Thinning spot on GSP head?

[halt3rtop]

Hey guys

So, when Bullet was younger, he sustained a bit of a bump on his head from running into a massive wooden post in my parents yard. They were puppysitting him. It healed, but left a scar on his head. Recently, I noticed a bit of hair thinned around this spot. Thought nothing of it. My boyfriend then mentioned "your dog is balding!" and I laughed, and thought nothing of it until I inspected him today. It's gotten significantly larger in size, and it's not like its "bald" but thinning. And only from certain angles does it look "bad". He's not scratching, no itching, no skin flakes are coming off of this area, and he's healthy otherwise. I'm taking him into the vet for 4pm today just to have him checked out, but anyone else have issues like this? He's not even crated anymore, sleeps by the fire, so it's not like his head is resting against the metal bars like they were as a pup.

[Sharon]

How old is he now?

[halt3rtop]

He will be 3 december 18th. Vet did a check on him, and apparently hes got a localized dermodex spot. Got the special shampoo for him, and been doing what the vet has said.

[MonsterDad]

That is pretty unusual for an adult dog. He should get a thorough check-up to see if there is an underlying problem. Demodex is a secondary problem.

The vet did a scraping and concluded it was Demodectic Mange? It does look like it.

Best also to feed better, more protein coming from animal sources not corn products.

[ezzy333]

That is pretty unusual for an adult dog. He should get a thorough check-up to see if there is an underlying problem. Demodex is a secondary problem.

The vet did a scraping and concluded it was Demodectic Mange? It does look like it.

Best also to feed better, more protein coming from animal sources not corn products.

But remember that more protein from animal sources, not corn products will not make a feed better or have anything to do with the problem. Anyone would have to know what you are feeding now, how much the dog is eating, and what the dog needs before determining what changes would need to be made. But mange is not a nutritional problem. Follow you vet's advice would be the best advice you can get.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

That is pretty unusual for an adult dog. He should get a thorough check-up to see if there is an underlying problem. Demodex is a secondary problem.

The vet did a scraping and concluded it was Demodectic Mange? It does look like it.

Best also to feed better, more protein coming from animal sources not corn products.

But remember that more protein from animal sources, not corn products will not make a feed better or have anything to do with the problem. Anyone would have to know what you are feeding now, how much the dog is eating, and what the dog needs before determining what changes would need to be made. But mange is not a nutritional problem. Follow you vet's advice would be the best advice you can get.

Ezzy

You should do some research on this topic. Many vets do recommend higher protein and better quality protein for periods when a dog's immunity is under pressure. This type of Mange is purely immunity related, you know that.

You must be a corn trader or something

[Cicada]

Try adding a salmon/fish pill to his feed works great on my GSPs

Grant

[dog dr]

That is pretty unusual for an adult dog. He should get a thorough check-up to see if there is an underlying problem. Demodex is a secondary problem.

The vet did a scraping and concluded it was Demodectic Mange? It does look like it.

Best also to feed better, more protein coming from animal sources not corn products.

So what's the difference between animal protein and non-animal protein, besides the source?

[Doc E]

So what's the difference between animal protein and non-animal protein, besides the source?

Amino acids and amino acid ratios.

.

[ezzy333]

So what's the difference between animal protein and non-animal protein, besides the source?

Amino acids and amino acid ratios.

.

Every source has a different amino acid make up. That id why a combination of sources is better than a single one. But animal is not better, just different. The body has no way of knowing where any one element came from and sure doesn't care. As long as the essential amino acid needs are met, you are in pretty good shape. But animal or vegetable sources makes no difference.

Ezzy

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

All of my Vets increased the amount of Ivermectin to kill Demodex if that is contributing to the problem. And yes Demodex is a immune deficiency so a diet higher in amino acids (animal protein) can help.

Trauma can leave permanent scarring though so maybe it could be a combination of factors.

[MonsterDad]

That is pretty unusual for an adult dog. He should get a thorough check-up to see if there is an underlying problem. Demodex is a secondary problem.

The vet did a scraping and concluded it was Demodectic Mange? It does look like it.

Best also to feed better, more protein coming from animal sources not corn products.

So what's the difference between animal protein and non-animal protein, besides the source?

Concentrations of amino acids are also much higher in animal protein sources. There is no reason to argue about this. It is scientific fact that during immune system stress, which is the case here, that higher protein and better quality protein is a good idea.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it is so difficult for some people to grasp that vegetable matter like corn gluten is a poor source of protein relative to animal sources.

[ezzy333]

That is pretty unusual for an adult dog. He should get a thorough check-up to see if there is an underlying problem. Demodex is a secondary problem.

The vet did a scraping and concluded it was Demodectic Mange? It does look like it.

Best also to feed better, more protein coming from animal sources not corn products.

So what's the difference between animal protein and non-animal protein, besides the source?

Concentrations of amino acids are also much higher in animal protein sources. There is no reason to argue about this. It is scientific fact that during immune system stress, which is the case here, that higher protein and better quality protein is a good idea.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it is so difficult for some people to grasp that vegetable matter like corn gluten is a poor source of protein relative to animal sources.

In answer to your last question, some of us have studied and worked in the field of animal nutrition and know better and the results testing and trials prove it.
I have no problem with the concept of high protein but the quality of protein is something that you will need to prove since protein is just a term we use to cover the amino acids the body needs and the chemical makeup does not change regardless of where it comes from. The proper balance of all of the essential amino acids is what we strive for so you don't have to spend a lot of money buying things that the dog doesn't need just to get what it does need. Maybe you should show everyone why Corn Gluten is so bad or why one amino acid is better than the others when they are all essential.

[dog dr]

Amino acids Unit Avg SD Min Max Nb
Alanine % protein 8.5 0.6 7.5 9.6 57
Arginine % protein 3.0 0.3 2.5 3.4 62
Aspartic acid % protein 5.8 0.4 5.1 6.7 57
Cystine % protein 1.8 0.2 1.5 2.1 53
Glutamic acid % protein 20.1 1.3 18.0 22.2 57
Glycine % protein 2.5 0.3 2.0 2.9 58
Histidine % protein 2.0 0.2 1.7 2.4 52
Isoleucine % protein 4.0 0.3 3.4 4.4 63
Leucine % protein 15.9 0.7 14.7 17.9 64
Lysine % protein 1.7 0.1 1.4 2.1 75
Methionine % protein 2.4 0.2 2.1 2.7 57
Phenylalanine % protein 6.1 0.3 5.5 6.6 64
Proline % protein 8.7 0.4 7.9 9.8 33
Serine % protein 4.9 0.3 4.4 5.4 58
Threonine % protein 3.3 0.2 2.9 3.6 65
Tryptophan % protein 0.5 0.1 0.4 0.6 32
Tyrosine % protein 4.8 0.4 4.1 5.4 44
Valine % protein 4.5 0.3 3.9 5.1 62

Hate to turn this into another nutrition debate, but... above is the amino acid composition of corn gluten. All 10 of the essential amino acids that dogs require are found in corn gluten. Meat protein does contain higher concentrations of some of the essential amino acids, like tryptophan for example. That is why most dog foods also include some type of meat based protein in their formulation. However, as Ezzy stated, its better to get protein from more than 1 source becuase its easier to balance the required levels in the ration. Non-essential amino acids can be formed from peices of essential amino acids in the body, and the body has the ability to peice amino acids together to form protein. During digestion, protein gets broken down into peptides, which are small chains of amino acids, and then absorbed by the intestine. It makes no difference whether those peptides come from animal or plant based protein sources, as the individual amino acids that make them up are chemically and biologically identical. Increasing protein intake gives the dog a greater quantity of building blocks to create immune system components (like antibodys, lymph tissue, white blood cells, T cells and B cells, etc) but it doesnt do anything to enhance the bodys immune response.

[MonsterDad]

Ezzy,

You should read rather than just talk about things that happened decades ago. There is ample evidence now that as vegetable protein goes up so does injury and illness.

Like I said read more, bloviate less.....

[Canadian]

I just finished going through the same thing with my GSP. It all started for her around 9 months of age. Here is what I learned in the process, and what I did to get her better.

What I Learned

1. Demodectic Mange can only be passed to a pup from the mother. Your breeder should know about this. If you dealt with a reputable breeder, I would let them know so they can try to prevent this problem in the future.

2. All dogs have mites on their bodies... and the unlucky ones have the mites that cause demodectic mange. Healthy dogs have immune systems strong enough to keep the mites at bay. Dogs who have a compromised immune system no longer have the strength to fight off the mites.

3. There are plenty of treatments available, but in my opinion finding the "root cause" is very important. As an example, Ivermectin is a common treatment for demodectic mange. The drug takes a long time to work its way through the body and to the skin were it kills the mites. In order to kill the mites some dogs need to stay on Ivermectin for months at a time. But think of this... if the "root cause" of the demodectic mange was a weakened immune system, then the Ivermectin will have killed the mites but will have done nothing to improve the immune system.

4. Keep watch for other issues with your dog. I singled this out to being an immune system problem for several reasons. On top of demodectic mange, my dog had warts on her foot, and inside of her mouth. She also had frequent diarrhea, vomiting, etc. In the first 9 months I had her, she had been to 10+ vet appointments.


What I Did

Addressing the Active Mites
The first thing I did was give my dog a Mitaban dip. This is an "old school" treatment for treating demodectic mange, but your vet should know about it. It's a medicated bath. It works very well to kill any mites on the dog. You may have to arm wrestle your vet to get this treatment done because some vets would rather you pay for 6-9 months of office visits and Ivermectin prescriptions instead of treating the dog once.

Fixing the Immune System
I worked with Dr. Ruth Robert's from "Sun Dog Cat Moon". She's basically a holistic vet. I wasn't really into the holistic thing but I wasn't having any luck with standard vets so I thought I'd give it a try. She also came highly recommended by someone I trust. Here's what we discovered.

Early on in my dogs life, she has several rounds of diarrhea. The treatment from my vet was antibiotics. These antibiotics killed all of her healthy intestinal flora. I didn't know this, but intestinal flora which is responsible for digestions and absorption of nutrients, is also VERY important to the immune system. I think Dr. Roberts said something along the lines of it being 70% of the immune system. So basically, she had no intestinal flora and hence no immune system. Dr. Roberts thought this was causing all of the issues. So we tried the following.

1. Start the dog on a strong probiotic. We used ProThera by Klaire labs. It has 100+ billion CFU's per dose (1/day) and is easily mixed into her food. I bought mine on Amazon and it's lasted for 2.5 months.

2. Start the dog on a multivitamin. I used vetri science canine plus. I bought 1000 tablets and they were quite affordable.

3. Feed her a cooked diet. This one takes some time but it's done wonders. Commercial dog foods can have many MANY ingredients that effect your dogs immune system. I'm using Dr. Roberts "Crockpet Diet". I bought roaster oven and can make a couple months of supply in a couple days. It's more expensive than dry food, BUT considering I was spending $200-$400 per month on vet bills, it's a bargain. The diet is available here for free http://www.ktul.com/story/25242099/reci ... t-pet-food. There's also a youtube video showing how to prepare it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ag44KKeb4. I'm actually cooking a batch as we speak.

The Results
The results were nothing short of miraculous. In about 3 weeks everything cleared up. The warts were gone, the mange was gone, no more vomiting or diarrhea, and her overall health just got better. She also wasn't interested in her old dry food (we tried many of the top brands) and wouldn't eat. Nearly 3 months later, she still eats this food like she hasn't eaten in 6 months every time we put it down.

She's now healthy and happy and hasn't been to the vet in over 3 months!

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask away.

Chris Thornham