Corn Based Feed And The Alternatives

[Ditch__Parrot]

How about you guys hash it out here instead of hijacking every thread that has anything to do with dog food.
Opinions are fine but please refrain from presenting them as fact.

[ezzy333]

My face is red with embarrassment. Good call

Ezzy

[Ayres]

Sadie - good call on the thread splitting. This topic really does need its own thread because of its importance.

However, when Exceed is no longer on the store shelves people who feed it begin looking for an alternative food for their dogs. That's how the two subjects are related and why the morph into the quality feed discussion is/was relevant in the other thread. Believe me, if the two were completely unrelated and the discussion had really become a topic hijack, we would have put a stop to it.

About the only thing that is spot on point that anyone can add to the other thread is 1) whether Exceed is still on the shelves in your location (which doesn't do the OP any good anyway) or 2) whether someone has some facts about why it was pulled and if it will be coming back. Without that information, again, people will be starting to look to feeding alternatives - which is where the discussion had been leading.

[mcbosco]

Ok, here is one:

http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/Maint_Stress5.htm
http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/M ... Ingred.htm

Pros: Been on the market for about 30 years, improved several times over the years, poop so small you will think it is hiding in there somewhere, great coats, great energy, dogs love it, they dont stretch or drink like after they have eaten kibble, no need to supplement, efficacy backed by 20 year, 2000 dog study on German Shepards, almost everyone I have recommended it to still feeds it, company loves breeders and goes out of its way to service them, many differrent mixes, very good nutrient profile for a working dog, no one will believe that a setter or brittany can look and perform so great on 1 cup, no fillers unless you count rice, meat, meat, meat!!! fat, fat, fat !!!

Cons: Sticker Shock until you actually see that a 48lb box will last at least three months (for a 50lb dog), hard to locate in some areas, takes a good week for the dog to get used to it, confusing product line but you have me and Clay to ask!!!, smells fishy, your friends will laugh at you at the next NAVHDA BBQ because its a "show food" but you know better

[slistoe]

I was at a seminar with a well known and very successful pro field trialer/trainer at about the time that this anti-corn sentiment was starting. He was asked for his opinion about what kinds of food were good. He replied that he had no specific recommendations about a particular brand, but he most certainly wanted one with lots of corn. It was his opinion that dogs on a higher corn diet would go harder for longer than dogs on anything else. Especially in the heat.

What I have found is that it is far easier to keep a dogs coat in soft, shiny condition with a feed that has corn rather than one that has rice as the main grain product. Probably has something to do with the oils that are in it. I also have found that feeds using chicken by product fuel a dog much better than those advertising whole chicken. Any chicken based feed powers a dog better than those using beef and especially lamb. Chicken and corn seem to be the cheapest sources of necessary nutrients for a dog. So, unless your dog has a clinically diagnosed allergy to either the corn or the chicken there would be no compelling reason to take them off of a diet based on such and a few compelling reasons to put them on it - all scare mongering tactics from the naturopaths aside.

[brdhntr]

I was at a seminar with a well known and very successful pro field trialer/trainer at about the time that this anti-corn sentiment was starting. He was asked for his opinion about what kinds of food were good. He replied that he had no specific recommendations about a particular brand, but he most certainly wanted one with lots of corn. It was his opinion that dogs on a higher corn diet would go harder for longer than dogs on anything else. Especially in the heat.

What I have found is that it is far easier to keep a dogs coat in soft, shiny condition with a feed that has corn rather than one that has rice as the main grain product. Probably has something to do with the oils that are in it. I also have found that feeds using chicken by product fuel a dog much better than those advertising whole chicken. Any chicken based feed powers a dog better than those using beef and especially lamb. Chicken and corn seem to be the cheapest sources of necessary nutrients for a dog. So, unless your dog has a clinically diagnosed allergy to either the corn or the chicken there would be no compelling reason to take them off of a diet based on such and a few compelling reasons to put them on it - all scare mongering tactics from the naturopaths aside.

Is naturopath a derogatory term for someone with a scientific understanding of the basics of digestion, and is scare mongering defined as sharing those scientific facts? If so count me in. Also what make a field trialer a nutrition expert?

[mcbosco]

Corn is in dog food for several reasons and not one has to do with nutrition, not one. It is solely a function of agricultural interests, certain industry requirements and production issues. It is cheap and abundant - it is a totally rationalized ingredient. Due to production issues, it is very hard to extrude kibble with high levels of crude protein solely from animal meals, likewise its very hard to get fat levels above 20% by spraying. So given the corn supply, proximity to the feed mills and kibble production issues, corn is the go to grain, soy follows it. It gets freakier with corn gluten, which is even more rationalized as a dog food ingredient.

That is one of the reasons why Abady is so good, it is not kibble, so meat can dominate protein and fat is mixed in rather than sprayed. It is also not cooked all together like kibbles.

Anyway, corn and corn gluten are essentially accident ingredients in dog food. There are better sources of carbs than corn and far better protein sources than corn or corn gluten.

Personally, I don't think many dogs are allergic in the traditional sense to ingredients in dog foods, rather certain ingredients make them vulnerable to things like yeast infections, cancer, bloat, dry skin, bad teeth, parasites, etc. Corn, soy and other grains in large amounts in my opinion break the dog down over time.

[slistoe]

Also what make a field trialer a nutrition expert?

He was most certainly an expert on what effect nutrition has on performance.

[slistoe]

Corn is in dog food for several reasons and not one has to do with nutrition, not one.

Now that would actually be funny if it wasn't so stupidly scary. Someone might actually believe you.

[slistoe]

My apologies for using the term naturopath. It targets some folks that should not have been targeted at all. A more apropo statement would be voodoo "scientists".

[birddogger]

[qIs naturopath a derogatory term for someone with a scientific understanding of the basics of digestion, and is scare mongering defined as sharing those scientific facts? If so count me in. Also what make a field trialer a nutrition expert?[/quote]
Why would you have to be a nutrition expert to know what has worked for your dogs for years!

[big steve46]

Corn is in dog food for several reasons and not one has to do with nutrition, not one. It is solely a function of agricultural interests, certain industry requirements and production issues. It is cheap and abundant - it is a totally rationalized ingredient. Due to production issues, it is very hard to extrude kibble with high levels of crude protein solely from animal meals, likewise its very hard to get fat levels above 20% by spraying. So given the corn supply, proximity to the feed mills and kibble production issues, corn is the go to grain, soy follows it. It gets freakier with corn gluten, which is even more rationalized as a dog food ingredient.

That is one of the reasons why Abady is so good, it is not kibble, so meat can dominate protein and fat is mixed in rather than sprayed. It is also not cooked all together like kibbles.

Anyway, corn and corn gluten are essentially accident ingredients in dog food. There are better sources of carbs than corn and far better protein sources than corn or corn gluten.

Personally, I don't think many dogs are allergic in the traditional sense to ingredients in dog foods, rather certain ingredients make them vulnerable to things like yeast infections, cancer, bloat, dry skin, bad teeth, parasites, etc. Corn, soy and other grains in large amounts in my opinion break the dog down over time.

There are more dogs that are probably sensitive to certain ingredients and corn could be one, and those sensitivities could be very subtle, and they could predispose to other conditions. These are not true allergies which may explain why they are not understood or diagnosed. Generally though, I do feel that a well ground corn is a good source of carbohydrate for most dogs.

In a lighter vein, why would you want to only allow a full-grown dog of say 50 lbs one cup of high quality food a day? You are denying the dog the JOY of gobbling down three cups a day!

[Duane M]

Also what make a field trialer a nutrition expert?

He was most certainly an expert on what effect nutrition has on performance.

Scott the only problem with that is the amount of performance. Unless this person has competed, finished and won several multi hour events his experience relates mainly to his needs, short term all out. The average hunter needs sustained performance that goes for hours on end and many, many time in tougher conditions than FTs measure, I've seen dogs, champions mind you, who quit on grounds I have seen average hunting and guide dogs not blink at. Just like a sprinter is probably not the best source of advice for a tri athlete an FT competitor may well not be the best for a person who's dogs are on the ground for many hours a day. The best would be a musher or hound guy, I have never talked to a musher who valued corn, not saying I have sampled tons either, but have known plenty of hound guys and honestly they feed what many would not. Cheaper feeds are common, thats where I discovered Diamond High Energy was a big time B&T breeder here and remember lots of hounds flat do not live as long as bird dogs do. Not often you see an 8 year old coonhound still goin hard but real common to see that in bird dogs.

I have made my stance known on corn and just flat aint gonna argue it, but I know what I have found works best for me as well as what my customers have liked in their dogs after being on my feed for 1-3 months.

[ezzy333]

Dogs like to feel full just like we do or any other animal. It doesn't make any sense to try and limit a dog to one cup. I have a dog that is only getting a little over a cup a day and she is starved all of the time but if you allow her she will get fat as a pig. The GI tract needs fiber annd a certai volume to stay healthy and ther sure isn;t much advantage in seeing how hungry we can keep a dog.

We found out in feeding trials that corn was the best source of carbs that we could find for dogs plus it is a natural feed that they will search out and eat when given the chance. We are hearing all of the nutrionist on this board that they know what a dog needs and doesn't need, they know why an ingredient is included in the feed, and yet they have never offered to tell us their qualifications or have not showed us one peice of evidence that the kibble that we all feed is harmful to our dogs. And yet they continue the same story over and over and they have heard it so often that it seems they are even believeing it now. You would think that with such a superior feed on the market that is cheaper than any other to use that it just might be the feed that everyone would be using. Instead it remains a minor brand without a single user that I have seen feeding it to their trial dogs. I think it makes sense to stick with what brought you to the party. Or as they say, don't fix it if it isn't broken.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

I was at a seminar with a well known and very successful pro field trialer/trainer at about the time that this anti-corn sentiment was starting. He was asked for his opinion about what kinds of food were good. He replied that he had no specific recommendations about a particular brand, but he most certainly wanted one with lots of corn. It was his opinion that dogs on a higher corn diet would go harder for longer than dogs on anything else. Especially in the heat.

What I have found is that it is far easier to keep a dogs coat in soft, shiny condition with a feed that has corn rather than one that has rice as the main grain product. Probably has something to do with the oils that are in it. I also have found that feeds using chicken by product fuel a dog much better than those advertising whole chicken. Any chicken based feed powers a dog better than those using beef and especially lamb. Chicken and corn seem to be the cheapest sources of necessary nutrients for a dog. So, unless your dog has a clinically diagnosed allergy to either the corn or the chicken there would be no compelling reason to take them off of a diet based on such and a few compelling reasons to put them on it - all scare mongering tactics from the naturopaths aside.

This is pretty much what every feeding trial has shown also. You can't replace the corn without using several ingredients and then digestibility tends to get poorer. And today we have so many different corns available that can be used to fill a hole in the formula.

Ezzy

[tommyboy72]

mcbosco forgive me if I am wrong but I read on one of the other posts that you live in New Jersey, work in New York City, plan to travel to Vermont for vacation or hunting and also own a house in Florida and from what I can gather you have a very lucrative job. I do not mean to knock you but much of the time on the forum especially when it comes to feed discussions you remind me a lot of a politician. You argue the higher end price of things such as feeding expensive dog food or feeding naturally and how good it is for the dogs and how everyone else should also feed this way and if we don't then we are dumb. Much like a politician it seems that you have or come from money which lord knows I wish I did as well but some of us are just simple folk that love hunting and dogs and are just trying to get by from day to day or check to check. Not all of us come from your means and can afford to feed like you do. Perhaps you should take this into consideration before telling us country folk how dumb we are for feeding kibble or for feeding an inexpensive kibble. If you would ever care to travel out to the Oklahoma Panhandle I am more than willing to take you out for a quail or pheasant hunt totally free of charge and put your dog or dogs up against mine and no matter what you feed your dog or dogs I bet yours give up before mine do. Some dogs actually excel when fed more inexpensive feed. Mine did. I tried all of the medium and even some of the higher priced feeds and never seemed to find a feed that would keep weight on them, not give them diarrhea, and something I did not have to buy at least a hundred pounds a month of. I feed about 70 lbs. of very inexpensive feed per month at a cost of $26 for the feed and another $8 for a tub of lard to add over the food every night for a grand total of a whopping $34 a month to feed 3 adult dogs, one of which is about to have pups in a week or so and all of them are health and happy and are on an automatic feeder so the eat what they want and maintain their own weight. Once again, you have an open invitation to hunt with me anytime and I will put my poorly fed pointers and setter up against any of your dogs and see whose is still hunting after a long day of chasing blue quail through cactus, yucca, mesquite and sand burrs or pheasant through waist high CRP grass ,and I am 6' 3" tall, that is so thick you can barely walk through it. By the way I did spend an additional $3.63 for a 36 pack of eggs to put over the pregnant females food with the shells to give her some extra calcium for milk production until she has the litter and I can put her on calcium supplement pills. I guess you can factor that in if you want as well. For anyone who was curious that comes out to about 42 cents a day per dog to feed them.

[live4point]

Most dog food is made out of the junk thats left over from grains that isn't much good for anything else,a dog wouldn't touch the crap if animal fat [meat grease] wasn't added. It seems to work,I myself dont feed super expensive dog food,but I dont buy all this b.s. as to how great these common dog foods are.It is a money making bussiness sellin this stuff as dog feed that's not good for much and is cheap,therefore high profit.Like I said,it seems to work,as a lot of dogs are living on it,but fill your dogs bowl up full of turds,cover it with bacon grease and rover will gulp it all down too.

[mcbosco]

Ezzy you reference to Abady as minor brand is actually a testimony to its quality, most if not all "minor" brands in any product category are of better quality. Abady happens to be a rare one in that it actually doesn't cost more. That formula that I provided a link for has been around far longer than any premium dog food on the market. Is there one brand that has been independently tested for 20 years on 2,000 dogs by the same organization?

It remains a minor brand out of choice mostly. Just recently Abady ended its relationship with WagginTails.com because WT was acquired by a company with a cheap house brand that also sells soda, candy and lawn and garden supplies. For some companies its not always about the money.

[mcbosco]

mcbosco forgive me if I am wrong but I read on one of the other posts that you live in New Jersey, work in New York City, plan to travel to Vermont for vacation or hunting and also own a house in Florida and from what I can gather you have a very lucrative job. I do not mean to knock you but much of the time on the forum especially when it comes to feed discussions you remind me a lot of a politician. You argue the higher end price of things such as feeding expensive dog food or feeding naturally and how good it is for the dogs and how everyone else should also feed this way and if we don't then we are dumb. Much like a politician it seems that you have or come from money which lord knows I wish I did as well but some of us are just simple folk that love hunting and dogs and are just trying to get by from day to day or check to check. Not all of us come from your means and can afford to feed like you do. Perhaps you should take this into consideration before telling us country folk how dumb we are for feeding kibble or for feeding an inexpensive kibble. If you would ever care to travel out to the Oklahoma Panhandle I am more than willing to take you out for a quail or pheasant hunt totally free of charge and put your dog or dogs up against mine and no matter what you feed your dog or dogs I bet yours give up before mine do. Some dogs actually excel when fed more inexpensive feed. Mine did. I tried all of the medium and even some of the higher priced feeds and never seemed to find a feed that would keep weight on them, not give them diarrhea, and something I did not have to buy at least a hundred pounds a month of. I feed about 70 lbs. of very inexpensive feed per month at a cost of $26 for the feed and another $8 for a tub of lard to add over the food every night for a grand total of a whopping $34 a month to feed 3 adult dogs, one of which is about to have pups in a week or so and all of them are health and happy and are on an automatic feeder so the eat what they want and maintain their own weight. Once again, you have an open invitation to hunt with me anytime and I will put my poorly fed pointers and setter up against any of your dogs and see whose is still hunting after a long day of chasing blue quail through cactus, yucca, mesquite and sand burrs or pheasant through waist high CRP grass ,and I am 6' 3" tall, that is so thick you can barely walk through it. By the way I did spend an additional $3.63 for a 36 pack of eggs to put over the pregnant females food with the shells to give her some extra calcium for milk production until she has the litter and I can put her on calcium supplement pills. I guess you can factor that in if you want as well. For anyone who was curious that comes out to about 42 cents a day per dog to feed them.

[mcbosco]

"bleep" PC, sorry for just the quote and no response, OK maybe I will come, but Mickey will stay home, too hard to travel with a dog that size...

[3Britts]

"bleep" PC, sorry for just the quote and no response, OK maybe I will come, but Mickey will stay home, too hard to travel with a dog that size...

Really, I travel with three.

[tommyboy72]

The door is always open at my house when you get time.

[ezzy333]

"bleep" PC, sorry for just the quote and no response, OK maybe I will come, but Mickey will stay home, too hard to travel with a dog that size...

Really, I travel with three.

Itravel with three also but it sounds like you better find room for four.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

If can get the company plane I will bring him

[tommyboy72]

Ha ha closest airport is 110 miles from here but ok. I live so far out in the middle of nowhere it isn't even funny. The town I live in is 1200 people and the nearest town of any size is 20 miles away, a town of about 10,000 mostly hispanic residents. I would love for you to come on out and hunt though. It would be a pleasure to watch you and your dog work out here on the open plains.

[mcbosco]

he takes his time

[ezzy333]

Ha ha closest airport is 110 miles from here but ok. I live so far out in the middle of nowhere it isn't even funny. The town I live in is 1200 people and the nearest town of any size is 20 miles away, a town of about 10,000 mostly hispanic residents. I would love for you to come on out and hunt though. It would be a pleasure to watch you and your dog work out here on the open plains.

Most of them are so slow it takes all dy to see them hunt. They are a big s l o w dog which is what has kept them from being popular in this country. I don't think you can slow your pointers down enough to hunt with a Spinone. But it would be good to see him in that setting. Hope they make it.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

well he is not that slow, good for people that like to the smell the roses while out in the field and dont view the hunt as a bird count.

[3Britts]

"bleep" PC, sorry for just the quote and no response, OK maybe I will come, but Mickey will stay home, too hard to travel with a dog that size...

Really, I travel with three.

Itravel with three also but it sounds like you better find room for four.

Ezzy

Oh, I forgot. I will be traveling with four. And just think, I just wanted one good dog.
Darn trialers, what did you do to me?

[3Britts]

well he is not that slow, good for people that like to the smell the roses while out in the field and dont view the hunt as a bird count.

I have a friend who hunts behind a slow dog. It is a perfect fit. Dog hunts so slow that the other dogs have already found the birds and the hunters have already shot them all. Oh, did I mention that he can't hit a bird awing anyway?

[tommyboy72]

Well I can bring my 8 year old spayed setter. She put on some weight after being spayed and has slowed down a bit with age. She is still a heck of a bird dog though. Sounds like those 2 dogs would compliment each other nicely.

[claybuster_aa]

Dogs like to feel full just like we do or any other animal. It doesn't make any sense to try and limit a dog to one cup. I have a dog that is only getting a little over a cup a day and she is starved all of the time but if you allow her she will get fat as a pig. ...Ezzy

Ezzy, I free feed my dog. She eats whenever she is hungry. I don't limit or restrict feed. I say about 1 cup a day because that is probably pretty close when it all averages out, but feeding levels can fluctuate at different times during the year. She may eat 2 cups per day during higher stress. The dog is going to eat until the caloric intake need is satisfied. At 800 cals per cup, they eat less than the dogs an 350-400 per cup. That is only logical. I go through a box every 3 months and it has been that way going on 7 years.

[ezzy333]

Clay,

My male will do that too but he just doesn't have as much appetite as the female. They both eat the same feed and get the same exercise. I have had dogs that just don't need much or at least don't want much and those are the ones i have had to add oil to their feed to help get weight on them. But I still don't want to limit a dog that wants more anymore than I have to. I have often added fiber to their diet to help satisfy their hunger and it seems to work. You have to remember their is no way any of us including our dogs can tell what the caloric makeup of a feed is till well after we have finished eating. and we eat to satisfy our appetite which is different in every individual.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

Clay,
My male will do that too but he just doesn't have as much appetite as the female. They both eat the same feed and get the same exercise. I have had dogs that just don't need much or at least don't want much and those are the ones i have had to add oil to their feed to help get weight on them. But I still don't want to limit a dog that wants more anymore than I have to. I have often added fiber to their diet to help satisfy their hunger and it seems to work. You have to remember their is no way any of us including our dogs can tell what the caloric makeup of a feed is till well after we have finished eating. and we eat to satisfy our appetite which is different in every individual.
Ezzy

Makes sense because despite getting the same feed and exercise, they are also individuals. And right now their caloric intake maybe different, but by the end of the day they get what they each need.

[ezzy333]

As long as I limit the feed for the female and enhance the feed for the male. Given that I do not have a problem but I do need to watch every one of the dogs to make sure they are getting what they need to hold the condition they need to compete and be healthy.

Ezzy

[alex0742]

I found this site intersting and seems to be a credible source of info.

http://www.consumersearch.com/dog-food/review

[ezzy333]

I found this site intersting and seems to be a credible source of info.

http://www.consumersearch.com/dog-food/review

Interesting but appears to be marketing tool as it talks about what some people think instead of any research results that in my mind have to the base of creditability.

Ezzzy

[mcbosco]

that is a "click site", as stated by ezzy its a marketing tool for advertisers.....

this is a good one, Mary Strauss is a noted resource:

http://www.dogaware.com/

Mary lists various alternatives so its more of a reference site....I like that she lists national and regional suppliers of food.