dog losing weight on high performance food

tori · Post by **tori** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:43 am

i have tried many brands of 30/20 and have the same results for the most part. my 6 year old gsp 52 pounds is hungry all the time and lost weight compared to the off season food when i am not working him. right now i am feeding the nutrisource super perfromance for 3 weeks now. started with 3 cups a day and bumped it up to 4. his stools look good.
i started the Nzymes 2 weeks ago with no change. i ruled out worms since he doesnt have this problem on his off season food. that was eagle pak. this happens every year when i switch to a performance food and i have tried just about all of the recommended ones. some will make him so hungry he will eat horse pucky and other dogs stools. his own stools too.
however curently on nutrisource i have not witnessed any of this. any help

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:50 am

I don't have an answer, but I do find a question. if the Eagle Pak is working in the "offseason" why do you switch the dog off of it...will he not maintain on it ? The other question i have is does the dog look unhealthy when it loses weight when he's being worked or is he just getting in better shape like we all do when we go from a sedentary life style to one of exersize?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:51 am

tori wrote: i ruled out worms since he doesnt have this problem on his off season food.

When I need to supplement my dogs' food, I do it with chicken that I nuke in the microwave with the skin on, all in a some water. I mince it and put it in their food. I've never had a problem with it other than they then turn up their nose if they don't have it. Kinda locks you into doing it all season.

Greg J.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:19 pm

I've never had a problem with the dogs losing excessive weight from working as long as you feed a good quality feed with corn as one of the top ingredients. I like to see a meat source first followed by ground yellow corn and a high fat content which I can change easily by adding some canola oil. I do not supplement or add appetizers for the exact reason Greg just stated. They are fed a dry food without moistening to help reduce the tartar buildup and to make sure they get as much nutrition from their feed as possible. High fat and carbs will provide the nutrition needed to maintain weight. And of course you increase the feed as needed during high activity and/or cold weather.

Ezzy

tori · Post by **tori** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:27 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:I don't have an answer, but I do find a question. if the Eagle Pak is working in the "offseason" why do you switch the dog off of it...will he not maintain on it ? The other question i have is does the dog look unhealthy when it loses weight when he's being worked or is he just getting in better shape like we all do when we go from a sedentary life style to one of exersize?

thats correct. he will lose weight when i start working him. my working him is 30 minutes of swimming 3-4 days a week when weather was warm. then i free run him 1 hour 3-4 days a week when its cold. havent even started hunting him yet . he will really be working then. i hunt 6 days at a time about 4 to 6 hours a day. a long break in the middle

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:40 pm

thats correct. he will lose weight when i start working him. my working him is 30 minutes of swimming 3-4 days a week when weather was warm. then i free run him 1 hour 3-4 days a week when its cold. havent even started hunting him yet . he will really be working then. i hunt 6 days at a time about 4 to 6 hours a day. a long break in the middletori

He's like the Michael Phelps of Shorthairs...of course if he tried some of the magic grass he was smoking he would REALLY be hungry

I'm no canine nutrionists but in general terms i would think if he loses weight with increased work he needs more calories. I have a couple who are hard keepers when they're worked as well.

tori · Post by **tori** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:17 pm

how about this. increase his food a 1/2 cup at a time until he looks better or his stools change. whatever comes first. sounds like a 52 pound dog eating 4 cups a day is already a bit high but its all i can think of to go to 4 1/2 cups

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:19 pm

a picture would be nice

alex0742 · Post by **alex0742** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:43 pm

make sure you have plenty of good bedding in the kennel. Dogs consume calories when cold and especially if they shiver. You might want to add canola or olive oil to the food.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:12 pm

tori wrote:i have tried many brands of 30/20 and have the same results for the most part. my 6 year old gsp 52 pounds is hungry all the time and lost weight compared to the off season food when i am not working him. right now i am feeding the nutrisource super perfromance for 3 weeks now. started with 3 cups a day and bumped it up to 4. his stools look good.
i started the Nzymes 2 weeks ago with no change. i ruled out worms since he doesnt have this problem on his off season food. that was eagle pak. this happens every year when i switch to a performance food and i have tried just about all of the recommended ones. some will make him so hungry he will eat horse pucky and other dogs stools. his own stools too.
however curently on nutrisource i have not witnessed any of this. any help

I don't believe a dog who eats his stools and others has anything to do with being hungry. I wouldn't use that behave as a sign of being hungry. Many dogs do that.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:53 pm

Sharon wrote:
tori wrote:i have tried many brands of 30/20 and have the same results for the most part. my 6 year old gsp 52 pounds is hungry all the time and lost weight compared to the off season food when i am not working him. right now i am feeding the nutrisource super perfromance for 3 weeks now. started with 3 cups a day and bumped it up to 4. his stools look good.
i started the Nzymes 2 weeks ago with no change. i ruled out worms since he doesnt have this problem on his off season food. that was eagle pak. this happens every year when i switch to a performance food and i have tried just about all of the recommended ones. some will make him so hungry he will eat horse pucky and other dogs stools. his own stools too.
however curently on nutrisource i have not witnessed any of this. any help
I don't believe a dog who eats his stools and others has anything to do with being hungry. I wouldn't use that behave as a sign of being hungry. Many dogs do that.

Right again Sharon. You are on a roll!

Charlie

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:19 am

A couple of things here, some dogs just have a higher metabolism it seems, my male is the same way. From what you have described that you do with your dog, he is getting a good bit of exercise, do you feed once a day or twice a day? If your feeding 3 cups once a day, try feeding 2 cups twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening, and in my opinion stick with the Nutrisource and nzymes, I think you will find that to be a bit helpful, give the nutrisource some time, it is a really good feed imo.

Chip

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:33 am

Sharon beat me to it

A dog eating any kind of manure does not mean he's hungry. Most dogs will eat or roll in horse, cow manures, and anything really stinky when they get the opportunity. Mmmmm. Also, I know a breeder who had his kennel eating Nutrisource, and a lot of them starting eating their stools; when he switched their feed, no more problem....

tori · Post by **tori** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:48 pm

I don't believe a dog who eats his stools and others has anything to do with being hungry. I wouldn't use that behave as a sign of being hungry. Many dogs do that.[/quote]

then what does it mean. obviously he is not getting what he needs from his normal intake

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:32 pm

There are a whole bunch of theories as to why some dogs eat their stools and other dogs' stools. It's called "pica" .

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pica_%28disorder%29

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:36 pm

then what does it mean. obviously he is not getting what he needs from his normal intake[quote]
I don't believe it necessarily means anything, other than it is a dog, and a dog sometimes eat things that are disgusting to us. As someone else mentioned, the more disgusting the smell is, the better they like it. My dogs love catfish stink bait.
I have one dog who is like a billy goat. I have to keep an eye on him, because he will try to eat anything he can get in his mouth.

The other day, my two dogs found a broken up pumpkin. They began chowing down on it, as if it were the best thing since beef steak. I don't believe it was because their bodies needed a little "punkin".

Charlie

tori · Post by **tori** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:33 am

the point in my scenario is it only happens on the high performance food. his off season food
does not bring out that behavior in him.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:47 am

Here are my thoughts... I feed Euk 30/20 year round. In the spring/summer NOBODY eats their poop. In the late fall/winter I have one that will eat it pretty much as soon as he drops it. He does not eat or roll in other animals manure, but sure likes dog poop. He is a very clean dog, and does not stomp in his poop while in the kennel.

A couple of others that will eat it every now and then if it's not picked up in a timely manner. (a couple of hours plus)

Maybe it's just a natural instinct to eat as much as possible during cold weather. I really don't know. Just my observations.

Doug

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:20 am

ezzy333 wrote:I've never had a problem with the dogs losing excessive weight from working as long as you feed a good quality feed with corn as one of the top ingredients.

There is no such thing as good quality corn! Those are three words that should never go together
Ever heard of lectins? How about leptins?
http://www.dogtorj.net/id110.html
Corn- The Toxic Grain (The primer)

13) I Understand why wheat and dairy cause food allergies but how can corn be a problem? Didn't the American Indian eat a lot of corn and do well on it?
That's a great question with good answers- and a very timely topic. In fact, Diane Sawyer just had a segment this morning on how pervasive corn is in our diet and she mentions how she tries to avoid corn. They did not really expound on why they felt it was so harmful (they needed me on there, LOL) but were instead focusing on the role it may play in obesity, which it does in a big way. Here is the link to the ABC broadcast- http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com:80/ver/256 ... cl=6960848

The main reason that corn causes obesity is the lectins (antibody-sized proteins/glycoproteins) it contains directly stimulate fat production. Here is a great primer on lectins for you- http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html . As the article describes, these lectins can do a number of things when they attach to a tissue cell in our body. One of the reactions is for the cell to duplicate or hypertrophy, which is what fat cells do in response to corn lectins. The glaring example of this is how corn feeding cattle not only fattens them up but causes them to deposit fat directly into their muscle. Do you want fat in your muscle? Absolutely not. But we do this in order to tenderize the meat, don't we? And how do we accomplish this again? We do this by feeding them- and us- unnatural grains that contain these potentially proteins (lectins).

And corn itself is unnatural. In fact, it cannot even reproduce on its own anymore. If we don't plant corn, it disappears...forever (which is not a bad thing except that it may make a good fuel source). Another fun fact can be found by doing a search for "corn gluten meal". You will find that it is used as a natural herbicide. Hmmm... It kills other plants. Does anything that we eat that is known to be healthy do this? If we ground up meat, eggs, broccoli, and bananas we would call it "fertilizer", wouldn't we?

Corn is what they now call a "cultigen". It no longer resembles its ancestors. The origins of corn lie in Middle America. It was later cultivated by the American Indian but something interesting happened whenever corn was introduced into a new population- pellagra broke out. Pellagra is a niacin deficiency and sources like Wikipedia (incorrectly) state that it was because niacin was locked deeply in the early forms of the corn's kernel and unavailable for absorption. This latter fact is true but would only account for pellagra if corn was their only source of niacin, an important B complex. Here is the link to Wikipedia that discusses the origins of maize (corn)- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize.

Some mistaken people think that people in Biblical days ate corn because the word "corn" is in the Bible. The fact is that "corn" means grain and that is why they called corn "corn". In Bible usage, corn referred to wheat and barley. And those two grains were safe and nutritious back then because man had not put his hand to them- yet. That was not done until the mid-400's AD, when the Northern Germanics blended "God's wheat" with two other plants (weeds) and created common wheat, the ancestor of what we now eat. This ushered in celiac disease which wiped many of them out with severe dysentery (IBS). This is historical fact. Why? Wheat was no longer pure in its generations and remains changed to this day. There are now "tares" among the wheat. And like corn, it has now been hybridized and genetically modified to death...our death.

The fact is that corn is the fourth food- along with gluten (wheat, barley, rye), dairy (casein) and soy- that can damage the villi of the small intestine and cause them to atrophy. These finger-like projections increase the surface area of the duodenum, jejunum and ileum, and are responsible for absorbing our B complex, along with our calcium, iron, iodine, C, and trace minerals (such as boron, magnesium, manganese, copper, zinc, and many others). So, pellagra broke out in these corn-eating populations because it caused celiac-like lesions in those groups just as gluten was doing in Western Europe after common wheat was first cultivated- and just soy was doing in Asia before they learned to ferment the stew out of it.

These four foods- wheat, cow's milk, soy and corn- were the major dietary mistakes made by groups on each of the main continents, with Africa being one of the only areas where they did just about everything right: Non-gluten grains and the right kind of milk from the what they refer to now as A2 cattle. Here is a link that discusses the second bad choice we made about dairy. The first mistake was jumping ship from goats to cows as the source of milk in the first place. The second blunder was choosing the wrong cow (A1 versus A2)- http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/news?article= ... 210fead0d9 .

Finally, corn is now being closely studied for its damaging neurological effects, especially in the autistic individual. Once again, certain lectins are capable of killing neurons. We know that gluten can do this in sensitized individuals so we really should not be surprised that corn lectins can do the same thing. High fructose corn syrup is also a neurotoxin. Soy also does this, aided by the neurotoxic amounts of the amino acid glutamate (the parent protein in MSG/monosodium glutamate) and staggering levels of estrogen it contains. Here is a link to some recent studies on the effects of corn on brain function- http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/publications/pdf/171.pdf

I would suggest an Internet search for things like "dangers of corn", "corn allergies", "high fructose corn syrup", and "corn gluten meal". I think you'll agree: We should have left corn's ancestors alone in Middle America, just like we should have left soy in the ground in Asia, allowed wheat to remain unchanged, and kept tending our flocks rather than developing dairy herds.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:49 am

There are many things I don't know, and some I think I know and you just came up with one I do know.

I would suggest an Internet search for things like "dangers of corn", "corn allergies", "high fructose corn syrup", and "corn gluten meal". I think you'll agree: We should have left corn's ancestors alone in Middle America, just like we should have left soy in the ground in Asia, allowed wheat to remain unchanged, and kept tending our flocks rather than developing dairy herds.Wlfdg

I do know nothing could be further from the truth than this whole statement. Three quarters od the worlds people would have starved to death with out the knowledge we have learned such as using natures foods and the ability to enhance them through selective breeding.

Like I have told other people, you are free to feed what you want and it is not necessary to try and tell the 99% that don't feed the way you do that their method is wrong. We know better after years and years of extensive study and experience.

As far as looking it up on the net, I can't think of a single subject that you can't find someones opinion posted as fact. And thats true here on this board as well.

Stop and look around and see the well fed people and dogs that fill your environment that have lived on the very foods you are saying shouldn't be eaten. Explain how and why they are alive and living longer and healthier than ever before.

Ezzy

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:38 pm

These are not opinions. They are studied, scientific facts. Another fact is that it can't be good to feed grains to carnivores. :roll:
How do people and dogs live longer? Life is easier. Better living conditions, hygiene and medical intervention. There is more disease and obesity though. Can't argue with that. That is nutrition based.

Above are not "opinions". Feeding corn is good is an opinion.

Corn contains lectins which block the release of leptins which causes overeating which causes the development of triglycerides which causes obesity which causes disease is scientific fact! Along with all of the other facts in that paper.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:50 pm

Tori,

Be very specific... Exactly what formula of Eagle Pack do you use in the off season, the blue bag? What performance formula do you use, Eagle Pack Power formula in the orange bag? OR... Do you change brands of the performance food?
If your dog looses weight on the performance food go back to the Eagle food and feed more if needed.

Keep up with the Nzymes it will help over time.

tori · Post by **tori** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:24 pm

it was the original formula. 25/15. its not the only off season food that worked. the original canidae was good too. i left him on the original eagle pack blue bag for a while while beginning my working him and increased to 4 cups a day but he was skin and bones so i tried the nutrisource. i can see 5 ribs on each side will he is standing. his backbone stands out too. i like to get him to see just a couple of ribs and less backbone showing.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:55 pm

Would like to hear from others if they think trying a feed with a bit higher fat content might help...Native Level 4, Enchance Professional Athlete, Black Gold Ultimate Performance just to mention a few..

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:10 pm

bossman wrote:Would like to hear from others if they think trying a feed with a bit higher fat content might help...Native Level 4, Enchance Professional Athlete, Black Gold Ultimate Performance just to mention a few..

Any time you need more calories you need to increase the carbs and/or the fat. The protein is good for growth and repair of muscle tissue but the energy normally should come primarily from the carb and fat portion. I many times have added some vegetable oil or animal fat during cold weather or heavy exercise. Seems to work great for me and I would rather do that than change feeds.

Ezzy

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:42 pm

I use lard rather than the vegetable oils. Works well for my pointers. They are hard keepers and it keeps weight on them. I've heard cottage cheese will work well too but the lard is cheaper.

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:51 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:I use lard rather than the vegetable oils. Works well for my pointers. They are hard keepers and it keeps weight on them. I've heard cottage cheese will work well too but the lard is cheaper.

It's infinitely healthier too. As long as you aren't using the shelf stable lard thats hydrogenated. That's cancer in a box.

Pastured pork fat has an Omega 6 to Omega 3 balance nearly comparable to salmon! Dairy is for calves anyway.

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:06 am

Dairy products promote lactic acid build up. I would avoid dairy during times of increased activity.

pointerinjeep · Post by **pointerinjeep** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:02 am

The other great thing about pork fat is that much of it is medium-chain so like coconut oil it is released right into the bloodstream and stored in the liver. It is really hard to beat pork fat for a canine.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:18 am

pointerinjeep wrote:The other great thing about pork fat is that much of it is medium-chain so like coconut oil it is released right into the bloodstream and stored in the liver. It is really hard to beat pork fat for a canine.

Stored in the liver? Seems that could be a way to die real young. Where was the research done and could you post their reports.

Ezzy

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:27 am

ezzy
how much canola oil would you give a 55 pound skinny dog?

pointerinjeep · Post by **pointerinjeep** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:37 am

There is no need to go into all the chemistry but MCT's reach the bloodstream throught the portal vein and are quickly and easily absorbed.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:39 am

i wouldnt be afraid to go ahead and take a fecal sample to your vet, or just give him a good all purpose de-wormer, just to be sure your not dealing with some type of parasite. i agree it would be farther down on the list given the circumstances of his weight loss, but it cant hurt to double check. I know I have been fooled before by relying on the circumstances, instead of just going ahead and doing the diagnostic work.

Wlfdg wrote: Corn contains lectins which block the release of leptins which causes overeating which causes the development of triglycerides which causes obesity which causes disease is scientific fact! Along with all of the other facts in that paper.

doesnt this dog need a little of that right now?? i mean, he wants him to gain some weight, right??

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:58 pm

dog dr wrote:
Wlfdg wrote: Corn contains lectins which block the release of leptins which causes overeating which causes the development of triglycerides which causes obesity which causes disease is scientific fact! Along with all of the other facts in that paper.
doesnt this dog need a little of that right now?? i mean, he wants him to gain some weight, right??

How can gaining extra sub-cutaneous fat be a good thing. It's fine for bear going into hibernation. Not for a working endurance athlete. Fat can't move itself. Muscle has to move it. Plus everything else. Gaining weight should be muscle weight. It's more efficient.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:01 pm

Wlfdg wrote:
dog dr wrote:
Wlfdg wrote: Corn contains lectins which block the release of leptins which causes overeating which causes the development of triglycerides which causes obesity which causes disease is scientific fact! Along with all of the other facts in that paper.
doesnt this dog need a little of that right now?? i mean, he wants him to gain some weight, right??
How can gaining extra sub-cutaneous fat be a good thing. It's fine for bear going into hibernation. Not for a working endurance athlete. Fat can't move itself. Muscle has to move it. Plus everything else. Gaining weight should be muscle weight. It's more efficient.

Fat storage is nothing more than stored energy. Thats true whether you are awake or asleep. And is there to use in either case also.

Ezzy

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:39 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Fat storage is nothing more than stored energy. Thats true whether you are awake or asleep. And is there to use in either case also.

Ezzy

In order to to access it the body needs to be in ketosis. The body can not go into ketosis if there is an ample supply of carbohydrates aka glycogen. So unless the body is in ketosis sub-cutaneous adipose tissue
is just excess baggage at best. It will require energy to move it while not contributing to the effort. How ever many pounds it weighs, it's like carrying that much relative weight around in your pockets. So 5 lbs. additional weight on a normally 50 lb. dog is like 15 lbs. additional weight on a normally 200lb. man. It's dead weight!

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:16 pm

My dogs perform better when they have a little fat on them. They hunt harder, longer, and find more birds when they have enough fat to barely see their ribs.

How long does the glycogen in their muscles last, and how long does it take to replenish it? IMO, a healthy well conditioned dogs needs fat to keep it going when the glycogen is gone.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:21 pm

Wlfdg wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Fat storage is nothing more than stored energy. Thats true whether you are awake or asleep. And is there to use in either case also.

Ezzy
In order to to access it the body needs to be in ketosis. The body can not go into ketosis if there is an ample supply of carbohydrates aka glycogen. So unless the body is in ketosis sub-cutaneous adipose tissue
is just excess baggage at best. It will require energy to move it while not contributing to the effort. How ever many pounds it weighs, it's like carrying that much relative weight around in your pockets. So 5 lbs. additional weight on a normally 50 lb. dog is like 15 lbs. additional weight on a normally 200lb. man. It's dead weight!

I think you are working hard to say that animal nutrition is the same as human and it just doesn't work quite that way.

Ezzy

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Wlfdg wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Fat storage is nothing more than stored energy. Thats true whether you are awake or asleep. And is there to use in either case also.

Ezzy
In order to to access it the body needs to be in ketosis. The body can not go into ketosis if there is an ample supply of carbohydrates aka glycogen. So unless the body is in ketosis sub-cutaneous adipose tissue
is just excess baggage at best. It will require energy to move it while not contributing to the effort. How ever many pounds it weighs, it's like carrying that much relative weight around in your pockets. So 5 lbs. additional weight on a normally 50 lb. dog is like 15 lbs. additional weight on a normally 200lb. man. It's dead weight!
I think you are working hard to say that animal nutrition is the same as human and it just doesn't work quite that way.

Ezzy

It's basically the same chemistry and it requires the same functions. Dogs are more efficient fat burners. All the more reason NOT to feed them grains! Dogs still suffer from the same diseases that humans do from grains and triglycerides. Stored bodyfat is still dead weight. Excess baggage. It does work that way.

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:21 pm

wannabe wrote:My dogs perform better when they have a little fat on them. They hunt harder, longer, and find more birds when they have enough fat to barely see their ribs.

How long does the glycogen in their muscles last, and how long does it take to replenish it? IMO, a healthy well conditioned dogs needs fat to keep it going when the glycogen is gone.

Glycogen is for sprinting. Fat is for endurance. Fat has more than twice the available energy than sugar does. Plus it burns slower. Dietary fat is a better source for this than stored fat as it doesn't have to go through the extra process of being liberated. It is already in the bloodstream. Refined oils are inferior sources to animals fats. Dogs are wolves and wolves are dogs. Canis Lupus Familiaris.

Glycogen stores only last 2-5min. of intense sprinting. Dogs can only replenish up 65% of pre-exercise glycogen levels within 24hrs.

A dog is better off lean and fed suet from free range cattle than being fat and fed corn. Efficient athleticism is the same whether the athlete has 2 legs or 4.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:53 pm

What about Sumo wrestlers? They are athletes. Are they better off lean than fat? Even in the world's strongest man competitions those guys have some fat on them. They are not completely wiry with no body fat. Professional arm wrestlers have some fat on them, the good ones anyway. I guess the word "athlete" can be construed different ways by different people. I personally like my pointers without their ribs being visible, some people like their dog's ribs to show visibly. Depends on what you are happy with and what you want your dog to look like. I have my dogs on a self feeder. A 35 gallon plastic drum made into a self feeder and they maintain their own weight quite nicely even through hunting season and training hard during the hot summers.

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:29 am

Those guys aren't endurance athletes. Bird dogs are asked to run for very long periods. Hours on end even. Just like endurance sleddogs. Not the sprinters.
There is preference and there is performance. Just because it is how you have always done it doesn't make optimal.

For years coaches told athletes not to lift weights. Now we know that not lifting was really ignorant advice. Even golfers lift weights now.

It's not rocket science. Sub-cutaneous and intra-muscular fat is baggage. Dietary fat is fuel. Super fuel!

Corn is poison!

pointerinjeep · Post by **pointerinjeep** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:28 am

He is referring to a process called 'fat adaptation'. There is little question that energy from dietary fat is superior to energy from carbohydrates for a dog. If you look at some of the higher-end supplements you will see that in addition to protein, fat is abundant and tends to be medium-chain fats like pork fat & coconut oil. There is good reason for this because they act and resemble carbs in many ways.

No matter what commercial diet you feed, it would be smart to supplement fats that don't require pancreatic enzymes for digestion. There is no way in heck that sprayed on poultry fat will do the job for a dog that is trained as hard as people on the forum attest. Has anyone ever wondered why most kibbles seem to stop at 20% fat? The answer has nothing to do with nutrition rather it is all about production, unless the maker uses a vacuum infusion process over spraying. There are a few sled dog foods that use this process.

The two safest fats to supplement in my opinion are raw pork fat which butchers give away and coconut oil, which is relatively cheap and very stable. Fish oil should also be given at 1000 mgs per 30lbs of body weight. Olive and sunflower oil are perhaps the best its for weight gain and safe to feed. Some like Canola oil but frankly since there are many choices a frankestein oil like that which is not permitted in baby food is off my list. I don't personally think its dangerous to an adult dog but olive oil has been used since the beginning of time with no reports of side effects, also it has a bitter taste dogs like. The Canadian government has spent a lot of time and money distancing modern Canola (which stands for Canadian Oil) from its toxic cousin.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:42 am

Wonder why practically every animal in the world eats corn when its available? Maybe they need to be taught this new dietary procedure and forget what we all have learned over the years in our studies and what nature has provided for them. Maybe that is why it is too wet to harvest the corn this year. Its just natures way of saving our animals and us.

Ezzy

Wlfdg · Post by **Wlfdg** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:08 am

ezzy333 wrote:Wonder why practically every animal in the world eats corn when its available? Maybe they need to be taught this new dietary procedure and forget what we all have learned over the years in our studies and what nature has provided for them. Maybe that is why it is too wet to harvest the corn this year. Its just natures way of saving our animals and us.

Ezzy

Nature hasn't provided them with corn? Man has! Corn is indigenous to one place on the planet and it is planted everywhere else. Remember, in 1491 everyone knew the world was flat.
Animals eat corn when the have no alternative. Read the information in the paper I posted. Read the detrimental effects corn has. Once corn is consumed the protein lectin prevents the release of the hormone leptin. This chemical reaction prevents the consumer from stopping consumption. Like an a opiate.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:09 am

pointerinjeep wrote:He is referring to a process called 'fat adaptation'. There is little question that energy from dietary fat is superior to energy from carbohydrates for a dog. If you look at some of the higher-end supplements you will see that in addition to protein, fat is abundant and tends to be medium-chain fats like pork fat & coconut oil. There is good reason for this because they act and resemble carbs in many ways.

No matter what commercial diet you feed, it would be smart to supplement fats that don't require pancreatic enzymes for digestion. There is no way in heck that sprayed on poultry fat will do the job for a dog that is trained as hard as people on the forum attest. Has anyone ever wondered why most kibbles seem to stop at 20% fat? The answer has nothing to do with nutrition rather it is all about production, unless the maker uses a vacuum infusion process over spraying. There are a few sled dog foods that use this process.

The two safest fats to supplement in my opinion are raw pork fat which butchers give away and coconut oil, which is relatively cheap and very stable. Fish oil should also be given at 1000 mgs per 30lbs of body weight. Olive and sunflower oil are perhaps the best its for weight gain and safe to feed. Some like Canola oil but frankly since there are many choices a frankestein oil like that which is not permitted in baby food is off my list. I don't personally think its dangerous to an adult dog but olive oil has been used since the beginning of time with no reports of side effects, also it has a bitter taste dogs like. The Canadian government has spent a lot of time and money distancing modern Canola (which stands for Canadian Oil) from its toxic cousin.

The quote below is from a degreed nutritionist, albeit a human one, but someone is trying to say it makes no difference, that all animal nutrition is the same. I am assuming the toxic cousin you are talking about is rape, which Canola is a variety of, that had higher levels of erucic acid which was a concern for human consumption but never for other animals. Rape is just another plant in the same family as cabbage, broccoli, and collard greens, plus many more we all eat. We have used rape for early hog pasture for years and now we include it in many of the deer feed mixtures .

The canola plant was developed by natural cross-breeding from the rapeseed plant in the early 1970s. Canola oil is produced from canola plants, not rapeseed plants.

Canola plants have very low levels of erucic acid. According to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), canola oil contains erucic acid levels in the range of 0.3 percent to 1.2 percent. This is well below the 2 percent limit set by the FDA.

Canola oil is very low in saturated fat and has a very high proportion of monounsaturated fat. So, it's a healthy and safe choice when it comes to oils.

You are giving us a lot of information but can you tie it in to the dog losing weight on a high performance food? That is the subject that was asked about.

Ezzy

pointerinjeep · Post by **pointerinjeep** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:46 am

I simply stated its not my choice and didn't think it was harmful to an adult dog. However, it is still not permitted in baby food or formula because of the risk of erucic acid buid-up in heart tissue. Clearly this is not an issue for livestock because livestock has a commercially decided life span.

You are overreacting to what I stated.

pointerinjeep · Post by **pointerinjeep** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:55 am

I did, I suggested Olive Oil because it is known to add weight because it is a long-chain fat.

dugger13 · Post by **dugger13** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:51 pm

can someone tell me how much oil to start with if i want to add weight to my dog. Currently the dog is around 60 pounds and all ribs are showing.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:12 pm

dugger13 wrote:can someone tell me how much oil to start with if i want to add weight to my dog. Currently the dog is around 60 pounds and all ribs are showing.

I have supplemented with a tablespoon or two of corn oil, but I had better luck with an ounce or two of lamb/goat milk replacer. Supplement gradually so you don't screw up your dog's gut.