Advice on a breeding situation

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John S
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Advice on a breeding situation

Post by John S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:31 am

Not sure if this is the right place to post this so please move it if necessary.
Last night I got a call from a member of the Hunt club that has a Brittany Bitch just going into heat. He's watched Scout develop and how he works in the field through last season and wants Scout to breed his bitch.
There is a part of me that says sure no problem, but there is also a part of me that is a bit apprehensive (cautious) because I want to be sure that I am doing the right thing for the breed.
Before I make a decision I think there is some information I need and I will list it below. Please take a look and offer up any other advice or things I should look for to make a decision.
Scout is now 18mos old and I really had not thought about breeding him until he had won either a NAVHDA UTP/UT or AKC conformation.
So here are my initial questions:
  • How old is the bitch
  • Is this her first "heat"
  • Can I see a three generation copy of her bloodline
  • Do you have a potential list of homes for the litter
  • Have any deposits been placed
  • What do you intend to sell pups for
He has stated that he would be willing to go for either a pup or a stud fee, makes no difference to him. SO my last question for you all would be How to determine a Stud fee? I am not in the position to take on another pup at this time.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Doc E » Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:35 am

I don't know about Britts, but with Labs, a number of genetic tests need to be done.
OFA for both hips and elbows (can't be done until 24 months of age)
CERF
CNM
EIC
PRA

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:12 am

I agree with Doc. Both dog and bitch should at least be OFA certified. You should research the OFA history in the family tree. I would not breed a bitch on her 1st heat. Both dogs should wait until after certification (2yrs old) Other than that, you have covered a lot.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:57 am

I had a similar situation. My male was tested in many venues and fully health tested but the female was still only a year. I asked female owner who contacted me to wait and have her OFA and brucellosis tested, checked by a vet for heart or other issues at a minimum. I explained how I loved the breed, how so many breeds have slid back due to poor choices for parents... Told him I required those things but was also happy to help him with any questions and that everybody starts somewhere. Also that his female needed to be mature at least 2 and it was only fair to her since whelping is no easy task on a female. HE listened and was happy to "do things right ' and the breeding took place a year later after her OFA came back excellent and vet check looked good.
So my advice.... ask him to wait until the next cycleor two and your OFA results and thorough vet check. Also require that from her as well and BRUCELLOSIS test too.
If its not worth waiting for then its not worth the risk!!

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by John S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:21 am

Thanks for the information everyone. I'm glad I posted here. I have not spoke to the owner yet since he has only left me a voicemail, but I'll be sure to find out how old his bitch is and whether she has been bred before as well. I'll be doing some more research on my own as well.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by cjhills » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:23 am

Pretty much what everyone else says. I would not have a problem with preliminary x-rays on the male especially at 18 months. Have to do it again at two years so it is a added expense but would want it to be at least the second cycle on the female and at least 2 yrs. old.
Conformation on both dogs is important.
Brucellosis tests on both for sure. almost no chance either would have it, but it is final if one does.
Some kind of a written understanding of what each expects. Cj

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by deseeker » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:33 am

I'd also tell him You'd like to watch his female on birds. If she isn't any good on birds, and doesn't hunt, you aren't helping the breed any. Unless they are 2 years old and OFAd they are too young too breed IMO. As far as stud fee goes, ask him what he is going to sell the pups for---you should get at least what a pup sells for(my last OFA cost me $200 by the time I was done with the vet and sent the money to OFA---so you would have at least that much invested in this breeding---my last brucellosis test was around $40, so that will be in your cost as well). You are asking the right questions.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:01 am

I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by John S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:12 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Not arguing the point, just questioning the definition of "immature". I can see for the Bitch since whelping can be pretty stressful, but how does maturity come into play for a stud? Are the little swimmers not strong enough? When I read immature I think mentally, are you meaning physically? IS you mean physically I can understand although I had not really considered it for the male.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Munster » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:33 am

Really glad to see that more breeders are testing for BRUCELLOSIS. SOme think that if the dog has never bred before that they dont need it.....not true. Test anyway.
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:09 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Don't tell the EP/ES field trial world that. ;) Young males are bred a lot. Breeders want to know what they got and they may not want to wait around 2-3 years to see if he is a producer. Not a big deal for the male. But yes, more of a physical issue for a young female

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:47 am

PntrRookie wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Don't tell the EP/ES field trial world that. ;) Young males are bred a lot. Breeders want to know what they got and they may not want to wait around 2-3 years to see if he is a producer. Not a big deal for the male. But yes, more of a physical issue for a young female
Brittanys' have a history of hip dysplasia and that is why you wait until they are 2 and can be OFA certified. From what I understand, Pointers and Setters have never had a dysplasia problem. Responsible Brittany Breeders do not breed without OFA certifications.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by rinker » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:41 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Don't tell the EP/ES field trial world that. Young males are bred a lot. Breeders want to know what they got and they may not want to wait around 2-3 years to see if he is a producer. Not a big deal for the male. But yes, more of a physical issue for a young female

In the EP/ES field trial world, the 18 month olds are often 30 months old. :mrgreen:

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by kninebirddog » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:18 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
PntrRookie wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Don't tell the EP/ES field trial world that. ;) Young males are bred a lot. Breeders want to know what they got and they may not want to wait around 2-3 years to see if he is a producer. Not a big deal for the male. But yes, more of a physical issue for a young female
Brittanys' have a history of hip dysplasia and that is why you wait until they are 2 and can be OFA certified. From what I understand, Pointers and Setters have never had a dysplasia problem. Responsible Brittany Breeders do not breed without OFA certifications.

Actually E Setter are higher then Brittanys for Dysplasia Ep's are a little lower E Setters are 58 on the list Brittanys are 68 on E Pointer is 116 the list http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html and the Bulldog still remains number 1 for Hip Dysplasia

And FYI if people put down their FDSB numbers on the OFA certs reports are sent to American Field and they are posted on the litter registration and the dogs registrations papers....and IF they are Microchipped and the Vet verifies that microchip then those OFA results will be posted on the AKC cert provided that the AKC registration number is also given
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:44 pm

I stand corrected on the long tails. I guess I have been listening to the pointer / setter people rather than checking the facts. Never the less, Responsible Brittany Breeders get their "breeding stock" OFA'ed.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by shags » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:58 pm

Last time I looked there weren't many FDSB setters and pointers on the OFA list. I'd guess most of those there are bench dogs. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by kninebirddog » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:10 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I stand corrected on the long tails. I guess I have been listening to the pointer / setter people rather than checking the facts. Never the less, Responsible Brittany Breeders get their "breeding stock" OFA'ed.
Bottom line you are correct Breeding Stock OFA'd as even though a dog may be jumping around even winning 1 hour stakes trialing hunting hard all day long it doesn't mean that the hips will pass OFA.

Then yes thoughts on what will you do with those pups that do not sell ...do they quickly become bottom shelf bargain bin panic to get rid of puppies.

There should be a lot of thought about having a litter of pups the easy part is tossing two dogs in an area to do what comes natural
Hard part is to really be honest as to what those two dogs really bring to the table other then a batch of cute little puppies :wink:
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by John S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:02 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote: There should be a lot of thought about having a litter of pups the easy part is tossing two dogs in an area to do what comes natural
Hard part is to really be honest as to what those two dogs really bring to the table other then a batch of cute little puppies :wink:
Exactly my reason for posting. Although I do not consider myself a "Breeder" I do want to be responsible for whatever offspring Scout sires.
I'll let everyone know what happens once I actually speak to the owner of the bitch. That will tell me how responsible he is about breeding.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:14 pm

John S wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Not arguing the point, just questioning the definition of "immature". I can see for the Bitch since whelping can be pretty stressful, but how does maturity come into play for a stud? Are the little swimmers not strong enough? When I read immature I think mentally, are you meaning physically? IS you mean physically I can understand although I had not really considered it for the male.

Immaturity does not have a sex......It is the same whether it's a male or female. They are not fully developed and proven worthy of reproduction....

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by John S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:29 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
John S wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I would not breed a 18 month old dog regardless of its sex. They are too immature.
Not arguing the point, just questioning the definition of "immature". I can see for the Bitch since whelping can be pretty stressful, but how does maturity come into play for a stud? Are the little swimmers not strong enough? When I read immature I think mentally, are you meaning physically? IS you mean physically I can understand although I had not really considered it for the male.

Immaturity does not have a sex......It is the same whether it's a male or female. They are not fully developed and proven worthy of reproduction....
Ok, then the obvious things such as OFA and genetic testing aside, at what point does a dog prove themselves "worthy" of reproduction? How much physical change will a dog go through from 18 to 24 months? How do we measure "mental" maturity?
Using Scout as an example he has proven himself to be an outstanding field dog, even at a young age. How much will a dog change (physically) between 18 and 24 months?

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:31 pm

John S wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote: There should be a lot of thought about having a litter of pups the easy part is tossing two dogs in an area to do what comes natural
Hard part is to really be honest as to what those two dogs really bring to the table other then a batch of cute little puppies :wink:
Exactly my reason for posting. Although I do not consider myself a "Breeder" I do want to be responsible for whatever offspring Scout sires.
I'll let everyone know what happens once I actually speak to the owner of the bitch. That will tell me how responsible he is about breeding.
Good Deal! :!: Sounds like you are willing to do the right thing. :)

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:49 pm

I am not the guy that weighed in on maturity but I suppose you can get a better picture of what your "finished product" will look like. Beyond health and genetics I suppose it becomes a personal decision based on your own feelings. I like to trial my dogs so more experienced, impartial people can give me feed back. If my dogs do well in the field, and health test well, I feel I am doing my level best as a breeder to put out very good dogs. I do what I can afford to do on the trialing side. It can be a very expensive evaluation process.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by wems2371 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:44 pm

John S wrote:Using Scout as an example he has proven himself to be an outstanding field dog, even at a young age. How much will a dog change (physically) between 18 and 24 months?
What makes him an outstanding field dog at 18 months old? He has one season under him, if I read your post right and calculated his age. How many wild birds has he been on? What field titles or placements does he have? I'm guessing he's not broke. What does it say to you, that you weren't contacted a month or two in advance, but right now--when the female is in heat? Besides you asking the female owner questions first, wouldn't you think they'd have had a list of questions for you in advance? When a female is already in heat, it's a little late to verify health testing and achievements, and this speaks of convenience to me. If you plan on ever breeding again, this is not how I personally would get started. If you're after a stud fee, to get a new pup in trade, or to be able to say your dog sired a litter...it will probably work out okay, pending no hip/health issues. People do it that way all the time.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by John S » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:58 pm

wems2371 wrote:
John S wrote:Using Scout as an example he has proven himself to be an outstanding field dog, even at a young age. How much will a dog change (physically) between 18 and 24 months?
What makes him an outstanding field dog at 18 months old? He has one season under him, if I read your post right and calculated his age. How many wild birds has he been on? What field titles or placements does he have? I'm guessing he's not broke. What does it say to you, that you weren't contacted a month or two in advance, but right now--when the female is in heat? Besides you asking the female owner questions first, wouldn't you think they'd have had a list of questions for you in advance? When a female is already in heat, it's a little late to verify health testing and achievements, and this speaks of convenience to me. If you plan on ever breeding again, this is not how I personally would get started. If you're after a stud fee, to get a new pup in trade, or to be able to say your dog sired a litter...it will probably work out okay, pending no hip/health issues. People do it that way all the time.
wems, I've come top respect your opinions and what you are saying makes perfect sense to me. Again, it's why I came here and asked the question instead of just jumping in and breeding the dogs. I'm in no hurry to breed Scout, and as I mentioned earlier I am certainly not wanting another pup at this time. Stud fee's, sure it would be nice but as with a pup I really6 do not need the money that badly.

As far as Scout being an "outstanding" field dog.... well, ok maybe I over emphasized a bit or even a lot... but you know all too well what I have faced with Scout the past couple of months and I am so happy with him for his recent progress that he can do almost no wrong (imo). I'm sure that will temper down a bit as we continue to work things out but right know I think he is the greatest dog in the world. :)

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by wems2371 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:07 pm

Just so you know it, I didn't mean to be a pain in the butt, and I certainly don't discount Scout's potential at all. I'd love to see more brittanys test in NAVHDA, and I hope you rock any future tests. After seeing your water video, I wish you could have a do-over at your NA. But on to bigger and better things!

Yes, "outstanding" caught me off guard :D , but I understand what you're saying about thinking he is the greatest dog in the world. Pretty sure I've been there too before! Just always be honest with yourself about his flaws too, whether it be conformational or in the field. And if you don't have the knowledge base yet to do so, find others that do. You're on the flip side of me, since I'm on the female/litter owning end, but it's how I look at attempting to build a better mousetrap. I've learned a lot from attending FTs, HTs, NAVHDA training/tests, German tests, dog shows, etc. I'm still a newb myself, but most everyone I encounter, has been extremely helpful. There is endless learning to be had, but I know you're off to a good start, with asking questions. :wink:

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:35 am

John S wrote:
wems2371 wrote:
John S wrote:Using Scout as an example he has proven himself to be an outstanding field dog, even at a young age. How much will a dog change (physically) between 18 and 24 months?
I'm sure that will temper down a bit as we continue to work things out but right know I think he is the greatest dog in the world. :)

Write down on paper his good qualities ...Then Be honest with yourself what are your dogs faults..what would you improve ..when you look to the female what does she bring to the plate? ( If I won't hunt/trial behind the dog I sure will not use it in my program)
All dogs have faults be sure that you are not breeding on the same fault
Temperament

We all have our greatest dog :wink: and rightfully so but when we can be objective and honest about what they truly bring t the table and build on that then we better the odds for the pups
nothing is a guarantee since we are not Gods but we can strive to do the best we can
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:31 am

wems2371 wrote:
John S wrote:Using Scout as an example he has proven himself to be an outstanding field dog, even at a young age. How much will a dog change (physically) between 18 and 24 months?
What makes him an outstanding field dog at 18 months old? He has one season under him, if I read your post right and calculated his age. How many wild birds has he been on? What field titles or placements does he have? I'm guessing he's not broke. What does it say to you, that you weren't contacted a month or two in advance, but right now--when the female is in heat? Besides you asking the female owner questions first, wouldn't you think they'd have had a list of questions for you in advance? When a female is already in heat, it's a little late to verify health testing and achievements, and this speaks of convenience to me. If you plan on ever breeding again, this is not how I personally would get started. If you're after a stud fee, to get a new pup in trade, or to be able to say your dog sired a litter...it will probably work out okay, pending no hip/health issues. People do it that way all the time.
Good post. I would question the motivation behind breeding the bitch, and be concerned that a sire was not previously lined up.

Nate

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by smoothbean » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:16 pm

shags wrote:Last time I looked there weren't many FDSB setters and pointers on the OFA list. I'd guess most of those there are bench dogs. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Interesting point Shags. Too bad the list doesn't show the difference in percentage between show and hunting stock in the hunting breeds.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Elkhunter » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:04 pm

I am a little surprised that so much emphasis is place on health testing, but proven/exposure in actual hunting situations, which is the whole reason we breed bird dogs was not even discussed till like 15 posts in. Health clearances are great and all, but you could end up with a really healthy perfectly formed dog that cant find a bird in its food bowl.

I would be more concerned about the proven ability from a hunting perspective versus health clearances.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:21 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I am a little surprised that so much emphasis is place on health testing, but proven/exposure in actual hunting situations, which is the whole reason we breed bird dogs was not even discussed till like 15 posts in. Health clearances are great and all, but you could end up with a really healthy perfectly formed dog that cant find a bird in its food bowl.

I would be more concerned about the proven ability from a hunting perspective versus health clearances.
My breeding stock is out of and bred by many Field Champions, National Field Champions and Hall of Fame Field Champions. My goal is to breed for high performance in the field but it's all a moot point if they are not genetically sound.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:50 pm

It may be a personal opinion to breed only to FC's but there are many dogs who will throw puppies capable of doing so that never did it themself. You wont know what that dog will produce in pups until it has litters to judge and even then, most dogs dont go to homes that want to compete with the dog. Based on the limited info that I read that only leaves health and pedigree to make my decision on. Hence the immaturity comment.

The OP did say that this was a "hunt club" guy so he wouldnt most likely be looking to place dogs in Trial homes so what would cause either dog to have those titles?

Watch the bitch work in the field, get the health certs on both sides and then make your decision. Dont forget that your dogs reputation is on the line so if you arent happy with how she works then back out of the deal.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:47 pm

Good bird dogs don't have to be FC's. In my opinion the only difference between an FC and a great hunting dog is the numerous experienced Judges looking at your dog and endorsing what you already knew.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:40 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:I am a little surprised that so much emphasis is place on health testing, but proven/exposure in actual hunting situations, which is the whole reason we breed bird dogs was not even discussed till like 15 posts in. Health clearances are great and all, but you could end up with a really healthy perfectly formed dog that cant find a bird in its food bowl.

I would be more concerned about the proven ability from a hunting perspective versus health clearances.
My breeding stock is out of and bred by many Field Champions, National Field Champions and Hall of Fame Field Champions. My goal is to breed for high performance in the field but it's all a moot point if they are not genetically sound.
Health tests are a moot point also if the dog cant find a bird....

I just see it a lot on here where the health clearances are promoted far and above the actual proven "hunting" experience in a dog. As if the dog is OFA'd etc then your good to go. What about a few seasons of wild bird hunting, multiple days on the ground, hunting different species in different terrain. The physical and mental ability to grind it out on tough hunts in bad conditions. That's what I would be wanting a pup out of! Sprinkle a few FT placements and your good to go! JMO though.

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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:27 pm

Elkhunter wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:I am a little surprised that so much emphasis is place on health testing, but proven/exposure in actual hunting situations, which is the whole reason we breed bird dogs was not even discussed till like 15 posts in. Health clearances are great and all, but you could end up with a really healthy perfectly formed dog that cant find a bird in its food bowl.

I would be more concerned about the proven ability from a hunting perspective versus health clearances.
My breeding stock is out of and bred by many Field Champions, National Field Champions and Hall of Fame Field Champions. My goal is to breed for high performance in the field but it's all a moot point if they are not genetically sound.
Health tests are a moot point also if the dog cant find a bird....

I just see it a lot on here where the health clearances are promoted far and above the actual proven "hunting" experience in a dog. As if the dog is OFA'd etc then your good to go. What about a few seasons of wild bird hunting, multiple days on the ground, hunting different species in different terrain. The physical and mental ability to grind it out on tough hunts in bad conditions. That's what I would be wanting a pup out of! Sprinkle a few FT placements and your good to go! JMO though.

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Elkhunter
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Elkhunter » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:56 pm

Finally!

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Vision
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by Vision » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:17 am

Elkhunter wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:I am a little surprised that so much emphasis is place on health testing, but proven/exposure in actual hunting situations, which is the whole reason we breed bird dogs was not even discussed till like 15 posts in. Health clearances are great and all, but you could end up with a really healthy perfectly formed dog that cant find a bird in its food bowl.

I would be more concerned about the proven ability from a hunting perspective versus health clearances.
My breeding stock is out of and bred by many Field Champions, National Field Champions and Hall of Fame Field Champions. My goal is to breed for high performance in the field but it's all a moot point if they are not genetically sound.
Health tests are a moot point also if the dog cant find a bird....

I just see it a lot on here where the health clearances are promoted far and above the actual proven "hunting" experience in a dog. As if the dog is OFA'd etc then your good to go. What about a few seasons of wild bird hunting, multiple days on the ground, hunting different species in different terrain. The physical and mental ability to grind it out on tough hunts in bad conditions. That's what I would be wanting a pup out of! Sprinkle a few FT placements and your good to go! JMO though.

They are both of importance. It's a two part exam that they need to pass.

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ezzy333
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Re: Advice on a breeding situation

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:18 pm

Vision wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:I am a little surprised that so much emphasis is place on health testing, but proven/exposure in actual hunting situations, which is the whole reason we breed bird dogs was not even discussed till like 15 posts in. Health clearances are great and all, but you could end up with a really healthy perfectly formed dog that cant find a bird in its food bowl.

I would be more concerned about the proven ability from a hunting perspective versus health clearances.
Health tests are a moot point also if the dog cant find a bird....

I just see it a lot on here where the health clearances are promoted far and above the actual proven "hunting" experience in a dog. As if the dog is OFA'd etc then your good to go. What about a few seasons of wild bird hunting, multiple days on the ground, hunting different species in different terrain. The physical and mental ability to grind it out on tough hunts in bad conditions. That's what I would be wanting a pup out of! Sprinkle a few FT placements and your good to go! JMO though.

They are both of importance. It's a two part exam that they need to pass.
Yep, a silly argument since they both are essential ingredients of a bird dog. I think why many look at health first is they already know the puppy comes from hunting stock.

Ezzy
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