Breeding?

[nanney1]

In the fall, I took my female to see the male on days 9-15. She would have nothing to do with him though he was quite interested the first few days. Unfortunately, she was non receptive, nasty when he tried to mount, and nicked him a few times. By days 14 and 15, he no longer had any interest.

This time we've got them together early. On day 3, he came to live with us. They are crated side by side and go outside together. They've sniffed a little but haven't really done anything or had any issues. We're at day 8 of her cycle today and their 5th day together so I'm hopeful that things will progress smoothly and that having them be together for an extended time is the way to go.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

You may want to think about taking her to a vet for a progesterone test or a vaginal smear. Sometimes counting days won't be accurate enough.

[deseeker]

You might have a female that has to be held and forced to breed --- happens a lot more than you think--- most of mine have to be forced to breed. It also sounds like you need to muzzle the female so she doesn't discourage the male by biting or nipping him. You might want to do a test at the vets to see when she is ready. Most of my females will breed somewhere between day 10 and 13(but that is just my dogs, yours might be different). Good luck

[Moulders Farm]

I have had that the first time with a older female & I found if when she first started I would take her to the stud owner & every night & morning he let them out to gether in 3 or 4 days he would call she was breed then when my stud dog got old enught I did the same .I always let them out to run day & night when the right day comes they will breed . Some females whether humans or dogs just like to be corted a little & let it happen .

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I have had that the first time with a older female & I found if when she first started I would take her to the stud owner & every night & morning he let them out to gether in 3 or 4 days he would call she was breed then when my stud dog got old enught I did the same .I always let them out to run day & night when the right day comes they will breed . Some females whether humans or dogs just like to be corted a little & let it happen .

That's right! My girls like a little "Sinatra" and Merlot.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

You might have a female that has to be held and forced to breed --- happens a lot more than you think--- most of mine have to be forced to breed. It also sounds like you need to muzzle the female so she doesn't discourage the male by biting or nipping him. You might want to do a test at the vets to see when she is ready. Most of my females will breed somewhere between day 10 and 13(but that is just my dogs, yours might be different). Good luck

Would this behavior be considered a genetic trait that may cause you to avoid breeding the female? Not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious and interested in this. I'm not a breeder.

Nate

[deseeker]

You might have a female that has to be held and forced to breed --- happens a lot more than you think--- most of mine have to be forced to breed. It also sounds like you need to muzzle the female so she doesn't discourage the male by biting or nipping him. You might want to do a test at the vets to see when she is ready. Most of my females will breed somewhere between day 10 and 13(but that is just my dogs, yours might be different). Good luck

Would this behavior be considered a genetic trait that may cause you to avoid breeding the female? Not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious and interested in this. I'm not a breeder.

Nate

Nate---
I don't know if it is a genetic trait or not. It will NEVER cause me not to breed a female---my avatar dog was forced bred to 4 different males( Aux-Arc Mark, Lobo's Blazing Candy Man, Silver Lake's Wishes Blaze, and Masked Shoshoni War Chief) and produced a couple of great dogs---Bourbon XIII(Purina Dog Of The Year) & Mark's Penny Candy(a CKC's field trial dog of the year--all breeds) and quite a few dogs that have passed on field trial genes on down the line. Back when I field trialed it seemed like a lot of the brittany pros had to force their females to breed.. Maybe some of the other Brittany people on the forum can help out with these questions. I also had to force breed one of my master hunters to a couple of FC dogs. One litter produced a DC/AFC that placed in National Amaetuer Gun Dog Championship & was 3rd in Masked Man Award. The other litter produced a futurity gun dog RU(25 starters). IMO you are not hurting the genetics by force breeding.

[Fun dog]

Not all dogs go by the text book. I had a dog here once that was in heat when she arrived. She was not receptive to the male until the forth week. And yes, she did have a litter of healthy pups.

[mountaindogs]

Yes I had one the took on day 21. She never would accept and the did a side by side AI at the vet. Big healthy litter.

[cjhills]

I am quite convinced that many breeding problems come from getting away from the natural scheme of things. When you take the bitch to the stud on day 9 you could very well be too late. It is upsetting to the bitch and may cause her to go out of season. We like to get the female immediately when the cycle starts and kennel her next to the male and give them some time to get acquainted. Some females are quite selective in nature and don't want to give it up to any old hound. If one or the other is not too aggressive put them out together, preferably in a big run, and let the games begin naturally. The stud dog knows when the time is right. I suppose there is a chance that one of the dogs could get hurt in this process. We watch closely at first. This as worked for us on many hard breeders and shy females. Having a experience stud dog helps with timid females. Generally the dogs know when it is time and all the testing in the world will not change that...............................Cj

[nanney1]

I've continued to go the way of Mother Nature and just keep them together. Over the weekend, she showed signs of playfulness around him on Saturday, but he didn't seem to care. On Sunday, the male was ready and chased her all around the yard. He tried to mount but she would run away. Then she would run back, etc... Never would let him mount, but seemed close.

Today, he is aggressively going after her and she is snapping back and having nothing to do with him. She has gone clear. My other male is beside himself and howling and crying. Seems like now is the time, but she doesn't want to get with the program. Tried muzzling and restraining her, but she drops her rear and tucks her tail. This is day 13.

[SCT]

If you really want pups you better take them to a vet today and do an AI. There's most likely a breeding specialist near you depending where you live, but a specialist is not required. I would've done this 2 or 3 days ago if it were me.

[nanney1]

Dropped them off at the vet for a fresh AI today. Not sure about the timing as this is day 14 since the first sign of bleeding. The male has lived with us since day 3. He basically ignored her for the next week.

Two days ago on day 12 he became a new dog and chased her all over the yard and attempted to mount. She would spin and run away. On day 13 (yesterday) he aggressively tried to mount and clamp on and didn't care if he got bit or not. My other male has also gone nuts, howling and crying.

Today, on day 14, both males are still nutso, and desperate to get at her. So, hopefully the timing is good. From what I've read, days 10-14 or 11-15 are usually prime days, so I'm hoping we're right on time. My males sure seem to think this is the right time???

[SCT]

She should be ovulating if they are going crazy, who knows why she's not responding to them. She must be a man hater;-). She should be receptive for 3 days or so from what I have understood, so hopefully if they get her taken care of this morning she will still have a litter, possibly a smaller litter, but who knows. Good luck!

[nanney1]

I took her to the male on her last cycle and she was nasty each day. So, our plan was to house them together and let them out together in the yard in hopes she would warm up this time. They were fine together until he got persistent about mounting.

In fact, I would have been o.k. with missing this cycle and trying again next time with progesterone testing and dialing in the right day(s) for an AI. However, my son, who is a co-owner, will be gone off to school by her next cycle and was hopeful of getting some pups this time. And, I wanted his help at home when they arrived. So, I went for a last ditch effort on the fresh AI.

I took her in first and she was crated and then I brought in the male. They took him back and I heard the normal viscious snarling and barking. The vet staff were laughing. Apparently when they took him back, he was close to her crate and lunged and pulled toward the crate and she responded in her usual manner as of late.

I took him outside by himself this morning as I didn't want to risk him getting bit. When I brought him back in the house he pulled toward her crate and was trying jump up on top of it or something. I assume he was trying to get to her through the crate in some way and did the same at the vet's office.

[kninebirddog]

I recently begun to check for my females LH Surge with some strips which are about 3 bucks each then if I am going to do an AI it is also cheaper then going in for all the progesterone tests...as about 24-36 hours after the surge is when is supposed to be the best time to have the female bred.
I begin testing the females about 3-4 days after the bleeding starts so far the strips have helped on 2 and now we shall see on this third female seeing that she had me make a 12.5 hour trip one way to get bred to the stud dog.

As for the breeding part...I have seen it quite a bit where the females were less then receptive to the males..Partly I think it has to do with many times those males are not part of their pack so they aren't to keen on a strange dog jumping them IE We humans do not allow for them to basically court in a dog manner.
I have seen females that they just were not going to stand no matter what
With first timers I always hold the female as to not get the make into trouble.

[nanney1]

kninebirddog:
Where can you get those strips?

[kninebirddog]

I ordered a bunch from a lady in Canada....
43.00 for 20 strips includes regular mail here is the lower 48

[SCT]

Hey kninebirddog could you give me a specific product name on those strips please. I too have a long drive to make in a couple of months and would love to try them out if you've had success. I will probably make the drive as soon as I see blood spotting in hopes that she will accept him better, but I'd still like to have the strips in hand. Thanks in advance, Steve

[kninebirddog]

I have strips
When the female comes in I generally start to use the strips about 3 or 4 days into the cycle...

How do they work?

The pads change colour from Pink to Purple/Burgundy during the Luteinizing Hormone (LH) surge produced by the anterior pituitary gland; this LH surge is normally just 2 - 3 days per season. You can start testing with the pads as early as day 1 of her season.

We suggest an early start in case you have missed a few days of bleeding or colour, or if your bitches have silent seasons. For best results you can test morning and evening, wipe the vulva area clean, open the vulva, and gently place the pad about 1 – 3 cm’s inside, place the pads sideways into the vulva so the pad soaks up vaginal fluid and hold in place for a count of 10 to 15 seconds. Do not touch the pink part of the pad; this may lead to a false or incorrect result. For those who have tried the electronic ovulation meters with the metal probe, you will be happy to know that the pads are not cold and give a far more accurate reading on the LH surge that triggers ovulation. They do have sharp corners, so insert carefully.

After 10 to 15 seconds remove the pad and ensure it is soaked with vaginal fluid, wait for 30 to 120 seconds*, if the pad remains pink with no colour change at all, your bitch has not released her LH yet. If the pad starts to turn colour from Pink to Purple/Burgundy even if there is just one small spot or corner change of colour this is a positive result and your bitch's LH has started to surge. The pad colour change normally lasts for 3 days and the 2nd day is when the LH spike occurs. You can expect that she will ovulate during the next 24 to 48 hours after the LH spike and plan her mating. If left longer than a few minutes the pads will naturally go darker in the air. Take note of the initial change only. Continue to test your bitch so you know exactly the day of ovulation. From the day of ovulation, the pads will remain pink with no colour change confirming the LH surge has passed.

* With shipments that are really fresh from the manufacturer, the change of colour may take 2 to 3 minutes. With pads that have been stored for awhile, the reading should occur in 30 to 60 seconds.

Ovulation is triggered by the LH surge which causes the ovaries to release the developing eggs. The eggs cannot be fertilized upon immediate release from the ovaries. However, normally during the 24 - 96 hour period after the eggs are released they become sperm friendly and are ready to be fertilized. The fertilization will normally last for 72 hours (3 days). Mating 3 days in a row from the first day of fertilization will give the best reproduction results. Do note that not all females run to the "normal" cycle. The charts below will help you to understand when to mate your bitch for optimum results.

For a "normal" bitch the best mating days will be 4th, 5th, and 6th days after the LH spike (the day the pads turn very dark all over). Our chart below shows mating on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th days to cover the cases where the bitch's ovulation and ripening cycle is may be 24 hours shorter. Because the male sperm can live up to 5 days in the bitch, we feel that in providing general guidelines for breeders, mating a day earlier is better than mating too late.

I am also going to be testing out another tester which is supposed to help determine those fertile days...So until I get that and female comes into heat the jury is still out on that gadget. But if it works will be great better then running to get progesterone tests and breeding to late specially if an AI is in order.

[nanney1]

Picked up the dogs and well, who knows. Vet did an AI in the morning and again in the afternoon. Said that on the male's first collection, his volume was very low but that the sperm that were there looked good.

Said in the afternoon he had good volume, but she could see no sperm. She went ahead and AI'd a second time just in case she didn't see any that were there.

On the plus side, she did use a long pipette that allows her to bypass the cervix. This method works well for frozen, or poor quality semen. I would say the odds aren't great but you never know.

I would have expected greater volume on the first collection.

[nanney1]

We're at a little over a week and a half past the AI breeding. Have no idea whether or not the breeding took or not. However, my female is obsessively hungry the last two to three days. She has eaten her food so fast the last few days that she has gotten a piece hung up in her throat a few times. After eating, she is constantly on the search for more food. This is not her normal behavior.

I have always read to keep the amount of food the same until the last 3 weeks.

On the other hand, I've also read that in some cases, a bred bitch will show signs of increased hunger within a week or so of being bred.

I've noticed the food behavior but ignored it. But in the last day or two, everyone in the family has noticed and commented that she seems hungry and that we should feed her more.

[nanney1]

Planning for an ultrasound. Vet said 20 days or 3 weeks from breeding. I've read 25 days, or 30-35. Anxious to find out, but don't want to have to pay for two. So, considering day 23, 27, or 34. I thought that 20 days sounded early so I called back and the answer was that they could do a reading at 3 weeks post breeding.

Anyone with experience with ultrasound?

[slistoe]

Only did it once. We used 28 days. Bunch of walnuts.

[nanney1]

Can you clarify? Does "bunch of walnuts" mean that's what the pups looked like on the ultrasound, or that it was a waste of time?

[slistoe]

looked like that.

Was really a waste of time and money though - either the dog has pups at 9 weeks or they don't. Nothing about an ultrasound is going to change that.

[SCT]

An Xray at 53-55 days might be more enlightening. You'll see skulls and spinal columns. Cheaper too, I believe.

[ezzy333]

looked like that.

Was really a waste of time and money though - either the dog has pups at 9 weeks or they don't. Nothing about an ultrasound is going to change that.

I agree. You can usually tell if she is carrying pups between 21 to 28 days anyways.

Ezzy

[deseeker]

I had an ultrasound done in 1993($45 back then) because this was my first litter of pups. Vet couldn't see any pups. He then felt around and said she was going to have a small litter---he could only feel 3 pups. She ended up whelping 9 pups. After that I decided it was cheaper to just wait and see what happened in 9 weeks :roll: An xray when they are farther along is probably the best way IMO

[Munster]

I think it depends.
I just bred my male and female. Male has been having count problems. SO I plan on having her checked around 35 days. If she isnt pregnant.back to work training for VGP/UT. If she is pregnant, than it is time to get whelping stuff together. But by paying the 60 bucks to check, i will save the hundreds I might spend getting supplies ready for no litter.

So, I think it has its place.

[slistoe]

I think it depends.
I just bred my male and female. Male has been having count problems. SO I plan on having her checked around 35 days. If she isnt pregnant.back to work training for VGP/UT. If she is pregnant, than it is time to get whelping stuff together. But by paying the 60 bucks to check, i will save the hundreds I might spend getting supplies ready for no litter.

So, I think it has its place.

I guess if you have no whelping set up at all and don't plan to use one ever in the future (a one time, one shot deal) then it would be wise.