Dog food

redman25
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Dog food

Post by redman25 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:44 pm

I'm getting a gsp pup in a few months and I've been reading every review and report on all different brands of food. Can anyone simplify this a little for me? I don't want to spend a fortune, but I want my pup to start out right and continue to be healthy for a long life. I've read horror stories about many of the Diamond and Canidae products which I was leaning towards. Orijen and Blue Buffalo are outrageously priced. Just need some direction.

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Re: Dog food

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:21 pm

I feed Loyall performance to my pups

Basically I just use a good premium Adult performance food for the puppies...My pups have done extremely well over the years doing this
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Re: Dog food

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:10 pm

redman25 wrote:I'm getting a gsp pup in a few months and I've been reading every review and report on all different brands of food. Can anyone simplify this a little for me? I don't want to spend a fortune, but I want my pup to start out right and continue to be healthy for a long life. I've read horror stories about many of the Diamond and Canidae products which I was leaning towards. Orijen and Blue Buffalo are outrageously priced. Just need some direction.
Well I am sure you have heard real horror stories about Diamond but the formula change that Canidae did a few years back doesn't qualify as a horror story to me. While I a sure some dogs needed a few days to adapt, I don't recall anything more than that. Dozens of dogs died eating Diamond dog food and the government's investigation uncovered a ton more than just bad corn. There was just a recall of cat food too, a few cats died from poor quality vitamins.

Canidae remains a top food with very few complaints and, while not cheap, is a great value. Where I live, its 37.99 for the 44lb bag. Costco's food is a good deal as well.

If you can find Annamaet in your area that is a good way to go as well.
Last edited by mcbosco on Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dog food

Post by jbo » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:12 pm

Try the brands you are thinking about using and let your dog tell you what works for them. They may do poorly on one food that you think is top notch but better on one you may not think is very good. Obviously, you will have your standards but take those criteria and find what your dog likes and does well on within that criteria.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:58 pm

I have used Diamond feeds for years and always has and continues to do a good job and I would rate it as very near the top when you compare quality to price. The horror stories you probably heard as far as Diamond is concerned was the aflatoxin that got into the feed from one of their facilities. There were a few dogs died but it was caught and corrected quickly after it was discovered. And of course once that happens the quality assurance is picked up and you can rest assured that it won't happen again with them. Canidae had undisclosed problems for a year or two but they didn't voluntarily recall their feed like Diamond did and wouldn't even admit they had a problem but it pretty well killed their business here in the mid-west plus the cost doesn't help them either. But as far as I know their problem has been resolved and it is a pretty good feed I think but overpriced.

The other feeds you mentioned I wouldn't even consider just on price alone. They are good feeds as far as I know but are priced way out of the market. Those feeds cater to people with a little lap dog that think it is a child and think the more they spend on the feed the better it is and they feel better about themselves. But the dog does just like he would on any other good feed.

My advice is don't get hung up on the horror stories you hear because they are just that, horror stories. No matter what you decide to feed there is always the possibility you could get some bad feed but the likely hood is really slim just like it is with the food we eat. There is more problems with our foods than there is with any pet food.

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Re: Dog food

Post by redman25 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:10 pm

Much appreciation for all the info. I will definitely keep all of it in mind when making my choices. Really glad I found this site, because I'm going to need the help!

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Re: Dog food

Post by MikeB » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:22 pm

Redman25,

What does the breeder of your new pup recommend or what are they feeding the pups now? I would at least stay with that for a while until you change.

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Re: Dog food

Post by birddogger » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:40 pm

I'm getting a gsp pup in a few months and I've been reading every review and report on all different brands of food. Can anyone simplify this a little for me?
It is very easy to simplify and it has been stated on here many times. Feed your dog what you can afford, your dog does well on and is easily available. All of the name brand feeds are good, some dogs may do better on one than the other but I believe most dogs will do well on most of the name brands. I think your puppy would do fine on either Diamond or Canidae as he would on many other feeds out there. Personally, I wouldn't pay the price Canidae sells for when I can get just as good food a lot cheaper. Whatever brand you choose, make sure you get the right formula for your dog's activity level.

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Re: Dog food

Post by redman25 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:24 am

I just sent the breeder an email asking what he feeds and I am waiting for a reply. Pups aren't due for 4 more weeks, so I have a few months to figure this out. Just wanted to get a jump on things. I'm not going to do anything drastic and pay an outrageous amount of money for a dog food, but I know what the additives and preservatives that are in our food is doing to our health. I try to watch those things in my diet, and my dog will be a member of the family, so I'd like to at least give those things a little consideration.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:20 am

redman25 wrote:I just sent the breeder an email asking what he feeds and I am waiting for a reply. Pups aren't due for 4 more weeks, so I have a few months to figure this out. Just wanted to get a jump on things. I'm not going to do anything drastic and pay an outrageous amount of money for a dog food, but I know what the additives and preservatives that are in our food is doing to our health. I try to watch those things in my diet, and my dog will be a member of the family, so I'd like to at least give those things a little consideration.
Those additives and perservatives are there by law and that came about to protect your health and well being. And they have done a wonderful job. People are living much longer every generation, getting bigger and stronger, and are enjoying their longer life. And much of it is due to their healthier eating. I do think we may be about to go the other way now though since we let our kids eat whatever they like instead of whats needed for proper nutrition. And I see the same thing happening with our dogs as we have too many people with not enough to do become nutritionist.

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Re: Dog food

Post by redman25 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:12 pm

Yeah, and pharmaceutical companies are peddling drugs for our well being too. It has nothing to do with profit. We'll agree to disagree. I do appreciate your help with the dog food question though. Thanks.

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Re: Dog food

Post by bossman » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:12 pm

You have several good options. I would first also suggest you find out what the breeder is feeding, and why. If you shop at the big retail chains,ie; Petsmart, take a look at Purina Pro Plan or Eukanuba. If you do business with a local feed store, take a look at Exclussive (made by PMI), Enhance (made by Arkat) or Black Gold. All good food and, with the exception of Euk...reasonable priced, atleast in my opinion. As so many have said before me, find a feed that the pup does well on and stay with it...And as Ezzy reminds us..the pup will tell you what he's doing well on...Good luck

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Re: Dog food

Post by birddogger » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:09 pm

redman25 wrote:Yeah, and pharmaceutical companies are peddling drugs for our well being too. It has nothing to do with profit. We'll agree to disagree. I do appreciate your help with the dog food question though. Thanks.
There will be no profit if it is not a good product. We have drugs today to treat diseases that at one time couldn't even be diagnosed. Additionally, dog foods have improved immensely from years past...Do the companies make a profit? Ofcourse they do, we wouldn't have the products if there weren't profits to be made. The dog food companies who are making the biggest profits per item sold are the ones making the high priced exotic foods that are not at all necessary for a healthy dog.

BTW, all the brands that bossman mentioned are good along with many others.

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Re: Dog food

Post by redman25 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:53 pm

Thanks bossman. Guys I didn't mean to ruffle feathers by mentioning additives and preservatives. Everyone has their own opinion. Appreciate the help.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:05 pm

redman25 wrote:Thanks bossman. Guys I didn't mean to ruffle feathers by mentioning additives and preservatives. Everyone has their own opinion. Appreciate the help.

I don't think you ruffled any feathers but a couple of us that are probably older and have more experiece than you and have witnessed first hand what these additives have accomplished were just trying to give you some facts. Opinions are fine but they sure restrict good common sense when they are off base and I for one hate to see that happen to anyone. Opinions are just that but the facts are proven with research.

Have a good one and no problem here with anyone stating their opinion.

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Re: Dog food

Post by postoakshorthairs » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:57 am

People are living much longer every generation, getting bigger and stronger, and are enjoying their longer life. And much of it is due to their healthier eating.
Opinions are just that but the facts are proven with research.
Ezzy,
Now come on! I must take exception to this comment, especially because you told the OP that "opinions are wrong but restrict good common sense". You really think people are living longer lives and getting bigger and stronger because of food additives and eating a healthier diet? I guess that's your opinion but it is certainly not the common opinion among the medical population. You really believe that if you take the exact same diets, one grown organically and eaten fresh and one packed with hormones, additives and preservatives, and eaten months later, that the second one would be healthier?

Humans, especially in America, suffer from a higher percentage of obesity now, more than ever, and generally lead the world in the percentage of obesity. Heart disease, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc. are all at all time highs.... almost all attributed, at least to some degree, to their diets. The simple fact is that people are living longer, by average, because we have developed medical care to prevent many of the things that used to kill us...i.e.: through vaccination programs and preventative care, and we now have the know how to fix many of the problems that we bring upon ourselves...bypass surgery, cleaning out carotid arteries, stroke protocols, transplants, statins etc.

I can tell you this from experience...in the last twenty years I have spent in the critical care/air transport of human patients there has been a dramatic increase in the number of humans under 40 suffering heart attacks and strokes (I flew several in their early 20's having heart attacks).... almost all of them were bigger, but not healthier and stronger.

Now that I’m off my soapbox about this I will say that preservatives were developed to extend the shelf lives of products (to protect consumers from eating spoiled products and to extend the marketability of products) so in that regard I will agree, at least to some degree, that they are helpful to consumers. I know this post is exactly on topic but i thought someone should chime in.

JMO

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Re: Dog food

Post by mcbosco » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:31 am

postoakshorthairs wrote:
People are living much longer every generation, getting bigger and stronger, and are enjoying their longer life. And much of it is due to their healthier eating.
Opinions are just that but the facts are proven with research.
Ezzy,
Now come on! I must take exception to this comment, especially because you told the OP that "opinions are wrong but restrict good common sense". You really think people are living longer lives and getting bigger and stronger because of food additives and eating a healthier diet? I guess that's your opinion but it is certainly not the common opinion among the medical population. You really believe that if you take the exact same diets, one grown organically and eaten fresh and one packed with hormones, additives and preservatives, and eaten months later, that the second one would be healthier?

Humans, especially in America, suffer from a higher percentage of obesity now, more than ever, and generally lead the world in the percentage of obesity. Heart disease, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc. are all at all time highs.... almost all attributed, at least to some degree, to their diets. The simple fact is that people are living longer, by average, because we have developed medical care to prevent many of the things that used to kill us...i.e.: through vaccination programs and preventative care, and we now have the know how to fix many of the problems that we bring upon ourselves...bypass surgery, cleaning out carotid arteries, stroke protocols, transplants, statins etc.

I can tell you this from experience...in the last twenty years I have spent in the critical care/air transport of human patients there has been a dramatic increase in the number of humans under 40 suffering heart attacks and strokes (I flew several in their early 20's having heart attacks).... almost all of them were bigger, but not healthier and stronger.

Now that I’m off my soapbox about this I will say that preservatives were developed to extend the shelf lives of products (to protect consumers from eating spoiled products and to extend the marketability of products) so in that regard I will agree, at least to some degree, that they are helpful to consumers. I know this post is exactly on topic but i thought someone should chime in.

JMO

I was going to say something but he seems to be having fun with this kind of industry-centric stuff. I don't think when he was a young boy 10 years olds were 150lbs and diabetic or that 60% of the population suffered from obesity. Diet is not the only factor but its the primary factor. This kind of reminds me of an old Star Trek when the crew was so happy that science gave them synthesized food. Bones turned to everyone and said "Get some real food"

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:34 am

Good post Post Oaks, And I will agree with some of what you say.
Now come on! I must take exception to this comment, especially because you told the OP that "opinions are wrong but restrict good common sense". You really think people are living longer lives and getting bigger and stronger because of food additives and eating a healthier diet? I guess that's your opinion but it is certainly not the common opinion among the medical population. You really believe that if you take the exact same diets, one grown organically and eaten fresh and one packed with hormones, additives and preservatives, and eaten months later, that the second one would be healthier?
Food additives in the areas of vitamins and minerals are improving our diet and that in turn has been one of the reasons behind our being healthier, bigger, and stronger. It also has been a contributing factor in our obesity along with the primary factor of less and less exercise. The rest of your statement just doesn't make sense. I am not advocating using preservatives in our food stuffs so they can be eaten months later, but I do know you will find higher quality food that is raised in areas that use high fertilization and chemical control of insects and other pests that you ever will in the "organic" food fad we are experiencing.And even the medical society is beginning to admit the same thing as we are finding much more problems in the health food produce than there has been in the regular produce. The use of additives does enhance the nutritional quality of foods just as it does the safety factor. But lets eat them at the same time and not a month later.
I can tell you this from experience...in the last twenty years I have spent in the critical care/air transport of human patients there has been a dramatic increase in the number of humans under 40 suffering heart attacks and strokes (I flew several in their early 20's having heart attacks).... almost all of them were bigger, but not healthier and stronger.
I can't argue about your experience in this area but I would have thought the same thing till I heard just yesterday that the heart attacks were down 25% in the past ten years. But I still think we are going to pay a big price for all of our kids growing up with Nintendo and television rather than hard work, mowing lawns, and playing ball on the sandlots. Plus I do wonder if some of the same problems occur with our kids as they do with the dogs that grow too fast and eat too much.

OK I am off my soap box too so back to the dogs and I still never have read a bag label to see if they use preservatives or not as I really don't care. Never have heard of a case of anyone or any dog dying from being over preserved.

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Re: Dog food

Post by postoakshorthairs » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:29 am

I can't argue about your experience in this area but I would have thought the same thing till I heard just yesterday that the heart attacks were down 25% in the past ten years. But I still think we are going to pay a big price for all of our kids growing up with Nintendo and television rather than hard work, mowing lawns, and playing ball on the sandlots. Plus I do wonder if some of the same problems occur with our kids as they do with the dogs that grow too fast and eat too much.
I am not familiar with the exact percentage that you quoted, but i am aware that actual "heart attacks" are going down in percentages. That is not because we are getting healthier it is because of the push for earlier intervention and testing. Diagnostic cardiac caths, stress tests, lipid profiling etc. has led to angioplasty, stenting, early bypass to prevent cardiac muscle death from heart attacks. I use the analogy of pipes in an old house...you can either wait until they bust or clog and cause damage or you can clean them out and replace them with new parts to prevent the damage. I worked with a guy who never had a heart attack but 8 years ago at 50 began experiencing fatigue, shortness of breath etc. had a cath and had 6 bypasses...i'm just saying that the studies don't always tell the whole story.

To the point about the kids sitting on their butts....I totally agree. When i was 12 our little league had 8 teams busting with players. Now the exact same league (no change in population) has three teams. I blame much of this on the parents setting the example with diet, exersize, and lifestyle.

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Re: Dog food

Post by redman25 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:21 pm

Yeah, exercise is the biggest part of what's missing for a lot of us these days. Still, mother nature knows best, and saying that adding chemicals to food is in some way improving that just isn't true. If I have to choose between a tomato off of the vine in my back yard, or one from Wal mart that has been polluted with pesticides, I'll just step out back. Not realistic in our society most of the time, but the better choice if given one. We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, becsaue guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.

I have gotten good information on some good quality dog foods from you guys, and once again, thank you

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Re: Dog food

Post by birddogger » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:32 pm

I just have to chime in one more time. Everybody is making some good points here, but when it comes to preservatives in food, they are there for a reason. There was a time when many people got sick and even died because of tainted food. I admit, I miss the home butchered meat, the homemade butter and the milk and cream straight from the cow etc. and if you live on a farm and want to provide for yourself, I see nothing wrong with that. But in a society such as we have today where most people get their food from supermarkets, there has to be a process to make it safe. I want preservatives in the food I buy. :wink:

Poastoaks, I see alot of young people dying of heart attacks too, but the ones I see are grossly overweight for one thing. We may have the perception that more young people are having heart attacks because of the field we work in and when it happens we see it. I hope this makes sense.

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Re: Dog food

Post by birddogger » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:44 pm

redman25 wrote:Yeah, exercise is the biggest part of what's missing for a lot of us these days. Still, mother nature knows best, and saying that adding chemicals to food is in some way improving that just isn't true. If I have to choose between a tomato off of the vine in my back yard, or one from Wal mart that has been polluted with pesticides, I'll just step out back. Not realistic in our society most of the time, but the better choice if given one. We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, becsaue guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.

I have gotten good information on some good quality dog foods from you guys, and once again, thank you
The bottom line may be the number one priority but in a capitalistic society there is a thing called competition and the consumer wins. We are heading towards a socialistic society and if and when it happens I thinks you will find that capitalism wasn't so bad after all.

Funny isn't it how we got from which dog food to choose to this? :lol:
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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:17 pm

We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, because guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.
I can not let this stand without comment because I can not imagine anything being more wrong. Where did the idea that profit and greed are the same thing? We are a capitalist country and the main ingredient to support it is profit. Without profit we don't survive and cease to exist. How does a company acquire the capital they need to survive if they can't sell shares to an investor? And what investor is going to buy and own shares of a failing company that doe not generate profits? I think we all know the answer to these questions and to generate those profits the company has to produce a product or service someone is willing to buy that will make their lives better in someway and they have to sell to those same people over and over to continue to make those profits. This requires that the products are good and perform that service so well that the customer will continue to buy it. This means that the customer not only is No. 1 priority but is the only priority since they are the people who provide the money so the company can pay bills, pay taxes, and continue to grow and hire more people.

Somehow I think some people have listened to our government use the term greedy to describe our common people who were willing to gamble their life savings to start a company that provides a product we want and are successful as greedy because they actually made some money. And then we have the growing class that thinks the government is here to take care of them by providing health care, welfare, unemployment benefits and all of the other government handouts instead of being personally responsible for themselves and their families.

Sorry I got on this soapbox but I didn't offer my life to protect this country and its way of life and see it trashed the way it is today. We have failed to teach our kids what the American way of life is all about and what led this country to reach the exceptionalism that we have achieved to see it all thrown away or redistributed. Lets all thank our lucky stars that people and companies do make a profit and spend a great deal of it researching and developing better products that continue to enhance and improve our lives. And that ain't greed. Greed belongs to the people who feel you owe them the profits you worked for that they were to lazy to work for themselves.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Dog food

Post by birddogger » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:20 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, because guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.
I can not let this stand without comment because I can not imagine anything being more wrong. Where did the idea that profit and greed are the same thing? We are a capitalist country and the main ingredient to support it is profit. Without profit we don't survive and cease to exist. How does a company acquire the capital they need to survive if they can't sell shares to an investor? And what investor is going to buy and own shares of a failing company that doe not generate profits? I think we all know the answer to these questions and to generate those profits the company has to produce a product or service someone is willing to buy that will make their lives better in someway and they have to sell to those same people over and over to continue to make those profits. This requires that the products are good and perform that service so well that the customer will continue to buy it. This means that the customer not only is No. 1 priority but is the only priority since they are the people who provide the money so the company can pay bills, pay taxes, and continue to grow and hire more people.

Somehow I think some people have listened to our government use the term greedy to describe our common people who were willing to gamble their life savings to start a company that provides a product we want and are successful as greedy because they actually made some money. And then we have the growing class that thinks the government is here to take care of them by providing health care, welfare, unemployment benefits and all of the other government handouts instead of being personally responsible for themselves and their families.

Sorry I got on this soapbox but I didn't offer my life to protect this country and its way of life and see it trashed the way it is today. We have failed to teach our kids what the American way of life is all about and what led this country to reach the exceptionalism that we have achieved to see it all thrown away or redistributed. Lets all thank our lucky stars that people and companies do make a profit and spend a great deal of it researching and developing better products that continue to enhance and improve our lives. And that ain't greed. Greed belongs to the people who feel you owe them the profits you worked for that they were to lazy to work for themselves.

Ezzy
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Re: Dog food

Post by ckirsch » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:14 pm

birddogger wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, because guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.
I can not let this stand without comment because I can not imagine anything being more wrong. Where did the idea that profit and greed are the same thing? We are a capitalist country and the main ingredient to support it is profit. Without profit we don't survive and cease to exist. How does a company acquire the capital they need to survive if they can't sell shares to an investor? And what investor is going to buy and own shares of a failing company that doe not generate profits? I think we all know the answer to these questions and to generate those profits the company has to produce a product or service someone is willing to buy that will make their lives better in someway and they have to sell to those same people over and over to continue to make those profits. This requires that the products are good and perform that service so well that the customer will continue to buy it. This means that the customer not only is No. 1 priority but is the only priority since they are the people who provide the money so the company can pay bills, pay taxes, and continue to grow and hire more people.

Somehow I think some people have listened to our government use the term greedy to describe our common people who were willing to gamble their life savings to start a company that provides a product we want and are successful as greedy because they actually made some money. And then we have the growing class that thinks the government is here to take care of them by providing health care, welfare, unemployment benefits and all of the other government handouts instead of being personally responsible for themselves and their families.

Sorry I got on this soapbox but I didn't offer my life to protect this country and its way of life and see it trashed the way it is today. We have failed to teach our kids what the American way of life is all about and what led this country to reach the exceptionalism that we have achieved to see it all thrown away or redistributed. Lets all thank our lucky stars that people and companies do make a profit and spend a great deal of it researching and developing better products that continue to enhance and improve our lives. And that ain't greed. Greed belongs to the people who feel you owe them the profits you worked for that they were to lazy to work for themselves.

Ezzy
AMEN!!!!!!!!

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Amen x 2! Very well-stated, Ezzy!

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Re: Dog food

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, because guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.
I can not let this stand without comment because I can not imagine anything being more wrong. Where did the idea that profit and greed are the same thing? We are a capitalist country and the main ingredient to support it is profit. Without profit we don't survive and cease to exist. How does a company acquire the capital they need to survive if they can't sell shares to an investor? And what investor is going to buy and own shares of a failing company that doe not generate profits? I think we all know the answer to these questions and to generate those profits the company has to produce a product or service someone is willing to buy that will make their lives better in someway and they have to sell to those same people over and over to continue to make those profits. This requires that the products are good and perform that service so well that the customer will continue to buy it. This means that the customer not only is No. 1 priority but is the only priority since they are the people who provide the money so the company can pay bills, pay taxes, and continue to grow and hire more people.

Somehow I think some people have listened to our government use the term greedy to describe our common people who were willing to gamble their life savings to start a company that provides a product we want and are successful as greedy because they actually made some money. And then we have the growing class that thinks the government is here to take care of them by providing health care, welfare, unemployment benefits and all of the other government handouts instead of being personally responsible for themselves and their families.

Sorry I got on this soapbox but I didn't offer my life to protect this country and its way of life and see it trashed the way it is today. We have failed to teach our kids what the American way of life is all about and what led this country to reach the exceptionalism that we have achieved to see it all thrown away or redistributed. Lets all thank our lucky stars that people and companies do make a profit and spend a great deal of it researching and developing better products that continue to enhance and improve our lives. And that ain't greed. Greed belongs to the people who feel you owe them the profits you worked for that they were to lazy to work for themselves.

Ezzy
All these dog food threads really are good for something. Excellent counter Ezzy.

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Re: Dog food

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:25 am

ezzy333 wrote:
We're a capitalist profit driven country in the US and right or wrong I can assure you that the consumer is not #1 priority. The FDA and FTC cater to whoever has the deepest pockets, because guess what, they create the most tax revenue. I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm merely a realist. Greed will override right and wrong nearly every time. It is what it is. Common sense is easy.
I can not let this stand without comment because I can not imagine anything being more wrong. Where did the idea that profit and greed are the same thing? We are a capitalist country and the main ingredient to support it is profit. Without profit we don't survive and cease to exist. How does a company acquire the capital they need to survive if they can't sell shares to an investor? And what investor is going to buy and own shares of a failing company that doe not generate profits? I think we all know the answer to these questions and to generate those profits the company has to produce a product or service someone is willing to buy that will make their lives better in someway and they have to sell to those same people over and over to continue to make those profits. This requires that the products are good and perform that service so well that the customer will continue to buy it. This means that the customer not only is No. 1 priority but is the only priority since they are the people who provide the money so the company can pay bills, pay taxes, and continue to grow and hire more people.

Somehow I think some people have listened to our government use the term greedy to describe our common people who were willing to gamble their life savings to start a company that provides a product we want and are successful as greedy because they actually made some money. And then we have the growing class that thinks the government is here to take care of them by providing health care, welfare, unemployment benefits and all of the other government handouts instead of being personally responsible for themselves and their families.

Sorry I got on this soapbox but I didn't offer my life to protect this country and its way of life and see it trashed the way it is today. We have failed to teach our kids what the American way of life is all about and what led this country to reach the exceptionalism that we have achieved to see it all thrown away or redistributed. Lets all thank our lucky stars that people and companies do make a profit and spend a great deal of it researching and developing better products that continue to enhance and improve our lives. And that ain't greed. Greed belongs to the people who feel you owe them the profits you worked for that they were to lazy to work for themselves.

Ezzy
I hate to see this evolve into a political discussion, but I too cannot allow this to pass. This is a great country and making a profit is not wrong. However, there are and continue to be companies that allege their profits go back into research to "help people" when we all know they are simply using that money to pay themselves big salaries/bonuses or finance huge advertising campaigns. A blatant example of this is the drug industry here in the US.

How many people can say we have not been bombarded by ads on TV, on the radio, in print, etc., etc., etc. by drug companies flogging their products? THIS is where their money goes, not back into research. Nor does it go to underwrite the actual costs of the product to the consumer so that we pay lower drug prices.

Drug prices in this country are the highest amongst all the developed countries. Simply because they are allowed to charge whatever the heck they feel like regardless of how it affects the people who need their medicines.

Getting off my soapbox now...
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Re: Dog food

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:59 am

Can't believe I just saw this.....
Ezzy- you wrote.....
The other feeds you mentioned I wouldn't even consider just on price alone. They are good feeds as far as I know but are priced way out of the market. Those feeds cater to people with a little lap dog that think it is a child and think the more they spend on the feed the better it is and they feel better about themselves. But the dog does just like he would on any other good feed.
I assume you are referring to Blue Buffalo and Orijen as the OP wrote in his first post. You know I feed Orijen and really like how my dogs do on it. Yes, it is expensive. But, honestly, the difference in spending $30 a bag vs. $50 a bag is just not a concern. I understand that a lot of people cannot afford the difference but I can, it is what I feed and it is a great food. You could look at my 12 yr old (large 85#) dog and would not believe she is that old. I attribute that to good care, exercise and good nutrition. I have seen old dogs fed Old Roy, Alpo, etc and they look geriatric at the age of 7. Coats are dull, greasy, skin flakes, eyes already have lenticular sclerosis, etc.

I don't knock anyone for what they feed. To each his own. If people ask what I feed, I will tell them but I never pick on anyone who feeds Old Roy, Purina, Diamond, Wellness, etc......Everyone makes their own choice based on experience and price.

So, please don't refer to people like me as having "little lap dog children". Yes, they are my kids but...they can run as hard as any other dog.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:09 am

So, please don't refer to people like me as having "little lap dog children". Yes, they are my kids but...they can run as hard as any other dog.
I'm sure they can but the point is they can not run harder even though your food is more expensive. The dogs run hard because of the nutritional value and not the monetary value of the feed they get.

I too am an advocate of letting people feed what they want and like. Just trying to tell you that when the dogs make the decision rather than the owners a lot of feeds might disappear. Let your dog tell you what is good and he will if you watch it.

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Re: Dog food

Post by mcbosco » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:14 am

"Just trying to tell you that when the dogs make the decision rather than the owners a lot of feeds might disappear"

Yeah the cheap kibbles with flavor enhancers. Do you honestly think a dog would eat kibble over green tripe, beef heart or chicken necks???

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Re: Dog food

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:18 am

Letting the dog choose is like letting a kid choose:-- Meal 1: grilled chicken, rice and veggies & fruit (nutritionally complete) OR Meal 2: McDonalds. Kids would pick meal 2 any day of the week b/c it tastes better BUT, it is not nutritionally complete.

Dogs aren't human, we have to choose for them. If I went that route-- my dogs would be choosing homemade food any day of the week. In fact, my old girl would eat Thai food every night and Max would eat Oatmeal Scotchies. :lol:

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:47 am

I hate to see this evolve into a political discussion, but I too cannot allow this to pass. This is a great country and making a profit is not wrong. However, there are and continue to be companies that allege their profits go back into research to "help people" when we all know they are simply using that money to pay themselves big salaries/bonuses or finance huge advertising campaigns. A blatant example of this is the drug industry here in the US.
So you are saying we should be able to set wages and tell the owners of a company that is making a product we use what they can do with the profits. Sounds like socialism to me.
How many people can say we have not been bombarded by ads on TV, on the radio, in print, etc., etc., etc. by drug companies flogging their products? THIS is where their money goes, not back into research. Nor does it go to underwrite the actual costs of the product to the consumer so that we pay lower drug prices.
And how many people have enjoyed free TV and radio and cheap newspapers because the advertisers are paying the bills And just maybe it is the results of those ads that allow more people to know the benefits of the product or even that there is such a product available.
Drug prices in this country are the highest amongst all the developed countries. Simply because they are allowed to charge whatever the heck they feel like regardless of how it affects the people who need their medicines.
Wages in this country are the highest amongst the developing countries. I think free markets have to allow free price setting even though many times it seems excessively high due to over regulation and high taxes and support the government agencies charged with enforcing the excessive regulations. But if they are charging excessive prices I am sure someone that know that will start a company and sells the product cheaper. That's exactly what is happening in the dog food world but when it does we still have people saying the over priced feeds are just so much better that I am going to continue to buy it. And the wonderful thing is we all have that right because we have resisted people who want to set the wages,paid people, prices charged for a product, and customers being able to tell companies how to run their business in any manner other that through the market place. Just believe that's the way it is supposed to work if we as a country are going to continue to lead the world in practically every humanitarian way known to man. There is a reason that people from all over the world come hereto this country for their healthcare when they need the best.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:58 am

jlp8cornell wrote:Letting the dog choose is like letting a kid choose:-- Meal 1: grilled chicken, rice and veggies & fruit (nutritionally complete) OR Meal 2: McDonalds. Kids would pick meal 2 any day of the week b/c it tastes better BUT, it is not nutritionally complete.

Dogs aren't human, we have to choose for them. If I went that route-- my dogs would be choosing homemade food any day of the week. In fact, my old girl would eat Thai food every night and Max would eat Oatmeal Scotchies. :lol:

You have a point if you think that letting the dog tell you is just letting it have what taste best at first but more than likely they would do like every animal has throughout history eat what they need. However, taste tests are not what I mean when I say let the dog tell you. Any good caretaker can read the condition of the animals and if they are looking fit, able to perform at a high level physically, and are able to be content in their environment should tell you the animal is eating well and getting the necessary nutrients. Taste tests do not necessarily fit into the scheme of how well the dog doing. What you describe is a case of feeding dog food and not a case of feeding your dog.

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Re: Dog food

Post by jlp8cornell » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:05 am

Well, here is the thing-- they will choose the cheap foods b/c as Mcbosco says, they have a fat/flavor enhancer sprayed on them. Chloe found some Old Roy as neighbor was feeding his catfish. She ate it like candy. But...I would never feed it. It's like how McD's inject their burgers with a flavor enhancer.
Now I am getting hungry.... :D

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:09 am

mcbosco wrote:"Just trying to tell you that when the dogs make the decision rather than the owners a lot of feeds might disappear"

Yeah the cheap kibbles with flavor enhancers. Do you honestly think a dog would eat kibble over green tripe, beef heart or chicken necks???
Nope but they will eat the kibble if that is what they need. Our dogs when on a full feed of meat will eat and then go to the crib and eat shelled corn or whole oats and will definitely stop to eat the horse manure, pigeon droppings or anything rotten they find when given a choice. Wild animals as well as most domesticated ones will balance their diet with out our help and the food they choose are seldom what you or I try to feed them. But again,it seems I need to say that good feed is not always based on what the dog likes just as good nutition is not either.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:14 am

jlp8cornell wrote:Well, here is the thing-- they will choose the cheap foods b/c as Mcbosco says, they have a fat/flavor enhancer sprayed on them. Chloe found some Old Roy as neighbor was feeding his catfish. She ate it like candy. But...I would never feed it. It's like how McD's inject their burgers with a flavor enhancer.
Now I am getting hungry.... :D
Sonds like they all are reading the same book you are when you put salt on your food as a flavor enhanser or you use garlic and spices to enhanse your food. Funny we critize a dog food company for the very same thing we do at home. Wonder why people pour gravy over their dogs food or evenwet it. Think maybe your dog was telling you something when it ate that OL Roy? I do!

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Re: Dog food

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:42 am

ezzy333 wrote:
I hate to see this evolve into a political discussion, but I too cannot allow this to pass. This is a great country and making a profit is not wrong. However, there are and continue to be companies that allege their profits go back into research to "help people" when we all know they are simply using that money to pay themselves big salaries/bonuses or finance huge advertising campaigns. A blatant example of this is the drug industry here in the US.
So you are saying we should be able to set wages and tell the owners of a company that is making a product we use what they can do with the profits. Sounds like socialism to me.
Ah yes... bringing up that "ugly word" socialism. That has nothing to do with the topic. I am pointing out that anyone who believes that these companies are in it purely to help people out is sadly mistaken. They are in it to make money. There is nothing wrong with making money. Everyone deserves to make a living. However, what is wrong is trying to make people believe that most of the huge profits that are being made by drug sales in this company are being funneled back into research. They're not!
How many people can say we have not been bombarded by ads on TV, on the radio, in print, etc., etc., etc. by drug companies flogging their products? THIS is where their money goes, not back into research. Nor does it go to underwrite the actual costs of the product to the consumer so that we pay lower drug prices.
And how many people have enjoyed free TV and radio and cheap newspapers because the advertisers are paying the bills And just maybe it is the results of those ads that allow more people to know the benefits of the product or even that there is such a product available.
Once again that has nothing to do with the statement I made about the drug companies. The drug companies put out hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising as well as pushing samples on physicians, sponsoring junkets, subsidizing drugstores, lobbyists, etc. This has nothing to do with the people who need the medicine getting it at a cost they can afford.
Drug prices in this country are the highest amongst all the developed countries. Simply because they are allowed to charge whatever the heck they feel like regardless of how it affects the people who need their medicines.
Wages in this country are the highest amongst the developing countries. I think free markets have to allow free price setting even though many times it seems excessively high due to over regulation and high taxes and support the government agencies charged with enforcing the excessive regulations. But if they are charging excessive prices I am sure someone that know that will start a company and sells the product cheaper. That's exactly what is happening in the dog food world but when it does we still have people saying the over priced feeds are just so much better that I am going to continue to buy it. And the wonderful thing is we all have that right because we have resisted people who want to set the wages,paid people, prices charged for a product, and customers being able to tell companies how to run their business in any manner other that through the market place. Just believe that's the way it is supposed to work if we as a country are going to continue to lead the world in practically every humanitarian way known to man. There is a reason that people from all over the world come hereto this country for their healthcare when they need the best.
Most expensive. Yes. Not necessarily the best.:
http://www.visualeconomics.com/healthca ... 010-03-01/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... orld-obama

But lets stay on topic with regard to drugs, not the entire health care system, otherwise it will really take off! ;)

Cost of medication in this country has nothing to do with "over regulation" and "high taxes" and everything to do with allowing drug companies to charge usurious prices simply because they can. Why do you think these companies fight so hard to have their patents extended? So that the drugs cannot go generic and thus be manufactured by someone else so that the marketplace will actually decide on the cost and not the drug company.

Pax,
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Re: Dog food

Post by MikeB » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:02 am

You can't fix stupid !

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Re: Dog food

Post by windswept » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:42 am

SubMariner wrote:Why do you think these companies fight so hard to have their patents extended? So that the drugs cannot go generic and thus be manufactured by someone else so that the marketplace will actually decide on the cost and not the drug company.
They are "fighting so hard to have their patents extended" so that they are properly compensated for their extensive research and development costs associated with developing these drugs. I for one am very thankful for these "greedy" pharmaceutical companies.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ckirsch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:13 pm

SubMariner wrote: Why do you think these companies fight so hard to have their patents extended? So that the drugs cannot go generic and thus be manufactured by someone else so that the marketplace will actually decide on the cost and not the drug company.

Pax,
So let me get this straight. Let's say you are the GM of a pharm company, had invested your hard-earned capital and convinced other shareholders to do the same. For several years, your company pays highly-educated staff members very significant amounts of money (along with expensive benefits, FICA, unemployment insurance, etc.) to design effective drugs. If after five or ten years of borrowing money to meet payroll/maintain liability insurance coverage/cover utility bills/pay rent and keep your doors open, you are fortunate enough to discover a new drug that would improve the quality of people's lives while finally rewarding your investors at the same time, would you not want your work to protected by a patent? Would you immediately allow your competitors to produce the same product?

I'm honestly not trying to be a wise-arse, but are you compensated for the work that you currently do, or do you contribute for free? Just trying to understand the philosophy that profit is somehow evil, and the drug companies should not be concerned with it. I find myself wondering how many of today's drugs would have ever been discovered / developed were it not for the motive of profit. Like it or not, it's what makes the world go round. Remove the profit, and you remove the incentive.

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Re: Dog food

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:46 pm

windswept wrote:
SubMariner wrote:Why do you think these companies fight so hard to have their patents extended? So that the drugs cannot go generic and thus be manufactured by someone else so that the marketplace will actually decide on the cost and not the drug company.
They are "fighting so hard to have their patents extended" so that they are properly compensated for their extensive research and development costs associated with developing these drugs. I for one am very thankful for these "greedy" pharmaceutical companies.
There is nothing wrong with patenting a unique product and expecting to reap the rewards of your hard earned blood, sweat, tears, and $$.

However, when you try to extend the patent by making an infinitesimal change in the formula that merely substitutes one chemical compound for another (each of which performs exactly the same function, BTW) or a very small tweak in the formula then changing the name of the product so it's now XXX as opposed to XXY... that's is indeed greedy.

Just like the "only by prescription" label. That's money in the bank for them!
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Re: Dog food

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:59 pm

ckirsch wrote:
SubMariner wrote: Why do you think these companies fight so hard to have their patents extended? So that the drugs cannot go generic and thus be manufactured by someone else so that the marketplace will actually decide on the cost and not the drug company.

Pax,
So let me get this straight. Let's say you are the GM of a pharm company, had invested your hard-earned capital and convinced other shareholders to do the same. For several years, your company pays highly-educated staff members very significant amounts of money (along with expensive benefits, FICA, unemployment insurance, etc.) to design effective drugs. If after five or ten years of borrowing money to meet payroll/maintain liability insurance coverage/cover utility bills/pay rent and keep your doors open, you are fortunate enough to discover a new drug that would improve the quality of people's lives while finally rewarding your investors at the same time, would you not want your work to protected by a patent? Would you immediately allow your competitors to produce the same product?

I'm honestly not trying to be a wise-arse, but are you compensated for the work that you currently do, or do you contribute for free? Just trying to understand the philosophy that profit is somehow evil, and the drug companies should not be concerned with it. I find myself wondering how many of today's drugs would have ever been discovered / developed were it not for the motive of profit. Like it or not, it's what makes the world go round. Remove the profit, and you remove the incentive.
Again, I never said that "profit is somehow evil". If you work hard & develop a truly unique product, you should be able to recoup your expenses & make money. That's what this country is all about! But don't expect us to believe that all that money for advertising, freebies, compensations, and lobbyists is actually going into R&D to make the the cure for cancer. Nope. It's all about pushing the next little blue male enhancement pill because THAT'S where the money is. ;)
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Re: Dog food

Post by windswept » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:00 pm

SubMariner wrote:
windswept wrote:
SubMariner wrote:Why do you think these companies fight so hard to have their patents extended? So that the drugs cannot go generic and thus be manufactured by someone else so that the marketplace will actually decide on the cost and not the drug company.
They are "fighting so hard to have their patents extended" so that they are properly compensated for their extensive research and development costs associated with developing these drugs. I for one am very thankful for these "greedy" pharmaceutical companies.
There is nothing wrong with patenting a unique product and expecting to reap the rewards of your hard earned blood, sweat, tears, and $$.

However, when you try to extend the patent by making an infinitesimal change in the formula that merely substitutes one chemical compound for another (each of which performs exactly the same function, BTW) or a very small tweak in the formula then changing the name of the product so it's now XXX as opposed to XXY... that's is indeed greedy.

Just like the "only by prescription" label. That's money in the bank for them!
Not sure if it really works the way you've described but assuming it does than the new patent would be for XXX and XXY's patent would expire and the generics would then hit the market. We would then have XXX at $80 a bottle and XXY at $8 a bottle. What's the problem?
I would love to continue this discussion but in the interest of keeping things on track I'm taking a back seat.
P.S. Next time you or a loved one are sick and in need of a perscription I doubt you will just wait for the generics.

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Re: Dog food

Post by mcbosco » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:01 pm

Having had first hand experience with a few small biotechs, there is no way to adequately describe on here why drugs cost so much. It is partly policy, red-tape, the capital markets, foreign governments with price controls, our health habits and developmental risk.

The best thing we can all do is lose weight and cut out red meat and simple carbs from our diets. If health care costs are controlled at the individual level it will spread to the macro level.

Diabetes is the biggest threat to health care costs now because it is starting so much younger. This trend will determine drug costs for the next 25 years at least.

It could very well be the end of life in the US as we know it.

I actually would support a big tax on sugar & corn syrup in order to get the stuff out of the diet.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ckirsch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:41 pm

But don't expect us to believe that all that money for advertising, freebies, compensations, and lobbyists is actually going into R&D to make the the cure for cancer. Nope. It's all about pushing the next little blue male enhancement pill because THAT'S where the money is. ;)[/quote]

Is that the fault of the drug companies? If there were no demand for those blue pills, there would be no reason for anyone to product them. That is an indictment of our society in general, rather than the drug companies. I suspect that at least a portion of profits from one drug category goes to R&D in another.

We really don't need potato chips, Snickers, or Diet Coke, either, but companies are producint them due to the demand. Not sure they can be faulted for it. They are providing jobs in the process. We can't all be Nobel Prize winners....

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:07 pm

mcbosco wrote:Having had first hand experience with a few small biotechs, there is no way to adequately describe on here why drugs cost so much. It is partly policy, red-tape, the capital markets, foreign governments with price controls, our health habits and developmental risk.

The best thing we can all do is lose weight and cut out red meat and simple carbs from our diets. If health care costs are controlled at the individual level it will spread to the macro level.

Diabetes is the biggest threat to health care costs now because it is starting so much younger. This trend will determine drug costs for the next 25 years at least.

It could very well be the end of life in the US as we know it.

I actually would support a big tax on sugar & corn syrup in order to get the stuff out of the diet.

Some good points. Some not so good. But I say lets appoint Sal as health care czar and let him decide what we eat and how much. I am sure he will get the stoves out of the household as we all know cooking helps people overeat, sugar and corn syrup out of our diets even though it has been proven diet does not cause diabetes, and maybe do away with the super markets that make gathering foodstuffs too easy, and get the food and beverages out of the schools and do away with the free lunch program. Seems like there might be no end to the things the government could do to tell us common folk what to eat and how much since they have decided to take away all of the areas that used to be considered personal responsibility. Oh but I forgot, the government doesn't want to take them way but they want to tax them to raise more money. And hard to believe anyone would fall for that but some still do. Wonder why someone would choose not eat meat since we know the people who do are healthier and even stranger to me why anyone would want to tell me what I can and can not eat. Does anyone else wonder about that? Same with dog food, I am not going to tell someone else what to feed their dog, my responsibility ends when I provide accurate information so that each one of them can make a good decision if they want.
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Re: Dog food

Post by mcbosco » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:18 pm

I am starting the crusade in Dixon. All that corn will soon be Quinoa, :wink:

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:21 pm

mcbosco wrote:I am starting the crusade in Dixon. All that corn will soon be Quinoa, :wink:
Don't get rid of it, just add more taxes to it. It's the liberal way.

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Re: Dog food

Post by birddogger » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:49 pm

For those who think all big companies are evil, wait until the government controls everything, and Obama would like nothing better.

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Re: Dog food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:11 pm

birddogger wrote:For those who think all big companies are evil, wait until the government controls everything, and Obama would like nothing better.

Charlie
Most will learn as they get older and some never will. Just so hard to sit back and say nothing when you see or hear some of the ideas that get passed around because there will be a time when it is too late when someone finds out the facts .

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