Native dog food

[Bossman27]

Anyone feed their dogs native? From what I've read it is one of the better foods for working dogs, however, I know better than to trust what I read!

[Greg Jennings]

During the Exceed Interregnum of 2009, I fed it. Several others here feed it. No complaints as far as I can tell. I fed Level 2 normally, then Level 4 when hunting all day, every day in ND. I was very happy with it. If it was the same cost as and as readily available as, Exceed, I would be feeding it.

[windswept]

I recently switched the whole crew to Native and so far so good. My youngest is an 8 week old GSP and the old man is a 12 year old Golden Retriever. I am feeding slightly less than I was before (Eukanuba) and the dogs are doing quite well on it. I am feeding level 3. I should probably consider switching to level 2 (other than the pups) now that the season is over. Not to hijak the thread but do you all switch to a lower protein formula durring the lower activity periods? In the Eukanuba days I just fed the performance level stuff year round.

[1vizsla]

We've been feeding it for two years and still love it. Dyson does well and the price is ok. I recommend it to everyone who is looking for a new food especially ones that have trouble keeping weight on their dog.

Carla

[Will]

Been feeding Level 3 for a year with great results. 3yr old male on 3 cups per day with moderate activity...4 cups during hunting season keeps him very well. 9mo old puppy been on Level 3 since weaned and does great on it also. He is up to about 3 cups a day during hunting season. Good food for us...feed small amounts...clean small amounts up too!!

[fordman]

I used it for 5 months last year 2 dogs lost weight and I got lots of waste, level 3 was fed and it is not that cheap compared to other brands.

[Chaingang]

I have been feeding it for over a year. Good results.

[Chaingang]

I should probably consider switching to level 2 (other than the pups) now that the season is over. Not to hijak the thread but do you all switch to a lower protein formula durring the lower activity periods? In the Eukanuba days I just fed the performance level stuff year round.

Really depends on the dog. In my case I have a 3 year old male GSP who is a hard keeper weight wise and he stays on Level 3 year round. I've even gone to Level 4 if he is doing alot of training or hunting during extended trips. You could always just cut back some if he is gaining too much weight.

[Will]

I should probably consider switching to level 2 (other than the pups) now that the season is over. Not to hijak the thread but do you all switch to a lower protein formula durring the lower activity periods? In the Eukanuba days I just fed the performance level stuff year round.

Really depends on the dog. In my case I have a 3 year old male GSP who is a hard keeper weight wise and he stays on Level 3 year round. I've even gone to Level 4 if he is doing alot of training or hunting during extended trips. You could always just cut back some if he is gaining too much weight.

Well said Tom. It ALL depends on your dog. My 3yr old is a hard keeper also, but Level 4 is too hot for him. He gets loose and can't handle it. A little extra during heavy conditioning and/or hunting and he does well. Puppy is still growing, so hard to say where he will end up when he's old enough for conditioning other than normal hunting. Right now he keeps really easy on Level 3.

[mcbosco]

couple of nice Spinoni on the Native website, so thumbs up!!

[Hunter]

I have tried it with not much luck, I have shorthairs and they lost weight on it and had very loose stools. It does depend on the dog as others have said it works great for them. My take is it is for more laid back dogs and dogs that are very high strung like my shorthairs didnt look good on it. I have since switched to black gold dog food and have had excellent results and very little stools to clean up. My advice is feed what makes YOUR dog look and feel good and dont pay much attn to adds or sponsors to certain food.

[birddogger]

I have tried it with not much luck, I have shorthairs and they lost weight on it and had very loose stools. It does depend on the dog as others have said it works great for them. My take is it is for more laid back dogs and dogs that are very high strung like my shorthairs didnt look good on it. I have since switched to black gold dog food and have had excellent results and very little stools to clean up. My advice is feed what makes YOUR dog look and feel good and dont pay much attn to adds or sponsors to certain food.

Very well said.

Charlie

[bsaw001]

Can you give me more explanation about native dog food? As I am not familiar with it and I'm planning to adopt a dog soon.

[Chaingang]

Can you give me more explanation about native dog food? As I am not familiar with it and I'm planning to adopt a dog soon.
Dentist Norwalk | Dentist Norwalk

http://www.nativedogfood.com/

[bfd_dan]

I switched from Pro Plan Performance to Native about a year ago. I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old. My dogs train very hard during the spring and summer and are hunted into the winter. (My male is a NAVHDA VC and almost done with MH)

I recommend level 3!!!

[SFK]

My take is it is for more laid back dogs and dogs that are very high strung like my shorthairs didnt look good on it.

Would disagree on this one. Don't think my shorthairs are what you'd call laid back but I could be wrong.

My adult dogs do very well on it and are worked very hard. I feed a mix of 3 and 4 depending on how hard the dogs are being worked. Vary from 3:0 to 1:3 ratio lvl3 to lvl4. With the 1:3 ratio being used in the prime of hunting and trial seasons where they if they aren't runnin they are roadin.

Have fed most major brands and some of the others. Seems the level 4 at the same price as level 3 justifies the cost for me (32 a bag). The extra fat in the lvl4 seems to help keep the weight on my dogs when I really start workin them and they seem to be able to work longer. I would be feed 6 cups of the other brands and the dogs would still be skinny - just 2-3 of the native, even in hard work. But as said before this is just what works for my dogs...

[1vizsla]

Yeah, I wouldn't call Dyson a "Laid Back Dog" by any stretch of the imagination. We have suprised many a trainer with his level of energy. So far its the only one he can keep weight on. You can always try it and if you don't like it... change.

Carla

[Hunter]

Laid back doesnt mean how hard you work your dogs, some GSPs are more hyper and tend to be more high strung WHILE NOT WORKING. I base my dog food on two things, one my dog needs to look good on it and two, the stools better be solid where if I kick it with my boot it moves. Nothing I hate more is cleaning up messy kennels. Like I said dont pay attn to what or who sponsors or reccommends feeding, you feed what your dog looks good on and that for me is Black Gold as I feed less than Native and stools are solid and my dogs look and feel great. Native's big selling points is it is pheasants forevers preferred food and they are a major sponsor, thats great but they dont feed everyones dog and all dogs are differnt, so feed what is best for your dog whatever it may be.

[ezzy333]

I know there can be some subtle differences in dogs but in all the feeding test we have done we have found very little difference in their digestive process. Dogs as well as other animals have a basic requirement that is unique to the specie. That's why you find feed lots feed thousands of beef cattle all the same feed, dairy cattle all the same feed, hogs all the same, and dogs all the same. That said there is a difference in how much each will need and/or eat. Many reasons for that but as we all know activity levels, temperature, and individual metabolism enter into that. But by and large dogs can all be fed very much alike such as feeding the same feed as long as we pay attention to how much they need to maintain their activity level and their body weight.

This is why people with multiple dogs that like Pro Plan feed it to all of their dogs as do the people who like Black Gold, Exceed, Diamond, or every other brand of feed. The difference in what we feed is based more on the what the person feeding likes while how much to feed is based on what the dog needs.

Those of us that have a dog or two have become like the people with a horse or two. We have elevated them to almost child like status an have forgot just how strong and self sufficient our animals have been through out history without the special feed and accommodations we think they need to be healthy and survive. Even here on this board, the almost constant discussion of which feed is better, or which feed makes my dog look better, or the need to constantly change feeds is between the people with a dog or two while the people who have kennels full of dogs, both of their own and ones they have while training or boarding or competing just find a feed that is economical and the dogs do well on it and feed it for years with little or no problem.

Just my observation,

Ezzy

[birddogger]

I know there can be some subtle differences in dogs but in all the feeding test we have done we have found very little difference in their digestive process. Dogs as well as other animals have a basic requirement that is unique to the specie. That's why you find feed lots feed thousands of beef cattle all the same feed, dairy cattle all the same feed, hogs all the same, and dogs all the same. That said there is a difference in how much each will need and/or eat. Many reasons for that but as we all know activity levels, temperature, and individual metabolism enter into that. But by and large dogs can all be fed very much alike such as feeding the same feed as long as we pay attention to how much they need to maintain their activity level and their body weight.

This is why people with multiple dogs that like Pro Plan feed it to all of their dogs as do the people who like Black Gold, Exceed, Diamond, or every other brand of feed. The difference in what we feed is based more on the what the person feeding likes while how much to feed is based on what the dog needs.

Those of us that have a dog or two have become like the people with a horse or two. We have elevated them to almost child like status an have forgot just how strong and self sufficient our animals have been through out history without the special feed and accommodations we think they need to be healthy and survive. Even here on this board, the almost constant discussion of which feed is better, or which feed makes my dog look better, or the need to constantly change feeds is between the people with a dog or two while the people who have kennels full of dogs, both of their own and ones they have while training or boarding or competing just find a feed that is economical and the dogs do well on it and feed it for years with little or no problem.

Just my observation,

Ezzy

And a correct observation.

Charlie

[splucinski]

I started feeding level 2 a couple weeks back, right now I'm still mixing with her previous food. So far so good. The only problem is that only one place close sells it and it's about 30 minutes away. I just need to buy multiple bags.

[BirdieBoiler]

I feed my 2 year old BLM Native Level 3 during the season and Level 2 in the off season. Diesel does great on it. Only issue is nearest dealer is 45 miles from where I live...

[ezzy333]

Lets just figure somewhere near 50 cents a mile. Believe that is about 40 miles more than I would consider driving for feed for a dog or two. Makes a single bag of feed cost you about 70 to 80 dollars. Think I would find some other alternative

Ezzy

[big steve46]

Lets just figure somewhere near 50 cents a mile. Believe that is about 40 miles more than I would consider driving for feed for a dog or two. Makes a single bag of feed cost you about 70 to 80 dollars. Think I would find some other alternative

Ezzy

I'm sure one could do it for 20 cents a mile, but your point is well taken. Native is a good feed, but there are many good feeds. I sure wouldn't drive that far for feed when I can drive 9 miles and have a choice of several good feeds for 30 dollars or under per bag.

[Chaingang]

I feed my 2 year old BLM Native Level 3 during the season and Level 2 in the off season. Diesel does great on it. Only issue is nearest dealer is 45 miles from where I live...

For those of you who are having trouble finding a Native dealer close to you, go to the link below and type in your Zip to find the nearest dealer.

If that doesn't work use their link on the same page to "Do it Best" for a participating hardware store that can bring in Native on a order basis. Again type in your Zip for the participating stores near you. Many times a stocking dealer may not be close, but a participating "Do it Best" store will be. As far as I know the pricing will be same as a dealer.

Go here: http://www.nativedogfood.com/buy.php

[Will]

I use Native coupons I gathered at our Pheasant's Forever banquet and get an additional $4 off per bag. It's not a lot but every little bit helps. I manage to scrounge up enough to last the whole year. It's particularly nice for when we travel through where there is a larger retailer of Native as sometimes it's a few bucks cheaper or you catch it on sale....I'll pick up a half dozen backs or so.

All Pheasants Forever chapters get these coupons in their banquet packages every year compliments of Native so go enjoy and suppor PF and get some coupons!!

[smokinsam]

I also used native for my GSP.my partner used it for his brittanys and we both had the same problems.
they were,loose stool and lost weight.so I switched to purina proplan and now have no issues except the price.

[Chaingang]

I also used native for my GSP.my partner used it for his brittanys and we both had the same problems.
they were,loose stool and lost weight.so I switched to purina proplan and now have no issues except the price.

What level were you feeding and how much?

Could the loose stools have been from the transition period?

Kent Feeds recommends a 10-12 day transition period and 4+ week trial period to really evaluate your dogs take to it. Overfeeding can cause loose stools as well. Not suggesting you hadn't taken this all into account just stating some possibilities.

[smokinsam]

I also used native for my GSP.my partner used it for his brittanys and we both had the same problems.
they were,loose stool and lost weight.so I switched to purina proplan and now have no issues except the price.

What level were you feeding and how much?

Could the loose stools have been from the transition period?

Kent Feeds recommends a 10-12 day transition period and 4+ week trial period to really evaluate your dogs take to it. Overfeeding can cause loose stools as well. Not suggesting you hadn't taken this all into account just stating some possibilities.

the transition was at least 10-12 days,even a bit longer.
we fed what the bag said according to weight and I believe it was level 3.not 100% tho.

[fordman]

I had the same results as Smokinsam, I fed level 3- 5 bags during the summer 2 different dogs setter, pointer both lost weight and stools were many and then the price went up, No thanks.

[mcbosco]

It all comes down to processing. You can have identical ingredients and different outcomes from brand to brand even batch to batch. Some of the smaller companies use a slow crock method that processes the carbohydrates more completely. It might seem trivial but added carbohydrate digestibility of 10% makes a big difference.

I only know 3 brands and one co-packer that are using this cooking method. I would think it is too expensive to use on a large scale just like baking.

[ezzy333]

It all comes down to processing. You can have identical ingredients and different outcomes from brand to brand even batch to batch.
Some of the smaller companies use a slow crock method that processes the carbohydrates more completely. It might seem trivial but added carbohydrate digestibility of 10% makes a big difference.

I only know 3 brands and one co-packer that are using this cooking method. I would think it is too expensive to use on a large scale just like baking.

What cooking procedure are you talking about? And why do they cook their feed since the ingredients are already cooked?

You can have identical ingredients and different outcomes from brand to brand even batch to batch

. If you find this to be true run, don't walk, away as the company won't be in business long. When the batches are not uniform and consistent FDA will shut them down immediately. This may not be true with raw manufacturers that do not mix their feeds into a homogeneous mix but it sure isn't true of any dry feed manufacturer.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

Al, don't you have other things to do then always get in the way of a conversation. I saw from another string you finally woke up to the fact that bloat & torsion is indeed a serious problem, rather than some trivial annoyance like gas. You did this with the duck eggs as well and were wrong. As well as the harm of bacteria loads on raw meat, yadayadayada...pro-biotics as well.

Bottom line is that most kibbles are processed to about 80- 85% digestibility (carbs), better ones to 95% if they don't mind cutting into profit margins.



Sal

[ezzy333]

Al, don't you have other things to do then always get in the way of a conversation. I saw from another string you finally woke up to the fact that bloat & torsion is indeed a serious problem, rather than some trivial annoyance like gas. You did this with the duck eggs as well and were wrong. As well as the harm of bacteria loads on raw meat, yadayadayada...pro-biotics as well.

Bottom line is that most kibbles are processed to about 80- 85% digestibility (carbs), better ones to 95% if they don't mind cutting into profit margins.



Sal

Bottom line is we never processed any carbs to improve digestibility. Maybe some one does and I would like to know what and how they are doing it. Is it too much to ask in a conversation to have you explain what you are talking about or would it be better if we all just accept what ever bits of info you want to impart to us peons without knowing?

Seems you talk in a lot of generalities with little info that any of us can learn from. This is a subject I have spent a lot of time learning about and I guess it is just hard to stop.

Sorry Sal, I will try to keep quiet when we have our next conversation. Think I better go look up the definition of that word.


Ezzy

[bossman]

Hope it's ok to mention it..But a great post by gundogdoc on another site you might find interesting. Upland journal...Upland Talk...Another dog food thread...page 6..Hope this helps the "conversation"..(Gosh, I feel this is becoming a scene form the movie The Last Samurai)

[Georgia Boy]

How about a link?

[bossman]

Hope this link works
http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ik ... 4984;st=75

[mcbosco]

I read it and its just another guy that worked for a big dog food company. Some is correct and some is not. The comments about smaller companies getting inferior ingredients is total nonsense. In fact they are much pickier. No one can tell me that family owned Natura, Canidae, or any of the other "small" guys cut corners while the Nestle, Proctor & Gamble & Mars sweat the details, well maybe in the accounting department.

Anyone that feeds Diamond, Sport Mix, Pro Pac, and Purina should call the company and ask if the fish meal they use is Ethoxyquin free. It would be interesting to hear the answers. Likewise, call Purina and ask what percentage of crude protein in PP is from animal sources. Good luck getting the answer. Then ask if the grains they use are non-GMO, good luck getting the answer.

My good friend and partner was a partner at the largest co-packers on the east coast and he told me his bigger clients would gladly let him source a wider range of ingredients from almost anywhere while the smaller boutique clients were always much more involved and particular about ingredients. I doubt the owners of Blackwood, Abady & Annamaet just wallow away buying inferior ingredients from god knows where. In fact I know they don't and in fact I know they buy better ingredients.

The comment that big companies have more reliable labels is a total joke. No company misleads more on its labels and advertising than Purina.

He is right about one thing and that is labeling. US labeling standards are a total insult to the public. He is also right about varying grades of ingredients and that explains why dogs do better on some foods rather than others even with nearly identical ingredients. What he is wrong on is that the bigger companies are the ones using lower grades almost across the board.

As for his comments on raw food, why should he think different he is from the industry. If you used his reasoning then domesticated cows, goats, sheep and horses shouldn't be allowed to graze.

[ezzy333]

I read it and its just another guy that worked for a big dog food company. Some is correct and some is not. The comments about smaller companies getting inferior ingredients is total nonsense. In fact they are much pickier. No one can tell me that family owned Natura, Canidae, or any of the other "small" guys cut corners while the Nestle, Proctor & Gamble & Mars sweat the details, well maybe in the accounting department.

Anyone that feeds Diamond, Sport Mix, Pro Pac, and Purina should call the company and ask if the fish meal they use is Ethoxyquin free. It would be interesting to hear the answers. Likewise, call Purina and ask what percentage of crude protein in PP is from animal sources. Good luck getting the answer. Then ask if the grains they use are non-GMO, good luck getting the answer.

My good friend and partner was a partner at the largest co-packers on the east coast and he told me his bigger clients would gladly let him source a wider range of ingredients from almost anywhere while the smaller boutique clients were always much more involved and particular about ingredients. I doubt the owners of Blackwood, Abady & Annamaet just wallow away buying inferior ingredients from god knows where. In fact I know they don't and in fact I know they buy better ingredients.

The comment that big companies have more reliable labels is a total joke. No company misleads more on its labels and advertising than Purina.

He is right about one thing and that is labeling. US labeling standards are a total insult to the public. He is also right about varying grades of ingredients and that explains why dogs do better on some foods rather than others even with nearly identical ingredients. What he is wrong on is that the bigger companies are the ones using lower grades almost across the board.

As for his comments on raw food, why should he think different he is from the industry. If you used his reasoning then domesticated cows, goats, sheep and horses shouldn't be allowed to graze.

Some one hit a nerve it sounds like. I suppose we should all be clever enough to believe someone with no education in nutrition or any connection to the industry over someone who has worked in it, educated in it and is still working at learning.

I don't agree with everything he had to say either but he has pretty much told you how it is from a nutritional standpoint. I think he was off a little on some of the actual manufacturing but over all told you exactly what most of us already know. A little common sense would help everyone understand what he is saying is pretty much true.

By the way, he isn't from the industry, he works in the industry. Hope you can find some people who think you know what you are talking about when you talk about your line of work. Think I will give the good Doctor the same courtesy.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

You are totally wrong about both statements Al. You pick the experts that agree with you and that is the height of intellectual dishonesty. I could send you article after article from others. The truth is that dogs get sicker and sicker each year, obesity, diabetes, cancer, bloat, rotten teeth and allergies all coincide with widespread use of poor quality commercial diets. Those are the facts.

This is big business if you haven't noticed, very very few have the consumer's interest at heart.

[mcbosco]

You should read the work of Dr. Richard Dahout (cornell) & Kymythy R. Schultze and the countless other "crack pots" rather than just listening to big business.

[windswept]

This is big business if you haven't noticed, very very few have the consumer's interest at heart.

What makes you think he is some kind of shill for "big business"? He's a veterinarian who has some experience in the industry and quite a bit of training in the area of animal nutrition. He doesn't make a plug nickel from the dog food industry (other than the few bags of food his practice sells to a few of his clients).

[mcbosco]

"I have worked for two major dog food manufacturers, a performance supplement manufacturer and was recently accepted into a PhD program in nutrition."

"That being said I do have one dog on NutriSource (I previously worked for them), it is the only non-prescription diet Maggie can tolerate."

No offense to Vets, we need them, but Vets get very little training in nutrition and Vet schools get huge amounts of funding from the industry.

I would rather take the advise of someone like this:

http://www.skansen.com/nutrition/, then click "give your dog a bone"

This guy's comment that dogs have "evolved" into domesticated animals and therefore don't require raw meat is quite interesting because last time I looked inside Mickey's mouth every tooth was designed for either puncturing or tearing, not chewing or grinding. Moreover, the stomach acid of a domesticated dog and a wolf are exactly the same. If he were right, the green tripe my dog eats should have killed him by now. And if he were right then dogs would have developed the proper enzymes in their saliva to digest commercial dog food.

Domestication and evolution are not the same thing.

I love the comment that if raw diets were that good Purina or some company of that size would have done it. He doesn't understand the big business model. Yes Dr. they only do what's best not what's the easiest and most profitable.

[ezzy333]

Sal,

You have had free rein on this board to express your ideas over the past year or so. And during that time you have expressed them more often than any other member. But maybe it is time to just put it away for a while. When all you can do is criticize every individual and every company that is involved in the dog food industry except for a couple of smaller companies who primarily manufacture a speciality feed for people who just can't bring themselves to feed like everyone else does it is time to give it up. You have gotten to the place now where you are making up info and trying to pass it as fact in retaliation to educated people that try to give us all some info based on their knowledge and experiences. I believe everyone can see the evidence of our dogs living longer, healthier lives and much of it is due to better nutrition.

During this time of your rants I haven't heard a single individual tell you that you shouldn't feed your raw diet if that is what you want. No one has said you are killing your dog. So why does it irk you so much to see millions of healthy dogs performing every kind of tests that man can dream up while eating this diet you are telling all of us will kill our dogs before their time. And the facts are they are living longer every year.

Please let it drop. Feed your dog the way you like and let the rest of us feed what we like as well as see it do a great job of keeping our dogs happy, healthy, and fit to perform in every venue we put them in.

Hope everything works out well for you and your dog,

Al

[kumate]

Why was my post deleted?

jerry

[big steve46]

I'm kind of middle of the road on this argument. I see merit both ways. I believe that most good commercially produced dog feed will do quite well for most working dogs. I believe that dogs have evolved into being omnivores, and there's nothing wrong with feeding grains, even corn. There are exceptions for a few dogs however. I do have an accredited degree in nutrition plus other science degrees, but I don't know everything, and I'm still learning. Different strokes for different folks!

The main thing is to be happy with your dog's performance, coat, and stools. I do believe you can easily accomplish that without paying a dollar a pound for the feed also.