Raw Feeding

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:44 am

slistoe wrote:Hey Ezzy, don't be too hard on him - he just helped to point out how irrational his thought process is. Grasp at any straw. No real truth to any of it. (Well, I will grant that fat is a calorie dense feed and dogs can tolerate much higher levels of fat than people can without adverse effect.)
Let's see if Ezzy moderates this post?

If you believe it is irrational to understand that bad teeth undermine a dog's scenting ability--despite the fact that the truth of the matter has been well-established--I don't know what to say.

As to fat, dogs not only "tolerate much higher levels of fat than people can without adverse effect," they positively thrive on it. Fat metabolism is the optimal energy source for dogs and provides them with maximum stamina. Burning carbohydrates cuts performance.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:10 am

Spy Car wrote: If you believe it is irrational to understand that bad teeth undermine a dog's scenting ability--despite the fact that the truth of the matter has been well-established--I don't know what to say.
Bill
Tooth and gum disease undermine many more things than simply scenting ability. It is bad stuff.

What is irrational is to extrapolate that to try and make a point that doesn't exist. A stain on a tooth does not equate to periodontal disease - nor does it equate to diminished scenting ability.

Just for clarity, I have never had a dog with periodontal disease. None. Zero. Nada. If I ever do I will have it treated forthwith, and loss of scenting ability will not be the major concern for getting it treated.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Steve007 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 am

ezzy333 wrote:Thank you Bill. Now we know and I can throw away all of the text books I had to buy for college courses. I have often wondered where they got their ideas that were so far off base and how the dogs that were used for research gave us the wrong Info.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

You have to admit that beyond his obvious good sense and all-around rationality, ol' ezzy is a pretty funny guy. Unlike some here I could name.
Last edited by Steve007 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 am

slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote: If you believe it is irrational to understand that bad teeth undermine a dog's scenting ability--despite the fact that the truth of the matter has been well-established--I don't know what to say.
Bill
Tooth and gum disease undermine many more things than simply scenting ability. It is bad stuff.

What is irrational is to extrapolate that to try and make a point that doesn't exist. A stain on a tooth does not equate to periodontal disease - nor does it equate to diminished scenting ability.

Just for clarity, I have never had a dog with periodontal disease. None. Zero. Nada. If I ever do I will have it treated forthwith, and loss of scenting ability will not be the major concern for getting it treated.
Most (80% according to the vet in the Gun Dog Magazine) dogs develop periodontal disease.

You're correct that it isn't just about stained teeth. Those foul-looking teeth are evidence of deeper and more serious problems.

Problems that affect most (almost all) dogs that eat kibble.

This is not a small concern. And bad dental hygiene certainly does undermine scenting ability (along with a host of other deleterious health consequences).

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:12 am

Spy Car wrote: Most (80% according to the vet in the Gun Dog Magazine) dogs develop periodontal disease.

You're correct that it isn't just about stained teeth. Those foul-looking teeth are evidence of deeper and more serious problems.

Problems that affect most (almost all) dogs that eat kibble.

This is not a small concern. And bad dental hygiene certainly does undermine scenting ability (along with a host of other deleterious health consequences).

Bill
Certainly the vet in the article was not looking at my dogs :roll:
Stained teeth are not "foul-looking teeth".
Virtually every hunting dog I have ever been acquainted with is a kibble fed dog, not just my own. Tooth and gum disease is quite rare - rare enough that I cannot come up with a single case off the top of my head to talk about. So to say that it is a problem that affects most (almost all) dogs that eat kibble is simply wrong. Now in the boarding dogs that come in.... Toy Poodles, American Eskimos and Silky Terriers seem to have a high degree of problems with mouth disease - and many of them were not on a kibble diet.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Th4e article clearly is about periodontal disease and not just plack or stain on the teeth. I as well as Slistoe have explained quiteclearly that we have never had a dog suffer from that and I am sure many others have had the same experience. Searching for excuses is a normal thing to do when you have an agenda but we have kind of drawn a line that that says do it with out getting personal, a line you often step over and it needs to stop.

Ezzy
I don't know you, so I can't speak as to your dental experiences. Typically, most people have no idea that their pet has dental disease of any sort. "not just plaque or stain on the teeth" indicates that you may be one of those people. Dental disease runs the gamut from slight staining or slight pink to the gums, all the way to a rotten cesspool, and we grade it on a scale of I to V. "plaque or stain" is actually a very common, widely accepted, clear indicator of dental disease (ask your human dentist). That type of disease may be a II or III/V on the scale, depending on how bad, while a V/V would be a pet whose teeth are rotting out of it's head. Most pets don't show obvious signs of abscesses like we do, and they don't walk around yowling in pain. Sometimes just eating a little more slowly and having trouble chewing may be their only symptoms to their owners.

I can't speak personally on the difference raw feeding makes to teeth, though I have read several articles in JAVMA (the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, the peer reviewed, scientific forum for veterinary medicine) that does show the correlation. It makes sense. Carbs (in the form we're discussing here) are mostly sugar. Bacteria feeds on sugar (so does cancer, by the way). That sugar (essentially) turns into plaque, which turns into tartar. It stands to reason that a dog fed a food higher in cereals would have more teeth problems.

BUT. . .at the same time. . . many feeds also try to formulate their diets to make them "crunchier" so that the kibble actually physically "scrubs" the teeth through the course of chewing to try to offset that cycle.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:05 pm

I never feed wet kibble once a puppy is old enough to eat it dry for that reason. I think you will find the acidity level found in the mouth has more to do with plaque and tarter build up which is not a new discovery as my dentist confirmed it 50 years ago and still shows yet today. Raw feeding is probably better at discouraging it but I just lost my 13 year old that still had bright white teeth while my female had stains from the time she was 2 years old and they ate the same food.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by DennisCanfield » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:56 am

Nice post...anyone would like to let me know how many dogs have on this raw diet and what is the cost?

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Urban_Redneck » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:54 am

DennisCanfield wrote:Nice post...anyone would like to let me know how many dogs have on this raw diet and what is the cost?
I feed one dog on what's called "Prey Model Raw" or PMR, that is simply flesh/fat, liver, organs, and bone. She has been on raw since 4 weeks and is 19 months now.

At 57lbs, she eats about 32oz each day, I spend about $80 a month feeding chicken, pork, beef, green tripe, salmon, venison, goose, various livers, beef spleen and kidney, pork brains, and eggs (1 doz a month).

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:19 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
DennisCanfield wrote:Nice post...anyone would like to let me know how many dogs have on this raw diet and what is the cost?
I feed one dog on what's called "Prey Model Raw" or PMR, that is simply flesh/fat, liver, organs, and bone. She has been on raw since 4 weeks and is 19 months now.

At 57lbs, she eats about 32oz each day, I spend about $80 a month feeding chicken, pork, beef, green tripe, salmon, venison, goose, various livers, beef spleen and kidney, pork brains, and eggs (1 doz a month).
Do you have any idea as to what the daily nutritional label would look like?

Ezzy
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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Steve007 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:49 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Do you have any idea as to what the daily nutritional label would look like?
Image

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Urban_Redneck » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:35 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Urban_Redneck wrote:
DennisCanfield wrote:Nice post...anyone would like to let me know how many dogs have on this raw diet and what is the cost?
I feed one dog on what's called "Prey Model Raw" or PMR, that is simply flesh/fat, liver, organs, and bone. She has been on raw since 4 weeks and is 19 months now.

At 57lbs, she eats about 32oz each day, I spend about $80 a month feeding chicken, pork, beef, green tripe, salmon, venison, goose, various livers, beef spleen and kidney, pork brains, and eggs (1 doz a month).
Do you have any idea as to what the daily nutritional label would look like?

Ezzy
It looks like this:

Image

What you can't see, her white teeth, her great blood panel, stamina, lack of malodorous breath, and strong coat.

Interesting how people can feed themselves and their children, yet, Ezzy and the pet food mills insist you can't manage to feed a dog. :D

Likewise, ever wonder why Veterinarians are the only medical profession that advocates processed food diet for their patients? :lol:

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by SCT » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:07 am

Image

ever wonder why Veterinarians are the only medical profession that advocates processed food diet for their patients? :lol:[/quote]

I really like this question. Something to think about!

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by shags » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:02 am

Maybe because vets know that the major dog food companies spend lots of money on nutrition research, and employ actual scientists to carry out that work, and prefer trusting them as opposed to some lady or dentist on the interwebs who thinks their yorkies are fluffy lil wolves :roll:

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Steve007 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:04 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:Likewise, ever wonder why Veterinarians are the only medical profession that advocates processed food diet for their patients? :lol:
Silly question. So far as I know, there are only --broadly speaking-- two medical professions-- human and animal. The human one is the one where the patients have a choice. If they had no choice as to quantity or quality and both were selected according to matters of health rather than personal quirks or preference,it would certainly increase ease of food preparation, energy and longevity..as it has for our dogs.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:28 am

Urban_Redneck wrote: Likewise, ever wonder why Veterinarians are the only medical profession that advocates processed food diet for their patients? :lol:
Nobody in their right mind advises against cooking food for humans.
Last I checked dog food manufacturers were not using stripped/bleached wheat flours in their food, nor were they using sodium nitrates and nitrites. Nor do we find all the various forms of sugars and artificial sweeteners in dog food. As for the fats - I think it has already been established that dogs process those differently than humans. So the things that are commonly accepted as hazardous to human health in human processed foods simply don't exist in quality dog foods.
So, if you had actually taken time to "wonder" instead of just blathering, you would have realized the ponder was entirely without merit.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:32 am

shags wrote:Maybe because vets know that the major dog food companies spend lots of money on nutrition research, and employ actual scientists to carry out that work, and prefer trusting them as opposed to some lady or dentist on the interwebs who thinks their yorkies are fluffy lil wolves :roll:
Nah. Major dog food companies hire "food scientists" in an effort to figure out how to use the lowest quaily and, especially, the cheapest possible ingredients to their corporate maximize profits.

So they will render diseased, downed, and dying animals or parts that have been condemned at slaughterhouses and then mix them with cheap plant protein sources and cereals.

It ain't done to promote dog health. LOL.

There is no comparison between the condition and stamina of dogs fed a balanced PMR diet and those fed processed cereal-based diets. It's not remotely close.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by shags » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:44 am

Cite proof of your statement about stamina? Anecdotal evidence NFS.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:47 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:
What you can't see, her white teeth, her great blood panel, stamina, lack of malodorous breath, and strong coat.

Interesting how people can feed themselves and their children, yet, Ezzy and the pet food mills insist you can't manage to feed a dog. :D

Likewise, ever wonder why Veterinarians are the only medical profession that advocates processed food diet for their patients? :lol:
Same here. My Vizsla (about to turn 4) who has been fed a balanced PMR diet from 8 weeks has sparkling white teeth, clean breath, a great coat, a hard well-muscled body that hasn't thickened around the tuck, and stamina galore. And his vet loves the blood work.

It is amazing to me that marketing dollars of the pet food companies have been able to convince so many people that a processed cereal-based diet is superior to dogs eating what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on.

Amazing.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Urban_Redneck » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:01 am

Spy Car wrote:
Urban_Redneck wrote:
What you can't see, her white teeth, her great blood panel, stamina, lack of malodorous breath, and strong coat.

Interesting how people can feed themselves and their children, yet, Ezzy and the pet food mills insist you can't manage to feed a dog. :D

Likewise, ever wonder why Veterinarians are the only medical profession that advocates processed food diet for their patients? :lol:
Same here. My Vizsla (about to turn 4) who has been fed a balanced PMR diet from 8 weeks has sparkling white teeth, clean breath, a great coat, a hard well-muscled body that hasn't thickened around the tuck, and stamina galore. And his vet loves the blood work.

It is amazing to me that marketing dollars of the pet food companies have been able to convince so many people that a processed cereal-based diet is superior to dogs eating what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on.

Amazing.

Bill
Blinded by the purple bag, mesmerized by banners and advertising, they are immune to logic.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:05 am

shags wrote:Cite proof of your statement about stamina? Anecdotal evidence NFS.
There is massive evidence from multiple studies ranging from sled-dogs, to racing greyhounds, to hunting dogs, to police dogs, to sedentary dogs that show dramatic increases in stamina (and other positive working attributes) when dogs are moved from standard high carbohydrate rations to ones high in fat and protein and low in carbohydrates.

Most of these studies were paid for by pet food companies themselves. For that reason, they concentrate on high/fat and high/protein kibbles vs standard kibbles, but the scientific evidence is clear. When carbohydrates are cut from being the primary energy source and are replaced by fats, stamina soars.

This has been confirmed testing dogs VO2 Max scores on treadmills and is confirmed in the real world.

You might wish to read up on how carbohydrate burning in dogs leads to a quick burst of blood glycogen being released, that is followed by a crash. Carb burning in dogs is not sustainable physiologically. This is well demonstrated in the veterinary literature.

In contrast, fat metabolism provides a steady and almost unlimited supply of glycogen. That makes for stamina.

It might be time for you to do a little studying up on the science. Eh?

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Steve007 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:48 am

Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food.

I know several otherwise normal people who do this, and sometimes apparently get away with it. So I won't suggest that they are all nutty conspiracists. But when they get a PhD in canine nutrition, they'll be qualified to over-ride those on staff at the better dog food companies, Until then, they're wrong. Or nutty conspiracists.
Guess some of the people here missed this. Orthopedic surgeons aren't affected by advertising. They know what they see.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:09 pm

Steve007 wrote:
Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food.

I know several otherwise normal people who do this, and sometimes apparently get away with it. So I won't suggest that they are all nutty conspiracists. But when they get a PhD in canine nutrition, they'll be qualified to over-ride those on staff at the better dog food companies, Until then, they're wrong. Or nutty conspiracists.
Guess some of the people here missed this. Orthopedic surgeons aren't affected by advertising. They know what they see.
Please provide the citation for the study that backs this orthopedic surgeon's claim. Otherwise, I'll consider it off-the-wall.

That a lean well-muscled dog fed a healthier diet is going to recover less well from surgery strikes me as a crock. Unless having a de-tuned dog with reduced stamina due to a high carb diets make it easier to rest them.

Me? I don't wish to raise a couch potato.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:24 pm

Bill, it has to do with a balanced nutrition that is based on something besides looks and personal opinion.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Bill, it has to do with a balanced nutrition that is based on something besides looks and personal opinion.

Ezzy
It is extremely easy to provide a dog balanced nutrition with a PMR style raw diet.

The idea that every nugget of food (and every meal) needs to be exactly the same is a false one.

The scientific evidence for feeding dogs fat as their primary energy source to promote stamina is overwhelming. It ain't "opinion" Ezzy. It's called science. Feeding cereals and other carbohydrates cuts stamina in dogs.

As it happens, dogs fed better meals with nutrition also look better and have cleaner teeth.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:10 pm

Bill. I tended to agree with you till I saw the results of the feed test we did with mice, rats, and dogs, as well as the same results we got with plants from a homogenous fertilizer compared to "Close enough" But when comparing cost, it was much closer.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:22 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Bill. I tended to agree with you till I saw the results of the feed test we did with mice, rats, and dogs, as well as the same results we got with plants from a homogenous fertilizer compared to "Close enough" But when comparing cost, it was much closer.
I'm not sure how dogs compare with plants being given fertilizers. Apples and oranges.

And a balanced raw diet isn't "close enough," but superior in delivering bioavailable nutrition.

All kibble based diets contain way too many non-essential carbohydrates that hurt performance.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:56 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Bill. I tended to agree with you till I saw the results of the feed test we did with mice, rats, and dogs, as well as the same results we got with plants from a homogenous fertilizer compared to "Close enough" But when comparing cost, it was much closer.
I'm not sure how dogs compare with plants being given fertilizers. Apples and oranges.

And a balanced raw diet isn't "close enough," but superior in delivering bioavailable nutrition.

All kibble based diets contain way too many non-essential carbohydrates that hurt performance.

Bill
I really would like to see all the accolades your dog is racking up against other dogs with his superior stamina and strength.

As for the plants - the point being that ALL organisms thrive better when fed a consistent, optimized diet. And science can tell us what that diet consists of.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Steve007 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:04 pm

Spy Car wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food.

I know several otherwise normal people who do this, and sometimes apparently get away with it. So I won't suggest that they are all nutty conspiracists. But when they get a PhD in canine nutrition, they'll be qualified to over-ride those on staff at the better dog food companies, Until then, they're wrong. Or nutty conspiracists.
Guess some of the people here missed this. Orthopedic surgeons aren't affected by advertising. They know what they see.
Please provide the citation for the study that backs this orthopedic surgeon's claim. Otherwise, I'll consider it off-the-wall.

That a lean well-muscled dog fed a healthier diet is going to recover less well from surgery strikes me as a crock. Unless having a de-tuned dog with reduced stamina due to a high carb diets make it easier to rest them.

Me? I don't wish to raise a couch potato.

You'd discount anything that runs counter to your preconceived antediluvian ideas. A lot of dogs can get away with marginal nutrition when they are young, just based on youth and breeding. Ill health and age changes things. I've got a 15-year-old FC right now that bounces around and beats up my younger dog. The FC before that was in fine health right up until when he passed away the day before his 16th birthday. Neither could be described as a "couch potato", though it's what we expect of your ill manners to suggest it. As stated, there are otherwise normal people who are conspiracists and insist on believing that "big dog food" is out to get them. Unfortunately, their dogs, when age or physical trauma strikes, pay for their delusions.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:26 pm

Steve007 wrote: You'd discount anything that runs counter to your preconceived antediluvian ideas. A lot of dogs can get away with marginal nutrition when they are young, just based on youth and breeding. Ill health and age changes things. I've got a 15-year-old FC right now that bounces around and beats up my younger dog. The FC before that was in fine health right up until when he passed away the day before his 16th birthday. Neither could be described as a "couch potato", though it's what we expect of your ill manners to suggest it. As stated, there are otherwise normal people who are conspiracists and insist on believing that "big dog food" is out to get them. Unfortunately, their dogs, when age or physical trauma strikes, pay for their delusions.
Countless veterinary medical science studies show that fat is the optimal energy source for dogs and that--in stark contrast--carbohydrates cause a short boom and then a bust of glycogen delivery.

Instead of insulting others, you'd be better off following the science. It is very well-documented. Nothing conspiratorial, preconceived, or antediluvian about following the best nutritional science. The recognized leading authority on dog nutrition, the National Research Council, says carbs not essential to a canine diet.

In fact, carbohydrates cut dog's stamina. I'd suggest reading the literature.

Still waiting for the evidence that raw fed dogs recover more slowly from surgery. Getting a good laugh out of that whopper.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:54 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Bill. I tended to agree with you till I saw the results of the feed test we did with mice, rats, and dogs, as well as the same results we got with plants from a homogenous fertilizer compared to "Close enough" But when comparing cost, it was much closer.
I'm not sure how dogs compare with plants being given fertilizers. Apples and oranges.

And a balanced raw diet isn't "close enough," but superior in delivering bioavailable nutrition.

All kibble based diets contain way too many non-essential carbohydrates that hurt performance.

Bill
I think we are all aware of what your opinion is without further duplication.
Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:29 pm

Here is what Purina has to say [emphasis added]:

Endurance for dogs is based on how well their body can use fat as energy, thus not primarily relying on and/or depleting the limited sugar energy stored in muscles and liver as glycogen. Fat oxidation provides most of the dog’s energy at low rates of energy expenditure...

In humans, carbohydrate oxidation supports the intermediate speed of marathon runners until all glycogen stores have been depleted, whereupon fat oxidation becomes the only source available for energy. Depletion of glycogen stores in people results in an inability to accelerate. The consequence is stamina for humans is limited by the amount of glycogen in muscle, whereas in dogs, activation of fat metabolism and conversion of amino acids into glucose becomes initiated soon after exercise, thus contributing to an overall increased aerobic capacity and endurance.

Fat burning for endurance is preferred during prolonged exercise because of the limited amount of stored glycogen in muscle, the equivalent amount of fat in muscle provides dogs 50 times more energy stores.

High carbohydrate diets increase stamina in human athletes by increasing muscle glycogen4, but high carbohydrate diets have the reverse effect in dogs, as stamina is reduced5 and VO2 max becomes lower.


https://www.purinaproclub.com/resource- ... -athletes/

Read it and weep, Ezzy.

Bill (a source of good information)

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by mask » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:21 pm

My nephew is a musher in Alaska and competes in the Iditarod he told me that mushers feed a minimum of 50% high protein high fat kibble. Meat and fat from other things. He said they cant get by with out the kibble. They feed fish and other stuff they can get the cheapest. No musher he knows does not feed kibble.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:18 pm

mask wrote:My nephew is a musher in Alaska and competes in the Iditarod he told me that mushers feed a minimum of 50% high protein high fat kibble. Meat and fat from other things. He said they cant get by with out the kibble. They feed fish and other stuff they can get the cheapest. No musher he knows does not feed kibble.
I have already tried pointing that out to these fellows in the past - but it does not fit their agenda. I have even tried to explain how fox and mink ranchers add carbs to the diet of their animals because without them the fox and mink simply do not do as well.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:25 pm

Spy Car wrote:Here is what Purina has to say [emphasis added]:

Endurance for dogs is based on how well their body can use fat as energy, thus not primarily relying on and/or depleting the limited sugar energy stored in muscles and liver as glycogen. Fat oxidation provides most of the dog’s energy at low rates of energy expenditure...

In humans, carbohydrate oxidation supports the intermediate speed of marathon runners until all glycogen stores have been depleted, whereupon fat oxidation becomes the only source available for energy. Depletion of glycogen stores in people results in an inability to accelerate. The consequence is stamina for humans is limited by the amount of glycogen in muscle, whereas in dogs, activation of fat metabolism and conversion of amino acids into glucose becomes initiated soon after exercise, thus contributing to an overall increased aerobic capacity and endurance.

Fat burning for endurance is preferred during prolonged exercise because of the limited amount of stored glycogen in muscle, the equivalent amount of fat in muscle provides dogs 50 times more energy stores.

High carbohydrate diets increase stamina in human athletes by increasing muscle glycogen4, but high carbohydrate diets have the reverse effect in dogs, as stamina is reduced5 and VO2 max becomes lower.


https://www.purinaproclub.com/resource- ... -athletes/

Read it and weep, Ezzy.

Bill (a source of good information)
It has always been recognized that higher energy dogs did better on a higher fat diet - thus the reason for the "performance" dog foods with the 30/20 ratio. Basically those formulas are deriving more of the calories from fat than the "regular" formulations. It has also been a performance "secret" among some pros for the past 50+ years that a tablespoon of lard will help fire the dogs. You aren't exactly serving up any new information here, and are ignoring the fact that fat levels need to be monitored in balance with the other nutritional and activity needs of the dog. Simply saying "fat is better" is a simplification that can easily lead to malnourished and/or obese dogs.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:24 am

It always surprises me when folk look for a magic formulae to get high performance and the easy one that scientific minds concentrate on is the fuel/food.
Nobody ever mentions 'Grit ' ! (The Rooster Cockburn type ) :lol:
Having raced Long Dogs in the past ,you can put all the high energy fuel you want in to a bridesmaid but it ain't gonna make it a bride.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:28 pm

polmaise wrote:It always surprises me when folk look for a magic formulae to get high performance and the easy one that scientific minds concentrate on is the fuel/food.
Nobody ever mentions 'Grit ' ! (The Rooster Cockburn type ) :lol:
Having raced Long Dogs in the past ,you can put all the high energy fuel you want in to a bridesmaid but it ain't gonna make it a bride.
Ah, those elusive qualities - heart and bottom - that you strive to repeat in a breeding but they always seem to get away on you.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:04 pm

slistoe wrote:
polmaise wrote:It always surprises me when folk look for a magic formulae to get high performance and the easy one that scientific minds concentrate on is the fuel/food.
Nobody ever mentions 'Grit ' ! (The Rooster Cockburn type ) :lol:
Having raced Long Dogs in the past ,you can put all the high energy fuel you want in to a bridesmaid but it ain't gonna make it a bride.
Ah, those elusive qualities - heart and bottom - that you strive to repeat in a breeding but they always seem to get away on you.
:lol:
Pretty much ! ..Like chasing Rainbows . ..Until one comes along and You think it's because you added 'x' or 'y' and 'z' , so you peddle the same to your self ...and at worse ..Others .But some work and some don't ....Like the Gambling addict that only tells you what they won . Never what they lost on the way to that win.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by mask » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:29 pm

One could feed the same feed to a draft horse and a throughbred and the draft horse will still never run five furlongs in 57 flat. There is such thing as apples and oranges. You cant make a poodle into an English pointer no matter what you feed it.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:16 am

mask wrote:My nephew is a musher in Alaska and competes in the Iditarod he told me that mushers feed a minimum of 50% high protein high fat kibble. Meat and fat from other things. He said they cant get by with out the kibble. They feed fish and other stuff they can get the cheapest. No musher he knows does not feed kibble.
Thank you for making my point for me.

Such mushers feed high-protein/high-fat kibbles that are to 30/20 formulas, what Pro Plan is to Old Roy.

Then, in addition to feeding much less carbohydrate in the kibble they use by not using a moderate-protein/fat formula, a musher like the hypothetical here further reduces inferior plant-based incomplete proteins and increases animal-based proteins and good fats by feeding 50% meat, fish, and other animal-based foods.

They do this because they know--beyond a doubt--that reducing carbohydrates in the diet and increasing animal-based fat and proteins will dramatically increase endurance in dogs.

They know this from experience and it has been confirmed in multiple scientific studies, with both sled-dogs and other breeds.

If those with gundogs fed the same way as this hypothetical musher--that is to say they greatly increased real animal-based foods and reduced the carbs in the diet---they too would see very significant increases in stamina.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:20 am

mask wrote:One could feed the same feed to a draft horse and a throughbred and the draft horse will still never run five furlongs in 57 flat. There is such thing as apples and oranges. You cant make a poodle into an English pointer no matter what you feed it.
Not a germane comparison.

If one took the same dog and fed it a standard high-carb kibble diet and tested its VO2 Max scores and then took the same dog and moved it to a high-protein/fat formula that significantly reduced calories from carbs, that individual dog's endurance would rise dramatically.

The tests have been done in a pet-food company study. The difference is dramatic.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:45 am

Most people believe that non-grain craze is because of hype, but what has been found is that it's the high glycemic grains like corn that cause the spike in sugars along with the lows. I use a brand of kibble that's produced in Europe that is for the most part non-grain food. But even better, most of their foods protein, like 90%-96% of the protein is from meat. I was turned onto it by a reproduction vet tech who raises cumberlands that have a very low fertility rate. After using it she found her dogs fertility boosted dramatically. Quality nutrition is key for good fertility, along with hunting endurance.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Steve007 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:11 am

SCT wrote: I was turned onto it by a reproduction vet tech who raises cumberlands that have a very low fertility rate. After using it she found her dogs fertility boosted dramatically.
Cumberlands??? Does this mean Clumber Spaniels?

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by mask » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:48 am

spy car, what % of fat do you feed and what kind? What is the total protein of your ration? I, like most, want to do what is best for their dogs, not argue. I have all age bred pointers and hunt in terribly rough country. It is not named Hells Canyon for nothing. My dogs run from thirty to forty miles per hunt more or less. Would a dog fed the diet you describe give a dog more stamina under these conditions ie steep, rocky, and rough?

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Meller » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:20 pm

SCT wrote:Most people believe that non-grain craze is because of hype, but what has been found is that it's the high glycemic grains like corn that cause the spike in sugars along with the lows. I use a brand of kibble that's produced in Europe that is for the most part non-grain food. But even better, most of their foods protein, like 90%-96% of the protein is from meat. I was turned onto it by a reproduction vet tech who raises cumberlands that have a very low fertility rate. After using it she found her dogs fertility boosted dramatically. Quality nutrition is key for good fertility, along with hunting endurance.
What is the name of this feed? And how can one go about getting it.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:19 pm

mask wrote:spy car, what % of fat do you feed and what kind? What is the total protein of your ration? I, like most, want to do what is best for their dogs, not argue. I have all age bred pointers and hunt in terribly rough country. It is not named Hells Canyon for nothing. My dogs run from thirty to forty miles per hunt more or less. Would a dog fed the diet you describe give a dog more stamina under these conditions ie steep, rocky, and rough?
Feeding 50-60% of calories from fat is considered ideal, remembering that fat has 2.25 times the calories per gram than either protein or carbohydrates. If one, for example, fed 2/3 of the "meat" (meaning muscle and fat) portion as muscle and 1/3 as fat, one would get 8 parts calories from protein to 9 parts calories from fat (or 52% from fat).

Most of the fat I feed is from beef, pork, fish, other meats, or chicken skins. Occasionally I'd give some coconut oil. No polyunsaturated oils.

I would caution that because many changes need to take place metabolically when shifting a dog to primary fat burning (from a higher carb ratio) including the release of different digestive enzymes by the pancreas, that is best to transition to higher fat diets gradually.

I trust you'd see a difference--especially under such demanding circumstances. Dogs can metabolize fat almost indefinitely for a steady supply of energy. For those who run their dogs in conditions like yours, the benefits should be pretty obvious.

Should you decide to try it, I'd just repeat the advice to transition gradually.

Bill

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:03 pm

It sure would be nice to see pics of Posters next to their 'Fit dogs' .. Just as a guide to the discipline of feeding and nutrition

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by slistoe » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:23 pm

Spy Car wrote: Such mushers feed high-protein/high-fat kibbles that are to 30/20 formulas, what Pro Plan is to Old Roy.

Then, in addition to feeding much less carbohydrate in the kibble they use by not using a moderate-protein/fat formula, a musher like the hypothetical here further reduces inferior plant-based incomplete proteins and increases animal-based proteins and good fats by feeding 50% meat, fish, and other animal-based foods.

They do this because they know--beyond a doubt--that reducing carbohydrates in the diet and increasing animal-based fat and proteins will dramatically increase endurance in dogs.

They know this from experience and it has been confirmed in multiple scientific studies, with both sled-dogs and other breeds.

If those with gundogs fed the same way as this hypothetical musher--that is to say they greatly increased real animal-based foods and reduced the carbs in the diet---they too would see very significant increases in stamina.

Bill
And you know full well that when the endurance sled dogs are not running or training that they are on a diet that is more similar to the Pro-Plan 30/20 formula than what they are eating while running hundreds of miles pulling sled. What they feed when on the trail is not at all like the day to day diet.
You also know full well that mushers do not feed an all raw diet - they consider quality kibble to be an essential part of the dietary requirements of the dog and the ratio of kibble to other supplemental feeds changes with the metabolic requirements of the dog.
And the studies have also shown that not all breeds of dogs show increased performance on high protein/high fat diets. Greyhounds are one that saw performance losses in sprinting when the protein levels got too high - and too high for them was nowhere near what has been found optimal for Iditarod sled dogs.
So the question still remains - where is the balance for those dogs whose performance requirements are somewhere between that of the long distance sled dog and the high speed sprinter? Certainly the endurance sled dogs are not well suited to the short, high speed dash of the Sprint sled dogs - where English Pointers and GSP's have been quite successful both as teams of dogs and as sources of breeding material to other sled hound breeds to increase speed over the short haul (15 min to 4 hours). Obviously these dogs have different muscle structures and metabolic processes.
Certainly fats, when introduced in to the diet properly, can give a dog "quick" energy, but your approach of "more fat is always better" is a dangerous path to run on.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by Spy Car » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:38 pm

slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote: Such mushers feed high-protein/high-fat kibbles that are to 30/20 formulas, what Pro Plan is to Old Roy.

Then, in addition to feeding much less carbohydrate in the kibble they use by not using a moderate-protein/fat formula, a musher like the hypothetical here further reduces inferior plant-based incomplete proteins and increases animal-based proteins and good fats by feeding 50% meat, fish, and other animal-based foods.

They do this because they know--beyond a doubt--that reducing carbohydrates in the diet and increasing animal-based fat and proteins will dramatically increase endurance in dogs.

They know this from experience and it has been confirmed in multiple scientific studies, with both sled-dogs and other breeds.

If those with gundogs fed the same way as this hypothetical musher--that is to say they greatly increased real animal-based foods and reduced the carbs in the diet---they too would see very significant increases in stamina.

Bill
And you know full well that when the endurance sled dogs are not running or training that they are on a diet that is more similar to the Pro-Plan 30/20 formula than what they are eating while running hundreds of miles pulling sled. What they feed when on the trail is not at all like the day to day diet.
You also know full well that mushers do not feed an all raw diet - they consider quality kibble to be an essential part of the dietary requirements of the dog and the ratio of kibble to other supplemental feeds changes with the metabolic requirements of the dog.
And the studies have also shown that not all breeds of dogs show increased performance on high protein/high fat diets. Greyhounds are one that saw performance losses in sprinting when the protein levels got too high - and too high for them was nowhere near what has been found optimal for Iditarod sled dogs.
So the question still remains - where is the balance for those dogs whose performance requirements are somewhere between that of the long distance sled dog and the high speed sprinter? Certainly the endurance sled dogs are not well suited to the short, high speed dash of the Sprint sled dogs - where English Pointers and GSP's have been quite successful both as teams of dogs and as sources of breeding material to other sled hound breeds to increase speed over the short haul (15 min to 4 hours). Obviously these dogs have different muscle structures and metabolic processes.
Certainly fats, when introduced in to the diet properly, can give a dog "quick" energy, but your approach of "more fat is always better" is a dangerous path to run on.
Again, you are proving my point.

If a musher feeds his or her dogs a 30/20 type diet in the off-season that dog will become de-tuned and will not be capable of the same performance they have when eating a high-protein/high-fat diet during the racing season. Mushers feed a much higher protein/fat formula (one that minimizes carbs) when they want to maximize endurance and speed. Precisely my point.

I don't want my dog to become "de-tuned" at any point during the year.

It isn't true that no mushers feed raw (in the first place) and many decide to compromise due the necessity of feeding a lot of dogs when they get free food from sponsors. You know that, right? So be serious.

It is simply not true that all breeds haven't show increased performance when on high-protein/high-fat diet rather than high-carb ones. In fact, the results have been consistent across all breeds.

Greyhounds fed high-fat vs high-carb did better. In the case of Greyhounds some were surprised as they are in one of the few canine sports where they are only in a short burst and some had figured the peak and bust energy pattern of carb burning would effect them less given the low endurance nature of dog racing. Still high-fat fed sprinters outperformed high-carbs sprinters.

No high-carb fed dog has outperformed a high-fat fed dog (all other factors being equal) in any test, ever.

My approach isn't "more fat is always better," it is between 50 and 60% of calories appears to be ideal. The aft is NOT in the diet to provide "quick energy," it is there to supply sustained energy. That is where fat wins, and carbs fail.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:56 pm

Steve007 wrote:
SCT wrote: I was turned onto it by a reproduction vet tech who raises cumberlands that have a very low fertility rate. After using it she found her dogs fertility boosted dramatically.
Cumberlands??? Does this mean Clumber Spaniels?
Yes, sorry. I don’t know much about the breed.

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