feeding your dog

jkoehler · Post by **jkoehler** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:26 pm

I have heard that during hunting season when your dog is going to be active you should change dog food to the best and most expensive? Is this a good idea to be changing dog food or is that a myth about changing food being hard on a dog? I have used Pedagree my dogs whole life, should I switch?

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:51 pm

it depends on how much you are hunting your dogs. although better quality dogfoods often do cost a little more, just because a dog food is expensive does not make it better. the ingredients are what you need to look at...... you should try and get a food high in fat and protein preferably NOT with a bunch of junk filler for its primary contents. there are also other ways to supplement your existing food that would possibly be adequate for what your dog will need. it never hurts to "wean" your dog off of the old food and onto the new if you do change since a change in dog food can be rough on a dog's system.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:54 pm

It's not that you should feed the most expensive food, it's that you should feed the highest quality of food that you can afford during the time that the dog is going to be worked hard. For the person that does the weekend hunts, there isn't a need to make a change. For the person that is going to be running the dog hard during the season, the food should be upgraded. A high quality food is not high in grains (corn, soy, wheat) but high in meat meals. Since food is listed as the most ingredients used, foods listed with by-products and "meats" are often times listed 1st but actually have less meat in them than the meals because of the water that's still in them. Meat meals have had the water taken out. If you're going to change the food for hunting season, you should do it gradually and before you start hunting so that the dog has a chance to adjust to the change.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:24 pm

All good points made earlier.

Why not keep your dog on a good food all year, just feed less of it! Also, you need to check the derivative of the fat and protien in the foods. Corn is useless in ground form.

Hard working dogs need the fat content, but it gets rancid fast, which makes it hard for companies to use. You could add your own in the form of oils or grease. Adding corn or Veg. oil to the the food will help greatly. Also, save all your cooking grease! Being Italian, here we are always sauteeing something! lol

Phil
REO

jkoehler · Post by **jkoehler** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:50 pm

So do you think Pedagree is a good product to use or should I switch. I believe the protein is 26% and 11% fat. I would also add that my dog is a little overweight so should I be worried about the fat content?

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:08 pm

I'm not familiar with the ingredients, and their website doesn't offer it, but I'm going to assume that the first 1 or 2 ingredients are going to be grain...probably corn. While corn is good for carbs, they don't need a whole lot of it. The stuff that they don't use is wasted and they don't get as much nutrients as they could be getting if on a quality food because the food is mainly grain. If your dog is overweight, I'd suggest cutting back on the food and/or getting some more exercise into the daily routine. I use Canidae. Go to the website ( www.canidae.com ) and look at the ingredients in the food and then compare it to what you have.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:11 am

There is alot to be said about dog foods. My advice is to choose one that is at least 24% Protien and 16% fat.
There was a past post about the Diamond products. This past summer I feed the 24/20 and the 30/20 both gave me everything with performance. The Negitive factor was the waste and the smell of this waste. Whew Whew!
Not knowing all of your names but there was a reply about "why change from high quility food to a less than fair food on the off season". I am with this guy, stay with the Good food and feed less of it.
Most all of the bigger name dog foods have different Caliber of feeds. It is wise to call the manufature and find out if the food is made the same way. If it is most times the change in food does not effect the dogs.
I feed Black Gold and has done so for over 2 years. I have had very good sucsess with the 26/18 24/20 30/20 and the Signiture Series 32/22. Pricing on the food has went up as anything else.
The Gal that asked about the Purina 11% fat and the dog is a little on the heavy side. I guess by feeding this food would be the base of a good weight loss program. One add thing I have noticed with a 30/20 or 32/20 with a 4 cup ration nightly each dog I feed lost fat and gained muscle. I know what your thinking that is what is to take place... well I was not running the dogs that hard. Light bird work and a run or two...
This is only my opinion but a dog that is used for hunting lets say two days a week should get a 26/18 food. A healthy dog is going to produce more for you because it will have the energy to keep going. Not to mention a health dog has less chance of injury.
Adding fat and other oils to foods is up to each person. I do have a rull of thumb... If I have to add something to the food the food is not doing what I am paying for.... That said I do after long days of guiding or hard workout give the dogs a hit of Nutra Cal or Kyro Syrup for other reasons....

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:43 am

According to the Pedigree web site,

http://www.pedigree.com/pedigree/usa/pr ... filter=dry,

All their dry dog foods have ground corn as their first ingredient.

That's bad. I would switch foods, but do so year-round as opposed to just during the hunt season.

Search the archives on this site and similar ones about dog foods. Canidae, Black Gold, Pro Plan, Sportsman's Pride, Eukanuba and others all have their fans. I've never heard of a pro that feeds Pedigree.

If you dog is over-weight, you need to feed her less and get her more exercise.

You can also search the archives for threads on conditioning. Just remember the formula "Conditioning = Exercise + Rest". Don't leave out the "Rest" part.

Best regards,

jkoehler · Post by **jkoehler** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:38 am

Wow, thanks for all the help, this really makes it easy to make my decsion. The poll that was done earlier on this website talked about the different brands of dog food and I noticed no one selected Pedagree so I figured it must not be a good source of dog food. I had no idea that corn was not a good product and the first ingredent in it.
Thanks

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:59 am

check out purina mills "exclusive" brand available only at feed stores and such. that is all i use for the dogs and they do well. you have your choice of adult, puppie or performance depending on the caloric needs of your dogs. no corn, and whole chickens or lambs used

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:31 pm

For years I fed one of the cheap dogfoods and the dogs did great. Several finished on the bench and several pointed in the field. I just didnt have the money to raise 5 kids and trial dogs on a single income. Corn was the first ingredient because it is an excellent natural cheap source of carbs that are needed by a dog. Are there better foods? Maybe, but they are expensive too. Find a food that your dog likes and does well on and you can afford and you should be OK. The harder you work your dog the more calories he needs and adding a tablespoon of cooking oil is an excellent way to raise the calories without changing foods. And its always fresh that way.

Good Luck,

Ezzy

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:41 pm

I have to disagree that "corn is useless in groung form"

once cooked, ground corn is 99% digestible and is a GOOD ingredient provided that it appears second or third on the ingredients list after a high quality meat MEAL(s).

Corn is also one of the best natural Omega 6 fatty acid sources and also provides essential amino acids and fiber. Carbs are required for energy and the function of the cental nervous system.

Post by **grant** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:50 pm

I built feeders for deer a while back. Whenever I would go fill the things, I'd have to pull the dogs out of the PVC feeding tubes. It was like a popcorn party of something. They loved it. This corn talk just made me think of that.....

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:43 pm

Oh, they do love it!

I really hate the years we have the corn fields around here...some of the dogs (especially Carver) think it's their all-you-can-eat field made just for them...on the cob or not! And, when my son plays "farms", he uses the corn for the birds and can't keep the dogs away from sneaking some from him. Although, they don't have corn in their diet, so maybe it's a "treat" to them?

Post by **pear** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:41 pm

I feed my dogs by the "weight chart" on the bag........My 2 bigger GSP's get 3 cups per day, and my smaller one gets 2 1/2 cups per day. I feed 1/2 of that in the morning and the other 1/2 in the evening. I have always heard that if you feed twice per day you will add weight even at the recommended feeding amounts. I have the 2 bigger ones (male and a female), at just the size and weight I want, however the smaller one (female) wants to stay chunky. All of them get worked (roaded) regularly and have great muscle tone, and stamina. Any ideas on this??............Thanks in advance, "pear"

Katies Dad · Post by **Katies Dad** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:14 pm

Has anybody ever used diamond? http://www.diamondpet.com/ I like the way their large breed puppy and large breed adult look! I think i need to switch foods after reading and learning about pedigree!

Post by **pear** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:22 pm

We just bought 2 skids of Diamond Premium, we like it real well, here !!!

Katies Dad · Post by **Katies Dad** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:09 pm

about how much does it go for a bag?

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:11 pm

I have tried the premium and now on the professional, cant seem to get good stools out of either.

Man I wish my aim was better! Cant wait to get back to feeding raw meat again!

Phil
REO

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:21 pm

Here 's 2 websites about dog food naturapet and the the pet center. naturapet you can compare ingredients to other dog food, the pet center has a lot of articles about food and other things. CORN if you ate it everyday what do you think would happen. My doctor says stay away from it. She said whole grains are better for me. Brown rice ,whole wheat, no starches corn, potatos, white rice, flour. I give my dogs supplements, table scrapes (if there not to spicey)chicken soup, left over roast with veggeies.I don't think you can get all a dog needs out of a bag no matter how much that bag cost.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:32 pm

QC
When feeding Raw meat how do you ration this out? What is to much? If that is possible..... is it feed as a supliment or as base food source?

Katies Dad · Post by **Katies Dad** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:52 pm

Qc I have heard that about the stools with anything that has alot of protein in it

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:52 pm

QC innova has a new dry you feed with raw diets, 42% protein 18% fats no grains. An Atkins diet for dogs I guess.

google RAW or BARF dog food lots of stuffs to read about feeding raw. I love google

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:52 pm

Billy,

I agree with you! The sales pitches on all these dog food lables really have the consumer snowed!

Dogs definetly need more than a bag of food can offer!

Remember, protien in not the big need here, Fat is. I would rather have a food with higher fat than protien, but that is impossible to do. The protien usually serves as a preservative for the fat.

Dogs and people need creatine, found in raw meat. I usually feed two thirds meat to one third kibble. I usually add oil as well, deer meat is rather lean. Depends on what I can find.

Phil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:04 am

"""Dogs definetly need more than a bag of food can offer!""" Boys I am not buying this.... I add nothing to any of the dishes that pass through the kennels here. Know QC I am going to take you up on this and the try 2 parts raw meat and 1 part bag food with one of the dogs..... One of the reasons I don't buy it is None of my dogs have ever acted like they could use something else. Besides doing a little trialing, I guide for the biggest bird farm in the state. I have done for 9-10 years know and have had a few different bags around the kennel never less than 18% fat. 4-5 hours a day 3-6 day a week. Most times dogs last and handler runs out... So that is Y I believe that a good quility bag of food is made. I know the first dogs ate straight meat and did well but as always man has had a hand in it. How many heat cycles a year does a coyote have? 1 Your dogs 2 maybe 3 man played a part there too.
One key is that a dog eats after a hard work out or all the love or money is not going to aid the dog. I am sure Raw meat will be a big hit here. I will give aanything a try......

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:11 am

From some reading in the past I read about the "Myth of Protien" The reading was about hurting the kidneys in the dog that is overloaded with Protien. Sorry not real sharp on it, was some time ago when I read it. One factor in the test was that test only have been done of lab Rats..... The reading also concluded that an aging older dog would benifit from a high protien diet less fat. I'm sorry to say as the dogs age around here stay on the same feed the year old dog gets.
???????

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:49 am

TAK,

I miss stated, not all dogs need better food. Remember, I work my dogs hard here. They get roaded 4 to 5 miles three times a week. Hunted 5 days a week in season, and also field trialed. Regular bagged food doesnt cut it for them. At the end of a seaosn they look like heck!

Go read what the Sled dog men feed. They have the hardest working dog in the BIZ in my opinion. This is where I get alot of my info from. As well as from a strength trainer and Gayla (Vet). Im not saying its for everyone, just the hard working dogs.

THe kidney problem from protien derives from the usage of the wrong protiens. Like corn!

Let me knwo what you tink of the new diet, I am interested

Phil

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:20 am

Regarding Corn in Dog Food,

Can someone please explain to me or point me in the right direction of some facts regarding corn in dog food, and it's negative affects.

As far as the sled dog world goes, Eagle pack "Power" is probably the most popular feed, and it has Corn in it :roll:

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:39 pm

Bill Crosby said it best on one of is comedy album. He gave is kids cake for breadfast because it had eggs, flour, and milk in it. The ingredients are there, but how it was process and what was add change the nutrition of the food. So if the food is process correctly and added in the right amounts you have a healthy dog food for most dogs. I just like to add fresh food because it's not all process. I don't eat all process food it won't be healthy for me how can it be for my dogs.

Eagle pack uses grounded corn, and that process grounds the whole kernel so you get all the nutrition from the corn. Most companies use a different process for they're corn (corn gulten meal, corn flour, etc.) My question about corn is how healthy is it to use everyday as a major ingredient. Do you know any major althletes who uses corn as they're major ingredients (runners, football players,etc.)

Just my opinion I have no facts about corn.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:22 pm

When talking Corn in our Football players and athletes at that.... Have you ever saw the Nebraska Corn Huskers! Them boys are Corn Feed! See the size of them BOY"S!

Dogs are much different than us. I can't break it down but I have been told many times by Vet's Hunters and jsut people that added table fair to a dogs diet is to RICH?
Our Beef has on the lable CORN FEED! It even cost more!

All aside I am going to try me some Raw meat with one on the string and see if I can improve...... an improvement would even be cost!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:50 pm

Well said Tak

"Dogs are much different than us"

If you ate as much fat as a dog does, do wouldn't live to see your 40th birthday.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:18 pm

Yes cows are corn feed they have two stomach's next time you eat corn see what pass thru you, are you getting all the nutrition from your corn. You are a omnivore so is your dog. We both need some plants in are diets, but why corn? Can they process it? Or can they process other veggies easier?( brown rice ,whole wheat,rolled oats, less starches.) Or is it a price issue with dog food companies? Cows process the corn we feed them and we eat them maybe that's better than us processing the corn that's my point. But I'm not a vet or doctor I'm a fifty year old man who's over weight and has to watch what I eat , and corn is not in my diet anymore because it's not good for me because I store it as fat and it does'nt go to my muscle. Do my dogs do the same maybe I don't know. Just my opinion I could be wrong.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:54 pm

I am going to Re-load on this and researce a little more. I don't want to sound like Corn is a save all in a food, but I believe there is some benefits with it as the other grains and Rices you said. I only came out and said that with the foods I have feed I have never been lacking or the dogs for that matter. I will say my dogs get used and used hard.
With Raw meat what are the stools like? That would be a factor for me also. I have a septic system in the kennel but believe me it is much easier to scoop up if it is not one end to the other.
By the way that was another thing that I got out of the Diamons dog food. One end to the other!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:24 pm

You're Right llewgor, Eagle uses whole corn that is ground finely, and cooked. Because it is ground and cooked it is easily processed, and can't be compared to when you and I eat whole kernels(we all know what that looks like

)

TAK trying to do some research as well...hard to find good info...

I was able to come up with this though...it's taken from Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition, By Hand, Thatcher, Remillard and Roudebush. Pub, Mark Morris Institute 2000.

"There have been only six confirmed cases of allergy to corn in dogs reported in the veterinary literature out of 253 total cases." "Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains. Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for healthy skin. Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber. In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies. A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn."

"Several reports (3) indicate that dogs and cats readily digest starches in commercial pet foods. In studies, dogs were fed foods in which 30 to 57% of the food came from extruded corn, barley, rice or oats. The starch was nearly 100% digested in the small intestine."

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:32 pm

Kevin
the pet center website talks about that book. I would like to see something new about corn too because it's in so many dog food. Part of the problem for me is that most vets. that work on dog food also work for a dog food company, or have they're own dog food they are trying to sell. It's like what is the best diet for us, well there's a lot out there Atkins,weightwatch,LA diet all are different, and what might work for you won't for me. A GSP may need a different diet than a Lab.

TAK
Welcome to the website, it's good to hear you Utes are out there chasing birds, I was born in Payson and have family in Goshen, Price, well all over Utah. :usa2:

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:40 pm

Whole ground corn is used in dog food. The grinding is done so it will incorprate into a pellet or a flake. The meal is heated going through the pellet mill or extruder but isn't cooked in the normal process. It is not a major source of protien as it only runs around 9 % at best. It is used because it is an excellent source of carbs and has many other amino acids in it too.

Cows have four stomachs which allows them to utilize rough such as grass and hay. Hogs have one stomach like we and our dogs and they utilize grains like corn very well. The advantage of corn is it is good, well balanced, plentiful, palatible, and cheap.

Dogs that need a lot of energy do well when the carbs and fat levels are high and corn is a major player in that field.

Ezzy

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:15 pm

Billy, in regards as to why so many manufacturers use corn in their products:

Canine and Feline Nutrition, on page 175, lists substances that provide protein… beef, chicken, eggs, fish, lamb and meat by-products. Meat by-products are a great source of protein for a meat eating animal.

Therefore, for our diet to contain a wide spectrum of amino acids, we will choose to have it contain the best source of protein for mammals. . . eggs, or more precisely the egg whites. This substance has a wide amino acid profile and is highly digestible. In fact, egg white is considered a standard against which other protein sources are measured. Other really good choices would be meat, poultry or fish.

So for dogs and cats... our custom diet will contain vitamins and minerals, some grain for readily available energy, a proper amount and ratio of fat sources, and as a foundation,
a high quality MEAT source.

Pet food manufacturers know very well how to make a great diet just like the one we put together. The problem is that it would be expensive to produce, especially if eggs and beef and fish were in it. And to be competitive with other pet food producers, the price of the food dictates what the foundation (primary ingredients) of the diet will be.

ENTER CORN... it's cheap, takes up lots of room in the bag of food and in the pet's stomach so it will "fill ‘em up", it's a good carbohydrate source so the pet will have some energy, it has a few amino acids in it so the corn will contribute to the protein totals on the guaranteed analysis list, and there's a cheap and steady supply of corn. So the pet food manufacturer makes a corn diet, adds some "meat and bone meal" (which has been cooked at least twice before it gets in the bag and may contain too much calcium) to "complete the amino acid profile" and adds a few other calculated substances so that COMPLETE AND BALANCED can be stamped prominently on the pet food label.

Throughout each of the nutrition texts referred to in this article, the authors repeatedly stress the importance of high quality, nutrient dense, and highly digestible pet food products. Yes, these products will cost the consumer more than the generic brands.

Dogs are livelier and healthier when meat, poultry, lamb and fish are the foundation of their diets. In other words, we should choose to feed them as the meat eaters they are and denounce the senseless practice of feeding them as if they were herbivores simply because that would be cheaper to do.

According to Case, Carey and Hirakawa in Canine and Feline Nutrition, page 174,

"In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins. The protein in grains is not as balanced or available as the protein in high-quality animal sources…"
By high-quality they are referring to meat, poultry and fish products that are derived mainly from muscle and organ tissue rather than "meat and bone meals". Some types of animal-derived meals are not considered to be high quality because of the processing they undergo.

Like TAK and Kevin, I'm looking for the advantages of corn in the diet...I don't feed corn in my dogs diet...maybe I'll learn something, maybe not. It is hard to find info that isn't product sponsored or just the opinions of someone.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:24 pm

Born and Raised in Helper Utah North of Price give me a name and lets see where it takes us!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:46 pm

Who can you trust in the pet food industry... I know, it's hard when companies that provide the information are also the ones looking for your business...that's why I try and find out for myself.

CSB, I take it you have Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, looks like an interesting read, only problem is it sells for $120.

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:37 pm

It is interesting to read...lots of info to think about.

Another good book for nutrition is Canine & Feline Nutrition: A Resource for Companion Animal Professionals by Linda Post. I think you can get hers on Amazon for around $60 or $65.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:29 am

""""Two of the top three ingredients in pet foods, particularly dry foods, are almost always some form of grain products. Pedigree Performance Food for Dogs lists Ground Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, and Corn Gluten Meal as its top three ingredients. 9 Lives Crunchy Meals for cats lists Ground Yellow Corn, Corn Gluten Meal, and Poultry By-Product Meal as its first three ingredients. Since cats are true carnivores -- they must eat meat to fulfill certain physiological needs -- one may wonder why we are feeding a corn-based product to them. The answer is that corn is a much cheaper "energy source" than meat.""""""""
http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm

Still searching!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:44 am

Ohh my H E double hockey sticks! Is there a person/company that can do a test and put the answers as yes it is good or no it is not..... I have tryed to shy away from business promoting there food and try to find studys, researce and hard facts.... If anyone has a link to one that I could not find pass it on. It is a guy in a snowy place becasue he runs sled dogs "The Wold Pack" that what he called his team! he comparaired foods on his site. I read it some time ago but can't find it again.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:27 am

TAK Try sled dog central. I don't know if his there, but they have a lot of links to dog food. A lot of raw food diets are there also.

markm · Post by **markm** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:09 pm

Here is a link to an article that seems to offer some pretty good common sense advice.

http://www.dog.com/vet/nutrition/01.html

I think some times we overthink things in wanting what's best for a our four legged buddies!

Gun Dog Forum

feeding your dog

feeding your dog

Foods

How Much........How Often??

Diamond

Raw meat to Dry bag food......

Food