Food Rotation Question

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MNTrout68
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Food Rotation Question

Post by MNTrout68 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:52 pm

I have a 3yo GSP in good health, very active, hunts, etc.

The problem is he goes through periods of turning up his nose at his kibble. I am currently feeding Nutrisource Performance and I have been very happy with the results. Prior to that, on the recommendation of my vet, I was feeding Victor High Energy. He responded really well to that too. The issue with Victor was just that he started complaining about it after a year or so - wouldn't eat it, flipped the bowl, etc. He would eventually eat when he got hungry enough, but I don't really want a ticked off, hungry GSP in my house if I can help it. So we switched to Nutrisource and he loved it. (Tried the Super Performance first, but it was a little "hot" for him so we downshifted to Performance.) Now after about 18 months on Nutrisource, he's doing the same thing - refusing to eat, pawing the bowl, etc. We mixed in a different kibble for a while, and we've used lamb jerky sprinkles and freeze dried raw bits. Those all work for a while, but eventually he gets sick of it.

So here's the question - do you think if I just went back to Victor he'd eat it again because it's different? How often do you rotate food? I don't really want to make a big change right now because a) I still have about 25lbs of Nutrisource left and b) it's in the middle of hunting season so I don't want to chance any tolerance/gut issues right now. Thanks!

birddogger2
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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:10 pm

My dogs are in outside kennels and on self feeders. We do not do inside dogs. Never have...never will. My dogs have been eating the same brand and formula for several years now. It is good quality and satisfies all their needs. If they don't want to eat it...they don't, but that is their choice. If they don't eat it...they go hungry.

They eat it just fine. If a dog flat refuses to eat...there is a medical problem causing it and I do what is necessary to correct any medical issues.

I do occasionally give them table scraps, stale bread and such, and my wife(the spoiler) give them Goldfish crackers and other such treats somewhat more often, but they eat kibble for the most part.

I suspect that if you changed brands back, the dog would eat it again.

I do question one aspect of your situation. You said you don't want to deal with a ticked off hungry GSP in the house. I say- SO...DON'T. Your house...your rules.

If the dog is acting out... I suggest you put it in its kennel(inside or outside) and leave it there until it modifies its own behavior. Both dogfoods you mentioned are high quality and the dog should eat either one.

Your dog...your call.

RayG

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by shags » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:38 pm

It's easy to just skip a meal. A hungry dog will eat what's in front of him. That said, it's assuming the dog is healthy and acting fine otherwise. IME keeping dogs just a little bit hungry keeps them from getting picky, and it also lets me know if they don't eat a meal, there's something wrong.

Why worry about a pissed off hungry dog in the house? Better letting him worry about what happens when he pisses *you* off.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by averageguy » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:59 pm

My current dog and I travel around hunting alot. He can be a poor eater just when he needs to eat the most and it causes me alot of frustration and angst. The standard advice to teach a dog to eat properly is to set its food down and give 10-15 minutes to eat it and then take away any uneaten food. The dog will learn to eat quickly is the general case outcome. It is the approach I plan to use with this dog and see if we can improve on our current situation.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by birddogger2 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:02 pm

averageguy-

Not to send this thread sideways, but I have a suggestion for a travelling hunting dog.

When I was hunting virtually every other day...all day with one dog, he would get so tired that he simply would not eat. At home, I mixed his kibble with a bit of water and a quarter to a half pound of cubed up beef fat. This loss of appetite was especially true on a multi day trip. I found that mixing the kibble with warm water both helped entice the dog to eat, even though he was worn out and, almost as important...the warm water softened the kibble and prevented the dog from passing blood in his stool on the third or fourth day. A half can of canned dog food with the most fat I could find also helped keep his appetite and energy up.

Sorry for the hijack.

RayG

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by averageguy » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:38 am

Ray G, Much Appreciated.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by JONOV » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:38 am

birddogger2 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:02 pm
averageguy-

Not to send this thread sideways, but I have a suggestion for a travelling hunting dog.

When I was hunting virtually every other day...all day with one dog, he would get so tired that he simply would not eat. At home, I mixed his kibble with a bit of water and a quarter to a half pound of cubed up beef fat. This loss of appetite was especially true on a multi day trip. I found that mixing the kibble with warm water both helped entice the dog to eat, even though he was worn out and, almost as important...the warm water softened the kibble and prevented the dog from passing blood in his stool on the third or fourth day. A half can of canned dog food with the most fat I could find also helped keep his appetite and energy up.

Sorry for the hijack.

RayG
Ray, I did the same thing albeit by accident. Previous long trips ended with Gus looking like a Poster for Cruelty prevention. This time, he had been getting wet food in his real food, just a little bit, for the two weeks prior. Why? Because I had a truly underweight foster GWP that needed extra calories, and if you put wet food in one bowl but not the others you have issues if you don't feed in individual kennel runs (which I don't have.) So, the little bit of wet food meant he left for the trip three pounds heavier than normal, and wet food on the trip meant he only lost 5 instead of 10, coming back 2 lbs under his typical fighting weight.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by JONOV » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:05 am

MNTrout68 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:52 pm
I have a 3yo GSP in good health, very active, hunts, etc.

The problem is he goes through periods of turning up his nose at his kibble. I am currently feeding Nutrisource Performance and I have been very happy with the results. Prior to that, on the recommendation of my vet, I was feeding Victor High Energy. He responded really well to that too. The issue with Victor was just that he started complaining about it after a year or so - wouldn't eat it, flipped the bowl, etc. He would eventually eat when he got hungry enough, but I don't really want a ticked off, hungry GSP in my house if I can help it. So we switched to Nutrisource and he loved it. (Tried the Super Performance first, but it was a little "hot" for him so we downshifted to Performance.) Now after about 18 months on Nutrisource, he's doing the same thing - refusing to eat, pawing the bowl, etc. We mixed in a different kibble for a while, and we've used lamb jerky sprinkles and freeze dried raw bits. Those all work for a while, but eventually he gets sick of it.

So here's the question - do you think if I just went back to Victor he'd eat it again because it's different? How often do you rotate food? I don't really want to make a big change right now because a) I still have about 25lbs of Nutrisource left and b) it's in the middle of hunting season so I don't want to chance any tolerance/gut issues right now. Thanks!
I think it would.

I don't think it makes any difference in terms of health or longevity of the dog. But I know if I bring back a different or slightly different recipe the dogs really prefer it. Think about this: if you visit another dog's house and there's food in the bowl the dogs always want the "Different" food, or the cats food. For most dogs, we as humans are more picky about their diets than they are. We stress and stress then the dog annihalates a half eaten McDonalds meal that some litterbug left in the parking lot, paper bag, fries, sauce, nuggets and all, and the dog is fine. We research til our eyes turn red obsessing about this ingredient or if Pur-eukan-iams should have 1% more Calcium, then the dog eats a pinecone and a roadkilled squirrel-pancake and a cockroach he found on the deck and is no worse for wear.

I typically feed Purina 30/20 but if the local store is out, I pick up a different Pro Plan formulation and don't think anything of it.

I like Purina foods for a few reasons but there are at least a dozen brands that I would have no problem feeding my dog, although some that I won't because I don't see the value-add for the food.

You also need to consider if your dog does have a sensitive stomach. My friend has a dog that's on a very strict diet because she develops ulcers and things get really vomity, and very expensive (vet bills) if he doesn't. He feeds a higher end dog food ($60/35lb bag or more) because he isn't messing with success.

My experience with 14 plus coming into my home and switched immediately is that they may have a day of loose stools or gas.

Just don't do what the good samaritan did with the last GWP Puppy that was undernourished and give her three cans of wet food before giving her to my wife for a 2 hour ride home. What a mess.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by Steve007 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:55 am

I don't see where you've got a problem. You only have one dog, so let him eat what he wants. Clearly, switching immediately 100% is a terrible idea for obvious reasons, but just buy an extra bag of something else and start switching over on a percentage basis slowly. When you get to the point of 90% of new food, stay there until you use up the remainder of the old food that you've got.

For that matter, there's nothing wrong with mixing some grated cheese into his food to motivate him to eat the food he's getting. I have two plastic bins where I keep regular food -- NutriSource high-performance -- and a smaller one where I keep EN from the vet in the event of digestive problems. Don't use it much, thank goodness, but it's there.

There are lots of quality foods from major manufacturers that are perfectly suitable. Switching from one to another (slowly) every few years if that's what the dog wants is perfectly fine.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by averageguy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:05 am

I have resorted to quite a few different options to get adequate food in my dog while hunting away from home. It all involves bribing him to eat with something more interesting than his standard Pro Plan 30/20 dry feed fare. Which means a loosened stool is not far behind (pun intended). I recently had excellent results addressing that problem using Purina FortiFlora product during those periods.

I would love to have a chow hound but I don't. Changing up my dog's feed flash cut while on the road to get him to eat is how it is, so I do. I use Inukshuk 32/32 to get the highest calorie count per cup I can get in him while he is under maximum stress out on the road. Mix in some ground venison, beef or Pro One canned dog food to make it more interesting. I will heat it up the micro wave in the hotel room and then mix it in. Have also used some National brand energy pak supplement over the top to add more calories. Have used Dyne at times as well. Nothing works always with this dog and so I am prepared to switch things up and do.

All future puppies I raise will be trained to eat immediately using the drill I posted earlier in the thread. In my defense this dog ate immediately for the first 1.5 years but when his kennel mate in the run beside him passed away his eating dropped off immediately and has been much more sporadic since. Lots of folks say they will eat when they get hungry and that is likely correct and acceptable while at home, but exhausted dogs hunting daily out on the road need to eat right now ...
Last edited by averageguy on Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by Meller » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:23 am

Anyone having trouble with their dog not eating on the road; I would like to recommend that they look into Satin Balls, worked good for my dogs, while hunting five or more hours a day on the road, kept their energy up, and helped them eat a little of their kibble too.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by cjhills » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:53 am

When you run your dogs to the point of exhaustion that all they need is sleep you are going to have eating issues. Force feeding them will cause more health issues. Bloody diarrhea being one. they need rest before they eat. Sometimes that will mean feeding them in the night and starting late in the morning. Remember the dogs are everything on a hunting trip.
I have always tried to breed dogs that are good eaters and train my puppies from the day they start on solid food by feeding them in a group so they learn to eat fast. They gobble their food. That is why I always feed puppy food and why PPP Performance has went to smaller kibbles. Some clients have a problem with this and slow the dogs eating.
On the road I generally eat breakfast some where and get extra bacon and sometimes bacon grease for the dogs. But, hard hunting dogs will need a day off occasionally. When they get home they sleep for two days and come out only to go to the bath room.
I have never over fed my dogs by following directions on the bag no matter the brand. In every case I have had to feed more than the directions said.
Slow eating dog are a real issue and I think changing food occasionally if it works would be a good way to go. I also have never had a food change issue
I just cut down the amount of food for a day or two. Most foods have the same ingredients......Cj

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by JONOV » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:57 am

Meller wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:23 am
Anyone having trouble with their dog not eating on the road; I would like to recommend that they look into Satin Balls, worked good for my dogs, while hunting five or more hours a day on the road, kept their energy up, and helped them eat a little of their kibble too.
I just use Purina Wet Food. it's under $2 a can, and half a can mixed with 4 cups of kibble goes a long way.

I've used Satin Balls for a truly malnourished dog and it worked.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by JONOV » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:03 am

cjhills wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:53 am

I have always tried to breed dogs that are good eaters and train my puppies from the day they start on solid food by feeding them in a group so they learn to eat fast. They gobble their food. That is why I always feed puppy food and why PPP Performance has went to smaller kibbles. Some clients have a problem with this and slow the dogs eating.
CJ, how much of fast-eating is environmental in your opinion? I ask this based on a handful of observations.

1) Even my families second Golden Retriever, never known as a breed to leave food around, hardly touched his kibble the first two or three days at our house (he came to us at 6 years old.) Later we learned he may have been supplementing the kibble by countersurfing whole sticks of butter.

2) I've seen the same thing in some foster dogs, even (especially) underweight ones.

3) My dog was a slow eater, a grazer. The last month and a half, he hasn't been, because I've been dogsitting and fostering a handful of dogs that require food be put down, eaten, then taken up. As a puppy, he was a voracious eater, but also surrounded by littermates.

4) A friend's lab/GSP cross won't eat much at hunting camp, til he asks me to put my dog on a leash and sit five feet away (competition.)

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by shags » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:37 am

Wet cat food is great for tempting dogs to eat. I buy the little teeny cans for on the road, mixed with regular kibble and warm water. Using the small cans eliminates the need to carry around stinkin' half cans.

The various vet clinics I've worked in over the years use wet cat food to tempt sick debilitated dogs to eat. Little goes a long way.

Jonov, I have one food sucker-downer, one very prissy dainty eater (one kibble at a time :roll: ) and one that eats at a moderate rate. All raised the same way from puppyhood right here. As far as I know, all three were started on solid food in the usual way, one large pan to accommodate the litter. The dainty eater stops when he's had enough, but the other two would eat until they explode.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by cjhills » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:38 pm

JONOV wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:03 am
cjhills wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:53 am

I have always tried to breed dogs that are good eaters and train my puppies from the day they start on solid food by feeding them in a group so they learn to eat fast. They gobble their food. That is why I always feed puppy food and why PPP Performance has went to smaller kibbles. Some clients have a problem with this and slow the dogs eating.
CJ, how much of fast-eating is environmental in your opinion? I ask this based on a handful of observations.

1) Even my families second Golden Retriever, never known as a breed to leave food around, hardly touched his kibble the first two or three days at our house (he came to us at 6 years old.) Later we learned he may have been supplementing the kibble by countersurfing whole sticks of butter.

2) I've seen the same thing in some foster dogs, even (especially) underweight ones.

3) My dog was a slow eater, a grazer. The last month and a half, he hasn't been, because I've been dogsitting and fostering a handful of dogs that require food be put down, eaten, then taken up. As a puppy, he was a voracious eater, but also surrounded by littermates.

4) A friend's lab/GSP cross won't eat much at hunting camp, til he asks me to put my dog on a leash and sit five feet away (competition.)
Jonov:
I really have no idea how much is environmental. I think very little. I know fast eating is genetic and try to breed fast eaters. That being said I would not pass up a quality dog because it ate to slow. Since all puppies to not inherit the same genetics all in a litter will not be gobblers. So for some it is likely learned maybe by taking the food away in a short time. I have two 5 months female puppies right now, from the same litter and raised together. One eats and the other slow. The slow eater carries a bit more weight than the faster pup, So maybe she gets more from her food.
In any event, none of this helps the OP. If it works to change the food occasionally go for it.
I do not like trying to force a worn out dog to eat. Much better to let them sleep until they are ready. Mostly they will vomit what they eat any way
I think that is natures way of protecting them....Cj

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by averageguy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:31 pm

cjhills wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:38 pm
I do not like trying to force a worn out dog to eat. Much better to let them sleep until they are ready. Mostly they will vomit what they eat any way
I think that is natures way of protecting them....Cj
Not sure how a person could even force a dog to eat. Bribing a dog to eat is another thing entirely, as well as feeding higher/richer calories when the dog's work requires it. My dog has never puked up his meal on the road. Most often we have enough time/distance while I clean birds at the end of the day and between where we are hunting and the motel that the dog has been resting an hour or more in his dog box on the drive.

My purpose in posting was that I frequently flash change my dog's diet while hunting on the road and we get through it just fine. When stool loosens I use the Purina product I also posted, both of which I assume/hope are helpful to the OP's question as to whether it is a big deal to change a dog's diet in order to get it to eat.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:05 am

My deceased setter was a royal pain to get to eat when we were on long hard hunting excursions. Admittedly it drove me crazy. I did most of all of what was already suggested and then some. At home she was fine but....??
What I haven't tried is the cat food idea!! Thanks Shags!
On the flip side - and not to question what works for each individual situation out there - I get dogs here that are finicky eaters on a regular occurence.
Most often it stems from free-feeding at home or pups/dogs that have trained their owners. My issue is that dogs are here to learn and work. They need the dietary basics to serve both. When a dog isn't eating properly both are compromised. As such, I have a stringent feeding regimen.
They get 10 minutes to eat in the morning and 10 minutes at night. If they are still picky, I only feed them at night after a good run - they get 10 minutes. Most often it takes 3-5 days to align their eating habits BUT this is a different issue than one of a dog that is run hard and long for X days in succession. In this case, "You gotta do what you gotta do to keep them healthy and strong."
My friend's pointer would return from the prairies looking like an anatomical manikin! The only thing that worked for this hunting machine was Royal Canine Gastro-intestinal High Energy. Only available at Vets up here. It wasn't cheap but....it helped noticeably. So now we transition all our dogs to it just for the extra-demanding hunts.
Still, I have to try the canned cat food!
As a side-bar, when your dogs are eating on a schedule it's also easier to clean up after them - like clock-work! :wink:
Admittedly, it's disgusting to watch my current 2 dogs eat! They inhale their food. It's still better than the finicky eater.

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Re: Food Rotation Question

Post by marysburg » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:28 pm

I'm with Shags, those teeny cans of cat food are irresistible for dogs and the more it stinks, the better they like it (fish dinner is best). We feed Nutrisource Super Performance to four dogs, and sometimes on the road they get too keyed up to eat. I split one of those little cans 4 ways and mix it in with the kibble and maybe a little water. Works every time.

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