Skinny Dog

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:22 pm

Going to show you my 8 month old DD, he seems skinny to me, he gets fed one time a day and gets 2.75 cups of Canidae ALS.

Obviously, you probably can't tell much by looking at the pics. He swims for about 30-45 min 3-4 times a week, also gets an egg 3-4 times a week with his food. He is healthy and seems to have good energy, although I did have him in the woods today for an hour and he seemed pretty tired when we were done.

What are your thoughts?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:45 pm

Whats the dog's weight? height? Intact? See what adding another cup does and split the meal. Also, it wouldn't hurt to drop a stool sample off at the vet.

He looks a bit a thin but nothing to worry about. 2 3/4 cups sounds a bit light. Intact males seems to always look thin, but usually aren't.

What are his stools like?

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:54 pm

Have you had him checked for worms/wormed him?

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:20 pm

Looks like he is pretty skinny. Why not up his food and split it between two feedings?

BTW if it is the grain free ALS you may have trouble putting/keeping weight on him.

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:22 pm

mcbosco: 23 in at shoulders, around 45-47 lbs (don't know for sure) seems like under 50 though. Intact, also, his stools are great, they seem to be a bit loose if given 3 cups at one feeding so maybe I should split it up and give 1 in am and 2.5 in pm and see what that does.

Ivermectin every month so shouldn't have worms

Regular als, not grain free.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:50 pm

23" at 45# is too skinny. My boy is 24" and 60# and has most ribs and hip bones showing. I would up his feed and split 2x/day.

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:04 pm

When he is wet, you can see all ribs and hips and most of his vertebrae, that is what is concerning is that I can't seem to get any weight on him.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:15 pm

jbo wrote:mcbosco: 23 in at shoulders, around 45-47 lbs (don't know for sure) seems like under 50 though. Intact, also, his stools are great, they seem to be a bit loose if given 3 cups at one feeding so maybe I should split it up and give 1 in am and 2.5 in pm and see what that does.

Ivermectin every month so shouldn't have worms

Regular als, not grain free.

Yeah just split it and get another cup or cup and a half in him. I am sure he will put it on. 2 3/4 is not enough. I would still drop a stool off.

If he doesn't put weight on eating that much then switch him. Ms Cornell has a hard keeper and top resources so you might wanna chat with her.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:04 pm

How much fat in that food. If it's only 15%, I'd be changing his food to one with 20% fat imo

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:49 pm

I have one that;s hard to keep weight on....I could manage him pretty well on Exceed but any
stress and he would drop all the weight it took me months to put on him.

I started him on Diamond Extreme Athlete and he has put on weight very nicely. I was amazed
at how easy the weight went on and he looks great, its only been about 4 weeks now so time will
tell.

I'm not saying the Diamond EA is the way to go but sometimes it takes some trial and error to find
a food that agrees with a hard keeper. Lucky for me all 4 of mine like the EA and all look good, in
fact I had to cut my lil female back as she was putting on weight a little too easily.

JoneSmith · Post by **JoneSmith** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:23 am

Three things can cause a dog to be underweight: parasites, disease or illness and being underfed.Feed your dog a high-quality dog food with lots of protein. Check the ingredients on the dog food the first ingredient should be chicken,turkey,lamb or even beef.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you are looking for the perfect pet grooming service and Boarding Kennel for your precious Dogs, welcome to Animal Hosptial Lexington KY and Grooming Lexington KY.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:00 am

JoneSmith wrote:Three things can cause a dog to be underweight: parasites, disease or illness and being underfed.Feed your dog a high-quality dog food with lots of protein. Check the ingredients on the dog food the first ingredient should be chicken,turkey,lamb or even beef.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you are looking for the perfect pet grooming service and Boarding Kennel for your precious Dogs, welcome to Animal Hosptial Lexington KY and Grooming Lexington KY.[/quote]

But if you are wanting to put on weight you need a feed with higher fat and carbs instead of more protein. I agree with the first ingredient being a meat meal or by-product but then you need grian, corn preferably, as the second ingredient. But it is impossible to determine the formula from reading the ingredient list and there are an awful lot of good feeds on the market to choose from.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:21 pm

+1 on the higher fat formulas. I am speaking from experience.

Charlie

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:26 pm

2.75 cups does not sound like near enough for the size and breed of your dog...I would definetly up his food!!!!

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:40 pm

That's what I think, I would get him up to 4 cups over the next few days in two meals until growth stops and the hormones ease up.

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:57 pm

I gave him 1 3/4 cups this morning and will give him 2 cups this evening and see how that works out over the next few weeks.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:22 pm

Why are you being so stingy with the food...The dog is skinny as heck....I would feed this dog 5-6 cups a day...

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:50 pm

Snips: Honestly I can't tell you why other than I thought according to the bag was working for him. I just hope I didn't cause any harm to his growth and development. I was going for the feeding once a day thing and started that when he was 6 months old and just kept feeding him the same amount, but noticed he was looking very thin and had lots of energy for about an hour and that was it, figured he was underfed. I then asked for advice and now hopefully I can judge better what he should look like and eat like.

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:34 pm

Never go by what the bag says to feed, look at the dog and adjust accordingly.
At 8 months my boys were eating 6 cups of PP Performance split into two meals, 1/3 in the morning and 2/3 in the evening. They went through the gangly thin stage but never looked like that.

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:58 pm

Well that sucks, good thing I asked. Did I harm him in any way?

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:52 pm

JBO,

Hi ,
I was having the same issues with my Weim Bing, so here is what has worked for us:

AM Feeding :

2 cups dry (I feed Exceed)
1 tablespoon plain yogurt
1 1/2 tablespoons creamy Peanutbutter ( HE loves this Store brand is fine)

the other thing I use is su-per Supplement and yes it is a Horse Vitimin it is a liquid -1 teaspoon per 50lbs if he is only 45lbs then give 1 teaspoon. I add a littl warm water mix and feed.

PM Feeding:

2 cups of dry with a littl water. and he is looking great. I am taking him out this weekend with some friends while they dove hunt, want to see how he responds.

He is a great foot warmer.

Good luck

Lisa

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:58 pm

snips wrote:Why are you being so stingy with the food...The dog is skinny as heck....I would feed this dog 5-6 cups a day...

jbo,

I think Snips was referring to my comment about 4 cups. That is almost 2,000 calories of a quality grade food. Maybe 5 is the right number but going from 2.75 cups to 5 in one day is not a good idea. If 5 is the right number, then that food is not the right one for this dog. Personally, 4 cups is too much for me. This is a mid-sized dog.

There are many feeds out there that while are more expensive by the pound are down right cheap to feed. Mine has been on a new grain-free, Salcha, from Annamaet and holds 90 ish on 3 cups. It has been in limited release for a few months now and I was offered it by a friend of the owner. My boys calculated that he runs at least 3 miles a day during the week in the yard running the back fence where the turkey and deer hang out, maybe that is less than other dogs but its still quite a bit. I have friends feeding GSP's 2.5 cups of Annamaet Ultra, the sled dog blend. Prior to that they were on 5 cups of a Purina feed.

Feeding 6 cups of PPP would cost a fortune compared to something like Annamaet Ultra or Red Paw, that is another good working blend out of Fromm.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:33 pm

Diamond EA 32-25 , 34.00/40lbs (29 on sale) , stuff is dense. Exceed floats in water, diamond EA doesn't.

Ive cut back on amount and they still put on weight....might be worth a try.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:48 pm

I have lots of young males here (hardest to get weight on) and they easily eat 5-6 cups a day. Sometimes more..Best to break it up to 2 meals a day, I do smaller meal in the a.m. I always feed a dog twice a day til they are a yr old at least...Winter I feed twice a day...

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:51 pm

stlgsp wrote:Never go by what the bag says to feed, look at the dog and adjust accordingly.
At 8 months my boys were eating 6 cups of PP Performance split into two meals, 1/3 in the morning and 2/3 in the evening. They went through the gangly thin stage but never looked like that.

This is good advise and exactly right. I doubt that you have done any harm.

Charlie

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:56 pm

snips wrote:I have lots of young males here (hardest to get weight on) and they easily eat 5-6 cups a day. Sometimes more..Best to break it up to 2 meals a day, I do smaller meal in the a.m. I always feed a dog twice a day til they are a yr old at least...Winter I feed twice a day...

Is it a lighter kibble, weight-wise? The feeds I referred to weigh 4 - 4.5 ounces per cup by volume and about 500 cals ME

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:58 pm

Maybe it's just my observations but comparing what an adult male eats to what an 8 month old male is going to eat is not the same. While my boys were eating 6 cups at 8 months, at 15 months they are down to around 4 cups with regular exercise. My 6 year old (60 lb) is eating 2 cups of PPP, maybe a little less during the heat of the summer when we're not running & training as much and more during hunting season.

In this dogs case, I would slowly increase his until he gets to where he's looking good and holding weight.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:07 pm

The parasiticide you are using does not protect against whipworms. A thin dog with a weak coat is typical of infection with whips. You might give a course of fenbendazole and see if it improves his thriftiness and coat.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:17 pm

Would still like to verify your feeding the regular Canidae als. If so, according to the web sire, it contains 14.5% crude fat. Heck, I could eat 20 cups of Jello a day and I wouldn't gain wait. I would make sure your feeding a good quality feed with 20% or more fat content.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:40 pm

mcbosco wrote:
snips wrote:I have lots of young males here (hardest to get weight on) and they easily eat 5-6 cups a day. Sometimes more..Best to break it up to 2 meals a day, I do smaller meal in the a.m. I always feed a dog twice a day til they are a yr old at least...Winter I feed twice a day...
Is it a lighter kibble, weight-wise? The feeds I referred to weigh 4 - 4.5 ounces per cup by volume and about 500 cals ME

You just need to see a hard working, hard keeping dog. Like a 20 yr. old construction worker that hits the gym after work for fun. 20 oz sirloin for the appetizer.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:46 am

Slistoe, no I don't. I played college Rugby and know how athletes eat. I also tutored two first round NFL draft picks in college and ate with them. If what your getting is that athletes eat an indiscriminate amount of calories well you are wrong. As for a canine athlete of this size, they only require 6 cups of food because the food is an inferior product.

Three gun dogs are in the top ten for bloat risk, Weims, GSP's & Setters, both Gordons & ES's, so really 4 of the top ten. No sense in adding to the risk.

I like your steak example, but corn-based kibble is not steak. In fact PPP has very little animal protein and generally low grade ingredients at a premium price. You can wax poetic about trainers' stories and corn, but really it is an economics-based argument needing an alternative rationalization.

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:32 am

Hmmm, have fed it for years and currently have 7 dogs that are doing well on the inferior product. I’ve tried others and end up going back for many reasons, among them it’s easy to get, and I get a very good price.

During their teenage years my sons were eating three to four times what their dad was and were pretty thin. I guess I should have fed them better too :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:59 am

mcbosco wrote:Slistoe, no I don't. I played college Rugby and know how athletes eat. I also tutored two first round NFL draft picks in college and ate with them. If what your getting is that athletes eat an indiscriminate amount of calories well you are wrong. As for a canine athlete of this size, they only require 6 cups of food because the food is an inferior product.

Three gun dogs are in the top ten for bloat risk, Weims, GSP's & Setters, both Gordons & ES's, so really 4 of the top ten. No sense in adding to the risk.

I like your steak example, but corn-based kibble is not steak. In fact PPP has very little animal protein and generally low grade ingredients at a premium price. You can wax poetic about trainers' stories and corn, but really it is an economics-based argument needing an alternative rationalization.

Thanks for this info. We are lucky that someone who knows so much about nutrition and is willing to share with all of us that use the inferior products to feed the healthiest most active dogs in the country.

Ezzy

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:46 am

Why not feed 2 times a day at least on days he is not going out to hunt. Needs more food I think per day. Also I would be using a digestive enzyme supplemet like PROZYME or similar product with each meal too. I have also used Animal Naturals Show Stopper supplement. It is high fat and can help too.
http://www.k9power.com http://www.prozymeproducts.com

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:55 am

Thanks everyone for the reply's. I have now switched to feeding twice a day today is day two and will continue to do this and on days that I will hunt him I will give him just a little in the am.

Thanks Again
Jeremiah

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:15 pm

mcbosco wrote:Slistoe, no I don't. I played college Rugby and know how athletes eat. I also tutored two first round NFL draft picks in college and ate with them. If what your getting is that athletes eat an indiscriminate amount of calories well you are wrong. As for a canine athlete of this size, they only require 6 cups of food because the food is an inferior product.

Three gun dogs are in the top ten for bloat risk, Weims, GSP's & Setters, both Gordons & ES's, so really 4 of the top ten. No sense in adding to the risk.

I like your steak example, but corn-based kibble is not steak. In fact PPP has very little animal protein and generally low grade ingredients at a premium price. You can wax poetic about trainers' stories and corn, but really it is an economics-based argument needing an alternative rationalization.

I should have spent more time thinking about my post. I didn't realize I had said so much in that sentence. A literary genius I am.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:58 am

All I know here is I have gotten several dogs in to train that were "bones"...I asked the person why that were so skinny and they said they did not know, they fed recommended amount :roll: After a couple weeks of twice a day and pouring it to them they looked like different dogs...

When I speak on here it is generally from personal experience, and that is what I try to contribute..

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:26 am

I do have one more question, when running him a lot which I hope to do soon, how much do I up the feed intake or would it maybe be better to switch to a higher protein/fat food.

The food I am currently using is like 24/14.5 and would a food with say 26/19 be better or 30/20 or does it depend on the dog.

Thanks

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:00 am

I would go to 30/20. I like 20 in fat. Just my preference. I would have him on it now..Maybe mix it with what you have til it's gone.

jbo · Post by **jbo** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:28 am

Thanks

I will be looking for some food like that. I know I can get loyall locally at a feed store which is big, because we can't get much up here in the sticks. They have the professional in stock so I will probably try that out and see what happens.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:29 am

See how he does with added food but you might find a 30/20 more economical and convenient if the 30/20 is more than just an adult grade food pumped up with corn gluten and wheat. Then you wont see the results you want and you will overpay most likely. IMO, if a dog that size and that age can't thrive on a reasonable amount of kibble per day by the the pound or cup then the feed is not worth the money. Reasonable for me is 3 - 3.5 cups for a dog working on a regular basis and a reasonable amount.

I have found the sled dog foods are the best deal and the best quality without one doubt. Just look at the ingredients of Annamaet Ultra, Red Paw, Dr. Tim's and others compared to say PPP. If I am going to pay for a BMW I expect to get one, not a legacy.

The problem for some is availablity and that is something to consider.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:31 am

ezzy333 wrote:
mcbosco wrote:Slistoe, no I don't. I played college Rugby and know how athletes eat. I also tutored two first round NFL draft picks in college and ate with them. If what your getting is that athletes eat an indiscriminate amount of calories well you are wrong. As for a canine athlete of this size, they only require 6 cups of food because the food is an inferior product.

Three gun dogs are in the top ten for bloat risk, Weims, GSP's & Setters, both Gordons & ES's, so really 4 of the top ten. No sense in adding to the risk.

I like your steak example, but corn-based kibble is not steak. In fact PPP has very little animal protein and generally low grade ingredients at a premium price. You can wax poetic about trainers' stories and corn, but really it is an economics-based argument needing an alternative rationalization.

Thanks for this info. We are lucky that someone who knows so much about nutrition and is willing to share with all of us that use the inferior products to feed the healthiest most active dogs in the country.

Ezzy

Would you care to wager on that?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:18 am

ditto what snips is saying. It's just not enough for him at his age. Birddogs are just athletes. And while they are maturing especially the males, from 7 months to 16 months or so it's like feeing a 15 year old who's a cross coutry or track competitor. My doc tells me to stay at about 1300 calories a day, but no way is that going to keep that track guy alive and competative. They are running althletes! I feed as much as it takes but have never had a maturing male eat less than 4 cups a day on any food. Usually more like 6-7 and often have spilt it into 3 feedings. And I have fed some pretty high calorie feeds when I could get them. I supplement with venison (cooked or not, NO SALT) when we are deerhunting, and I keep them on interceptor. When you get the weight on you'll be amazed and how much better his coat will look, and he'll muscle up fast. You don't want an overweight dog, that's bad for his joints, but you'll see a big difference when you get several more pounds on.
As to what food, what ingredients, evils of corn, raw whatever, you do what works for you and your dog. Do not be swayed by all the hype from either side unless they are also feeding your dog on your budget.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:49 pm

As to what food, what ingredients, evils of corn, raw whatever, you do what works for you and your dog. Do not be swayed by all the hype from either side unless they are also feeding your dog on your budget.

This great advice. There is only one way to tell how much to feed and that is to look at your dog. It's the only one that knows and thaT INCLUDES EVERYONE OF ON THIS FORUM AS WELL AS THE LISTING ON THE BAGS. Let your dog do the talking. he will tell you what works and what doesn't and how much he needs.

Ezzy

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:55 pm

jbo,

I fed Loyall for a while and my guys did well on it but the only store that stocked it in our area kept running out. If they would keep it in stock regularly I would probably go back. I also like the fat at 20. I don't remember if it was High Performance at 24/20 or Professional at 31/20 that I fed. When you start running him more and he starts getting thin again, feed a little more until he's back where he needs to be.