What Dog Food and Why?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:16 pm

The first paragraph is something we disagree totally on andI addressed it earlier on. Thats something that I don't wish to argue and we will both have to agree to respect each others veiws on that because there is really no chance of change. No I don't want to give animals their own rights and think for themselves, we have been largely thinking for them for thousands of years and it has worked out very well for both of us. It is enough to use common sense in that area. My point is not that human beings and dogs are the same. My point is dogs are more like young children then we admit. Problem dogs and problem children are largely created the same way. Love does not equal love any more in the human world than it does in the dog world. Yes it is well known that humans realy on their eyes mostly and dogs use their sense of smell. Kids will do a lot of disgusting things as well. A dog does not have the capacity to grow into a contructive member of society, and we value different things differently. "But" they are all comparative. There is nothing wrong with humanizing a dog with a little common sense. I have found the similarities very interesting, and I think we are afraid to admit that they are there for some fear of ruining our dogs or from a superiority complex that we are somehow not animals ourselves.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:23 pm

Winchey,

Semantics could definitely play a role here, so forgive me if I address something to a different degree than you are suggesting; but the biggest mistake I see with dog owners outside sporting and working dogs is Anthropomorphism. In that, I mean that I don't buy for a minute that a dog wants to please you because they feel a an intrinsic desire to give back. When someone describes a dog wanting to please; to me, I think of an animal’s instinct to get from their environment what they need. They are incapable of reason as it relates to emotion.

A great example of this is someone's 6, 7, or 10th dog that suddenly is quasi aggressive with people. Maybe it growls at the owner when being put in the crate, maybe it is possessive over food and they don't understand. They have always, let their dogs sleep on the bed, nudge them to be petted, lean on them, climb on the furniture at will, etc... All the while they have been blessed with genetics that could tolerate such freedom and then they get a personality that can't and they do not understand.

Dogs are incredibly adaptive but reflecting our feelings and emotions on them is terribly misguided and I believe restrictive as a trainer. I think I am stealing from Cesar here but look at the demeanor of a dog with the transient and homeless. They are calm and well adjusted, living a life they are comfortable with.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:41 pm

No i see as people as self pleasing, just like dogs. We do things to get what we want. We may have come to expect mutual returns, but that doesen't mean the other party is feeling mutual emotions. (I think a lot of it may be customary) Humans are capable of doing this in a much more intricate way then dogs are so I see what you are saying, just don't look at things like you may have thought.

On the food topic atleast I agree with you Ezzy, just because we see something as not fit to eat does not mean it is not nutritious to a dog. Doesen't mean I know or you know what the best thing to feed is.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:52 pm

We haven't had a raw feeding thread in a long time. You guys up for one?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:14 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:Hello Grousehunter74...we use BLUE BUFFALO lamb and rice..reason is allergies mainly..it has NO WHEAT, SOY OR CORN in it which are the most common reasons for allergies in dogfood.. NO CHICKEN BY PRODUCTS OR MEAL..theres lots of fruit in it as well..its about $65 for a 30 pound bag.. he gets 4 to 5 cups a day spread out by 2 cups in the morning around 5am, 1 cup around 11am, and 2 cups around 6pm..when hes not so active we cut out the lunch feeding but he also does well on the biscuits blue has..it took many changes in food to find one he does well on and so far so good..also our new pup comes in about a week and shes going on it too....ruth

Can I ask why you feed three times per day?

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:22 pm

Charlie and ezzy, i do agree some people spoil their dogs and kill them with kindness im just not one of them which is what i felt was being implied by ezzy and you charlie were agreeing to..it seems to be implied by ezzy that my dogs allergies were imagined and i only switched feed to satisfy my need to have a better quality food and all food is the same..all food is not the same and thats a fact..if there were no levels of quality we would ALL feed ol'roy because its more economical than any other food and many dogs do live on it or they wouldnt sell it..and yes my dog is an exception but not alone in having reactions or sensitivities to a food or ingredient it is very common thats why people switch foods and try something better if they have an issue just like you did..also if you or anybody else looks at my original post that actually started this debate it has no implications that i felt people should feed a grain free diet..it is based on my dog and my research and my results with my dog..me NOT wanting grains or by products in my food because of my experience with my dog is no different than you or ezzy saying you DO want them because you believe it provides more energy for performing..i like you will feed all my dogs this food since it doesnt make sense to buy different brands plus i dont want my dog to on accident eat our new GSP pups food and get sick..when i put my dog on this food i did alot of searching and info about MANY different foods and proplan makes some really good foods i would choose, as does black gold and orijen and a few others that after i have looked into the grain free, corn free, soy free and more natural ingredients i prefer personally and will from now on use..its no different me chosing these foods and having seen results and telling people about them as it is for some people on here endorsing proplan "performance" or diamond "premium" as a good food they are happy with..saying you dont want me to make someone new to the forum think grain free is the only thing to feed their dog is not giving the person much credit to research and see what works for them as we have all done..also sharing success in any aspect of a dog whether it be feeding or training or anything else is not misleading anyone just simply sharing the knowledge and results they have had and people can take from it what they want...ruth

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:45 pm

ACooper wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:Hello Grousehunter74...we use BLUE BUFFALO lamb and rice..reason is allergies mainly..it has NO WHEAT, SOY OR CORN in it which are the most common reasons for allergies in dogfood.. NO CHICKEN BY PRODUCTS OR MEAL..theres lots of fruit in it as well..its about $65 for a 30 pound bag.. he gets 4 to 5 cups a day spread out by 2 cups in the morning around 5am, 1 cup around 11am, and 2 cups around 6pm..when hes not so active we cut out the lunch feeding but he also does well on the biscuits blue has..it took many changes in food to find one he does well on and so far so good..also our new pup comes in about a week and shes going on it too....ruth

Can I ask why you feed three times per day?

Sure you can..the reason why is because i had brought him to the vet because he was eating everything including poop, grass, rocks ect and had lost weight because of his food at the time not being good for him and the health issues going on..the vet said to feed in the morning 2 cups, give a cup at lunch and again 2cups in the evening of the new food(blue buffalo)..he stopped eating rocks, poop ect so we stuck to it and hes a healthy 71 pounds and doing well..my vet recommended this feeding schedule FOR US and we havent found a need to change it ..ruth

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:49 pm

mcbosco wrote:We haven't had a raw feeding thread in a long time. You guys up for one?

i like you more and more mcbosco

...ruth

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:11 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:Charlie and ezzy, i do agree some people spoil their dogs and kill them with kindness im just not one of them which is what i felt was being implied by ezzy and you charlie were agreeing to..it seems to be implied by ezzy that my dogs allergies were imagined and i only switched feed to satisfy my need to have a better quality food and all food is the same..all food is not the same and thats a fact..if there were no levels of quality we would ALL feed ol'roy because its more economical than any other food and many dogs do live on it or they wouldnt sell it..and yes my dog is an exception but not alone in having reactions or sensitivities to a food or ingredient it is very common thats why people switch foods and try something better if they have an issue just like you did..also if you or anybody else looks at my original post that actually started this debate it has no implications that i felt people should feed a grain free diet..it is based on my dog and my research and my results with my dog..me NOT wanting grains or by products in my food because of my experience with my dog is no different than you or ezzy saying you DO want them because you believe it provides more energy for performing..i like you will feed all my dogs this food since it doesnt make sense to buy different brands plus i dont want my dog to on accident eat our new GSP pups food and get sick..when i put my dog on this food i did alot of searching and info about MANY different foods and proplan makes some really good foods i would choose, as does black gold and orijen and a few others that after i have looked into the grain free, corn free, soy free and more natural ingredients i prefer personally and will from now on use..its no different me chosing these foods and having seen results and telling people about them as it is for some people on here endorsing proplan "performance" or diamond "premium" as a good food they are happy with..saying you dont want me to make someone new to the forum think grain free is the only thing to feed their dog is not giving the person much credit to research and see what works for them as we have all done..also sharing success in any aspect of a dog whether it be feeding or training or anything else is not misleading anyone just simply sharing the knowledge and results they have had and people can take from it what they want...ruth

Ruth I never once addressed your dogs allergies and if I had one I would do just what you are doing. I did address the fact that there isn't one in 10000 that has food allergies though it was thought for some years that it was. And I did address some food issues that after 50 years of education and then working in the industry I admit I do fieel somewhat qualified to state. Formulating, researching, doing feed testing, manufacturing , and writing the quality assurance procedures and including them into the feed mills in three states as well as your Ontario I feel some what qualified but I also know we are continuing to learn more everyday. Thats why this whole area is so full of old wives tales and misinformation.

Ezzy

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:15 pm

Dang not another ONE!!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:20 pm

Ruth, it was not my intention to offend you, but I have never encountered problems in a dog such as yours has and I am sure glad it is not common. However, when I made the comments on people having fat and spoiled dogs, I was not talking about you. As far as people new to dogs, your original post gave the impression that food containing grain is bad and that is just not the case. Maybe I was misunderstanding you, I don't know.

Charlie

BC.NARANJO · Post by **BC.NARANJO** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:01 pm

Just wondering has anyone tried putting there dog on a Raw diet B.A.R.F (Bones and raw foods) was looking into it and it seems promising but didnt know if anyone currently does this with their dog let me know!

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:07 pm

birddogger wrote:Ruth, it was not my intention to offend you, but I have never encountered problems in a dog such as yours has and I am sure glad it is not common. However, when I made the comments on people having fat and spoiled dogs, I was not talking about you. As far as people new to dogs, your original post gave the impression that food containing grain is bad and that is just not the case. Maybe I was misunderstanding you, I don't know.

Charlie

Im not offended charlie but thanks for the gesture..i am sure glad all HIS issues are not the norm either but there are still issues because of dog food and they are quite common thats why people are always seeking advice and new feed (such as yourself) and help from their vet ..i was just stating my dogs food and reason used as the OP had asked us to do..but i later stated the corn and wheat issue based on talking to my vet about my dogs allergies, reading ALOT about it plus the info in my books from school and what i learned while attending school and working in a vet hospital..i am not in any way claiming i know all there is to know about dog food just what i think is best for my dog and i am quite proud of the fact i helped saved his life..meaning if someone else would have owned him they may not have spent so much time into finding out the cause of his health going down hill and may have just put him down or put him in a shelter..i just feel that its kind of ironic that some people who think i am incorrect in using a "wheat free" diet or "corn free" diet(even though my dog needs it) also are usually the ones that also choose a "performance" or "premium" dog food to suit THEIR dogs needs.....ruth

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:32 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Dang not another ONE!!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:38 pm

I tried the raw thing with the chicken necks and organ meat and alfalfa and all that jazz for about 4 months. For me it wasn't worth the trouble, it was a lot of work when I found that I was getting just as good results or better with kibble. If we had decent suppers at this house on a regular basis I would really consider supplementing kibble with table scraps.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:44 pm

Ruth, I commend you for doing what is best for your dog. I never meant that you were incorrect in feeding the way you do. I would be concerned about feeding a dog three times a day if it was a working dog, but it sounds as though you are doing what is needed for your dog, and I get the impression that it is not a hunting dog. Is this correct?

Charlie

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:57 pm

BC.NARANJO wrote:Just wondering has anyone tried putting there dog on a Raw diet B.A.R.F (Bones and raw foods) was looking into it and it seems promising but didnt know if anyone currently does this with their dog let me know!

Oh sure, and the fact you live in around Lancaster Pennsylvania makes it easier for you. I live in NJ and there is a network here for virtually everything from free range chickens to goat. I use raw products, namely a beef/tripe/trachea complete grind, plain frozen green tripe and chicken necks. I also feed kibble. I have a larger dog than most so going totally raw means feeding 3-4lbs a day, that is a tall order to manage.

Typically, raw feeders use chicken necks, backs and thighs as the base, with liver, green tripe, raw eggs, beef heart a few times a week. To be honest, going totally raw without a broad vitamin supplement is something I wouldn't do because maintaining variety is time consuming. I also wouldn't avoid some grain and/or vegetable. Newbies will go whole hog on chicken necks and backs and have a really constipated dog.

If you can get chicken parts cheap, say 25 cents a lb, then 100% raw is doable for the cost of a high-end kibble.

You can get almost all the benefit of raw feeding by just adding it to a good kibble. Raw eggs, goats milk yogurt, green tripe, chicken parts and beef heart are easy to find and fold in to a normal diet. That is what I do. If you avoid muscle meat, then I wouldn't worry too much about balance in the diet. Dogs are pretty robust animals and have evolved to do well on inconsistent diets.

The simplest approach is to just find a supplier of green tripe (Oma's Pride) and feed 3-5lbs a week. If your dog's teeth look a little tired, then chicken necks will clean them up. Don't worry about your dog choking because it won't. Mine eats necks like a biscuit.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:59 pm

Winchey wrote:I tried the raw thing with the chicken necks and organ meat and alfalfa and all that jazz for about 4 months. For me it wasn't worth the trouble, it was a lot of work when I found that I was getting just as good results or better with kibble. If we had decent suppers at this house on a regular basis I would really consider supplementing kibble with table scraps.

Decent suppers?

BC.NARANJO · Post by **BC.NARANJO** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:10 pm

Thanks for the info! I think im gona try that see how it goes

JHumes · Post by **JHumes** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:08 pm

I hear that Black Gold dog food is good, but since there aren't local stores where they sell that brand.I go to a local pet shop and buy Blue Seal brand, I like it personally but don't know if anyone else knows of it.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:41 am

birddogger wrote:Ruth, I commend you for doing what is best for your dog. I never meant that you were incorrect in feeding the way you do. I would be concerned about feeding a dog three times a day if it was a working dog, but it sounds as though you are doing what is needed for your dog, and I get the impression that it is not a hunting dog. Is this correct?

Charlie

Yes hes a boxer a year old was neutered at 7 months as soon as we got his allergies under control we got him fixed..he is a VERY active dog compared to most hes not a lazy house dog since we are so active..we go for long hikes almost every day usually 2 miles..but our shorthair ruger and 2 setters bailey and belle always ate 2 times a day whether hunting all day or not..never had an issue with 2 times a day..although some people choose to feed once i never agreed with that unless they were getting some biscuits or energy bar during the day and a meal in the evening which is what we have done on occation during a long day out..but we have never fed the dogs only once with nothing else..that also increases the chances of bloat...ruth

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:36 am

mcbosco wrote:
Winchey wrote:I tried the raw thing with the chicken necks and organ meat and alfalfa and all that jazz for about 4 months. For me it wasn't worth the trouble, it was a lot of work when I found that I was getting just as good results or better with kibble. If we had decent suppers at this house on a regular basis I would really consider supplementing kibble with table scraps.
Decent suppers?

We rarely have have good home cooked meals on a regular basis with foods that would be good for dogs.

On another note, we did the beef heart, chicken necks, mutton chops and some other stuff and the supplements, had some sort of program on what they were supposed to get every day. We were warned by our vet and some other raw food people that it is risky to supplement raw with kibble. The reason being was raw and kibble digests at different rates and heightens the risk of the dog contracting slamanila or another bacterial infection due to them holding those bacterias in their system for a longer period then if they were just eating raw.

My biggest problems with it were it is a pain and sometimes messy dealing with a bunch of raw meat every day. My dogs are inside dogs and I didn't really like when he would decide he was going to take a bloody mutton chop out of his bowl and decide to eat it on his dog bed. When we were travelling it wasen't practical and I don't really like switching back and forth (rightly or wrongly).

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:05 am

Winchey wrote:
mcbosco wrote:
Winchey wrote:I tried the raw thing with the chicken necks and organ meat and alfalfa and all that jazz for about 4 months. For me it wasn't worth the trouble, it was a lot of work when I found that I was getting just as good results or better with kibble. If we had decent suppers at this house on a regular basis I would really consider supplementing kibble with table scraps.
Decent suppers?
We rarely have have good home cooked meals on a regular basis with foods that would be good for dogs.

On another note, we did the beef heart, chicken necks, mutton chops and some other stuff and the supplements, had some sort of program on what they were supposed to get every day. We were warned by our vet and some other raw food people that it is risky to supplement raw with kibble. The reason being was raw and kibble digests at different rates and heightens the risk of the dog contracting slamanila or another bacterial infection due to them holding those bacterias in their system for a longer period then if they were just eating raw.

My biggest problems with it were it is a pain and sometimes messy dealing with a bunch of raw meat every day. My dogs are inside dogs and I didn't really like when he would decide he was going to take a bloody mutton chop out of his bowl and decide to eat it on his dog bed. When we were travelling it wasen't practical and I don't really like switching back and forth (rightly or wrongly).

I hear ya....

JMc · Post by **JMc** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:38 am

Just my 2 cents... 73 (now 74 counting mine) on WHAT dog food and why? Less than 1/3 of the posts answer the question. It's Ford or Chevrolet...choose one and go on with it. How about some type of chart or poll with all the dog foods we have listed. We check the one we use and then have that as a reference. I'm tired of reading about someone trying to prove how smart they are or how much smarter they are than someone else. It's dog food, there are many choices; it's your dog; it's not rocket science. If you can afford a Cadillac or Lincoln buy it, if not buy a Chevy or Ford...the same goes with dog food. How about going to http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ and quit arguing. I'm not apposed to reading about allergies or issues that may be food related so that I or we may avoid that happening to our dogs. Sorry to vent and hope to not offend; if so, too bad, get over it.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:59 am

JMc, I believe there is a chart exactly like you are talking about in the polls section. Most of these threads get off topic and yes it can get old, but on a forum such as this, debates are going to happen. Nobody is forcing you to read it. I think if the question was only "what dog food"? it may have been different, but the "and why"? is what starts the debate.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:11 am

birddogger wrote:JMc, I believe there is a chart exactly like you are talking about in the polls section. Most of these threads get off topic and yes it can get old, but on a forum such as this, debates are going to happen. Nobody is forcing you to read it. I think if the question was only "what dog food"? it may have been different, but the "and why"? is what starts the debate.

Charlie

Can't agree more. The dog food debates do get old but we have new members signing on everyday and they haven't read what was posted in the past and few ever look. Always have wondered about someone complaining about a topic but they must be reading it or they wouldn't know what was happening.

Charlie, how much snow do you have on the ground?

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:32 am

I don't have a big problem with "dog food advisor" except for at least a couple of things. 1) High quality well-processed grains have good nutritional value. 2) By-Product Meals from top-grade sources are good and actually advantageous.

I would argue that dogs have evolved somewhat into Omnivores, but I agree a good meat source or by-product meat meal should be the first ingredient.

It appears to me our interests in good dog feed are related to hunting dogs, not lapdogs, so cost effectiveness and common sense should prevail.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:20 am

Ezzy, we probably have eight to ten inches with ice underneath A lot of it has started to melt in the last couple of days.

Charlie

JMc · Post by **JMc** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:40 pm

I'll check out the poll, thanks. I have no problem reading about what people are feeding and why but it bothers me to see a dog blog turn into a pissing contest. Probably just me as I'm a school administrator in Texas and not real tolerant these days with a 27 billion dollar deficit facing the state and 13 billion of that from public education...but that's another forum in itself. Of course I didn't answer the question either, so here you go.

Started with Purina Pro Plan: no problems just 40 miles to get it.
Went with local feed store and Loyall: liked it, dealer out of business, had to drive 40 miles again
Based on GDF information, went to Diamond Naturals: Peeeewwwww...gspgasioushorrendous! Loose stools!
Back to PPP...talked local grocer into getting for me and a couple of buddies; we buy a palet and he stores it.

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:39 am

mcbosco wrote:
Winchey wrote:I tried the raw thing with the chicken necks and organ meat and alfalfa and all that jazz for about 4 months. For me it wasn't worth the trouble, it was a lot of work when I found that I was getting just as good results or better with kibble. If we had decent suppers at this house on a regular basis I would really consider supplementing kibble with table scraps.
Decent suppers?

SpaghettiOs!!

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:28 pm

I feed National brand dog food to most of our dogs. One gets Taste of the Wild - bison. Good protein sources and she is hypoglycemic and this food seems to help her.

I would recommend www.dogfoodanalysis.com for a review of dog foods. Also, Native dog food has a good corn-free food.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:14 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I feed National brand dog food to most of our dogs. One gets Taste of the Wild - bison. Good protein sources and she is hypoglycemic and this food seems to help her.

I would recommend http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com for a review of dog foods. Also, Native dog food has a good corn-free food.

The Dog Food Analysis you refer too is another one put out by people with an agenda and they just aren't objective at all with there analysis. I and many others on here have looked at it and all pretty much agree. There are much better places to learn about dog food but your dog can probably tell you as much as anyone can. Native does have a grain free food but most people with preformance dogs feed a preformance food and they have grain in them. Dogs that ar being worked need the carbs that corn or wheat provide.

Ezzy

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:16 pm

Roostersmom..Sent you a pm....

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:20 pm

Ezzy;

I understand the different dogs will respond differently to the same foods, and that trial-and-error is probably the best way to find the ideal food for a particular dog, but I'm curious if there is a rating organization somewhere that you believe to be objective and accurate?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:39 pm

ckirsch wrote:Ezzy;

I understand the different dogs will respond differently to the same foods, and that trial-and-error is probably the best way to find the ideal food for a particular dog, but I'm curious if there is a rating organization somewhere that you believe to be objective and accurate?

You know I am not sure there is. There is the results of many feed tests and research that has been done but there is no one that knows what the formulas are of the different feeds so it basically impossible for anyone to honestly rate them other than to do feed test with each feed. We used to do some of that when we needed to test our feed against some other one and that was the only way we could tell for sure. Between our research farm, Purina, the Universities, and a few other companies there has been a lot of research done. Quite a few companies that did not have research facilities would pay us to do test for them. But we still didn't know what their formulas were and several times wasn't sure what they were really testing for. But the research that has been done is so thorough and complete that there is little left to chance. The advantage of doing animal research is the ability to take individuals at intervals and post them so you could see exactly what was happening internally so we didn't have to guess.

There are some guidelines most of us know as to basic information as to what we want to see as ingredients used but even then with out know how much or exactly what type is being used even that is rather sketchy. If you look for a feed that starts with a good meat meal or by-product meal and can follow that with another animal source ingredient or a whole grain like corn or rice, is about as far as you can get from just looking at the bag but it gives you a starting point of what to try. And then let your dog tell you from there.

Really think that is about as good as you can do.

Ezzy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:50 am

What i find annoying really ezzy is everytime someone mentions they choose a food with no grain or no corn you feel the need you have to comment on it and reiterate the fact that grains and corn are needed..there are many of us on here that do not use foods with corn or grain and our dogs do fine..and my new shorthair will be on my corn free, grain free diet and be performing just fine and my boxer is on it and is just as active year round as a "few" hunting dog breeds in the fact that SOME people only hunt 30 days a year and do some training as well but for the most part their dogs are companions and live in the house and sleep on the couch just as any other dog..its really sad that people even with PERFORMANCE dogs have to PM one another sharing the fact they use no corn and grain free dog foods instead of posting it just to avoid your/others comments about how unnecessary it is ..i think we all get your view on the subject maybe let up so others can post their food they have chosen and that work for them without having to debate with you..the FACT is not all dogs need corn and grains to perform or to be active.. also those analysis sites are just as anything else you choose to take from them what you want and other people use them as a starting point when trying a new food just as they do by ASKING opinions of others on a particular food... you dont have to continue to debate the issue with each and every person that is simply answering the post.......ruth

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:20 am

GUNDOGS wrote:What i find annoying really ezzy is everytime someone mentions they choose a food with no grain or no corn you feel the need you have to comment on it and reiterate the fact that grains and corn are needed..there are many of us on here that do not use foods with corn or grain and our dogs do fine..and my new shorthair will be on my corn free, grain free diet and be performing just fine and my boxer is on it and is just as active year round as a "few" hunting dog breeds in the fact that SOME people only hunt 30 days a year and do some training as well but for the most part their dogs are companions and live in the house and sleep on the couch just as any other dog..its really sad that people even with PERFORMANCE dogs have to PM one another sharing the fact they use no corn and grain free dog foods instead of posting it just to avoid your/others comments about how unnecessary it is ..i think we all get your view on the subject maybe let up so others can post their food they have chosen and that work for them without having to debate with you..the FACT is not all dogs need corn and grains to perform or to be active.. also those analysis sites are just as anything else you choose to take from them what you want and other people use them as a starting point when trying a new food just as they do by ASKING opinions of others on a particular food... you dont have to continue to debate the issue with each and every person that is simply answering the post.......ruth

Ruth you are being annoyed by my answer to another member that asked a question? Maybe it isn't my fault you are annoyed. We do try to answer questions when they are asked and I would rather do it openly rather than do the PM thing since everyone can see and those wanting or willing to listen and maybe learn can do it. For those that don't want to I have never called the police or made an effort to make them switch. All I can do is relay the information that I have learned. And it wasn't just something that was my opinion as it is what I did for a living for 43 years. And then did consulting work in the field for several state and multi-state organizations.

But like I said before you are free to feed what ever you like and in your case whatever you need for your dog. Why does it bother you so much, just that it is different than what you are feeding? I would feed my dogs just like you are if I had one with the problems yours has. But I sure wouldn't feed a healthy active dog the same as one with all kinds of problems.

I tend to promote corn in the diet because of what it has been proven to do. It's also a natural thing for a dog to eat and they have been fed corn for a lot longer than you have been alive. Just kind of makes sense to feed something that has been proven as one of the best sources of carbs plus the oil and protein it carries and is readily available pretty much through out our countries and has always been reasonably priced. We do have it increasing in price now with the lower supply we have in storage and the higher usage of heavy exports an the amount being used in ethanol as well as in a major part of the human food and livestock feed in the world.

Hope that answers your questions and maybe you can talk all of the people who have to send your PM's about it to just go ahead an do it here in the open as no one is going to make them feed something they don't want to. But I do understand your concern since I get a lot of them too from people who want to ask questions about some of the feed available today.

Sure like the looks of your new puppy.

Ezzy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:53 am

Ezzy i wasnt commenting on you answering questions to people thats what the forum is all about.. i was commenting on ROOSTERSMOM's post about the choice of food and the comment about native being a good corn free food..i new the moment i saw that you would comment about corn and sure enough you did..their pm was sent to you after your response about the corn and analysis agenda comment..anyway as far as giving our pup the same diet as the dog with the issues with allergies, its what most people do its what charlie and MTO4life did as well just as an example..when you are having to switch one it sometimes just make sense and is easier to switch them all especially if you are "upgrading"to a better food..its a good quality dog food that will be just fine for performing and training without issue and i do not want to buy 2 kinds of food when blue buffalo is sufficient for both dogs..and if lets say the blue doesnt do well for jersey i would defintely take that into consideration..also i dont want any chances tyson might eat jerseys food and im back to square one with him..and thank you for the comment on her

shes going to leave her mark thats for sure!!...

ruth

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:08 am

GUNDOGS wrote:Ezzy i wasnt commenting on you answering questions to people thats what the forum is all about.. i was commenting on ROOSTERSMOM's post about the choice of food and the comment about native being a good corn free food..i new the moment i saw that you would comment about corn and sure enough you did..their pm was sent to you after your response about the corn and analysis agenda comment..anyway as far as giving our pup the same diet as the dog with the issues with allergies, its what most people do its what charlie did as well just as one example..when you are having to switch one it sometimes just make sense and is easier to switch them all especially if you are "upgrading"to a better food..its a good quality dog food that will be just fine for performing and training without issue and i do not want to buy 2 kinds of food when blue buffalo is sufficient for both dogs..and if lets say the blue doesnt do well for jersey i would defintely take that into consideration..also i dont want any chances tyson might eat jerseys food and im back to square one with him..and thank you for the comment on her shes going to leave her mark thats for sure!!... ruth

Ruth if you go back and look my comment to Rooster's Mom was primarily about the link she included but I did say that the no grain feed was a good feed but just that most of us with performance dogs feed one with corn. Again, seems you may be over sensitive but it's Ok. Just glad I am consistant enough that you can count on me.

Ezzy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:21 am

ezzy333 wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:Ezzy i wasnt commenting on you answering questions to people thats what the forum is all about.. i was commenting on ROOSTERSMOM's post about the choice of food and the comment about native being a good corn free food..i new the moment i saw that you would comment about corn and sure enough you did..their pm was sent to you after your response about the corn and analysis agenda comment..anyway as far as giving our pup the same diet as the dog with the issues with allergies, its what most people do its what charlie did as well just as one example..when you are having to switch one it sometimes just make sense and is easier to switch them all especially if you are "upgrading"to a better food..its a good quality dog food that will be just fine for performing and training without issue and i do not want to buy 2 kinds of food when blue buffalo is sufficient for both dogs..and if lets say the blue doesnt do well for jersey i would defintely take that into consideration..also i dont want any chances tyson might eat jerseys food and im back to square one with him..and thank you for the comment on her shes going to leave her mark thats for sure!!... ruth
Ruth if you go back and look my comment to Rooster's Mom was primarily about the link she included but I did say that the no grain feed was a good feed but just that most of us with performance dogs feed one with corn. Again, seems you may be over sensitive but it's Ok. Just glad I am consistant enough that you can count on me.

Ezzy

Its the corn comment that i was addressing, you cant let someone just comment about it thats what i said is annoying its just like if i were to comment on EVERY post on this forum that someone mentioned performance food and tell them my no corn/grain food is better for them because my dog does fine on it..i have not commented on anyones food choice yet as its their choice..yes corn and grain may be fine for animals that dont have issues but lots of dogs do have them so the people that are commenting on them or suggesting them are just trying to help out others that may need it..Roostersmom is just one example of someone with issues with their dog and chose to share info about corn free food..yes you are consistant but i love ya

...ruth

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:21 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Native does have a grain free food but most people with preformance dogs feed a preformance food and they have grain in them. Ezzy

They do? That is news to me. Last I checked all of their formulas had grains in them.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:16 am

We have been feeding our GSP EVO Turkey & Chicken for almost 2 years with great results.

When he was on Exceed he was up to 4 cups/day, couldn't keep weight on, & had lots of "output". At 2 1/2 cups of EVO he is a good muscular weight & "output" is way down. His coat is great & energy level is GSP+++!

On days when he's trialing, hunting, or training we supplement his kibble with cooked chicken or pork or some tinned salmon when he gets home AFTER his runs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:06 am

First time I have heard of loading an animal up before running. Wonder how the marathon runners would do if they had to fill up before running? Bet there wouldn't be a single one of them finish. We don't feed the day we run the dogs and we don't feed the day we race the pigeons and we sure don't eat before swimming or working in the heat.

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:14 am

ezzy333 wrote:First time I have heard of loading an animal up before running. Wonder how the marathon runners would do if they had to fill up before running? Bet there wouldn't be a single one of them finish. We don't feed the day we run the dogs and we don't feed the day we race the pigeons and we sure don't eat before swimming or working in the heat.

Ezzy

Many marathon runners load up on carbs such as pasta before running. I don't recall if it's a few hours before or when, but it's shortly before.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:16 am

big steve46 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:First time I have heard of loading an animal up before running. Wonder how the marathon runners would do if they had to fill up before running? Bet there wouldn't be a single one of them finish. We don't feed the day we run the dogs and we don't feed the day we race the pigeons and we sure don't eat before swimming or working in the heat.

Ezzy

Many marathon runners load up on carbs such as pasta before running. I don't recall if it's a few hours before or when, but it's shortly before.

So do my dogs and pigeons, but it is the day before and not right before or during.

Everyone can do as they like but just doesn't sound like the thing to do for the animals sake.

Ezzy

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:23 am

ezzy333 wrote:First time I have heard of loading an animal up before running. Wonder how the marathon runners would do if they had to fill up before running? Bet there wouldn't be a single one of them finish. We don't feed the day we run the dogs and we don't feed the day we race the pigeons and we sure don't eat before swimming or working in the heat.

Ezzy

Really, youve never heard of feeding a dog on the morning of a hunt and feeding throughout a long day?..there are many people who feed a few hours before going out and also during a long day of hunting..ive spoke to some even on this forum..we always feed a bit in the morning(few hours before) and bring food for them be it kibble, energy bars, or whatever, some on here even feed spam and pb and j, sardines, all kinds of things..(food = energy)....yes people differ from dogs but since you brought up marathon runners..many eat huge meals during training and as i said in another thread just an example is micheal phelps he eats 12,000 calories on training days 4 hours before he begins an 8 to 10 hour exercise routine..and on the day of his events he eats 4,000 calories/carbs..i wouldnt want to stuff myself or my dogs 5 minutes before a long run but they will need food to have energy seeing as they are burning it while performing..watch a kid who hasnt eaten all day how tired they in comparison to a child who has had a good healthy breakfast...ruth

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:26 am

big steve46 wrote:Many marathon runners load up on carbs such as pasta before running. I don't recall if it's a few hours before or when, but it's shortly before.

It's in the days leading up to the race. Trust me, on race day you don't want anything bouncing around in your gut.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:53 am

Human marathon runners digest food differently than dogs. We used to "carbo load" with much greater frequency than we do today, we know more now. However, for those that do or did, it was far before activity and with enough time to insure that the digestive process was relatively complete, for most of us at least 12 hours. During an ultra marathon that maky take 6 hours or more we would consume some sugars or starches during the race, but nothing difficult to digest.

Dogs in general cannot begin using energy for about 12 hours after they eat, and they cannot be compared to children, we let puppies eat alot too. Digestion causes heat, and full stomachs are cause and concern for bloat. There is little or no evidence that says feeding a dog before pending activity even if it is extended is very helpful.

I have edited this for clarification, dry dog food is about 12 hours and raw foods are about half that.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:46 pm

I shall post this again...from Purina:

Finally, timing of meals is important in canine athletes. Exercise alters gastrointestinal transit time and therefore can change nutrient digestion and absorption. Exercise also can cause mild hypoxia in the gut due to redistribution of blood flow. In addition, the heat of digestion can increase heat load in exercising dogs that are already at risk for excessive heat production. Due to the heat of digestion, dogs fed 4 hours before exercise had higher core temperatures than those fed 17 hours before exercising. Approximately 23 hours are required for the complete digestion of a large meal in a dog. Dogs fed less than 23 hours before an exercise event may have fecal matter in the colon that can compromise performance by adding extra weight to the dog. Some researchers and dog enthusiasts theorize that feces in the colon can also cause cecal slap.1 Cecal slap is a condition during which the residual feces “slaps” against the colon causing irritation of the surrounding epithelium and perhaps inducing diarrhea during and after exercise. It is recommended that intensely exercising dogs be fed approximately 24 hours before an intense exercise bout to help alleviate problems associated with a full colon. If the sporting activity in which they are participating is a multiple day event, then dogs should be fed as soon as possible after exercise so that they have the maximum amount of time to digest the meal before the next exercise bout. It is appropriate to feed a dog only when it is no longer panting or exhibiting signs of heat stress or dehydration. Most dogs can be fed within 45 minutes of cessation of exercise.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:18 pm

Dan,

I just don't know if re posting it will help. Ruth says that she and a lot of other people feed immediately prior to and even during strenuous activity after all the time that has been spent outlining why it shouldn't be done from a health stand point and the physical dangers they are subjecting their dogs to by doing it. Seems that's the way my friend does it so I am going to to is the prevalent attitude. And that becomes more accurate and important than all of the research and experience done in the past. I have tried to explain what the research has found but I am the bad guy for questioning what they are doing and why they are doing it.

Lets hope some of them read this and find the strength to follow the procedure before they damage or lose a dog they love and allow it to perform up to it's potential. But they will have to accept they have been lucky so far before they can make the change.

Ezzy