Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

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12guns
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Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:22 am

So I've done a lot of reading, and put my 9 week old Lab on PMI Exclusive Puppy food. He seems to love it and is doing fine. I went to my vet last Thurs and she reminded me to make sure he's on Large Breed puppy food. I didn't even realize it but the Exclusive puppy is regular, not large breed. I bought a bag of Large Breed and am making the switch, but people on other forums are saying the LB is not always for labs? Some say the glucosamine amounts are not enough to help at all w/ joint health. What are you opinions? Should I stick w/ regular puppy or go ahead w/ Large Breed Puppy?

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:37 am

Large breed foods might be warranted in truly large or giant breeds but a Lab is a medium breed dog. A good all stage formula is what I would use but don't throw away food you have. All stage formulas are generally cheaper so you can buy a better all stage food for the same price as an average puppy formula. Double check though that it is an all stage formula because some maintenance foods are not.

If you want to feed stuff for joints, chicken necks, chicken backs, knuckle bones, ox tails are loaded with glucosamine and are cheap. Most experts don't believe there is sufficient glucosamine added to commercial dogs foods to make a difference.

At 9 weeks the best you can do for joints is avoid injury and keep the pup at proper weight, so take it easy on a pup that young and even while the pup develops a bit, don't overwork it. A 6 month old lab might look pretty grown up but its still developing, the last thing you want is a hip, knee or elbow injury at that age.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:50 pm

Puppies or dogs of any age should not need anything extra for their joints over a good food. Later in life you may be able to make a case for it if the dog develops arthritis or or has been injured. But under normal conditions normal feed in normal quantities should be fine. Long time supplementation of any thing should be avoided if possible as it tends to cause the body to stop production of the things you are supplementing.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:57 pm

So the Exclusive Puppy that Wilson has been on has 29/18 protein/fat. The large breed adult and large breed puppy have 4-5% less protien.
Looks like I'll be sticking w/ Exclusive Puppy Chicken and Rice. I like the food, good quality, and I like the idea of higher protien.
Let me know your opinions and if there's any other benifit to LB puppy. Exclusive doesn't offer a All Life Stages food.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:25 pm

Just don't feed too much and let the pup get heavy. Slower growth plus slightly thin is an advantage.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:29 pm

So in your opinion is the Exclusive Puppy a good quality food? I thought so, I like the fresh chicken and high protien, but on dogfoodanalysis they talk about the Beet pulp and other fillers they don't like? I'll keep him on it if it's a good food, Wilson does seem to like it and it's avail where I live. TOTW is also avail, and I can alway order online. Just when I thought I had my mind made up I now feel like there may be an even better food out there for the same prices as Exclusive Puppy. It runs about $1 / pound and the 7th bag is free. Keep it simple, yes or no to Exclusive, and if no, give me three options to research and choose from...Thanks so much!

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:57 pm

12guns wrote:So in your opinion is the Exclusive Puppy a good quality food? I thought so, I like the fresh chicken and high protien, but on dogfoodanalysis they talk about the Beet pulp and other fillers they don't like? I'll keep him on it if it's a good food, Wilson does seem to like it and it's avail where I live. TOTW is also avail, and I can alway order online. Just when I thought I had my mind made up I now feel like there may be an even better food out there for the same prices as Exclusive Puppy. It runs about $1 / pound and the 7th bag is free. Keep it simple, yes or no to Exclusive, and if no, give me three options to research and choose from...Thanks so much!
The dog food analysis you are reading is a marketing ad put out by someone and has little validity of fact. There is no filler in dog food and beet pulp is an important addition for the health of the digestive system. In all honesty the fresh chicken is not a big deal as it has less food value than chicken by-product or even chicken meal has. But it is ok.

I am not familiar enough with Exclusive to tell you how good it is but most feeds that are on the market are pretty darn good. The worst thing you can do is start chasing a better feed as there will always be one that someone says is better. I never feed puppy food to our pups so I may be a bad one to listen to but the important thing is to find a food your pup is doing well on and likes, you can afford, and it is readily available. From that point on when you have someone tell you there is a better food just smile and say in your most agreeable voice "marvelous" or "really" and then just keep feeding what you are that is working for you and your pup. I do think you can find a good food cheaper but that is up to you if it's important enough to switch.

The only thing that has much validity about the food you feed is how is your pup doing on it and if it is working stay right there.


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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by bossman » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:31 pm

Exclusive is made by PMI Nutrition and, in my opinion, a very good food.My nephew has been feeding it to his GSP'S for a couple of years and is very satisfied. On a recent quail hunt to south Texas with an old veterinarian friend (known him for 40 years, he's been a vet for 40 years and he's north of 60 years old so I guess he qualifies as "old" on most accounts) we had the discussion of "puppy" vs "all life stages" food. He would argue that the "all life stages" is the gimmick. May not have the necessary amounts vitamins, minerals, etc (he specifially mentioned calcium) that a growing pup needs. And when you really think about it..would a 5 month old pup need the same formula as a 7 year old dog as a 12 year old dog? Don't know, but I'm no vet, but I do trust my friend. If he's doing well on Exclusive...good weight, coat, muscle tone, stools,etc..I'd stay the course. As Ezzy has always pointed out on this board many times...the dog will tell you what's best. Just watch your dog and be careful of suppliments for a puppy of adding exotic items to his diet at this age...Just my opinion.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by Rick Hall » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:36 pm

Here's some science on the subject: Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs

You may note that Labradors are specifically cited as one of the studied breeds in which rapid growth was associated with skeletal abnormality.
Last edited by Rick Hall on Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:42 pm

Last time I checked, natural prey for canines like rabbits, mice, ground nesting birds eggs, deer, etc are all technically "all life stages" :wink:

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Well thanks. The store that sells Exclusive is closed. So I've put myself in a tough spot cause now I don't have enough to get thru the next couple days. I bought a small bag of Taste of The Wild. I have enough Exclusive puppy to switch him over, but I know it's not good to be switching a puppy much. He's been on Exclusive for several weeks and doing well with it. I just got home and read your opinions about Exclusive and will stick w/ it if that's best for my puppy. If you say go ahead with TOTW, I will. Those are my two options right now. Leave the puppy on Exclusive and feed puppy chow for a day? Or mix with TTOW and switch for good??? Thanks so much

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:25 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Here's some science on the subject: [url+http://www.ilovemypet.com/jackart.html]Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs[/url]

You may note that Labradors are specifically cited as one of the studied breeds in which rapid growth was associated with skeletal abnormality.
I'm in complete agreement with Rick. Get that pup off of the puppy food. I take my pups off of puppy food at 10 weeks of age and put them on a good quality adult food.

I've known of cases of HOD in Labs.
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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:07 pm

mcbosco wrote:Last time I checked, natural prey for canines like rabbits, mice, ground nesting birds eggs, deer, etc are all technically "all life stages" :wink:
Can you tell us what makes one food an "all life stages" and another one not? Also how did the pups get fed all of those critters since Mom and Pop didn't have grocery bags or carts? Just not sure we know what those puppies ate. If the dogs are as smart as a pigeon they changed food everyday depending on temperature and other environmental changes like the pigeons do. I see our cats change what they feed the kittens as they grow and I believe you will see the same thing with the dogs given free choice of different things to eat.

But please answer that first question as that is something I don't think many people know.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by big steve46 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:20 pm

Most dogs, including pups, do well on most good quality feed. It's not necessary to feed puppy food, nor is TOTW necessary. I have been feeding "Enhance Hunters Edge" to my 7 1/2 mos old Llewellin. He looks great. I fed Diamond Premium for many years. Don't feel guilty if you pay less than 80 cents a pound. There is too much hype in feed advertising, and the worst is "dogfoodanalysis."
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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:39 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mcbosco wrote:Last time I checked, natural prey for canines like rabbits, mice, ground nesting birds eggs, deer, etc are all technically "all life stages" :wink:
Can you tell us what makes one food an "all life stages" and another one not? Also how did the pups get fed all of those critters since Mom and Pop didn't have grocery bags or carts? Just not sure we know what those puppies ate. If the dogs are as smart as a pigeon they changed food everyday depending on temperature and other environmental changes like the pigeons do. I see our cats change what they feed the kittens as they grow and I believe you will see the same thing with the dogs given free choice of different things to eat.

But please answer that first question as that is something I don't think many people know.

Ezzy
I guess you missed my point, but what is yours?

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:33 pm

Ezzy, is it ok to feed TOTW to a pup?
what about this article?

http://hubpages.com/hub/Healthy-Dog-Foo ... -Puppy-Dry

Sure doesn't speak well for Exclusive, but could be nonsense.
I have a small bag of TOTW I'm mixing w/ his old food. I think I'll stick to TOTW if it's ok for a puppy. It's the "wetlands" mix. TOTW gets good reviews every where and I like the idea of grain free. It's a little more costly, but worth it if you guys agree it's a good "all stages" food.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:51 pm

TOTW is a good feed as far as I have heard. And the ingredient list of the Exclusive looks great. The article that you linked to is just completely fictious. Makes me wonder how they get by printing most of that without dome one takin them to court. Guess it is because they are so vague you can't pin them down on most of it.

I think you would be fone going either way. I like some others am not a supporter of puppy food. However, the grain and beet pulp are pluses and don't get caught up in all of the old wifes tales about how bad they are and all of the problems they cause. Just flat isn't true. I have fed Diamond Premium to the last few litters I have raised and had excellent results and as an added benefit it was cheaper than most of the premium feeds on the market. If you feel comfortable with the TOTW go with it and if you see down the road that the pup isn't performing well on it you can always change.

Just remember DO NOT get caught up in all of the my feed is better than yours that is so prevelent here on this forum and through out the doggy world. Many highly schooled nutritionist write the formulas for most of the feeds and know what they are doing.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:08 pm

Ezzy, you've been more help that you know. TOTW has 2.1 calcium, a bit high and possible for too fast bone growth? I think that makes up my mind. I'll stick w/ Exclusive Puppy. I have a whole bag of LB puppy, but it has 2% lower protien and I know his stool looks better w/ the puppy. He hasn't been on the LB puppy long enough, but he does have loose stool right now. Not runny, but not as solid as w/ the puppy exclusive he was on.
Thanks again. TOTW will be my next food, but in the years to come!

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by Rick Hall » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:05 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Here's some science on the subject: Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs

You may note that Labradors are specifically cited as one of the studied breeds in which rapid growth was associated with skeletal abnormality.


I see I'd not proofed the link in the above post, but it's fixed now. Will, among other things, speak to your calcium question.
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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by bossman » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:17 pm

Rick..Great information..Thanks..If I read it correctly, I don't see any evil's of "growth' formula's. "The practice of moving from energy dense foods to maintaince type foods...may worsen total calcium intake"..In additoion it states..as many on this board have stated(Ezzy).. "That potential for harm is in overnutrition from excess comsumption and oversupplementation". Again..no perfect food for pup or mature dog. Just feed the best you can and watch and monitor your pup..Continue discussions with knowledgable dog people and always consult your vet..For what it's worth, that's the way I see it.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:45 pm

Yes thanks Rich.

It is essentially what Robert Abady said over 30 years ago and what Orijen says today. That high levels of protein especially high quality protein does not adversely affect bone growth but low levels of protein do and that smaller amounts of higher density food is better than the opposite.

It confirms what I do and that is feed smaller amounts of higher calorie food to avoid the multiplier effect of certain nutrients.

Bossman, the evils was not the formulas to me it was the pricing and marketing. What I feed is far more rich and caloric than a normal puppy or growth formulas.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:39 pm

mcbosco wrote:Yes thanks Rich.

It is essentially what Robert Abady said over 30 years ago and what Orijen says today. That high levels of protein especially high quality protein does not adversely affect bone growth but low levels of protein do and that smaller amounts of higher density food is better than the opposite.

It confirms what I do and that is feed smaller amounts of higher calorie food to avoid the multiplier effect of certain nutrients.

Bossman, the evils was not the formulas to me it was the pricing and marketing. What I feed is far more rich and caloric than a normal puppy or growth formulas.
I think most people know that protein is needed for muscle growth and minerals are needed for bone growth. I see little if any connection to what you are feeding but if you do it is OK. A good commercial dog food provides all of the nutrition needed for a dog at most any stage of life and actually provides more than is needed quite often. And that is why the people feeding a good food get terrific performance out of their dogs without all of the supplements that some of you prescribe on an almost continual basis and is why I stress not overfeeding and keeping your dog and pup on the slim side especially during the growing years. The commercial dog food on the market today are the greatest thing that has happened for the well being of our dogs and it shows in the performances and longevity of our dogs as well as the fact that 99% of the people making a living training and handling dogs feed just that.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:31 pm

I have never even talked about a supplement (except probiotics) other food-based additions to a commercial diet. I consider eggs, meat, fish oil and the like to be food not supplements.

As for the foods you support, if you kept track you would find that as many people complain about it as like it. What I find particularly disconcerting is how you never question the commercial pet food industry. You asked me a question about ALS but I didn't answer because it is obvious. Let me ask you something, what exactly do AAFCO feeding tests entail? Do you think many people would be surprised that the protocol is that only 8 dogs have to eat nothing but that food for six months, not lose more 15% of their body weight and none can die during the test. Is that the cracker jack science you are talking about? This might have changed but I do recall certain plastics being allowed in limited amounts as roughage.

You are right about one thing, most commercial foods are better nowadays but its only because concerned consumers and smarter, more ethical producers got in the game. Just imagine what most dogs would be eating if the original Eukanuba, Innova & Canidae didn't come on the scene years ago.

Respectfully,

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by big steve46 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:46 pm

Susan Peters is obviously an unqualified, biased, mis-guided idiot in the aforementioned article. To say that a product that has chicken as the first two ingredients is no better than Ol'Roy is purely nonsensical! There's a happy median to all of this. The extremely expensive feeds are unnecessary, and the poor quality feeds are unproductive.
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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by 12guns » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:43 am

Well, Wilson is now back on the same food he started on...Exclusive Puppy by PMI. Thanks for all the help here. Lots of info to process, should have stuck w/ the puppy food to begin w/ rather than listening to my vet who said make sure he's on a LB puppy formula. You guys are right and much more informed than my vet. I guess the biggest difference is having umlimited opinions on here rather than her opinion that may or may not be right. Thanks again! I'll keep Wilson on this food probably until he's 12 months. I'll monitor his intake and make sure he's not too fat. I don't like a fat puppy and based on all I've read a touch on the lean side is better for his health.

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Re: Large Breed Puppy or Regular Puppy for Lab

Post by A/C Guy » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:46 am

We tried TOTW and switched from it to Black Gold Ultimate Performance 31/21.
Our dogs like it better. Less food needed to maintain weight = less clean up.
At 75 cents/lb, it is a bargain.
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