Gun Dog Forum

Hi All,

I am getting a new German Shorthair Pointer pup in a few weeks and need to make a decision on a dog food to feed the little guy. I would use what the breeder is using, but the food is not available to me in this area. Also, I know that a lot of this food issue is just getting something that will work with my particular dog. However, I would like to at least be starting with foods that are known to be high quality.

Consequently, what is everyone's opinion on the dog food websites (some examples are shown below)? Do these websites provide legitimate unbiased information, or are they just fronts for cetain dog food companies?

http://dogfoodchat.com/
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/

TIA

--shinbone

Well, neither because they just read labels and make assumptions on things like corn, beet pulp and whether "fish meal" is naturally preserved or not. Out of dumb luck, though, some of the recommendations are accurate.

What food can't you get?

If your going to feed kibble and you don't mind paying just a bit more, you really can't go wrong with Canidae. Its a very good deal, its 100% guaranteed and its easy to get. You will find that with the 44lb size, its high calorie count and frequent buyer program its only marginally more expensive than much of the inferior stuff out there. It is one of the original super premiums and still independent. Both regular ALS & Grain Free ALS are fine kibbles. There are others but Canidae is available everywhere.

mcbosco wrote:Well, neither because they just read labels and make assumptions on things like corn, beet pulp and whether "fish meal" is naturally preserved or not. Out of dumb luck, though, some of the recommendations are accurate.

What food can't you get?

If your going to feed kibble and you don't mind paying just a bit more, you really can't go wrong with Canidae. Its a very good deal, its 100% guaranteed and its easy to get. You will find that with the 44lb size, its high calorie count and frequent buyer program its only marginally more expensive than much of the inferior stuff out there. It is one of the original super premiums and still independent.

By independent you mean a different group of people own it than some other company. And you are doing just exactly what you advise against and making decisions on what feed is good and which isn't with little to no knowledge of the products. Plus cost is different in different parts of the country as well as availability. Canidae is a pretty good feed from what I have heard but over priced. Personally I know little about it as it isn't available in the area and have not seen it or know of any dogs that are being fed on it. And there really isn't much question about the value of corn, beet pulp, or any fish meal from the people who have studied nutrition. Truth is there is small differences in dog food but not near as much as people think. 99% of the differences are price and marketing literature. And the only important information you will receive is the condition of your dog. Most feeds work very well for most dogs with only very rare exceptions. If the dogs had the power to choose instead of the owners there would be far far less problems than we hear about on a forum where we get owners opinions instead of feeding results.


Pick a feed that you can afford and is readily available and you will probably have a food that your dog does well on and then stick with it.

Ezzy

mcbosco - Thanks for the info. The name of the food is PROFormance. It is made in Mississippi, but for some reason is not available in anything less than full-size-pallet quantities. The breeder will provide me with enough to transistion the dog to whatever his new food will be.

--shinbone

Ezzy - Sounds like good advice. Thanks.

--shinbone

FWIW, I talked to a professional guide who feeds his dogs Canidae. He said his dogs do well on it but there is alot of clean up and the stools are very soft, making it harder to clean up. He said he is happy with it inspite of the stools.

Charlie

Charlie,
Next time you speak to your Porfessional guide friend tell him to cut back on the food and I bet the stools will firm up. It doesn't take as much Canidae to get the job done.

There are many good feeds. Google up Loyall products by Nutrena. My young Setter looks great on it. Top level feed, but not as expensive as some.

MikeB wrote:Charlie,
Next time you speak to your Porfessional guide friend tell him to cut back on the food and I bet the stools will firm up. It doesn't take as much Canidae to get the job done.

I will probably never see him again. I only met him one time, but you are probably right.

Charlie

MikeB wrote:Charlie,
Next time you speak to your Porfessional guide friend tell him to cut back on the food and I bet the stools will firm up. It doesn't take as much Canidae to get the job done.

You can't overfeed a food like Canidae because it doesn't contain many ingredients to form that perfect poop.

As for cost, it works out to about 70 cents a lb in NJ at the register but it contains quite a few calories so comparatively its about 55 cents lb.

Pretty reasonable, plus what other food has 100% money back GTY.

Shinbone,

Tell us what foods are readily available in your area and within your budget. I'm sure someone on here will have some experience with those foods and can offer an opinion.

mcbosco wrote:
Pretty reasonable, plus what other food has 100% money back GTY.

We sell Nutram brand feeds here and they have a money back GTY. They just don't try to use it as leverage to sell dog food.

The premium foods I am considering and have access to are:

Orijen
Horizon Legacy
Artemis
Blue Buffalo
Instinct
Innova

I was just going to use an adult or all-life-stages food, and skip any puppy food.

I also have access to a Costco and their Kirkland food. My plan was to feed one of the above mentioned foods while the dog is a growing pup, and then switch to the cheaper but still good Kirkland food once he is grown.

--shinbone

I've feed Blue Buffalo & really liked it for my dogs but it kept my cats much too heavy. (even their lite formula)

I'm currently feeding Innova to my 14 week old Brittany pup & I like it a lot.

I've heard good things about Orijen as well.

Of the ones you mentioned, the only one I have tried was Innova. Good food, very pricey. But didn't find it better than anything else I tried. It seems that Orijen is a very popular high end premium food, although many who use it for their adults, won't feed it to a growing large breed puppy.

I would say if you're going to eventually go with Kirkland, then go ahead now. I've never fed it, but it seems to be a popular, convenient, affordable food.

nanney1 wrote:Of the ones you mentioned, the only one I have tried was Innova. Good food, very pricey. But didn't find it better than anything else I tried. It seems that Orijen is a very popular high end premium food, although many who use it for their adults, won't feed it to a growing large breed puppy.

I would say if you're going to eventually go with Kirkland, then go ahead now. I've never fed it, but it seems to be a popular, convenient, affordable food.

Couldn't agree more. And it gets away from another food change in the future. Think you will find the Kirkland will work for the dog just as good as any of the others and will be a lot easier on your check book. There are a lot of companies that take advantage of the fact that there are many people who feel better when they spend a lot of money on their pets and they equate high price with better quality. Just another marketing strategy.

Ezzy

I feed Orijen and it is a wonderful food. Innova is almost the same price. I would not feed a grain free until the dog is 1yr old so if going with Innova....stick with the adult not Evo. My 2 cents.

Why avoid grain-free while a puppy? Is the grain-free just too rich?

--shinbone

birddogger wrote:FWIW, I talked to a professional guide who feeds his dogs Canidae. He said his dogs do well on it but there is alot of clean up and the stools are very soft, making it harder to clean up. He said he is happy with it inspite of the stools.

I've tried two 44 lb bags of Canidae recently since Exceed changed. I haven't had any trouble with cleanup; in fact, it seems to be a plus of the feed. I do feed them a measured amount and keep them lean.

What I have noticed is that coats are a bit dryer. Cleared it up by adding a tablespoon of canola oil (that's just what we have in the pantry) to the feed.

Even though I don't like the price, I'll stay with it awhile because it's readily available. With the kids' lacrosse schedules beating me up, I don't have time to spend an extra hour for a special trip somewhere.

Greg Jennings wrote:

birddogger wrote:FWIW, I talked to a professional guide who feeds his dogs Canidae. He said his dogs do well on it but there is alot of clean up and the stools are very soft, making it harder to clean up. He said he is happy with it inspite of the stools.

I've tried two 44 lb bags of Canidae recently since Exceed changed. I haven't had any trouble with cleanup; in fact, it seems to be a plus of the feed. I do feed them a measured amount and keep them lean.

What I have noticed is that coats are a bit dryer. Cleared it up by adding a tablespoon of canola oil (that's just what we have in the pantry) to the feed.

Even though I don't like the price, I'll stay with it awhile because it's readily available. With the kids' lacrosse schedules beating me up, I don't have time to spend an extra hour for a special trip somewhere.

Now this is what I mean when I say let your dog tell you what is a good feed and how much to feed. If you don't over feed most dog will have a decent stool and when you see a minor problem usually you can solve it with a common sense approach.

All of the marketing hype or the high cost feeds will provide better for your dog than being observent and making common sense adjustments if or when a minor problem shows up.

Good post Greg.

Ezzy

We're big on EVO Turkey Chicken Large Bites. Our dog was getting twice as much Exceed (4 cups) and was waaaay to skinny. Plus there was plenty of "waste product".

He's getting about 1/2 as much EVO (2 1/4 cups) with a shiner coat, more muscle, and far less waste.

Do your homework & decide for yourself. More expensive initial cost at the checkout doesn't always translate to more expensive to feed.

Take care,

shinbone wrote:Why avoid grain-free while a puppy? Is the grain-free just too rich?

--shinbone

I tried Orijen large breed puppy. I transitioned my then-16 week pup over 10 days, and during the transition his stools got softer and softer. I thought it was just adjusting to the new food.

The day I went entirely to Orijen he ended up with explosive diarrhea at 3am. That was enough for me. I don't know if it was too rich, but it didn't sit well with him.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that solid stools tell the whole story. If you feed a dog a really poor food with a bunch of undigestible solids you'll get solid stools, but the stools are solid because of the junk in the food not the good stuff.

shinbone wrote:Why avoid grain-free while a puppy? Is the grain-free just too rich?

--shinbone

Some of the grain free foods are higher in calcium than what is recommended for a growing, large breed pup.

nanney1 - Thanks!

I guess I need to beef up my knowledge of puppy food - can anyone give me the recommend percentages of protein, fat, calcium, etc. for good puppy food?

TIA.

--shinbone

I fed Wellness puppy until 6 months, then switched to Wellness adult. (both similar to Innova adult and puppy). After one yr I switched to Orijen. Evo and Core are great no grains as well. My concern was Ca/Ph levels as well as not over feeding (in terms of too high protein/fat/etc). Grow them slow! Of your list, I would feed regular Innova(not Evo until older)- adult will work for all stages.

sorry to hijack, but what is the average cost of Canidae als for you all that are feeding it.

I have a local place that sells 44 lbs for $52 and not sure but that seems high to me, next closest place to buy it is about an hr and 15 min drive for me.

shinbone wrote:nanney1 - Thanks!

I guess I need to beef up my knowledge of puppy food - can anyone give me the recommend percentages of protein, fat, calcium, etc. for good puppy food?

TIA.

--shinbone

I don't know that anyone is in complete agreement on recommended percentages of Protein/fat. I think the minimum for puppy growth would be 22% on a dry matter basis. And 18% is too low. 28% would probably be optimum. Some of this is opinion, some of it published in studies that I'm sort of remembering off the top of my head.

With large breed puppies, 3.3% calcium was found to be too high and led to problems with Great Dane pups. 1.2% calcium worked well, so most large breed puppy foods and many adult formulas will be in the ball park of 1.1 - 1.3% calcium and around 1.0% phosphorus. You want a slightly higher amount of Calcium to Phosphorus.

The exact percentage is not real important as it is how much the pup eats that determines how much they get. You will find all of the feeds on the market will provide the necessary amount if your pup is eating a normal amount of feed. There is a difference in feeds formulated for the large breeds as they do better with a less calcium than they would consume with a regular feed. Think all you need to worry about is the amount you feed as it is somewhat common to overfeed. You do not want a puppy heavy or growing real fast as both are hard on the joints while they are young and growing.

If a feed is labeled as a puppy food it is formulated by law to provide all of the nutrients the pup needs for good growth. Many of us do not feed puppy food at all as it tends to allow puppies to get too heavy while young. But in all honesty, worrying about which feed is better is pretty much a waste of time as they all work and work well.

Ezzy

nanney1 - Thanks. Those numbers give me a good starting palce.

--shinbone

Another related question - my GSP is expected to weigh close to 70 lbs when full grown and in good shape. Is this full-grown size large enough that I should be considering large breed foods?

I have noticed that a lot of the grain-free puppy foods have larger than 30% protein amounts. Is this too much protein for a puppy?

--shinbone

I would consider a GSP to be squarely a medium-sized dog.

I had 1 large male dog in my life that when fed high protein puppy food, at 8 months old had Pano for months until I researched and found a breeder that told me to reduce the protein / fat and feed an adult food and in a week the Pano went away. He never had any more problems. I have known other large males and females with Pano that were eating puppy food and when switched to lower P/F were fine. This was long before the Large breed food craze. Simply feeding a high quality adult food works best in most cases. Yes I know many large breed dogs can eat 30/20 performance food and have no problems. That is because all dog are not a like. That is why I like the Canidae All Life Stage 24/14 so well. It just works for most dogs very well.

You can't overfeed a food like Canidae because it doesn't contain many ingredients to form that perfect poop.

That is pretty much what the guy told me. He said that is what he was told by a company representative.

Charlie

mcbosco - Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure where the dividing line between large and medium breed is.

And, I appreciate everyone's input on this thread. This dog food stuff is steep learning curve and everyone's input is helpful.

If my puppy is not a large breed, then can I feed it any high quality dog food and not worry about it growing too fast? Or, do I stil have to worry about too much protein and too much calcium, again, assuming a high quality dog food?

--shinbone

I would worry more about calcium and the ratio of calcium/phosphorous. I know the internet is littered with stuff about dogs growing faster on certain high protein foods but the reality is the risk is the pup being overweight not growing too fast. The studies that are referenced dealt with a very small sample of Great Danes, which are a troubled breed anyway. There are also similarly small studies that show lower rates of dysplasia on diets high in animal protein.

A pup on Orijen will grow no faster than a pup on Canidae, or any other regular kibble. Pano, for example, can hit all dogs no matter what they eat.

Best advise is keep the pup in good to slender weight especially when the growth spurt really occurs and avoid injuries when they are young.

shinbone wrote:mcbosco - Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure where the dividing line between large and medium breed is.

And, I appreciate everyone's input on this thread. This dog food stuff is steep learning curve and everyone's input is helpful.

If my puppy is not a large breed, then can I feed it any high quality dog food and not worry about it growing too fast? Or, do I stil have to worry about too much protein and too much calcium, again, assuming a high quality dog food?

--shinbone

There are ten thousand things you need to worry about more than what to feed a puppy. Most any dog food will provide the nutrition that your pup needs, even a large breed. But we do know that fast growth can be a problem particularly with the giant breeds so the manufactures have provided a feed that helps slow that down. The same problem can develop in smaller breeds if they are over fed but is not near as likely.

The nice thing about having a professionally formulated and manufactured feed to use is they did the worrying for you and have a great product on the shelves that provide the correct amount of each nutrient that your puppy needs as long as you watch your pup and feed the amount it needs to stay in condition. Feeding a dog is just that simple and 99% of all this banter about what percent a dog needs or which dog food is better is something for the owners to argue about while the pup is doing fine. There would be little discussion about dog food if the dogs could decide what they need like the wild animals do, but for some reason owners have decided they know more than the animals or the professional people who have studied nutrition. Just doesn't make a lot of sense but it is the way it is.

Ezzy

jbo wrote:sorry to hijack, but what is the average cost of Canidae als for you all that are feeding it.

I have a local place that sells 44 lbs for $52 and not sure but that seems high to me, next closest place to buy it is about an hr and 15 min drive for me.

Regular is $49/44 lbs here. They run sales every so often, but I can't rely on that sort of thing.

Like I said, I don't like the price, but in the big scheme of things, it's working right now. After lacrosse is over and I have more time, I might change.

Slow week this week: only 4 games.

$37.99 for 44lbs of Canidae in NJ, 6th bag free. It was $39.99 for the longest time.

Just perusing orijen info and found this paper. I know it is there literature so take it for what its worth. But interesting info nonetheless

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf


Jerry

You might find this dog food project website interesting.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main

Gurgle wrote:You might find this dog food project website interesting.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main

We have been down this road a few times before. In an ideal world, there may be some merit to their "report," but mainly it is a biased report designed to sell expensive dog feed. I believe in high quality dog feed, but I also believe in common sense and honesty.

big steve46 wrote:

Gurgle wrote:You might find this dog food project website interesting.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main

We have been down this road a few times before. In an ideal world, there may be some merit to their "report," but mainly it is a biased report designed to sell expensive dog feed. I believe in high quality dog feed, but I also believe in common sense and honesty.

Did you actually go take a look at this site? It does not rank dog food and makes no suggestions as to what anyone should feed. There is no "report" at this site. This site educates on how to read labels, what names for some items really mean and stresses over and over that the best food for your dog is the food that works for your dog.

I read it and agree with Steve that it is some one's opinion more than fact. Example is they call Chicken By-Product Meal a poor ingredient when compared to Chicken Meal while in actuality it provides more nutrient to your dog than any other chicken product. Much of what they say is based on fact but from a bias position so their examples would lead you to an opinion and not the actual facts. They even use examples of ingredients that I don't think exist and if they do I know of no one that uses them.

Like all Internet information it is only as good as the writer wants it to be and no one knows just who the writer is quite often and sure don't know where they are coming from.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:I read it and agree with Steve that it is some one's opinion more than fact. Example is they call Chicken By-Product Meal a poor ingredient when compared to Chicken Meal while in actuality it provides more nutrient to your dog than any other chicken product. Much of what they say is based on fact but from a bias position so their examples would lead you to an opinion and not the actual facts.

You are being too kind to say that much of what they say is based in fact. Most of what I read on that site is based on distortion of the facts. A prime example being the one you used. Their analysis would be more in line if they were to label it "Which ingredient sounds icky?"

Gurgle wrote:[Did you actually go take a look at this site? It does not rank dog food and makes no suggestions as to what anyone should feed. There is no "report" at this site. This site educates on how to read labels, what names for some items really mean and stresses over and over that the best food for your dog is the food that works for your dog.

I have previously looked at the site in detail. Perhaps my use of the term "report" was not the best description. Much of the information they present is inaccurate and misleading IMHO. Neither am I gullible enough to believe everything the commercial producers claim about their feeds. Heck, I don't always agree with Ezzy!

The best of the sites is www.dogaware.com

It has the most useful info, doesn't pick brands and is sponsored by a person with credentials.

mcbosco wrote:The best of the sites is http://www.dogaware.com

It has the most useful info, doesn't pick brands and is sponsored by a person with credentials.

It is a slight improvement over the other site. I have no problems with feeding some raw foods or supplements. Human food normally needs supplemented more than animal food because nutrients are retained betteer in animal food.

Still, the criteria for commercial foods on this site can easily be disputed. Certainly, the site is indirectly promoting expensive or raw foods. I dont want to go to the expense and trouble of either. More power to the ones that do. Again, most dogs do well on most good commercial foods.

Mary Straus wrote:I do not claim to have all the answers, but I can offer my own understanding of various topics, as well as providing links to web sites that I recommend for learning more yourself. I make an effort to keep my web site updated every time I learn something new, or change my opinion on a subject, or receive feedback that indicates I need to add clarification or additional information to what I have written. I have no formal training in any veterinary or medical field, but I do believe that the education I have recived thru my own efforts, which includes reading veterinary textbooks and conference proceedings, exceeds what I would have been able to learn from accredited courses (most of which are designed and taught by dog food companies). Although I believe strongly that you must rely on your vet when it comes to diagnosing and treating health problems, I have also been successful in at least a half dozen situations in diagnosing a dog with a life threatening illness when one or more vets were unable to do so, including dogs that had leptospirosis, masticatory myositis, calcinosis circumscripta and hypoadrenocorticism (fortunately, in most cases, the dogs were able to be saved).

I think Steve pretty well nailed it. The "person with credentials" is Mary Straus who has no training or formal education in the field. She says she read veterinary textbooks and was able to learn more than the vets that used the same books in school. It also bothers me when some one asks for donations from the readers and in her case she asks on the front page and not at the end after you have read the material. And she herself says she writes her opinion, not my idea of a reliable research report.

I think she does a better job of trying to be fair but it is hard to let go of personal opinion when that is what she is using as her base instead of hard cold facts.

I'll go back to what I advise and that is let your dog do the talking. Happy healthy dogs say a lot more than any one else's opinion does. And leave the nutritional requirements and the formulations that cover them to the nutritionist that have been educated in the field and we can spend our time training and enjoying our dogs. That way we are all are working in the field that we know the most about.

Ezzy

Both my lab and english setter are on Diamond Performance. I used to be a huge fan of Canidae before I got my english setter. My lab did great and price wise it was reasonable. However once the formula was changed I was forced to change as well. My lab started to itch a lot to the point of scratching off her fur around her eyes and snout. I went back to Pro Plan for a while which both dogs also do well on, but the stuff is pricey especially the Performance formula. After seeing how well my parents brittanies were doing on Diamond Performance I decided to try.

I've tried several different foods for my english setter. The two foods she does best on are Pro Plan (best on the Performance formula) and Diamond Performance. She does OK on Diamnond Naturals, but she doesn't have the energy like she does on the Performance formula. With most of the other foods including, Innova, Taste of the Wild, and Nutrisource to name a few she had runny stools and just didn't have the "giddy-up". I did try a large bag of Loyall Puppy food that we won at her first trial and she did well on that, but for the price I can't beat Diamond Performance right now.

The part I get a kick out of is when I look at that dog food analysis website my dogs do better on 1 star foods than they dog on the 5 and 6 star foods.