Question regarding foods

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nanney1
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Question regarding foods

Post by nanney1 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:10 am

Here are two foods from the same manufacturer. One is a puppy formula, the other is an adult formula. The ingredient list is very similar.

Puppy - 27/12
Metabolizable Energy (ME)
3815 kcal/kg
1730 kcal/lb
399 kcal/cup

Adult - 21/10 (All Life Stages)
Metabolizable Energy (ME)
3701 kcal/kg
1679 kcal/lb
433 kcal/cup

Funny thing is the adult formula has a higher calorie count per 8 oz cup. The puppy formula has a higher protein and fat percentage and higher ME per kg/lb.

So, which is the more calorie dense food?

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ezzy333
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:39 am

The puppy food has more calories but the regular food is in a form that you get more weight in a cup. So I would say the puppy is the richest and the regular is more dense. However, density has little to do with nutrition and has a lot to do with how big a bag you need to hold 50 pounds.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
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dr tim
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by dr tim » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:43 am

The adult food is a smaller kibble, thus more in the 8 ounce measuring cup. Doesn't mean there is actually 8 ounces in either measuring cup, though.

Both of these foods look very poor from those numbers for dogs that are working dogs. I would find something else. 21/10 is far from a life stage type food.

nanney1
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by nanney1 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:The puppy food has more calories but the regular food is in a form that you get more weight in a cup. So I would say the puppy is the richest and the regular is more dense. However, density has little to do with nutrition and has a lot to do with how big a bag you need to hold 50 pounds.
Ezzy
O.K. let's add another piece (literally) to the puzzle. Actually, the puppy formula is a much smaller kibble than the adult. It would make sense that you could pack more of the puppy formula into an 8 oz cup than the adult. But, yet, the adult has more kcal per cup. Doesn't make sense to me.

Hypothetical - if my dog maintains weight on 1 cup per day of the adult, would I feed more or less of the puppy to maintain weight? I'm guessing less based on ME. The part that is hard to grasp is this... I feed by the cup.

Question: if the puppy food has more calories (ME) and a higher protein/fat ratio, is it the more "nutritious" food? If so, then I guess that Kcal per cup is really just a calculation and somewhat of a meaningless number???? Ezzy, I think I've read something similar from you in the past in relation to Kcal per cup.

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big steve46
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by big steve46 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:55 am

I haven't done any deep thinking about this, but maybe you just can't believe what some labels say. Other things are more important as we have often discussed. Certainly good quality ingredients in the right amounts are important.
big steve

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ezzy333
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:11 am

nanney1 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:The puppy food has more calories but the regular food is in a form that you get more weight in a cup. So I would say the puppy is the richest and the regular is more dense. However, density has little to do with nutrition and has a lot to do with how big a bag you need to hold 50 pounds.
Ezzy
O.K. let's add another piece (literally) to the puzzle. Actually, the puppy formula is a much smaller kibble than the adult. It would make sense that you could pack more of the puppy formula into an 8 oz cup than the adult. But, yet, the adult has more kcal per cup. Doesn't make sense to me.

Hypothetical - if my dog maintains weight on 1 cup per day of the adult, would I feed more or less of the puppy to maintain weight? I'm guessing less based on ME. The part that is hard to grasp is this... I feed by the cup.

Question: if the puppy food has more calories (ME) and a higher protein/fat ratio, is it the more "nutritious" food? If so, then I guess that Kcal per cup is really just a calculation and somewhat of a meaningless number???? Ezzy, I think I've read something similar from you in the past in relation to Kcal per cup.
Nanny, my first thought is you do not feed any feed from what the label or bag has printed. You feed what ever it takes to keep your dog or pup in good condition. In your scenario I wouldn't change the amount till I could see some results then make an adjustment.

There are several reasons that the amount by weight that you can get into a cup by volume is different with different feeds. If you try to simplify them for a forum like this the info would be of no use anyway. The real problem is that feed is made by weight but then the company tries to change the info to volume since that is the way most people measure the amount of feed they use. I have found that most of that info is pretty much useless in normal application. That's just another reason to let your dog tell you how much and the nice thing is they will give you the right answer every time.

Now I have to be honest with you and tell you I have never read the hype printed on the bag about calories for my dogs. And I haven't paid any attention to how much they suggest feeding. This may sound strange but stop to think if you have more than one dog you are in all likelihood feeding a different amount to each of them. So why read the info when it isn't accurate. Because of differing metabolisms, different activity levels, different housing conditions, different temperatures the dog is experiencing, different ages of the dogs, etc. the proper amount will vary as much as 50% or more between dogs or even for the same dog throughout the year. It is absolutely foolish to think that the bag instructions could even come close to your actual experiences.

Decide on the amount to feed by the dogs appetite and then watch to see what you need to adjust. It works every time.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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nanney1
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by nanney1 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:39 pm

I guess the thing that bugs me is that these two foods (from the same manufacturer) are so similar. People who feed these two foods will typically take their bitch off the adult when she is confirmed pregnant and switch her to the (pick the phrase): more nutrient and vitamin dense, higher calorie, higher protein/fat puppy food. Once the pups are old enough for food,they get the puppy variety.

Would they get similar results if they left the female on the adult and put the pups on the adult as well? I don't know. But it seems that these foods are so close that the point is moot. The higher protein/fat is what would push most people to switch and the puppy variety is indeed higher. There is also the assumption that the calories are much higher in the puppy variety, but in actuality not by much, if at all, depending on which way you choose to look at it.

I did call the manufacturer but they were no help at all. Customer service rep tried to read off of a sheet what I already had in front of me.

Thanks for the replies.

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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:07 pm

nanney1 wrote:I guess the thing that bugs me is that these two foods (from the same manufacturer) are so similar. People who feed these two foods will typically take their bitch off the adult when she is confirmed pregnant and switch her to the (pick the phrase): more nutrient and vitamin dense, higher calorie, higher protein/fat puppy food. Once the pups are old enough for food,they get the puppy variety.

Would they get similar results if they left the female on the adult and put the pups on the adult as well? I don't know. But it seems that these foods are so close that the point is moot. The higher protein/fat is what would push most people to switch and the puppy variety is indeed higher. There is also the assumption that the calories are much higher in the puppy variety, but in actuality not by much, if at all, depending on which way you choose to look at it.

I did call the manufacturer but they were no help at all. Customer service rep tried to read off of a sheet what I already had in front of me.

Thanks for the replies.
Calories are the least of the reasons to change the feeds. There are differences in adult food and puppy food, that is why most of us don't use it or use it for long because we don't like the results. The differences are usually in the ingredients that are used and in the Vitamin, mineral levels than in the protein levels. The base feeds are very close in those feeds just as it is in practically all of the feeds on the market. Dog food has become a very big market and very competitive and the hype associated with the marketing is tremendous. It all results in many misleading statements being advanced as facts by many customers and all of us spending way too much time worrying about what to feed and how much when it isn't at all necessary and we all spend way too much with little to show for it.

There are other topics on this board that are comparing some of the present dogs to the dogs of yesteryear and the opinions are probably that there is little change. And to think those dogs were being fed feeds that probably averaged 10 to 12 % protein and 6 to 8% fats in. Feeds that today would be called the poorest of the poor grocery store feeds that no one would feed a dog if they cared about them. You just have to remember that though we have learned some more about dog nutrition, a great deal of the published info is by some companies trying to create a market for their feeds and not always completely factual. In other words much of the facts of nutrition gets enhanced by marketing.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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nanney1
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by nanney1 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:48 pm

Ezzy,
Say the two foods I am pondering are as similar as I think they are.... Would the higher percentage of protein and fat 27/12, in and of itself, be a good enough reason to feed the puppy food to growing pups and nursing mothers over the adult ALS version which is 21/10.

Wow, interesting to know that there were foods with that small amount of protein and fat years ago. Who manufactured those foods? I have heard of dogs being fed pig creep years ago which is lower in protein and fat than dog food,and usually made from plant sources.

For the record, while the two foods I've presented are real, I am not considering switching what I'm currently feeding and I don't have a female that is pregnant. I just came across the calorie content info on a website and found the information interesting and found myself questioning things. A lot of people feed the two products in the manner I've described and have had good results. It just made me wonder. :?:

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ezzy333
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Re: Question regarding foods

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:39 pm

Nanny,

Just my own personal opinion is I don't like the results of feeding puppy food to the pups once they start eating so I don't use it at all. And I have never found a need to switch foods for the female and there can be problems doing it. On the other hand some people like to do it and I will admit it might help a low milk producing female with a big litter. But I sure don't want a female getting a rich feed that would allow her to produce more till the pups are getting near a week old. So I don't use it and have never had a female that needed help.

I would advise not feeding the puppy food under normal circumstances but will admit many have and have gotten by with it. I just don't see the advantage so why mess up what you are already doing when it's very doubtful it will be advantage to you.

Years ago when I started in the business we sold a lot of Baby Pig Creep feed for dogs and cats. The feed had a lot of rolled oats and dried milk products in it that the dogs and cats liked and did good on them. Most of the farm dogs ate corn from the graineries and caught rats and mice and ate them too. And of course there were the table scraps and possibly sour milk and people who had a lot of time would bake corn bread for them if they needed more feed. But as time went on we all began to see the need of a pet food manufactured specifically for them and Purina was probably the biggest of the companies that really got involved in the whole project starting with a research facility and testing facilities as well. Many of us followed and that has led to our present day.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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