pup left alone to grow become independent but they also seem to take on a what are you going to do about it attitude, and that kind of attitude is needed to bring home the ribbons. It is very easy to catch a young pup to make a gentle correction but try to catch a 1 year old with out the help of a collar. Impossible! This is not to say that dogs to be trained for competiton are out of controll, I am only saying most dog trainers do not want to baby sit a puppy and would rather take an untouched, unspoiled dog that is ready for the hard core type of training without having to wait for them to grow up and most pocket books could not aford to send their dog to a trainer starting at 3 months of age only to wait for that pup to mature enough. To me nothing is lost for a novice to start their pup the day they bring it home. Teach it to come, start with retreiving. Just simple little lessons and the pup won't even know it is being trained. If one chooses to wait, chances are they will have to seak out the help of a professional and of course there is nothing wrong with that. There are many out there to help you.

Starting young, I feel developes a closer bond between master and the pup causing the pup to be more reliant on you and what you are about to ask..

I would like to make it clear so there is no missunderstanding. There is no reason a pup who is started early can not make it in the competative world, just as the dog who is allowed to grow up won't make it in the hunting world. We all have choices, Which one to choose is up to us.

Janet

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:58 pm

I do believe in informal puppy training building up a foundation for formal training when a dog is mentally ready for training....But until a dog is mentally ready for ie real pressure of really being asked to preform should not be done when the attention level isn't built up to that of an adult dog or a more mature dog....

But I all to commonly see people wanting a 9 month old pup to behave like a 3 year old dog and get frustrated when the attention isn't there and then apply pressure wanting to make the dog do things which this is the point of no return in alot of dogs....every dog is different and should be handled differnt I don't like books because one book is not capable of covering every situation or written in ways for everyone to comprehend. I have seen book worm trainers ruin dogs because they can't stick to one method and figure out the timing ..so they read another and do something else the next time out....Then when they have thoughly confused a dog they give up and send it to a trainer..which now the trainer has to undo all the damage the owner did so this is another reason many pro trainer prefer owners not mess to much with a dog before training.

I think these forums have helped alot for people as if something is confusing them they can resort to the forum and hopefully get a few different but same type answer which one method may make total sense to them and they can move on from there.

so training early what do you want to constitute as training playing whoa games and here games and fetch games for short periods of time with a pup or are you talking about putting a 8 week old pup and working the whoa post and hitting them with an e collar on a bird bigger then them to be steady on point

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:20 pm

Tak, I never said or implied that any champion is a shoe polisher. I will say there are vast differences though depending on the type of trial. There are many trial games out there. Whichever one you choose to play and makes you happy is what it's all about.

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:39 pm

kninebirddog,
Good post, sounds like you know your dogs. I often see the same mistakes as you mentioned. Rush,rush,rush. No time to be a puppy. Drop the hammer.

I personally consider any early training (less than a year old) to be getting bird contacts, try to establish a nice pattern naturally and to come. I work on whoa but not in a demanding way, make it fun and don't force the issue until they are ready to get their first dose of pressure usually past a year old. I never try to completely break a dog to wing and shot until after their second season. Steady to wing after they are a year old or possibly younger depending on the dog, but never a issue of force when under a year of age. Usually my dogs have been steady to wing(some times)as pups after their first few bird contacts pretty much on their own.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:38 pm

This thread is a good one as long as people explain there method of training and don't start telling other people who train differently they are wrong. So far I think everyone on here knows there dogs and if that is true then you also know different dogs require different methods sometimes and respond differently also.

If the truth was known each of you are probably training very much alike but are stating it differently. I can't think of a single reason that a pup wouldn't be started as soon as it comes home. Learning its name, learning to come, are just a couple of the things you start training immediately. And then it works up from there.

I have my prefered training methods and prefered times to do them but with each dog there are factors that sometimes change. That is why we continue to enjoy training, looking forward to what we might help produce. But when you get to the point that you are convinced there is only one way to train and every dog you train will turn out identical to the others then you have lost your ability to be a top notch trainer and must be bored to death doing the same thing over and over with every dog and having everyone of them turn out to be Champions.

Ezzy

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:46 pm

kninebirddog wrote:I do believe in informal puppy training building up a foundation for formal training when a dog is mentally ready for training....But until a dog is mentally ready for ie real pressure of really being asked to preform should not be done when the attention level isn't built up to that of an adult dog or a more mature dog....

But I all to commonly see people wanting a 9 month old pup to behave like a 3 year old dog and get frustrated when the attention isn't there and then apply pressure wanting to make the dog do things which this is the point of no return in alot of dogs....every dog is different and should be handled differnt I don't like books because one book is not capable of covering every situation or written in ways for everyone to comprehend. I have seen book worm trainers ruin dogs because they can't stick to one method and figure out the timing ..so they read another and do something else the next time out....Then when they have thoughly confused a dog they give up and send it to a trainer..which now the trainer has to undo all the damage the owner did so this is another reason many pro trainer prefer owners not mess to much with a dog before training.

I think these forums have helped alot for people as if something is confusing them they can resort to the forum and hopefully get a few different but same type answer which one method may make total sense to them and they can move on from there.

so training early what do you want to constitute as training playing whoa games and here games and fetch games for short periods of time with a pup or are you talking about putting a 8 week old pup and working the whoa post and hitting them with an e collar on a bird bigger then them to be steady on point

Not all people have access to forums. Some don't even know this or other forums exists. To say books don't help is a way out statement. Many, including myself, might not have had much success in our first attempt at training a hunting dog if it wasn't for the book. As for forum imput, some posters have only trained 1 or 2 dogs in their lifetime and are offering their advice as though they have the knowledge of a pro trainer. As your post reads, some advice even from books can screw up a dog, Why do you feel advice from a forum won't do the same?

Your statement above is really troubling to me when you ask about ecollars on an 8 week old puppy and the whoa post. Had you read the post correctly I believe it was written to encourage a puppy, not train at an early age..

Janet

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:08 pm

JAnet I think you need to re read my post first off i never said books are a waste

I said with a reason why I don't like them as I have had to deal with quite a few dogs where people didn't Read or understand them right...Nothing like a frustrated owner saying he has a worthless dog because it didn't follow a 16 week program or other books out there. JMHO
Dogs and birds are my life...We try and get people to come with their dogs and learn with their dogs when i send puppy's out to there new owners i show them how to teach whoa as a game and other things I also remind them they have a puppy and to keep things simple for them. I said in the previous post

"I don't like books because one book is not capable of covering every situation or written in ways for everyone to comprehend. I have seen book worm trainers ruin dogs because they can't stick to one method and figure out the timing ..so they read another and do something else the next time out...
Quote on the I HAVE SEEN I didn't say everyone but it happens quite often

as for the last paragraph reread it In no way am i suggesting a person put an e collar on a pup this is more of a question to help bring things back in context about early training and yes i EXAGERATED(SP?) IT on purpose

"so training early what do you want to constitute as training playing whoa games and here games and fetch games for short periods of time with a pup or are you talking about putting a 8 week old pup and working the whoa post and hitting them with an e collar on a bird bigger then them to be steady on point "
So reread my post and don't put words in that are NOT there

dhondtm · Post by **dhondtm** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:36 pm

kninebirddog wrote:so training early what do you want to constitute as training playing whoa games and here games and fetch games for short periods of time with a pup

This is so right on in my opinion, you hit the key point for short periods. Keep it short, keep it fun, end your sessions while the pup is still very actively having fun.

brush_buster · Post by **brush_buster** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:32 pm

dhondtm wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:so training early what do you want to constitute as training playing whoa games and here games and fetch games for short periods of time with a pup
This is so right on in my opinion, you hit the key point for short periods. Keep it short, keep it fun, end your sessions while the pup is still very actively having fun.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That is exactly the way I train.......I keep the training sessions with each pup to 10/15 minutes even during "Real School" day 84 to 112 days.........I don't want them to lose interest and if they do we quit for the day....but we do quit on something the dog does successfully......

A study was done on Guide Dogs for the Blind.......using the very best stock only 20% were able to go through the training and become Guide Dogs........they then started training the dogs at seven weeks old and the % went up to 94% of the dogs graduating to become Guide Dogs for the Blind.........nine of the litters tested produced a 100% graaduation rate......

Previously, no one believed you could begin training at such an early age..........

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:19 pm

To add to the R. Walters bit though he had trained many successfull dogs one thing he put in all his books was a time schedual w/ an animal that has no sense of time. although a dog can learn all these commands in that time period many people over look the fact that a dog may have learned the word but he is not real reliable that you will be constantly having to go back and review learned commands. that is why informal training early is so beneficial so you can work on certian commands that are most important

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:43 pm

This is what I was wanting to here from everyone. I just don't think you can put pressure on a pup like you may think, like a person. As long as the pup is having fun and getting praised for good doings. I have seen it unfold right infront of me with several pups as long as they come from good stock(mom and dad hunt) as far as training goes 85% is all instinct and the last 15 % is all trained buy you like whoa,sit,stay,heel,etc. So for putting to much pressure or stress on a pup under a year it is hard for me to see it. I too think you miss out on bonding too.Hey everyone has done very well in answering the post for me and each other i think.

Training is in the eyes of the hunter behind the dog.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:49 am

One issue that I think this thread illustrates, is what does "train" mean. I see people saying that the old timers would not "train" a dog until a year old. Honestly, that is just incorrect. They might wait to break a dog, and to do hard core yard work. But they would have pup in the field at a few weeks to a few months, running on birds, learning to point, getting bold. The traditional pointer/setter trainers take big strings of dogs to the prairies to run them and always have. They won't take a five week old. Needs socialization, and would not do well on a stake out chain for the summer. But most will take dogs at 6 months. They are training them. There are few or no commands involved at this point, they are not putting ecollars on them and tapping in to the nearest power station, they are exposing them to birds, other dogs, horses, etc. They are letting the dog learn to find birds and point them. This is training to be a bird dog, nonetheless. Has been done this way forever. In fact, good pros will tell you that if you wait until dog is a year old to start exposing them to birds, you have waited too long. Another way to put it is that starting this, gently obviously, at a few weeks, and building it up slowly, is just right. Waiting to start until after a year of age is "not too late." Waiting to start until after two years is "never too late." Some teaching of commands works its way into the process.

The decision of when to break a dog is a different deal entirely, and it is the start of this training that most people have in mind when they are talking about not "training" a dog until they are a year old.

Let me give a personal example. Bred a litter of shorthairs three years ago. Kept a male and a female. Started working all pups at 4 - 5 weeks on a "wing on a string." Would work them one by one, but one day wife, not knowing I was working a pup, turned the whole litter out the door. They came roaring at us, and every single one went into a back. One 5 week old pointing, 6 backing. Young enough they were still a little tipsy on their feet. No commands were given at any time, no "whoa," no "careful," no "easy," no pressure. Would also give them small balls, etc. to play with. They would chew them, fight over them, carry them around. Were being trained to fetch. Also, made 7 little "leads" out of 1/4 inch stiff nylon, and would put them on all the pups, a trick I picked up from Delmar Smith book. Pups would haul each other around, breaking each other to lead. When the time came to put them on a real lead, it was just no big deal. I was training as early as 4 weeks, no doubt. Kind of fun, too. Every one of those pups is a bird dog today.

At a hair under five months the male went to a field trial pro, who has good gentle hands with dogs. AKC trials and the dog is a GSP. He won puppy points quickly, then derby points. At one year the pro and I had a talk about whether the pro should start to break him. There was no point in running him in young dog stakes any further. For those who maybe don't know, it takes 10 points under AKC rules to make a Field Champion, max of 2 can be earned in puppy stakes, and max of another 2 can be earned in derby, so he was "maxed out." Pro felt he was ready, it looked to me like he was, and I know this pro has good judgment and good hands, so the verdict was yes, go ahead, be careful. He won his first broke dog stake at 2 years, and was a finished FC before three. Other dogs have done it younger, many older. My point is that breaking can indeed be done at an early age, but it depends very much on the particular dog and the handler, and whether and when to go ahead with it, is a judgment call to be exercised with care. Most FT pros now, do not like to wait much beyond a year and a half, and have done considerable preliminary work before that time. Lines of dogs today seem to be more biddable and trainable at a young age than dogs of 30 years ago. Good breeding.

One of the posters raised the issue that there are some classes of dogs, like cover dogs, where the vast majority of champions are mature, seasoned dogs. Definitely would agree with this. With GSP's, there is a whole separate trial circuit of hour stakes for Regional Championships, wild bird championships, and nationals. Dog really needs to be an AKC FC or close to it to seriously compete. Vast majority of the winners are four years or more, vet dogs that know the program. As is typical of AF and AFTCA, winning a single stake designated a Championship, makes a dog a Ch. on this circuit. Does not make the AKC FC any less valuable a title, and for purposes of this discussion (when to train and when to break), the AKC FC is a fully broke dog. Have judged grouse trials, and being wild bird trials, it is the dogs that have a couple of years actually hunting the things, that generally win. Have to be able to find a wild bird. No dispute there.

The female I kept is three, and I am just breaking her now. The delay is not because of her, it was mine. Twin titanium hips kept me from it. But she is breaking just fine. And no harm in the delay, because she has been hunted, had maybe a hundred birds killed over her, has been worked on planted birds, and has had some yard work the entire time. So she is plenty bold on birds, and is taking the training well. She will be broke and standing proud by summer's end.

So as for early starts, really it has always been that way, at least for several decades. Can't speak to 1902 myself. As for when it should start, well right out of the box, so long as it is done the right way. Like letting a child have toys to play with, to learn motor skills and tools. Would not put a pinch collar on a six week old or even a six month old. Would be "training" nevertheless.

Post by **grant** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:54 am

Awesome post John!!!! Well said....

Gun Dog Forum

To Train a puppy,or wait???

To Train a puppy,or wait???

wait or not?

wait or not?

train puppy or not

?