Dr Tim's Dog Foods

[SubMariner]

50 pound shorthair, field trial dog that is getting conditioning work 4 to 5 times a week, I am feeding him 2.5 cups of Momentum a day. Those are measured out cups.

That is what I would have guessed. It is not uncommon for people to feed 4-5 cups of Pro Plan to that same dog.

Monster Dad,
Please give us the names of a few of those people who are feeding 4-5 cups a day ? I have been involved in feed and feed tests for quite some time and have never found a 199% difference in what two feeds could produce. I can't even imagine what you could possibly put in a feed that would allow it to carry twice the calories.

This may or may not be a "hijack" but when we were feeding our #1 GSP Pro Plan or Exceed, we fed him 4 cups a day & he still looked like a starving 3rd world dog. Switched him to EVO Turkey over five years ago and he is currently at 2.25 cups day. As soon as we switched he put on muscle, his coat improved as did his stamina.

#2 GSP (now 2 years old) has only been on EVO since we got him. Since he is about the same weight as GSP #1, he gets the same amount of food and is also in great shape.

Feel free to compare the ingredients between the aforementioned feeds and I think you'll find your answer...

[mountaindogs]

Actually the previous post makes a nice segway to my news. Evo has been recalled several times (my dog was NOT sick and I doubt the salmonella would bother him much but...) and all the stores within an hour or so have pulled it off the shelves with no restocked date as of this time. Had tried two other grain free and do not like them as well. SOOOO... I finally ordered some Dr. Tim's momentum for my hard keepers. Its still hot but we have already started roading for the upcoming season. High hopes for this food. Shall post my thoughts in a month or so.

[Georgia Boy]

Actually the previous post makes a nice segway to my news. Evo has been recalled several times (my dog was NOT sick and I doubt the salmonella would bother him much but...) and all the stores within an hour or so have pulled it off the shelves with no restocked date as of this time. Had tried two other grain free and do not like them as well. SOOOO... I finally ordered some Dr. Tim's momentum for my hard keepers. Its still hot but we have already started roading for the upcoming season. High hopes for this food. Shall post my thoughts in a month or so.

How many bags did you order? I have one other person that is interested in going in on a pallet. I was quoted a decent price like that.

[mountaindogs]

Just 1 to try first... from petflow.com
If I like it I'll be in touch because I'll need more than that of course. I'll PM you re prices...

[MonsterDad]

Actually the previous post makes a nice segway to my news. Evo has been recalled several times (my dog was NOT sick and I doubt the salmonella would bother him much but...) and all the stores within an hour or so have pulled it off the shelves with no restocked date as of this time. Had tried two other grain free and do not like them as well. SOOOO... I finally ordered some Dr. Tim's momentum for my hard keepers. Its still hot but we have already started roading for the upcoming season. High hopes for this food. Shall post my thoughts in a month or so.

Even if EVO does come back, based on the new AAFCO limits for calcium it may not be on the market in its current form for long.

[SubMariner]

Actually the previous post makes a nice segway to my news. Evo has been recalled several times (my dog was NOT sick and I doubt the salmonella would bother him much but...) and all the stores within an hour or so have pulled it off the shelves with no restocked date as of this time. Had tried two other grain free and do not like them as well. SOOOO... I finally ordered some Dr. Tim's momentum for my hard keepers. Its still hot but we have already started roading for the upcoming season. High hopes for this food. Shall post my thoughts in a month or so.

Even if EVO does come back, based on the new AAFCO limits for calcium it may not be on the market in its current form for long.

Our guys are back on EVO. Care to elaborate on "the new AAFCO limits for calcium"? A link would be great.

[MonsterDad]

Actually the previous post makes a nice segway to my news. Evo has been recalled several times (my dog was NOT sick and I doubt the salmonella would bother him much but...) and all the stores within an hour or so have pulled it off the shelves with no restocked date as of this time. Had tried two other grain free and do not like them as well. SOOOO... I finally ordered some Dr. Tim's momentum for my hard keepers. Its still hot but we have already started roading for the upcoming season. High hopes for this food. Shall post my thoughts in a month or so.

Even if EVO does come back, based on the new AAFCO limits for calcium it may not be on the market in its current form for long.

Our guys are back on EVO. Care to elaborate on "the new AAFCO limits for calcium"? A link would be great.

The 2014 AAFCO profile limits calcium on a DM basis to 1.80% and phosphorous to 1.60%. EVO is currently 2.83% and 1.75%. Because the regulations are enforced by each state who knows if it will get enforced everywhere.

EVO could also remove its "complete and balanced labeling" as a way to get around it. In any event, this is not something I would be comfortable using on a daily basis. Kidney disease only becomes symptomatic when its too late.

[ezzy333]

AAFCO recommended limits are posted on the net at 1.0 min. for reproductive health, 0.6 for adult maintenance, and 2.5 as max. What you see posted on the bags is the min. amount in the feed. Many people feed calcium supplements which I don't agree with but it is probably the most added supplement on the market. Seldom if ever hear of a dog having much in the way of problems with calcium intake. I do think it adds to arthritic conditions and bone spurs if too high.

So many other more important things to worry about for those that need something to worry about.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

AAFCO recommended limits are posted on the net at 1.0 min. for reproductive health, 0.6 for adult maintenance, and 2.5 as max. What you see posted on the bags is the min. amount in the feed. Many people feed calcium supplements which I don't agree with but it is probably the most added supplement on the market. Seldom if ever hear of a dog having much in the way of problems with calcium intake. I do think it adds to arthritic conditions and bone spurs if too high.

So many other more important things to worry about for those that need something to worry about.

Ezzy

The NEW 2014 guidelines will place maximum levels of Calcium & Phosphorous DM @ 1.80% and 1.60%, respectively. This effects very few foods because most have much lower levels anyway.

[mountaindogs]

One does have to wonder if the variance in intake of total food even out the calcium difference. Still I'd much rather er on the low side.

[ezzy333]

AAFCO recommended limits are posted on the net at 1.0 min. for reproductive health, 0.6 for adult maintenance, and 2.5 as max. What you see posted on the bags is the min. amount in the feed. Many people feed calcium supplements which I don't agree with but it is probably the most added supplement on the market. Seldom if ever hear of a dog having much in the way of problems with calcium intake. I do think it adds to arthritic conditions and bone spurs if too high.

So many other more important things to worry about for those that need something to worry about.

Ezzy

The NEW 2014 guidelines will place maximum levels of Calcium & Phosphorous DM @ 1.80% and 1.60%, respectively. This effects very few foods because most have much lower levels anyway.

It will have little effect on any food as it is a very minor difference in the formulas.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

AAFCO recommended limits are posted on the net at 1.0 min. for reproductive health, 0.6 for adult maintenance, and 2.5 as max. What you see posted on the bags is the min. amount in the feed. Many people feed calcium supplements which I don't agree with but it is probably the most added supplement on the market. Seldom if ever hear of a dog having much in the way of problems with calcium intake. I do think it adds to arthritic conditions and bone spurs if too high.

So many other more important things to worry about for those that need something to worry about.

Ezzy

The NEW 2014 guidelines will place maximum levels of Calcium & Phosphorous DM @ 1.80% and 1.60%, respectively. This effects very few foods because most have much lower levels anyway.

It will have little effect on any food as it is a very minor difference in the formulas.

Ezzy

In the case of EVO and about a dozen other high protein foods it will have a direct impact. EVO is at 2.83% and 1.75%. Again it depends on whether the states will enforce it or not.

[ezzy333]

In the case of EVO and about a dozen other high protein foods it will have a direct impact. EVO is at 2.83% and 1.75%. Again it depends on whether the states will enforce it or not.

AAFCO recommendations are not law that anyone enforces. But if they want to be able to label it as meeting the recommendations then they will have to take approximately 30 lbs. of limestone out of a ton batch and replace it with something else. Just isn't a big deal for any company to comply.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

In the case of EVO and about a dozen other high protein foods it will have a direct impact. EVO is at 2.83% and 1.75%. Again it depends on whether the states will enforce it or not.

AAFCO recommendations are not law that anyone enforces. But if they want to be able to label it as meeting the recommendations then they will have to take approximately 30 lbs. of limestone out of a ton batch and replace it with something else. Just isn't a big deal for any company to comply.

Ezzy

You are supposed to be the expert on this coming from the business. You are flat out incorrect. The AAFCO guidelines are adopted by each state as law almost word for word. In many states, the law says refer to AAFCO. Does each state enforce pet food laws? Some yes and some not so much. Do some states add to AAFCO, some do. Some states have to approve the label on every formula before you are registered to sell a food.

The issue with the many of the high protein foods is not added limestone or calcium in other forms, it is bone in the protein meals. If you want to sell a 42% protein food like EVO you are going to have to change the formula or quality of ingredients to a great extent.

[Del Lolo]

Dr Tim

Are the catfish in your formulas farm raised ?
Are the salmon in your formula wild caught or farm raised ?
How are the ocean fish preserved between being caught and arriving at your facility ? (frozen or ethoxyquin)
.

[dr tim]

Del Lolo;

Both the salmon and catfish are farm raised. Preservation is done with mixed tocopherols.

[Del Lolo]

Del Lolo;

1. Both the salmon and catfish are farm raised.
2. Preservation is done with mixed tocopherols.

1. You may disagree, but IMO, farm raised fish are garbage cans waiting to be eaten. All kinds of antibiotics, pesticides and other chemicals are fed to farm raised fish.
2. I'm talking about how are they preserved between the time they are caught and the time they arrive at your plant --- NOT how they are preserved for "in the bag". As fresh caught fish, I'm sure they are not preserved with mixed tocopherols.

.

[ezzy333]

Want to bet the fish are ground, dried, and marketed as fish meal. I doubt if anyone wants to pay shipping for a whole lot of water they don't want.

I always wonder where people get their information when they make statements like they are just garbage because of what they are fed but never see anyone tell us what they are fed. We always had a feed with antibiotics and sulfa to use when they came off of the truck from out west but you would be hard pressed to find any other feed with antibiotic in the cattle line, a little more prominent in hog feeds, and seldom found in poultry feeds. There is no medicated feed for any livestock that that leaves a residue in the meat when used properly and it is checked constantly to make sure everyone is complying.

Ezzy

[SanerSoft]

Dr Tim, is 34% protein too high for a pup (10 months old).

[mountaindogs]

And wild caught fish are full of heavy metals including but not limited to high mercury levels and are not particularly sustainable in the current practices. Fish are a tough issue right now and everyone informed enough knows that neither choice is perfect at this time.

[Del Lolo]

Mr Ezzy
Look up ethoxyquin.
There are numerous dog food companies who absolutely will not use fish that are preserved with it.

[Del Lolo]

And wild caught fish are full of heavy metals including but not limited to high mercury levels and are not particularly sustainable in the current practices. Fish are a tough issue right now and everyone informed enough knows that neither choice is perfect at this time.

A Norwegian researcher has raised serious concerns about high levels of contaminants in farm-raised salmon

She claims the type of contaminants detected in farmed salmon have a negative effect on brain development and is associated with autism, ADD / ADHD and reduced IQ. They can also affect your immune system and metabolism

The Norwegian Health Department has issued new official recommendations to women of childbearing age or who are pregnant, suggesting they limit farmed salmon to a maximum of two meals per week due to potential toxicity
Four major grocery chains in Norway are threatening to ban farmed salmon from their stores unless the farmed salmon industry agrees to change their production to closed pens and guarantees that the fish are safe to eat

[ezzy333]

And wild caught fish are full of heavy metals including but not limited to high mercury levels and are not particularly sustainable in the current practices. Fish are a tough issue right now and everyone informed enough knows that neither choice is perfect at this time.

A Norwegian researcher has raised serious concerns about high levels of contaminants in farm-raised salmon

She claims the type of contaminants detected in farmed salmon have a negative effect on brain development and is associated with autism, ADD / ADHD and reduced IQ. They can also affect your immune system and metabolism

The Norwegian Health Department has issued new official recommendations to women of childbearing age or who are pregnant, suggesting they limit farmed salmon to a maximum of two meals per week due to potential toxicity
Four major grocery chains in Norway are threatening to ban farmed salmon from their stores unless the farmed salmon industry agrees to change their production to closed pens and guarantees that the fish are safe to eat

Sounds like at least 1 person thinks Norway needs to change what they are doing with their fish farming. I have no idea what they are doing so have no comment on it. But I do know I don't live ther, so I will be much more concerned on what we do in this country.

Ezzy

[Del Lolo]

Wild Sockeye is your best bet because :

1.Reduced risk of contamination: The risk of sockeye accumulating high amounts of mercury and other toxins is reduced because of its short life cycle, which is only about three years. Additionally, bioaccumulation of toxins is also reduced by the fact that it doesn't feed on other, already contaminated, fish.
2.Superior nutritional content: Wild salmon swim around in the wild, eating what nature programmed them to eat. Therefore, their nutritional profile is more complete, with micronutrients, fats, minerals, vitamins, and antioxidants like astaxanthin (which gives salmon its pink, or in the case of sockeye, red-colored, flesh).
Farmed salmon, for comparison, are fed an artificial diet consisting of grain products like corn and soy (most of which is genetically modified), along with chicken and feather meal, artificial coloring, and synthetic astaxanthin, which is not approved for human consumption, but is permitted to be used in fish feed.

Nature never intended fish to eat these things, and as a consequence of this radically unnatural diet, the nutritional content of their flesh is also altered, and not for the better. Farmed salmon tastes different than wild-caught, and much of it has to do with the altered fat ratio, which is dramatically different. Farmed salmon contains far more omega-6, courtesy of their grain-based diet.

The ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fat of wild salmon is far superior to farmed salmon. Wild salmon typically has 600 to 1,000 percent more omega-3s compared to omega-6s. So whereas farmed salmon has a 1 to 1 ratio of omega-3s and omega-6s — again due to its "junk food" diet — the ratio for wild sockeye salmon is between 6 and 9 to 1. This is important, because if you're trying to improve your omega-3 to omega-6 balance, you simply will not accomplish it with farmed salmon.

[Del Lolo]

Take a look at this video -- it'll open your eyes
http://vimeo.com/61301410

[mountaindogs]

Makes me smile how some people see one thing has risks and automatically assume the "other choice" is fine and or better. You know, I have been thinking that the pollen and pollution are very dangerous and I might need to stop breathing for my health. I mean sometimes we just have to make a choice. It may not be an ideal choice but the other choice may be harder to live with.
Fact is the FDA has been reccomending limiting ocean caught fish and shellfish to 2 servings a week for pregnant women for years and years. at least 15 years. Your news only tells me that farm raised fish is also full of problems, which is not "new" news. My OB specifically reccomended eating only 2 servings a week of fish from anywhere (farmed or ocean) while pregnant.

To me it's just one of those zillions of issues we face that is not solved with avoiding everything. We need to fix the run off, dumping, contaminants, watershed, fishing practices, fisheries managment, food production system, and total education. Also Dr. Tim gave a very simple straight answer to a very complicated and detailed issue. I am sure he groaned at the question, knowing that it is lose/lose right now in the world or fish consumption. STILL, Not all farmed fish are the same. Fish from china repeatedly fail inspection miserably, and conversly some farms are working hard to provide sustainable healthier fish.
For example: http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... on-farming

at the core of the issue I agree, farm raised fishing practices have MUCH to fix! BUT wild caught has serious dangers also.
In the very long meantime I have to feed my dogs, and they need omega fatty acids.

[ezzy333]

We can try to find fault with everything or we can see the benefits of what is happening. People and dogs both are healthier and live longer than they ever have and much of it is due to better nutrition.

Ezzy