Feeding Raw Meat!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:44 pm

I started feeding Raw meat tonight. No improvement yet! Disadvantage nearly had a digit bit off!
QC I have to add this I will get my corn in the diet no matter what. The deer was shot today standing on the side of a corn field! :shock:

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:33 pm

Tak, did you get any pics of the Deer...post them if you can, I'm getting pumped for deer season...I'm leaving for a week on Nov.9th hope I come back with some meat.

In Ontario we can hunt with dogs, so a buddy will be using his Redbone and Plotthound.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:15 pm

I was told that it was a 2X3 mule deer. I did not shoot it a friend loves to hunt but hates the meat. I love the meat but guiding bird hunters this time of the year makes it hard to hunt deer. Needless to say no pictures!

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:06 am

Good deal Tak!

I have to hold off on the meat for a bit...........my aim never improved!

My future brother in law is our game warden here, I'm sure he will confiscate a few!

I fed bones and all........the stools will be tight and small, could cleanthe kennels with a putter!

Phil
REO

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:53 am

hey phil,
maybe you can use some of those turkeys that won't move out of the road until those deer take off their bullet proof vests

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:30 pm

QC, The feeding continues. I know you told me your rations but my thick skull did not heed the warning! I got some liver and white pot belly pigs in the kennel! I never cut back the ration of dog food! I think I got it know!

Question: have you ever had dogs start chewing the birds on this diet? My Very gentle natural retrieving female chewed up a bird today in training? I worked 15 birds(chukars) with her today and the first one she chewed and never did retrieve it. Of all the birds she did this to two or three of them. They were not shot up either....

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:37 am

QC,

I am sold on it! Believe it or not I seen an improvment in the dogs! Very big thanks for the insight!

Working on some land owner tags (2) for some doe's!

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:43 pm

HEy Tak.....Sorry didnt see your question here earlier....... I haven't had a dog chew birds on this diet, or let me say, never made that corolation......Now I will watch for it!

Glad it worked for you, the dogs realy need the creatine in their diet! THe raw meat is real digestable too! We have a butcher shop set up here, so everything goes throught the grinder, the dogs get a hamburger consistancy of meat. I also feed them the bones as treats. Don't forget to keep them on kibble as well. THey need the filler.

We only got two deer here this year, but the special doe season is coming in soon.

I also found out a bit of information after working at the sale barn for a year now! We finished our Vet work early and got to sit in on the last part of the sale two weeks ago. Non grade slaughter cows (ones that the slaughter house wont buy) sell for 3 to 5 dollars, for the whole cow! I am in the process of building a hoist that will accomodate them right now! The dogs will never run out of meat again!

PHil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:47 pm

I will check at our sell barn. Not sure if I could handle a good size beef!
You know I had the problem one day that the dogs seemed to want to eat the birds???? I have not had the problem since. Also the dog that was doing it is the softest mouth dog every. My be it was the weather?
Thanks Again

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:29 pm

aaaa give it some thought Tak.......

Take the cow home......give it a lead injection and use the easy to take off meat (hind quartes and shoulders) chain saws work wonders!

Use the rest for yote bait!

Phil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:10 pm

Chainsaw!!!!?
You get right to the point don't you!

New Movie, Oklahoma Chainsaw Carvings! In a Freezer near you!

portsider44 · Post by **portsider44** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:42 am

Tak,

You still feeding raw meat?? If so how is it going after 3 mths & what changes have you seen in (endurnace, bluid, coat)?

Also describe what a typical meal would be.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:38 pm

I too, am interested in this. You mentioned creatin, I believe? Is this lost during cooking?
What portions meat to kibble do you use?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:42 pm

After the deer ran out I could not find a good source. When I was feeding it I liked it alot an it has promted me to buy a deer tag next year!
Ration was 80% meat and 20% kibble

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:44 am

Tak,

Did you contact your local Game Warden, or road crew? There are road kills daily. I am sure they would be happy if they had someone to pick them up for them!

I still think the sale barns are the best place to shop! Lately the highest I have seen non grade cows go for was 50 bucks. It all depends on how many people want dog food bad enough!

I am glad to hear the meat worked for you and the dogs.

Phil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 pm

Ya I have talked with the Fish Cops about this such thing. Most the times it is hit by Semi's and I would need a squeggy to get them. Also most people in Utah hit them and drive to the next town and say I hit one and fill a report....
I did check on the low grade cows... There is none that I seen go very cheap......
I am doing this thou... I am putting in for every hunt this year!

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:53 pm

Years back we fed horse meat. Found it hard to come by with only one source who had a supply. Also found the added work running out to pick it up and having to keep it frozen and thawing out for daily use to be a pain in the butt. I didn't see any change to my dogs hunting ability or stamina when we switched back to regular brand dog food. With all the quality dog food we have on the market seems to me messing around with that balance could result in a dog lacking some important nutrient. Even though you say to give them kibbles along with the meat how do you know they are getting the right balance?. I never did understand why we fed raw meat and would like to know the reasons you are feeding raw meat now. We are not running sled dogs who's energy level has to be peaked for days at a time because of the gruelling 4 day and night race they run.
Janet

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:48 pm

Janet,

You are right in saying the average dog could survive on mass produced kibble. And yes keeping the meat, having it ready daily, especially on the road is a big pain in the hind quarters.

There isnt a way for a dog food company to fill the fat or creatine content needed by our dogs.

Tak and I train, guide and compete with our dogs. Mine work hard all season long, then put in a grueling trial season afterwards.

I have tried all types of food available, used several additives, which do work rather well. But I have found that they retain body weight better on a raw meat additive diet. They utilize more of the raw meat than all the garbage in the kibble. A close eye is kept on our dogs health and well being here, as I have a live in Vet! She wasnt totally convinced with my ideas till she saw the results.

I also have a unusual high supply of beef when deer season is out. The only har dpart is getting them butchered on my own!

Phil
REO

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:12 am

Hi Phil,

Sounds like you run a large operation and your dogs are pushed to the limits. I would guess under those circumstances raw meat would give them an advantage to maintain muscle tone and fat content.

Most of us are the average bird hunter who can maintain our dogs muscle tone and weight just by feeding a high quality dog food. I have found all that is required is to increase the amout fed after a long days hunt. Not in one large feeding that day, but through two feedings the next day. The following day they are back on their normal portion.

Some of our readers take every word we say to heart and I just wanted to explain to the one or two dog owners they need not feed raw meat to get maximun results in the field.

Again, I found it a pain, and when I ran out I was back to feeding the commerical dog food until I could get another supply of raw meat. I was not in favor of constantly changing their diet and stopped feeding the raw meat.

Janet

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:24 am

Phil,

Would a creatine supplement for humans work on dogs? I wouldn't give it to them, but I know the effect it has on people is NICE. It can make you cramp, but the muscle mass and endurance sky rocket.

Grant

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:50 am

Also, I remember from high school in 98' creatine got popular. At that time no long term effects could be said because it was so new.

Decoy · Post by **Decoy** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:10 am

grant wrote: Would a creatine supplement for humans work on dogs? I wouldn't give it to them, but I know the effect it has on people is NICE. It can make you cramp, but the muscle mass and endurance sky rocket.

Grant

I would shy away from creatine -- unless some vet tells me it is ok - but i have used a human grade protein powder supplement. www.cytosport.com I used it when i could not get one of our dogs to gain weight. The dog was swimming laps in the pool from 7:30am to 4:00pm everyday. He was burning off everything he would eat. I was scared to give him a weight gainer so i figured that protein would work --- and it did. Though i will say that i only used it until the the 2lb container was gone b/c it was expensive.

Phil has some pretty good supplements that are designed for sled dogs but again they are expensive too.

portsider44 · Post by **portsider44** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:13 am

I just wonder for the average hunter, if you could get some benefit by feeding raw meat on a part time basis? Something like 2-4 times per week, geared around hunting times? Treating it more like a natural supplement to the kibble vs. just increasing the kibble to maintain bulk.

If so how much would you need to feed to on average per week to add value?

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:10 am

i don't see how adding something good to a diet could hurt a dog's performance. as long as you weren't compeltely changing his diet around.... which could possibly make his stomach upset??? it seems like adding the raw meat like that in addition to your regular food would be a good thing. i know that the protein supplements helped our dogs when eric gave it to them. and if you are able to get the meat inexpensively then that is great too! phil has a formula that he uses..... if i remember 1/4 kibble 3/4 meat? is that right phil?

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:32 am

All valid points

You need to maintain calories to maintain weight, fat is the cheapest and most effcient caloric ingredient. A given unit of fat gives you more calories than a given unit of protein. This is why, along with other nutritional values, I still use kibble and additives.

The more expensive ingredient in dog food is the preservative, which is required to keep the fat from going rancid. Proteins are the said ingredient. We go through a ton of food a month here so shelf life isnt a concern. But for the major companies there isnt a way to keep the fat going rancid sitting n the shelf for an extended period of time.

This is a topic that could be debated with no documented proof in either direction. Or at least trusted......ONe major brand... had to try three times to meet the guidelines to keep weight on the test dogs. Which were never allowed outside of a cage! And it is touted as performance food!

There is a gentleman on this board who has a PHD in animal nutrition, he and I have disagreed on this point before.

I sat in on two seminars from two of the biggest dog food manufactures in the country last week. I had to contain myself......What a line of crap they were throwing.......but hard working dogs are the smallest percentage of their customer base.

Proof is in the pudding I say.........

Not to get in to the debate over average and above average hunter and the difference between the two........

There is another on this board, who for the past few years had problems getting his dogs through the hunting season while keeping weight on them and having them work hard for several days a week. He isnt feeding raw meat but has tried the supps I use and is getting great results.

I know Major trial circuit trainers whom are sponsored by the biggest dog food company in the business, they are using the same supps I do behind closed doors! Wonder why?

For the average family person who hunts three to four days a month, there isn't a concern. Keeping the dog in shape will do just fine along with a good food.

There is no way to give a calculated formula to feed your dog. All breeds vary, as do type of hunting and what is expected from the dog. Time of year amd temperatures play an enormous role, our dogs rations are cut in half in the summer and they still work, jsut not as hard.

Creatine additves are expensive and not that perfect, in my opinioon, natural is the way to go and only found in raw meat.

Just an opinion though....and ti works for me.

Phil
REO

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:02 am

Nice explaination.
What about beef suite in place of raw meat? . Not sure on that spelling. It has a lot of fat content and can be found at any store that sells meat. Cheap also.
My only concern is how do we know we are giving the right amount of this or that? It can be very easy to upset the balance.
Janet

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:44 pm

How much was my first mistake. I kinda over feed the raw meat. The dog gained weight farelly fast. With my biggest dog I was feeding 2.5 cups of kibble and making up the rest of the 4 cups with meat. He did well. I also feed the kibble first before the meat. I found my dogs would skip the kibble and beg for more meat.
I am a believer in it. QC has it better than I do out west. The less desired cows out her go for higher prices! and to be honest I like the deer meat better than beef!
I can say this I will be one deer huntin fool come this fall!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:46 pm

portsider44 wrote:I just wonder for the average hunter, if you could get some benefit by feeding raw meat on a part time basis? Something like 2-4 times per week, geared around hunting times? Treating it more like a natural supplement to the kibble vs. just increasing the kibble to maintain bulk.

If so how much would you need to feed to on average per week to add value?

By all means! Most time people don't run there dog down enough to even give them the highest quility kibble. My oppinion would be that gear the dog up for a month before you are getting into the huinting season and then go to high meat diet..... JMO