Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

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isonychia
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Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by isonychia » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:29 pm

When my first brittany was diagnosed with mitral valve insufficiency last year at the age of 7 I started to wonder about how we can prevent early heart disease in brittanies through better breeding. Look at the king Charles spaniel for motivation if you must. Nobody wants to come out and post a pedigree and say "HEY this is the pedigree my dog has and he has heart disease." Then again, we can't really wait until a dog is 8 to start his breeding career. There are some people that believe some lines of Brittany's throw bad valves, I am not the only one who has experienced this (I also don't know if my case was genetic).

If breeding programs are to better the breed, can't more be done to prevent certain diseases? I mean we have extensive pedigrees to work from, why just rely on OFA good, EYEs good, Heart good at 2 years old, wins tests, let's breed! Surly we can suck it up and start a pedigree/disease database at this point for all breeds, it is the era of big data, incorporating this into some veterinary database structure seems easy enough.

Imagine the dogs we could have given modern technology and advances in data science. Just saying.

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ezzy333
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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:31 pm

I doubt if many would argue against more testing for heart disease if it was more common. But out of thousands I have dealt with or that I know about I can recall two individuals that had a problem. Just not sure that qualifies as a breed problem.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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isonychia
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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by isonychia » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:40 am

I am not talking about testing I am talking about a health database to tag along pedigrees managed by the AKC or AVMA for all breeds as a prevention and early detection platform. Lots of big lines have common amcestry and that can happen fast. There literally is no good reason not to have something like this in today's world. Then again I am a data analyst so I am biased.

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by cjhills » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:18 pm

How would this data base be established and without testing how would you know anything. How would you know if what the dog has was genetic and if so what are the chances of passing it on. maybe I am missing something. It seems like it would cause more problems than it would cure.
I had a puppy that had a liver shunt. I think this is almost unheard of in my breed. At least I had never heard of it. The buyer never told me and spent a large amount to have it fixed. I dida repeat of that breeding before i found out. It was her 4th litter 43 total puppies. the vet told theowner it comes from the mother and she should not be bred again. To date none of her other puppies have had it. Would we eliminate her.Tell me how It would Work......Cj

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by isonychia » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:08 pm

cjhills wrote:How would this data base be established and without testing how would you know anything. How would you know if what the dog has was genetic and if so what are the chances of passing it on. maybe I am missing something. It seems like it would cause more problems than it would cure.
I had a puppy that had a liver shunt. I think this is almost unheard of in my breed. At least I had never heard of it. The buyer never told me and spent a large amount to have it fixed. I dida repeat of that breeding before i found out. It was her 4th litter 43 total puppies. the vet told theowner it comes from the mother and she should not be bred again. To date none of her other puppies have had it. Would we eliminate her.Tell me how It would Work......Cj
It would be reported by veterinarians on discovery. It would look like decades of data later, seeing that an odd pup with a liver shunt does not necessarily mean a genetic issue or that with whatever % confidence it does. In the beginning, it would be more about seeing early patterns and stopping them. One dog wouldn't be a pattern. Later on it could help determine when a mutation or recessive trait pops up and that one anomaly IS important and to nip it in the bud.

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by Bowguy » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:26 am

You can go lots through beeeding. This is the reason for line breeding, inbreeding and outcrossing. Breeding should not be “just because he n I have good dogs”.
When you line breed for instance (line breeding and inbreeding are only a degre) you breed similar dogs bloodline wise to enhance/set traits. You do this by stacking genes. I’d say the dog had a bad heart, you might never notice it but maybe every few generations. It might be a recessive gene. So if both these dogs has recessive genes for this heart issue, they were bred, the genes stacked now it’s a dominant trait and a real problem. It’s like to be passed down as now that dog/dogs are “producers” of those issues. Those dogs should never be bred again. But back to the recessive gene. If the dog has problems it may not be a dog you breed anyway if you know this or be very careful who you breed to. I just don’t think I’d spin the wheel on this.
So you say this is the reason you want outcrosses. Idk if you breed two totally unrelated dogs you wind up w a mixed litter. You’re chances of getting exactly what you want are bad and percentages are bad, producing power is non existent. . Outcrosses should only be done to introduce things into a breeding program needed. Say more foot, nose, etc.
For these reasons and these reasons only a reputable breeder w sound dogs is a great choice. He culled Dogs, he’s not bred in (or bred out) issues. He’s spent lots of money doing so. It’s a return on his investment a higher pup fee in this instance. Not a price simply because he bred two German shorthairs for instance. Fellows in my club ask 1500 for a pup. There’s no history of the dogs, nothing attempted in breeding (except to get your 1500), the guys really don’t know what they don’t know.
Anything can be bred in or out of a dog. Look to the Irish setter folks. Through improper breeding they bred out hunt. Look at dif strains which is something no one talks about. You can have similar dogs as someone else behind your dogs and if recently you’ve started to breed a certain style pup you can develop a strain of that blood that’s different characteristically.
If the dog has a bad heart, to me that a big reason not to breed it. It’s not bettering a breed to do so. That’s should be a very big consideration when choosing dogs.

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:28 pm

Bowguy wrote:You can go lots through beeeding. This is the reason for line breeding, inbreeding and outcrossing. Breeding should not be “just because he n I have good dogs”.
When you line breed for instance (line breeding and inbreeding are only a degre) you breed similar dogs bloodline wise to enhance/set traits. You do this by stacking genes. I’d say the dog had a bad heart, you might never notice it but maybe every few generations. It might be a recessive gene. So if both these dogs has recessive genes for this heart issue, they were bred, the genes stacked now it’s a dominant trait and a real problem. It’s like to be passed down as now that dog/dogs are “producers” of those issues. Those dogs should never be bred again. But back to the recessive gene. If the dog has problems it may not be a dog you breed anyway if you know this or be very careful who you breed to. I just don’t think I’d spin the wheel on this.
So you say this is the reason you want outcrosses. Idk if you breed two totally unrelated dogs you wind up w a mixed litter. You’re chances of getting exactly what you want are bad and percentages are bad, producing power is non existent. . Outcrosses should only be done to introduce things into a breeding program needed. Say more foot, nose, etc.
For these reasons and these reasons only a reputable breeder w sound dogs is a great choice. He culled Dogs, he’s not bred in (or bred out) issues. He’s spent lots of money doing so. It’s a return on his investment a higher pup fee in this instance. Not a price simply because he bred two German shorthairs for instance. Fellows in my club ask 1500 for a pup. There’s no history of the dogs, nothing attempted in breeding (except to get your 1500), the guys really don’t know what they don’t know.
Anything can be bred in or out of a dog. Look to the Irish setter folks. Through improper breeding they bred out hunt. Look at dif strains which is something no one talks about. You can have similar dogs as someone else behind your dogs and if recently you’ve started to breed a certain style pup you can develop a strain of that blood that’s different characteristically.
If the dog has a bad heart, to me that a big reason not to breed it. It’s not bettering a breed to do so. That’s should be a very big consideration when choosing dogs.
Bowguy:
I am going to try to maintain my self control on this.
I do not know where you get your information. it sounds like the same breeders I got mine from. Any thing can not be bred in or out of a dog.
It sounded great when they were selling me dogs. Not so great when I found out every one had some kind of inbred genetic issue that you will never get rid of. I know line bred bloodlines in every breed that still have the same genetic issues popping up that they had 25 years ago or more. You can still buy Frozen semen from these dogs. You will never breed the problems out of those lines.
Most breeders won't breed a dog with a bad heart, but what about a dog that has 3 or 4 litter mates with bad hearts that the breeder never hears about.
No, Isonychia is right, if there is a test we should test and if there is a way to eastablish a decent database I'm in.
We have went from good and fair hips to all excellent by using ofa and by learning how to evaluate hip xrays. My very best dogs by far have been outcrosses with dogs with similar characteristics that I like and breedings with a very low COI.
This is a topic that is very interesting and has been very expensive to me. Be very careful who you believe there are some people that will give
you alternative facts. Thanks......Cj

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by Bowguy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:17 am

cjhills wrote:
Bowguy wrote:You can go lots through beeeding. This is the reason for line breeding, inbreeding and outcrossing. Breeding should not be “just because he n I have good dogs”.
When you line breed for instance (line breeding and inbreeding are only a degre) you breed similar dogs bloodline wise to enhance/set traits. You do this by stacking genes. I’d say the dog had a bad heart, you might never notice it but maybe every few generations. It might be a recessive gene. So if both these dogs has recessive genes for this heart issue, they were bred, the genes stacked now it’s a dominant trait and a real problem. It’s like to be passed down as now that dog/dogs are “producers” of those issues. Those dogs should never be bred again. But back to the recessive gene. If the dog has problems it may not be a dog you breed anyway if you know this or be very careful who you breed to. I just don’t think I’d spin the wheel on this.
So you say this is the reason you want outcrosses. Idk if you breed two totally unrelated dogs you wind up w a mixed litter. You’re chances of getting exactly what you want are bad and percentages are bad, producing power is non existent. . Outcrosses should only be done to introduce things into a breeding program needed. Say more foot, nose, etc.
For these reasons and these reasons only a reputable breeder w sound dogs is a great choice. He culled Dogs, he’s not bred in (or bred out) issues. He’s spent lots of money doing so. It’s a return on his investment a higher pup fee in this instance. Not a price simply because he bred two German shorthairs for instance. Fellows in my club ask 1500 for a pup. There’s no history of the dogs, nothing attempted in breeding (except to get your 1500), the guys really don’t know what they don’t know.
Anything can be bred in or out of a dog. Look to the Irish setter folks. Through improper breeding they bred out hunt. Look at dif strains which is something no one talks about. You can have similar dogs as someone else behind your dogs and if recently you’ve started to breed a certain style pup you can develop a strain of that blood that’s different characteristically.
If the dog has a bad heart, to me that a big reason not to breed it. It’s not bettering a breed to do so. That’s should be a very big consideration when choosing dogs.
Bowguy:
I am going to try to maintain my self control on this.
I do not know where you get your information. it sounds like the same breeders I got mine from. Any thing can not be bred in or out of a dog.
It sounded great when they were selling me dogs. Not so great when I found out every one had some kind of inbred genetic issue that you will never get rid of. I know line bred bloodlines in every breed that still have the same genetic issues popping up that they had 25 years ago or more. You can still buy Frozen semen from these dogs. You will never breed the problems out of those lines.
Most breeders won't breed a dog with a bad heart, but what about a dog that has 3 or 4 litter mates with bad hearts that the breeder never hears about.
No, Isonychia is right, if there is a test we should test and if there is a way to eastablish a decent database I'm in.
We have went from good and fair hips to all excellent by using ofa and by learning how to evaluate hip xrays. My very best dogs by far have been outcrosses with dogs with similar characteristics that I like and breedings with a very low COI.
This is a topic that is very interesting and has been very expensive to me. Be very careful who you believe there are some people that will give
you alternative facts. Thanks......Cj
You’re actually mistaken. There are recessive genes and dominant genes. It all depends how they stack during a breeding. You cannot introduce anything into a bloodline inbreeding. You enhance it. If no heridatary (gene type) heart disease exists it’s not likely to emerge. Outcrossing can bring things in. You gotta know your bloodlines through and through. Now you say certain bloodlines have the same issues 25 years later. Your own words prove the point you’re not thinking this through. If they had issues the dogs SHOULD NOT have been bred. Through correct selective breeding of those sound animals we can weed out genetic problems.
As far as the 3-4 littermates w bad heart the gene may or may not be in there. Certainly this needs to be addressed. Who is producing this trait? The sire? Dam? Both? Don’t breed em it’s that simple. It’s easy to say I have a dog I like and wanna breed but it has the issues. For the next 25 years I’ll just keep doing the same thing. It’s harder to not breed the dog. This is why quality breeders and only quality breeders deserve a high price. Someone who breeds dogs w bad hearts imo is not a good breeder. If you wanna spend money there you surely can.

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by Bowguy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:27 am

Hey let me try another way to explain? Would you breed dogs w crooked kegs or bad bites? Most guys wouldn’t. If it cropped up time n again we’d know there was an issue. The pups should be fixed or not bred as well as the parents or parent if we suspected one or the other was carrying a gene. Idk how else to explain it. Maybe we’ll just see things different. If your way is what you believe and it works God bless ya but your post w all due respect is full of holes. Please take nothing disrespectfully,

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:46 am

If only it was that simple. It is not about not breeding dogs with bad bites or bad legs or bad hearts. It is about not breeding 2 dogs that have the same bad genetics. You are much more likely to do that with close breeding. Nobody who has studied genetics recommends close inbreeding. No 2 puppies from the same litter have the same genetics.
You have listened to too many "good'" breeders. All you have to do is look at the Elhew Pointers. nobody bred tighter than Bob Wehle. In 2000 almost every ad in any pointing dog magazine had Elhew bloodlines 20 years later, not so much.
I got burned very bad by believing what you do, so do not waste your time telling me how it works. I know how it works. The Breeders are still breeding the genetically defective dogs. some with Frozen semen.
If your breeding theory worked why not pick the very best puppies you could find from the same litter and breed them. You should get all perfect dogs. You won't.
Interesting that you should mention Bad legs, bad bites and bad hearts. these are the three most common but there are many other issues. the bad puppies get the ice water and nobody knows. But the the litter mates carry the same genetics. You just can't see them until there offspring or farther down the road come along with the same issues. By the time you find out what you got a good titlled stud dog may have spread his genes pretty far.
Don't worry about being disrespectful to me.I have been there before. it does not bother me. have a nice day........Cj

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:01 pm

It is a problem when you try to breed out a bacterial or virous caused problem. Since much of the heart disease we encounter is heartworm related it will likely never be bred out. If it is genetic it is easy to breed out if you could get the breeders to do it. And that is not likely to happen.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Preventing Heart Disease through Breeding

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:It is a problem when you try to breed out a bacterial or virous caused problem. Since much of the heart disease we encounter is heartworm related it will likely never be bred out. If it is genetic it is easy to breed out if you could get the breeders to do it. And that is not likely to happen.

Ezzy
How is it easy? If you don't test you may not know. The pups carrying the gene may not be bred with another puppy carrying the gene. it might not show up for one or more generations. By then it can be bred into a lot of bloodlines.
Obviously nobody thinks they can breed out heart disease caused by heartworm, bacteria or virus......Cj

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