Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

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Bossman27
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Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:01 am

My 7 month old GSP may have a partial ACL Tear, with him being super young the vet said she is not sure what the course of action would be due to him not being fully developed. Has anyone had a pup this young with an ACL injury? Can anyone reccomend a course of action for me? Obviously I'm devistated due to the fact that he was set to leave for training in 3 weeks and I was super excited to hunt him this year but obviously I need to be realistic and come up with a course of action to have a hunting dog for the next 10 years and not just this year.

Can anyone give me some advice on what to expect and what types of surgery options there are out there. I know that I can expect the next knee to go if this one is indeed torn. Any opinions or perspective options would be appreciated.

My vet told me she thinks its not fully torn but most likely partially torn but she didn't reccomend an MRI or X-Ray yet. She said to give it a week and see if it is possibly sprained and improves.

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jlp8cornell
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:25 am

If it is partially torn, it WILL fully tear. You want to deal with it now before the meniscus is torn as well. Also, the longer you wait, arthritis sets in. I just typed a long post on this. Let me find it.

The thing is, the lameness will be off and on. Sometimes your dog will be non-weight bearing, other times fine. That does not mean you should wait. Getting ahead of these problems is the way to go, especially in a young, highly active dogs! Wait and see does not work. Also, if your vet is having a hard time diagnosing this, time to see a vet with more experience in the orthopedic area.

There are a few different surgeries- TPLO, extra-cap suture, TTA....important to find someone skilled in this area.


PS- XRAY/MRI not used to diagnose a CCL tear. Vet should be able to diagnose quickly with a 'cranial drawer' test. (hands on test- detects stability or lack thereof in stifle)
Last edited by jlp8cornell on Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:26 am

OK, here is something I posted a couple weeks ago. Mine is the 2nd response I think. Again, if you want more info, shoot me an email at jlp8@cornell.edu

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 69&t=24064

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Bossman27
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:28 am

I appreciate the response, she did a drawer test and said there was a tiny bit of movement but with a puppy that old she wasn't sure if it was due to injury. I'm not sure if she didn't know what she was talking about or what but that was what we got from her.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:31 am

My advice: go to a specialist. Where re you located?

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:53 am

Minneapolis, MN. My parents' lab tore his ACL and had surgery done by a vet at the UofMN who I think was far from a specialist. Obviously the results were catastrophic, any referrals would be appreciated.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:05 am

Posting to 2 ortho chat groups to see if anyone has a recommendation. Will let you know.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by buckwildbirddogs » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:53 pm

Our GSP broke her leg at 6mo. One thing I learned through all of it was do not wait to go to the specialist. Go there first if available.
We went to our local vet first. And though she was great. We still ended up going to the specialist in the end.
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by snips » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:05 pm

My instinct would be to leave the dog up for 2-3 weeks and see if there is improvement. If not then pursue someone with knowledge.
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by dog dr » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:47 am

unfortunately the only way to definitively diagnose an ACL tear is via surgery (openeing up the joint) OR I suppose you could do a scope of the joint, if you have the equipment (most vets dont). cranial drawer has its limitations in my opinion, but its the best non-invasive way to evaluate it. sometimes if the dog doesnt totally relax, or if its a partial tear, its pretty hard to evaluate effectively.

what signs are you seeing with the dog?? how lame is she on the leg? is it all the time or does it come and go?

at this point, some R & R for a couple weeks to see how she responds wouldnt hurt anything in my opinion.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:29 am

Can't agree more wih Snips and dog dr. Rest should be the first line and then if that doesn't tae care of it then start with the medical procedures.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:00 pm

One morning he woke up and he was favoring his back right. As the day went on it got progressively worse. He was acting a bit better the next day but we took him to the vet just to be safe and she said the drawer test was inconclusive but you could tell the pain was in his knee area. There has been no swelling at all; She gave us some rimadil(sp?) and told us to wait two weeks to see how he would respond. Yesterday he was super hyper and acting normal, you could tell he was somewhat favoring but not lifting his leg at all, he was still walking on it and he was sitting fine. This morning my wife let him out without his leash and he took off, he came up somewhat lame on it but now he has been fine again all day. We're going to be more safe and have him on his leash for two weeks and hope for the best.

To be honest this is the first time I've dealt with this so I'm not sure how it presents. He never yelped or had a moment where I can imagine he would have hurt it, the knee hasn't been swolen at all, and he was only favoring it for a day so that keeps me posivie.

However, i dont know what else it could have been to have him be lame on it for a day and it did bother him a little bit when he ran on my wife.

I just dont know what else it could be, my best guess is it is a small partial tear, however, I am seriously hoping it is something else like a sprain of some sort but I don't want to be unrealistic.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by snips » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:26 pm

Maybe Pano? Thats pretty common.
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:37 am

I just don't know how this presents itself and how lame dogs get with the injury. Yesterday he really wasn't lame at all, there was no noticeable limp, he was sitting normal, he was scratching his face with his 'bad' leg and we didn't give him any of the painkillers the vet gave us. We didn't let him run at all so we really don't know how he would react the that but I just don't know what to think!

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by snips » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:47 am

Pano
brenda

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:16 pm

Our biggest problem right now is trying to keep him calm for two weeks. He's 7 months old so all he wants to do is run and play and his is starting to flip out in his crate. He'll walk fine on it and he'll be heeled on his leash then he'll freak out and start jumping around then limp for a minute then go back to normal. If they can't operate on it for another 4 months and it is a slight tear I dont know what I'm going to do because hes going to flip out if he is not able to run for that long and to him he feels ok.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by snips » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:13 am

Anyone hear me???? Have you looked at Pano???????? I would bet the bank thats all it is. :idea: That is the growing age it can show up. If your dog did not do anything running, just woke up lame I would look at this.
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:40 pm

snips wrote:Anyone hear me???? Have you looked at Pano???????? I would bet the bank thats all it is. :idea: That is the growing age it can show up. If your dog did not do anything running, just woke up lame I would look at this.
haha yeah I've done a lot of research on this and I am starting to suspect it's pano. Taking him for an Xray on Wednesday to try and confirm. I am hoping its pano, hes been growing a ton lately...up to 50 pounds at 7.5 months and he is thin as a rail.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by wems2371 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:36 pm

I went through Pano with my first shorthair from around 11thru 18 months, and it's frustrating at first, trying to figure out what it is...and I know how it is to worry about the worst case scenario. I was told by my vet that an x-ray can't confirm Pano. I don't know what there would be to see...or maybe you're ruling out other stuff? My pup's started in a front leg, and my vet did palpation and some range of movement tests with no solid finds, and from my description--suspected Pano. I kept a log of what leg was affected, the dates of onset and duration, and the events surrounding--like if she just woke up limping or what not. That all helped to confirm that it was Pano and eased my mind some. While pano is frustrating...hopefully that or a sprain is all you're dealing with.

Out of curiosity, is your pup neutered?

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:59 pm

Yes my dog is neutered, I mindlessly listened to my vet's advice to neuter at 6mo like a fool...never again. I'm not one to take someone's word and do research on the back end but this time I did for some reason and felt like a sucker.

As for the X-Ray, in most cases Pano can be confirmed with an X-Ray. It leaves lesions on the effected bone. As seen in the example below.

http://www.critterchat.net/pano.htm

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by snips » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:13 pm

Anymore when I see some lameness in a dog that age I skip the xray and just go for anti-inflammatories for a couple of weeks....All good:)
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by wems2371 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:26 am

Bossman27 wrote:Yes my dog is neutered, I mindlessly listened to my vet's advice to neuter at 6mo like a fool...never again.
I only ask, because I spayed my first female at 6 months, and she grew like a weed afterwards. I keep in touch with littermates and even hunt with a male littermate, that she is bigger than. After the fact, I read about spaying effecting long bone growth, hormones and such. Never again here either...that young anyway.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by dog dr » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:47 pm

Bossman27 wrote:
As for the X-Ray, in most cases Pano can be confirmed with an X-Ray. It leaves lesions on the effected bone. As seen in the example below.

http://www.critterchat.net/pano.htm

not in my experience, for what its worth. i have only ben able to actually see the lesions on the rads once.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Bossman27 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:00 pm

He got a clean bill of health today, I feel like a bafoon for being nuerotic but boy am I excited about the news, I appreciate all the advice it was extremely helpful.
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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by wems2371 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:00 pm

Terrific news and a good looking pup. :mrgreen:

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by Petra » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:17 am

My older dog is at the 8th week of her 2nd ACL SURGERY, two different knees, two diff. surgeries, and two diff.surgeons, I would recommend both, her first ACL surgery is in a latter post with the whole exp. contact me if you would like names and more info., with such a young dog, I definitely agree with everyone else, your dog needs a vet with ALOT! of knowledge concerning this. GOOD LUCK! obviously posted before reading the last post, ( next page ) even so, very happy with the outcome, your not neurotic, you love your dogs, ACL is a tough one to deal with. I looked at your dogs picture, nice tight feet?, my young male, in my avatar, suddenly became lame, it moved to diff legs, went to the vet, she did test for lymes, not it, some other things, nothing diagnosed, I took a good look at his feet, the vet did not, I only did because I had a GSP that was prone to the cysts between the toes, well, the feet are tight and if I don't keep the nails a curtain length and round the edges next to the toe inside of it, the nail will rub on the other toe and create a blister, some were hidden by hair, and he acted lame,.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by desertcountrygsp » Wed May 04, 2011 12:19 pm

So it sounds like R&R really did good for your pup? Im facing the same problem right now and I am hoping the 2 - 3 weeks off will help him with his injury. I know snips said crate rest from the get go and thats what my vet said also. I can totally relate to the sick feeling. Im at a loss at this point.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by jlp8cornell » Wed May 04, 2011 7:46 pm

desertcountrygsp: Does your dog have a patellar ligament tear or a CCL tear??? A CCL (ACL as said by some) tear will not heal from 2 weeks of crate rest. Just curious as to what she was diagnosed with.......

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by desertcountrygsp » Wed May 04, 2011 8:23 pm

Hard for me to describe it. She said there are 2 ligaments that go over the knee cap and I think its one of them. She also took his leg and brought it halfway up to his chest and was bending his lower leg outward, pressing on the ligaments near the knee to check for abnormal movement. Its hard to describe but she said there was movement there that should not happen. She said there was a chance of an ACL tear, but never said thats what it was. Just talked about the other ligaments that cross the knee cap and those possibly being torn. I hope that kinda clears it up a bit.

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Re: Partial ACL Tear - 7 mo old GSP pup - Question.

Post by punch » Sun May 22, 2011 9:05 am

jlp8cornell wrote:desertcountrygsp: Does your dog have a patellar ligament tear or a CCL tear??? A CCL (ACL as said by some) tear will not heal from 2 weeks of crate rest. Just curious as to what she was diagnosed with.......
I am also curious with the diagnosis because my dog just had tight-rope surgery and having the condition diagnosed and corrected at an earlier phase of the disease certainly saved my dog's limb and assured of a better recovery.

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