Another Dog Food Debate...

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:10 pm

It appears to be a good dogfood that is really high priced.

Ezzy

Dillier23 · Post by **Dillier23** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:54 am

My opinion of dog food comes from being in the business for 13 years and listening to my customers and from personel experience. You are paying Too much for your dogs food! My personel favorite in PMI Nutrition from Purina Mills. I have 15 different dog foods in my stores and this is the one that I go with. I carry Diamond, Sportmix, Premium Edge, Exclusive, Country Value, Pride, Happy Hound, Rivers Edge, Pedigree, Science Diet, to name some known names. Used to feed Diamond, but the stools weren't as I wanted so I switched to PMI Prime 26. Diamond is a good feed, but not quite up to snuff with PMI. Cost is about 20 bucks a bag 50lb. Purina has a program in effect that will get you a free bag after you buy 6. Makes for excellent food at a good price.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:29 am

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:04 pm

When you say equal all you are saying is equal in your mind. Diller pointed out what he thought was equal or better in his mind and you don't want to know what I think. I would suggest you use what ever makes your dog happy and you can afford. But I will guarantee the dogs fed the feeds you don't like as well will be just as healthy and the owner will have spent a great deal less.

Ezzy

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:35 pm

Anybody know much about TimberWolf food?

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-b ... pg=ste_why

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-b ... 323601&rnd
=9378016&rrc=N&affl=&cip=68.230.66.126&act=&aff=&pg=ste_ingredients

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:17 am

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:23 am

Have you checked the Arkat performance? We are getting a pallet of the hunters edge, 24-18 to try. For a training kennel it seems to fit our needs, but I will decide after I use it awhile. It will have to really come up to our liking for us to switch from Pride. We have fed it for several yrs and dogs look real good on it.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:51 am

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:27 am

Jon,

I'm quite sure no one else makes a food like that. If they did it would probably be just as high priced as the one you posted.

I thought when you said equal you meant one as good as that one is for the dog. My error.

Ezzy

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:19 am

I don't know the price, but Purina select has made with "real" turkey I beleive. I am also unsure about other ingredients and protein and such, but might be worth checking.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:19 pm

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:23 pm

Post by **pear** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:39 pm

So Jon now that we've been through all of that what is the mystery food? ..."pear"

Post by **Ayres** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:55 pm

"Sweet Potatoes, Carrots, Apples"

Other than being recognizable human food ingrediants, what major benefit do these ingrediants serve?

I think there are a lot of "premium" and "holistic" feeds out there that play on people's perception of "doing more" for their dog by providing "real" vegetables and "meat chunks," going so far as to even press the food into recognizable vegetable and meat shapes, when, in fact, the food isn't really any better than some other quality dog foods at a cheaper price. The cost and marketing of a feed isn't necessarily an indicator of how good it is for pup's diet.

Here's the ingrediant list for the food that my dog gets, and I pay $29 per 40 lb. bag. As far as the quality of the ingrediants... this feed uses meats graded for human consumption.

Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:27 pm

Jon, I am not sure why you feel you have to feed a food with these ing. and is that expensive. Dogs can be in top shape and live a very long healthy life on many quality dogfoods that cost much less. Just ask `ol Rip

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:05 pm

I love my dogs but there's no way they are going to eat better than my family!(Ha! Ha!)

I know of many dogs that are show champions, Field Champions, Master Hunters, and everything else that are fed for under $20. There's some good feed out there at this price just to name a few is Exceed, Pride, Sportmix, Pro-pac, Diamond, Black gold, and Arkat. Any of these feeds will keep a dog healthy and happy for a lifetime. I know Diamond had a big problem a while back but that should just make them better. I had mutts growing up that lived on old Roy and they lived in their teens.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:07 am

12 Volt Man · Post by **12 Volt Man** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:30 am

I have recently switched to Black Gold, in the red bag. Previously I was feeding the black bag. Both of my dogs have bulked up. Since the switched. I was asked what I was feeding a couple of different times at the trial last weekend.

I am interested in the Arkat food and I will try it if I see it at any of the local feed stores. Arkat is getting a lot of positive praise lately.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:57 am

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:06 am

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:11 am

Little FYI

it takes approx 20 pounds of REAL meat source to make 1 pound of Meat source meal ie chicken beef what ever the so called Real source is this is a pet food product labeling gimmick...sure it is the main weight when it is wet but unless your feeding a WET food it must be processed in to a meal to make a DRY food

and other great sounding ingredients you'll need to remember it geared to make a HUMAN like the ingredients like it would be palatable for them

....
And Snips not sure about the calorie difference from what you were feeding to the Hunter edge but you may need to cut back on the amount of food...took about 3 weeks to figure out how much back but some dogs for us we are only feeding about 1 - 1 1/2 cups for the majority of the dog and the bigger more athlettic ones about 2 - 2 1/2 cups mostly the pointers but they ALWAYS seem to eat more no matter what we have tried purina on a cross so that was a no surprise there...But I think you'll be real happy with the Hunters Edge i know we are

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:25 pm

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:13 pm

Beet pulp is more to help firm up stools used by many brands of quality dog food...

But thats fine...looks like you have your own answers to your questions....

Post by **pear** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:30 pm

But thats fine...looks like you have your own answers to your questions....

Setting here thinking the same darn thing. Still waiting too hear what this "mystery wonder food" is called. ...'pear"

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 01, 2006 2:57 pm

This post does not appear to be anything other than stirring the pot to see if we can get an arguement going. With each post Jon has found fault with it, yet is still asking for everyones opinion. He states he isn't, and if that is true then all he is wanting is for everyone to post the ingredient list of their dog food so he can say it isn't equal to the list he posted. As of yet he hasn't even identified the feed that he is so enamered with. I think its time to identify your feed Jon, and then go back to what I posted when this started. There is no other feed that is the same as the one you posted but if there was it would be prohibitive in cost also.

Our dogs are classified as animals and companies have spent millions of dollars determining what a dog needs to be healthy. One of the basic facts is that they do not need human grade food. They do best when fed a combination of vegtable and animal sourced protien and carbs. Till someone finds a better vegtable source than corn and soybeans I will stick with them. Some other vegtable ingredients are fine also. Dogs do like them but the difference between a carrot and beets is insignaficant. But the speciality items like the carrots do increase the cost since they have to be processed before they can be used. The reason meat and bone meal is used is it provides an excellent source of protien as well aas calcium and phosphate. Meat meals don't do that. I could go on and on but I'm sure that everyone knows what I'm talking about.

I will once again say that the manufactures of the dogfoods on the market know much more about nutrion for a dog than the dog fanciers. If I have a training question I will ask the people who train dogs, a breeding question i will ask the people who breed, and if I have a nutrition problem I will ask the people who feed our dogs. They are the ones that have gone to school and majored in animal nutrition. Many of them even own and breed their own dogs. We have one or two of them on this forum and yet they are never the ones that are looking for a better food because they know the feed we are all feeding is good and it is a waste of our time to continuely be looking for a better food unless you are really having a problem of some kind.

With that I will stop and I hope the rest of you will too. This subject had been discussed forever with exactly the same questions being asked and the same answers being given. Lets let it rest. If you have found a food that your dog likes and it is healthy and you can afford it, feed it, it's a good dogfood. Listing the ingredients for comparison, or doing research using the feed manufacturers sales pitch is futile as all you are doing is reading what each one wants you to see. Tell me one company that has ever published on the internet anything that says their dogfood isn't better than anyone elses? When you do let us know and then we can possibly get into another discussion with some different answers.

Ezzy

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Mon May 01, 2006 3:55 pm

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon May 01, 2006 4:57 pm

Pear ..guess it to great we have to play guessing games now

Jon Glad you think this mystery food is so wonderful....
read the ingredients you posted sounds like advertising to put on humans plate...as stateds what peas and carrots offer to a DOGS diet isn't any more or less the beet pulp and also by the time you get to where these ingredients are they really don't amount to very much at all...
Many people think prurina pro plan is great...I used to feed it it is a good food i have tried many feeds and FYI like some others on this board we feed quite a few dogs ..we go through about a bag a day so I rely on a good food which my dogs can maintain and trial and guide on...I learned not to give in to marketing gimmicks as much as possible...want to read a good one look up the ingredients for Beneful maybe you'll like the pretty picture with the peas and carrots...but FYI they load it up with different sweetners to get the dogs addicted to it..even the purina reps call it crack for dogs but oh the clueless people who fall for the pretty bag with corn and peas and carrots and chunks of beef falling down the front of the package...
You should rename this post from food debate guess what i am feeding? as a debate requires inforamation and facts being exchanged with reasoning from both sides of an issue

Sorry to the mods but i find this post __________________!

Don't mean to get argumentative.either but calling the game for what I see it turned into....
delete this post if you deem neccessary and I will completely understand

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon May 01, 2006 5:20 pm

I always get a kick out the dog food threads.. I can remember back when I 1st started training dogs. The best you could do back then was Joy or Purina Hi Pro.. Alot of great dogs lived long and productive years on this food and some of the cheaper verisons. Now we have so many good feeds to pick from. I don't change dog foods often, fed diamond for 15 years... Switched to Sportmix 24/20 formula several months ago. it does a good job so I will stay with it.

What Ezzy posted is right on IMO, lots of good dog food out there today.

Mo

muckmuck · Post by **muckmuck** » Mon May 01, 2006 5:40 pm

It sounds like Jon is trying to become the top salesman for this Wonder Food.

Max

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Mon May 01, 2006 6:12 pm

Do I win a prize if I guess right? Winner?

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Mon May 01, 2006 7:41 pm

Is the "mystery" dog food: Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover's Soul? I saw a lady buy a small bag today for nearly $20 bucks! OUCH! I'm sticking w/ my Black Gold. Dogs love it and the're healthy.

What do I win?

Nitrex

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Mon May 01, 2006 8:13 pm

Jon I've enjoyed this post. Stick with food you like. Here's another tool for your comparison.

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=home-tab

Click on the compare tool, then put in the food you what to compare. Also you can click the ingredient such as beet pulp and see why it's in the food.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:56 pm

$29 per bag doesn't calculate in the cost of gas to drive to the feed store and buy the bag, but I never make a special trip to the feed store to get it. My feed store (which, by the way, has my chosen feed priced about $10 less per 40 lb. bag than most other places that carry it) sits right next to the closest Super Wal-Mart, where we do most of our heavy grocery shopping. Driving 150 feet up the highway and pulling into the feed store parking lot doesn't take any gas at all, and we always pick up our dog food when either grocery shopping or when I'm on my way home from school (also directly on the way).

BUT, when you're figuring up the cost of a feed you need to realize that price per pound is a highly deceptive number. Figure out how much of each feed you will be feeding to your dog to maintain weight. I feed Justus about 2.5 cups per day and he is in excellent field condition and never seems overly hungry (unless I have chicken nuggets or fries

). THEN, you need to figure out how long one bag of feed can sustain your dog based on his feeding schedule and calculate the price per day to feed. Doing this you will find that most dog foods are even, or are pretty darn close in the price per day category. You can pay more for premium feeds and give your dog less of it because they are more digestable, or you can pay less for perceived lower quality feeds and give your dog more of it per day. Either way the cost per day will likely be comparable.

So, mystery or not, if you like the feed you have displayed then go ahead and use it. I'm sure your dog won't mind so long as there's something in the food bowl.

I'll continue to use my chosen brand (Canidae) and others will continue to use their chosen brands (Diamond, ProPlan, Akrat, Exceed, etc.) and everyone will be happy because their dogs are happy.

Speaking of feed... I'm going to go get a snack.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:20 am

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:54 am

Jon the only thing here is Your game of debate about food...
I can say there are many things Ezzy and I do not agree upon but we do point and counter point with facts we do not play guessing games

So you think your food your feeding is great That is wonderful..well My dogs are doing great on what we are feeding I trial my dogs and I professionally guide with my dogs and I hunt and train with my dogs...I require alot from my dogs...I have found a food which they do very well on a food which gives them grwat Kcals per cup which is what is important when I am requiring them to get out there and maintain a level of energy .....

So dr fosters smith is this miracle food...I looked into it it is fine for a person who has a dog or 2 that feels they need to buy from a special place....Not saying it is a bad food but I am very happy they have people like you to buy this food ....
Oh and another FYI just because we choose to feed our dogs what we feed them which I think I speak for most here...we do care about our dogs and their manitainance there are many feeds on the market and just like training methods many of them work doesn't make one bad just different
SO if you want to SUGGEST your food you feed that is great ...playing games is what we find very annoying

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Tue May 02, 2006 12:35 pm

For the love of all that is good and decent would somebody PLEASE lock this thread! :roll:

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:44 pm

The man posted a question. Offered a debate and did so respectfully. He omitted the brand name. Perhaps to prevent any bias and turn the focus to the ingredients. He responded to everyone’s post about other feeds respectfully and offered his refuting evidence. For some reason some people just don’t like to debate dog food. Some of us do and should be allowed to without ruffling the feathers of the “feed whatever your dog is doing ok on” crowd. For goodness sake, we’re on a “dog discussion forum” in the blessed “health and nutrition” thread. Once in a while, a dog has a problem that may be related to it’s food. Skin problems, loose stools, ear or eye discharge, over or under weight. Some of us have a proactive mentality to these issues and are trying to find a food that may prevent said problems. Many people supplement their dog’s food with a lot of the stuff that is already in the type of feed Jon posted. (good bacteria, kelp, fish oils, flax) We like to share ideas and learn from each other, including opposing views. That is the beauty of debate.

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Tue May 02, 2006 1:49 pm

I completely agree with you Buzz, but I think what has happened here is that it has crossed the line from debate to pandering which is completely fruitless for anybody looking for productive information that could be considered proactive.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue May 02, 2006 2:49 pm

Buzz,

This thread was not presented as a debate about dogfood. Jon posted the ingredients of a food and asked if anyone has a food that was it's equal. When I and several others posted some we were shot down rather hastily with the reason being that he asked about equal. Our answers were exactly what he asked for but if he wanted to know if we knew of a food with the same ingredients, which he did state in his response, his choice of words did not relay that message to any of us. However, once he clarified his question, I apoligized that I misunderstood. To the best of my knowledge when I look at the post since then, my apology was not accepted and in turn there was no apology to the other people who responded saying he was sorry he had not expressed him self well enough for them to understand what he was wanting. But we all did get the message that our ideas of equal was not Jon's.

At this point he was asked by several people what the food he had listed was and he refused to tell. Did this help further your knowledge or any one else's? I don't believe so! All it did was make Jon feel in control since he knew more than the rest of us and he wasn't willing to share that knowledge. At that point I did make a post that expressed mine and several other peoples opinion of the purpose of the thread and also what it added to any of our knowledge. As you might notice, several people posted their feelings all along the same lines.

Since no real arguements had taken place and even though there had been a call to possibly locking the thread it was decided to just let it ride for a while and see if anything worth while would come of it. I think you can see where it went from there.

To quote

Ayres wrote:
$29 per (which, by the way, has my chosen feed priced about $10 less per 40 lb. bag than most other places that carry it)

BUT, when you're figuring up the cost of a feed you need to realize that price per pound is a highly deceptive number. Figure out how much of each feed you will be feeding to your dog to maintain weight. I feed Justus about 2.5 cups per day THEN, you need to figure out how long one bag of feed can sustain your dog based on his feeding schedule and calculate the price per day to feed. Doing this you will find that most dog foods are even, or are pretty darn close in the price per day category. You can pay more for premium feeds and give your dog less of it because they are more digestable, or you can pay less for perceived lower quality feeds and give your dog more of it per day. Either way the cost per day will likely be comparable.

yep ! I agree. So where is the logic in buying lessor feeds and cleaning up more waste ?

This after everyone had posted that they felt their feed was not lesser.

Seems like a lot of time & money invested into a pet you don't feel is worth spending $3-4 more per bag for a better feed. It's worth that to me not having to clean up all the extra crap and smell.

Have you seen any acceptance yet of the fact that we think our feed is just as good or that the quality of a dogfood is not judged on how much stool is produced.

But that is not the only reason I choose this brand. They support our gun dog hobby unlike Petco and places which are against anything to do with hunting.

Great and so do all the manufactures of the other dogfoods.

It's to bad people can't talk about anything without EZZY and gang stepping in and taking every post in a negative direction or shutting it down when he or his gang doesn't agree with it.

Did Grant sell the gun dog forum to a dog food company that doesn't allow people to talk about other brands ?

Are you going to delete the post now Ezzy because you don't like my opinion, or will you get your buddies to flame me on your behalf.

Now tell me again about this debate. It seems to me that anyone that offered an opinion that differed from Jon's was leading the thread in a negative direction. Thats not a debate. Debates are about two different sides to a question and normally will be free from personal attacks but will stick with the facts.

I was kind of wanting to shut this one down since I have never had that experience regardless of what Jon posted. His post was not based on fact but that doesn't seem to matter.

Grant didn't sell to a dogfood company that doesn't allow other foods to be mentioned. However if he had, this post would still be here since Jon couldn't let us know what kind of food he was talking about.

And Jon doesn't even know yet that I don't discuss peoples opinion with my buddies simply because I don't need any help if flaming is my intent.

So as of now, the thread is still open but it is riding a very thin line. Jon's last post, which ended on a strictly personal note is exactly the right thing to do if you want the thread locked or possibly get yourself excummunicated. If that is the intent it can be done. If not then lets post some info and hear the give and take that a debate requires. Facts as well as opinions will help. And keep it on subject and not on people. That will not be tolerated.

And Jon, get back on tract with a friendly debate that includes give and take and not ridicule of the other peoples opinion. That requires that you lay out your facts and opinions so the rest of us can make an educated response if that is what you are wanting. And if its information you want, accept what you are given and then decide what you want to do with it instead of just telling all of us we don't know what we are talking about. This leads a person to think you really don't want anyone else's opinion unless it agrees with your's.
Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Tue May 02, 2006 8:35 pm

I do have to say that I back up Ezzy on this one. And, really, I don't share his opinion on dog food. I tend to feed a "premium" feed that I get for a non-premium price. I could save a few bucks a month and feed something else, but I don't. I compared the ingredient list and chose what I chose.

But that doesn't mean I don't respect his opinion.

This post asked for a dog food with ingredients equal to the ones posted. Several people posted what they believed to be equal quality dog feeds, but were each in turn told that those feeds were inferior.

Then some folks came back and said that they didn't feel the feeds listed were low quality anything, and their dogs do just fine on them. In response, it was eluded to that spending a little more on a dog food is something that absolutely should be done if the dogs are actually cared for. It wasn't said in those words, but the tone of the posting was there, whether intentional or not. (and I hope it was not intentional)

Insinuating that what other people feed is inferior, i.e. not the best for their dog, is insulting to them. We always maintain a rule here that there's more than one way to train a dog and that rule extends into dog care. You can post your opinion on what you do and why, but it can cross the line when you start saying that what other people do is dead wrong.

That is when the call came to name the brand of food that was being described. Obviously Jon thinks that there is nothing better, from an ingredient and price-point standpoint that he can feed. That's fine and dandy! Good! Others have the right to disagree though, and a disagreement does not constitute a flaming. There's no need for personal attack, and that is what happened at the end of Jon's last post.

Debate is fine, as long as it's done with facts and interpretations. When it's done with emotion and mud slinging, it's crossing the line. This thread can stay open so long as the debate doesn't cross the line.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue May 02, 2006 8:45 pm

After thinking about this for awhile, maybe the great dog food debate is the one particular debate that we actually can't have in a civil fashion. After all, people buy premium feeds because they think they are "better" than other feeds. This in itself has an elitist air to it, and can make other people feel as if they are being thought of as feeding a "low quality" food.

Everyone wants the best for their dog, and I'm sure everyone does what they believe is the best for their dog. Some folks don't put a lot of weight into dog food differences, others do. But when this debate comes up to find what is believed to be the "best" food, everyone that doesn't feed that particular winner dog food seems to fall from the ideal of doing what is best for their dog.

I'm open to suggestions of how this debate can proceed in a civil fashion. I'm unsure if that is possible right now though.

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » Wed May 03, 2006 7:43 am

Steven I think you hit the nail on the head. When someone does something different then someone else which he or she thinks is better, there is a tendency for the other person to feel convicted about what they are doing. Most times there is no such intent. I can't argue with you or Ezzy as the thread took a bad turn toward the end and I don't condone it at all. Lock it, don’t lock it, it does not matter. When this topic comes up we need to respect each other’s opinions. We also need to not be defensive or dismissive.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 03, 2006 8:04 am

Good post Buzz.

Ezzy

portsider44 · Post by **portsider44** » Wed May 03, 2006 10:19 am

Jon wrote:

It's to bad people can't talk about anything without EZZY and gang stepping in and taking every post in a negative direction or shutting it down when he or his gang doesn't agree with it.

Did Grant sell the gun dog forum to a dog food company that doesn't allow people to talk about other brands ?

Are you going to delete the post now Ezzy because you don't like my opinion, or will you get your buddies to flame me on your behalf. :shock:

Jon,

I really think you cross the line on this one. Which in the heat of the moment can happen, but how you deal with afterwards will be the true test of your character.

Good Luck.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:36 pm

Post by **grant** » Wed May 03, 2006 8:24 pm

Jon wrote:
Did Grant sell the gun dog forum to a dog food company that doesn't allow people to talk about other brands ?

Geez, how did I get brought into this? But, no I didn’t sellout to a dog food company; you know that. Don’t get ill Jon. Your post was interesting, and it seems like you’ve put effort into the decision making process, which is cool. As I read the thread, I just found myself wanting to know the brand, and by leaving out the brand, you probably directed attention away from your argument.