Any of you feed raw?

[kibafang90]

Cooked food vs raw vs kibble.

[MonsterDad]

I keep beef hearts and green tripe on hand. Eggs of course are always here.

Personally, I don't see much value in going all raw but hearts, tripe and raw egg yolks are nice to add.

Beef hearts are very easy to get. Tripe can be depending on where you live. If you have access to a ranch slaughter go with coolers and grab it. Split it, rinse it in cold water, slice it up and freeze it. The fourth chamber which produces the rennet and enzymes is unbelievably foul but the dogs love it.

[ezzy333]

Have never found a need to and I sure don't need the extra work and expense with no pay back.

Ezzy

[gotpointers]

I keep beef hearts and green tripe on hand. Eggs of course are always here.

Personally, I don't see much value in going all raw but hearts, tripe and raw egg yolks are nice to add.

Beef hearts are very easy to get. Tripe can be depending on where you live. If you have access to a ranch slaughter go with coolers and grab it. Split it, rinse it in cold water, slice it up and freeze it. The fourth chamber which produces the rennet and enzymes is unbelievably foul but the dogs love it.

Is that the basketball size one with the multiple flaps?

[Sharon]

If you put "feed raw" into the search bar above you will get LOTS of opinions/advice.

[MonsterDad]

I keep beef hearts and green tripe on hand. Eggs of course are always here.

Personally, I don't see much value in going all raw but hearts, tripe and raw egg yolks are nice to add.

Beef hearts are very easy to get. Tripe can be depending on where you live. If you have access to a ranch slaughter go with coolers and grab it. Split it, rinse it in cold water, slice it up and freeze it. The fourth chamber which produces the rennet and enzymes is unbelievably foul but the dogs love it.

Is that the basketball size one with the multiple flaps?

Its the chamber attached to the small intestine. It has lots of flaps inside and its light in color. The two bigger chambers are dark and more rubbery and they look like they dark fibers on them.

I have only picked-up whole tripes a few times and its been under the cover of darkness given its illegal for real butchers to handle and store it.

Splitting that fourth chamber reminded me of the smell of ammonia mixed with a summer road kill.

You can buy it frozen in log form pretty easily and if you leave it the fridge for a few days its start to get really nasty.

I haven't found a food the dogs like more though and never have I seen them get loose or gassy on it, even giving them a big bowl cold turkey.

[kibafang90]

eww tripe..

[walkos5]

I have been feeding my Britt a mostly raw diet since he was 8 weeks old and he is very healthy and has lots of energy. He is almost 3 now and the only thing he has seen the vet for is his semi annual rabies shot.

[kibafang90]

I have been feeding my Britt a mostly raw diet since he was 8 weeks old and he is very healthy and has lots of energy. He is almost 3 now and the only thing he has seen the vet for is his semi annual rabies shot.

eww semi annual rabies shot..

[ezzy333]

I have been feeding my Britt a mostly raw diet since he was 8 weeks old and he is very healthy and has lots of energy. He is almost 3 now and the only thing he has seen the vet for is his semi annual rabies shot.

I would think that is pretty much normal for most puppies except for the rabies. Rabies is normally required at the most annually but then goes to every three years.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

This is about the time of year big pork shoulders go on sale. Last year @ $.25lb. Good deal, cut em up in chunks and freeze them.

[walkos5]

I try to buy any kind of chicken parts or pork and beef when my local supermarket has those about to expire stickers on them. It's usually half the normal cost so I can save money and still feed my pup a good diet. I like to mix veggies and sometimes rice in with his food to provide extra nutrients. His rabies shot was given at about 8 months old and his second about 2 .5 and now I can ask my vet to test him every 2 years and see if the vaccine is still active and he can go 3 or more years without another shot. I'm not big on getting him shots but he is a hunting dog and tends to come across lots of other animals afield. He's already had 2 scraps with the local porcupines, luckily they were young ones.

[RickB]

Feeding a diet that consists solely of raw food will result in energy deficiencies when hunting your dog, if the dog is a flushing or pointing breed. Raw food is mostly water. To get a similar energy level, you need to feed more raw... a lot more. So much so that the dog may be full before it gets its required energy fill.

If you wish to feed straight raw (and there may be very good reasons to do so), you will want to add some lard or oil to the diet for hunting and cold weather.

In other words, the fat content is too low. I haven't looked into protein levels...they may be too low also.


Rick

[walkos5]

I leave the skin and fat on any chicken as well as all the bones in, and same goes for any other cuts of meat I feed him. I also give him 2 or 3 raw eggs per week for added protein some liver once or twice per week along with an assortment of veggies and some fruit. He always has loads of energy afield but he does require a lot more food after a long days hunt. On hunt days I usually do a before and after feed.

[displaced_texan]

Have never found a need to and I sure don't need the extra work and expense with no pay back.

Ezzy

Most people I've talked to or read that have done the math have said it works out to be about the same or less money than what they were feeding before.

[birddog1968]

The dogs at the National Championship (3 hrs) eat dry dog food, good enough for me......I don't think many dogs expend more energy than that, and they are built like brick #($% houses

[ezzy333]

Have never found a need to and I sure don't need the extra work and expense with no pay back.

Ezzy

Most people I've talked to or read that have done the math have said it works out to be about the same or less money than what they were feeding before.

Probably could be if you don't charge for your time and labor, don't figure in the cost of a scale so you can proportion the ingredients uniformally instead of feeding a little to day and a lot tomorrow like everyone does. Plus you need to check how much water there is in each ingredient or you will have no idea how much dry matter they are consuming. Also the extra fridge to keep everything from spoiling. I agree that raw feed is good but no one and I mean no one measures and mixes properly and have no idea what their dog need or what they are feeding.

Ezzy

[gotpointers]

I know times have changed and our dog food has advanced if you're willing to pay the price. But from what I know the greyhound guy's that are still left are still feeding raw meat. What confirms to me that the old way is the better way is that my relative trucker made deliveries lately to their supplier and got the scoop on where the meat he delivered is going to.

Another insight I have into it is my good buddy who taught me how to train birddogs. He was one of the main greyhound trainers and breeders in the late 70s and early 80s. Before that he was the assistant to Harvey Butler running and training setters and pointers on the big circuit. His Greyhounds that were competing or were in training always ate raw meat. I never asked about the diet on the birddogs at Harvey's. He's feeding bag food now due to his age and health. But he still insists raw meat is the best way to go.

[Sharon]

The dogs at the National Championship (3 hrs) eat dry dog food, good enough for me......I don't think many dogs expend more energy than that, and they are built like brick #($% houses

My position too. LOL

[MonsterDad]

Feeding a diet that consists solely of raw food will result in energy deficiencies when hunting your dog, if the dog is a flushing or pointing breed. Raw food is mostly water. To get a similar energy level, you need to feed more raw... a lot more. So much so that the dog may be full before it gets its required energy fill.

If you wish to feed straight raw (and there may be very good reasons to do so), you will want to add some lard or oil to the diet for hunting and cold weather.

In other words, the fat content is too low. I haven't looked into protein levels...they may be too low also.


Rick

You would normally feed 3% of body weight, so a 65lb dog would eat 2lbs of raw food. Just as a guide, raw hamburger has about 1,300 calories per lb, 71% fat calories and 65 grams of protein. Raw chicken quarters have about 1,000 calories per lb, 70% fat calories and about 90 grams of protein.

For most foods 2,000 calories from 2lbs of chicken is 4-5 cups of kibble. To get to 180 grams of protein you would need 6 cups of a 30% protein kibble.

[ezzy333]

Feeding a diet that consists solely of raw food will result in energy deficiencies when hunting your dog, if the dog is a flushing or pointing breed. Raw food is mostly water. To get a similar energy level, you need to feed more raw... a lot more. So much so that the dog may be full before it gets its required energy fill.

If you wish to feed straight raw (and there may be very good reasons to do so), you will want to add some lard or oil to the diet for hunting and cold weather.

In other words, the fat content is too low. I haven't looked into protein levels...they may be too low also.


Rick

You would normally feed 3% of body weight, so a 65lb dog would eat 2lbs of raw food. Just as a guide, raw hamburger has about 1,300 calories per lb, 71% fat calories and 65 grams of protein. Raw chicken quarters have about 1,000 calories per lb, 70% fat calories and about 90 grams of protein. For most foods 2,000 calories from 2lbs of chicken is 4-5 cups of kibble. To get to 180 grams of protein you would need 6 cups of a 30% protein kibble.

You better recheck your figures

Ezzy

[kibafang90]

Have never found a need to and I sure don't need the extra work and expense with no pay back.

Ezzy

Most people I've talked to or read that have done the math have said it works out to be about the same or less money than what they were feeding before.

And a thousand times better for the dog than cheap kibble.

[kibafang90]

Im so hungry now.. after reading these posts...

[brdhntr]

Feeding raw is most certainly not more expense it is for me cheaper. Where I live I need to drive 35 miles to by decent dog food, the butcher is 1 mile away. Every Tuesday they slaughter and have lots of very affordable organs and meat. A butcher generally can't utilize most organ meats. I buy liver for about 20 cents a pound and kidneys for 10 cents. I also very often get 80-20 ground beef for 99 cents. There is no significant time investment and my dogs energy levels are noticeably higher. Just recently a friend of mine refereed to one of my short hairs as looking like a bodybuilder dog on steroids. My other short hair is almost 11 and a very reputable pro trainer refused to believe his age. He looks so good and is so healthy and active it's amazing. The only slightly noticeable deterioration is his hearing.

[walkos5]

OK lets look at this discussion from another angle. From what I have read commercial dog food was never sold on store shelves until the early 1950s so what did everyone feed their dogs before then? I guess all the hunting dogs before 1950s were unhealthy. Can anyone recall grandpas dog or dogs as being unhealthy?

[ezzy333]

The majority of our customers were feeding baby pig creep feed. It contained a lot of rolled oats, wheat midds, powdered milk, whey, ground corn, and some sugar, and of course the vitamins and minerals baby pigs need. And many baked corn bread every week. On the farm they used sour milk along with the table scraps. There were a couple of winters we would have a calf or a pig die and it would be pulled around behind the building where the dogs could lay and chew on the frozen carcasses.

The dogs always looked good but usually they would show a little more bloom when they had the meat and bones available but as we all know it takes a balanced ration if they were going to be healthy and the dogs were pretty good at doing that by themselves. They spent a good amount of time in the corn cribs and in the pig feeders eating either shelled corn or chewing it off of the ear. The corn crib was their feed station during the day and the cow barn every morning and evening at milking time.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

OK lets look at this discussion from another angle. From what I have read commercial dog food was never sold on store shelves until the early 1950s so what did everyone feed their dogs before then? I guess all the hunting dogs before 1950s were unhealthy. Can anyone recall grandpas dog or dogs as being unhealthy?

My Dad bred beagles in the 50s- 70s. after the war. He used to go on Fridays to the construction site food trucks and take end of week food off their hands. ... sandwiches, meat pies, salads, raisin buns, soups, old corn on the cob, cereals etc. for the dogs. He also fed them left over parts of deer,rabbit etc. Dogs were always energetic, rarin" to go and healthy. I can't even remember a sick dog.

[polmaise]

Watching all them wildlife programmes such as the wolf running down it's prey ,or a pride of lions catching a zebra.
I have yet to see one of them where the 'hunter' selects the cuts of meat from it's prey such as the Fillet ,sirloin or ribeye ? They all gorge themselves on the stomach ?
What's all that about ?
........................
I feed mine raw green tripe !and everything else that comes their way !even the eggshells after I've had mine over easy

I think they look okay !

[walkos5]

I'm not trying to bash the dog food companies, I just want those of you out there who might be thinking of feeding raw that you can feed your dog a raw diet or home made diet and your pup will do just fine. But do gather as much information as you can, because there is lots of good information out there that will help. I have been feeding my Britt a raw diet since he was a puppy and he is doing just great. Your dogs look awesome....

[ezzy333]

Polmaise,

The stomach provides the vegetable carbs and protein plus many of the vitamins that they need to stay healthy. The blood and organs had to be consumed on spot while much of the carcass could be carried off and stored for future use.

It seems that normally I am concerned when someone decides to feed raw animal products and tell us how much better it is. I don't want anyone thinking that I am saying raw is not good. What I am saying, and it is pointed out in every feeding test that I have read is the lack of consistency more than negates any gain you can get. In other words when someone decides to feed a chicken leg today and a beef heart tomorrow, you are not feeding the proper amount of proteins, carbs, and minerals from one day to the next. In this example the meat source is completely different with a huge variance in the chemical make up of the feed plus in most cases a large difference in the amount you feed everyday.

Just to equal what the big bad feed company does we are needing a good scale calibrated in pounds, ounces, and grams, a good mixer to incorporate the exact amount of each ingredient into a homogenous product that will deliver a product that is the same today as tomorrow, with the ultimate nutrition for the dogs needs everyday or we are just kidding ourselves when we think our home made product is better for our dogs than the feed we buy over the counter.

Ezzy

[polmaise]

Thanks ezzy333
The fresh blood and quickly dissolved stuff makes sense!
............
I don't just feed raw either ?..I feed them everything!!..
I also eat almost everything, I call it balanced. Because the odd chinese takeaway,or indian curry don't kill me!
I don't eat steak every day either!...I would get bored with that!

The manufacturers of dry kibble would obviously disagree?...
But there are some good stuff out there, but like everything and life ..sort the wheat', from the chaff'.
More often than not!..anything that is not advertised is as good as something that requires it? ...and usually 1/10th of the cost.

[walkos5]

I don't measure my dogs food out but I do feed a variety of meats to him, with chicken being the biggest part of his diet, and I always include bones skin and muscle with any meats I feed him. I also include beef or chicken liver once or twice a week. Raw eggs are also part of his diet along with a small amount of fruit and veggies. I don't feel the need to measure out any of his food because adding a variety of foods to his diet allows him to get the nutrients he needs over time. However during hunting season or days where he has had more exercise than normal I do tend to give him a little more to eat. As humans most of us don't go around measuring what we eat every day but we do eat a variety of foods for proper nutrition. Now I know a dogs nutritional needs are somewhat different then ours but the same principal applies in that were not trying to provide all his necessary nutrients in one meal but over time with a variety of suitable foods he will get what he needs to be healthy. I have to admit its kind of fun watching the faces of other dog owners watching my dog chew up a chicken leg skin bones and all and swallow it in a few seconds.

[RickB]

MonsterDad:

I don't follow your math.

Let me simplify things: Raw hamburger 85% lean. That means it is 15% fat. A quick google check shows that hamburger has 20 grams of protein per 120 grams of meat. This source did not say what leanness it was. 20g over 120g is 16% protein.

If raw hamburger were in a dog food can, the crude analysis would read 16% protein and 15% fat. I feed a kibble that is 33% protein and 20% fat.

Lets assume you feed a pound of this kibble a day. 33% of a pound means there is 5.25 ounces of protein. 20% means there is 3.2 ounces of fat.

To get the same amount by weight of protein and fat, you would need to feed 2 pounds of hamburger (as compared to the 1 pound of kibble).

RickB

[SD44]

I have tried it with my oldest GSP. I couldn't pin point exactly what would make him so gassy and his stools were so loose it made clean up almost impossible. It didn't matter what we fed him, his system just couldn't handle it. Went back to Purina Pro Plan Sport and haven't looked back. He is still a little gassy from the kibble but no where near what it was like when we fed him a RAW diet.

[Cajun Casey]

OK lets look at this discussion from another angle. From what I have read commercial dog food was never sold on store shelves until the early 1950s so what did everyone feed their dogs before then? I guess all the hunting dogs before 1950s were unhealthy. Can anyone recall grandpas dog or dogs as being unhealthy?

They fed a lot of horsemeat, both canned and slaughterhouse packed. Look up the history of Evanger's.

[MonsterDad]

OK lets look at this discussion from another angle. From what I have read commercial dog food was never sold on store shelves until the early 1950s so what did everyone feed their dogs before then? I guess all the hunting dogs before 1950s were unhealthy. Can anyone recall grandpas dog or dogs as being unhealthy?

They fed a lot of horsemeat, both canned and slaughterhouse packed. Look up the history of Evanger's.

Canning horse meat for dogs was a good way to get rid of old and diseased horses. Before kibble came around, the predominant commercial food was canned food and it was largely horse meat. Perhaps in rural areas, hog or piglet feed was used, but in the urban and suburban areas, canned food was the major form of commercial dog food.

[walkos5]

I wish we still had those old slaughter houses. I remember people getting free or cheap scraps of meat for their dogs. Those days are gone, our local grocery stores sell everything. No more free soup bones.

[walkos5]

Brdhntr,

I just wanted to say my dog is also extremely healthy too on the raw diet. Last year I hunted with a friend of mine and his GSP, I was told that my dog has the energy of 3 dogs, all I could say was it must be what I'm feeding him.

[MonsterDad]

There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?

[walkos5]

MonsterDad,

I think we do, and once you learn how to feed raw its not really any more expensive than buying dry food and can even be cheaper if you know how to find the deals out there. But lets remember something, we live in a generation that thrives itself on pre packaged foods. Everyone likes to throw a bag of food in the microwave so they can eat in 5 minutes. I think it is hard core hunters like us who want to what's best for our dogs because they are that important to us. Again I'm not trying to bash the dog food companies I just feel that a more natural diet is better for any living thing. I heard a great saying a while back, If it grows on a plant then eat it, but if its made in a plant leave it alone...

[ezzy333]

There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?

I have no idea what that would have to do with ethics any more than forcing ours to eat a healthy diet which in not close to our original diet. I think you answered your own question though with the statement

assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?[/

. But before we get too deep into this lets all agree on what ethics really is. If it is ethical it has to be possible.

Ezzy

[brdhntr]

As a side note, one of the reasons I like to feed raw is because there is no tax. I find it disturbing that to feed my dog dry food the government first must collect 7.125%.

[Sharon]

"I think they look okay !" quote Polonaise
[/quote]

.................................

They sure do. Beautiful picture!

[displaced_texan]

There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?

I have no idea what that would have to do with ethics any more than forcing ours to eat a healthy diet which in not close to our original diet. I think you answered your own question though with the statement

assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?[/

. But before we get too deep into this lets all agree on what ethics really is. If it is ethical it has to be possible.

Ezzy

I have no idea what you're trying to say... I mean we all know you're against feeding raw, but beyond that your words make no sense.

[walkos5]

SD44,

I was just wondering how you went about introducing your GSP to a raw diet, because lots of people have problems when they try switching their dogs to a raw diet if it is not done very gradually?

[ezzy333]

There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?

I have no idea what that would have to do with ethics any more than forcing ours to eat a healthy diet which in not close to our original diet. I think you answered your own question though with the statement

assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?[/

. But before we get too deep into this lets all agree on what ethics really is. If it is ethical it has to be possible.

Ezzy

I have no idea what you're trying to say... I mean we all know you're against feeding raw, but beyond that your words make no sense.

It really helps me when I wonder what I am fore or against to be able to read your post and find out. I am still wondering why though since I don't care whether anyone wants to feed raw. If you do< I want you to know the negative side as well as the positive, as most people think feeding raw means going to the store, buying a piece of chicken and giving it your dog each day. And there is a lot more to it if you are going to do it right and provide all the nutrients that a dog needs on a daily basis. Lots of money for the essential equipment and a whole lot more time and work, plus after you do all of that you still need to send the feed to a lab so you know what you are feeding.

You did forget to tell me that it is funny that it is often the same people who experiment with feeding raw that has no ingredient list that spent so much time reading dry food lists and worried about the formulation of the feed.

I am losing faith in you when you forget stuff like this.

Ezzy

[displaced_texan]

I have no idea what that would have to do with ethics any more than forcing ours to eat a healthy diet which in not close to our original diet. I think you answered your own question though with the statement. But before we get too deep into this lets all agree on what ethics really is. If it is ethical it has to be possible.

Ezzy

I have no idea what you're trying to say... I mean we all know you're against feeding raw, but beyond that your words make no sense.

It really helps me when I wonder what I am fore or against to be able to read your post and find out. I am still wondering why though since I don't care whether anyone wants to feed raw. If you do< I want you to know the negative side as well as the positive, as most people think feeding raw means going to the store, buying a piece of chicken and giving it your dog each day. And there is a lot more to it if you are going to do it right and provide all the nutrients that a dog needs on a daily basis. Lots of money for the essential equipment and a whole lot more time and work, plus after you do all of that you still need to send the feed to a lab so you know what you are feeding.

You did forget to tell me that it is funny that it is often the same people who experiment with feeding raw that has no ingredient list that spent so much time reading dry food lists and worried about the formulation of the feed.

I am losing faith in you when you forget stuff like this.

Ezzy

Thanks for clarification of nothing I was asking about in that post...

I have no dog in this fight, no interest in feeding raw, and am not aware of any of my associates that do it. I do however have a great interest in an intelligent discussion on the subject, not just your dismissal of it as a poor idea.

I'm far from denying it's a lot of effort to do properly, but I will say that isn't a barrier or problem for everyone. There are things I do "the hard way" because I think the end results are worth it. Sometimes I just enjoy and take satisfaction in the process, despite any real reason or benefits to taking that route.

I couldn't care less what you think of me to be honest, feel free to loose all the faith you want, I won't loose a bit of sleep over it.

I'm happy to play Devil's Advocate, because I'm not scared of your fancy colored name. I am a firm believer in the value of passionate debate, not just a bunch of people following a self professed expert.

[Cajun Casey]

If anyone would like accurate information on raw feeding, try www.mercola.com.

[gotpointers]

Thanks for the link Felisha. I checked it out and would like to repost this from their site.


"you'll find meat meals in pet foods, inclupoultry meal, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal. 'Meal' signifies that these ingredients are not fresh; they are "rendered".

Rendering is the process where various ingredients are emptied into a large vat and boiled for several hours. These high temperatures can damage proteins and destroy natural enzymes.

From a health standpoint, denatured proteins from high processing temperatures can lead to food allergies and intolerances and inflammatory bowel disease.

But here's what's so controversial: In addition to food animal scraps, rendering, by law, can include grocery store expired meat (Styrofoam wrapping intact), road kill, diseased and disabled (and dead) cattle, and even euthanized pets.

Pet food companies claim they no longer process dead dogs and cats (insiders admit they previously did), but the FDA has found pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in rendered meat-and-bone meal and animal fat.

If your pet food label states one or more named meats such as "chicken" or "lamb", they are not by-products. However, they are still mostly leftover scraps and bones. "Chicken" consists of backs, spines and ribs, with minimal meat left on the bones. And yes, bones can count as protein!

Unless the label on your pet's food states that the food is "safe for human consumption", you can bet the protein source is less-than-optimal."

[birddogger]

Wow, it is a wonder any of my dogs ever survived past a year.

Charlie