Need New Dog Food

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Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Wed May 27, 2009 7:59 am

We have an extremely active 2 year old male German Shorthaired Pointer named Zio who needs to gain a little weight. We have always been concerned that he isn't eating enough to maintain his high energy level, and this week's visit to the vet for his scheduled shots kind of confirmed it. Although he's healthy & happy, he's lost a pound since his last visit in November... something he really didn't need to do. Right now he's at 56 pounds and we'd all like to see him at least at 60.

We had him on Purina Pro Plan (shreded blend) Lamb & Rice, but about 2 months ago, on the advice of a trainer with whom he was boarding, we switched him to Exceed Chicken. We did this because the trainer told us that as an active, working hunter, he needed this extra protein. (Also, it was what he feeds his Gordon Setters.)

During the day he'll get as many carrots as he wants, and a "Greenie". As a training reward during the day he may get some Iams Puppy biscuits (easy to break up into training-treat-size & he'll do anything for them ). Also, since he has seasonal allergies, at this time of the year he'll get cheese a couple of times a day to hide the pills.

Please, no lectures on his current food. We know it's not working for him, and want to change it. However, we ARE open to suggestions on what commercial product to feed this very active, high-energy hunting dog that is good for him as well as reasonably priced.

Thanks!
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed May 27, 2009 8:13 am

My approach has always been if a dog needs to gain weight I feed a little more or add a little bit of oil or fat. I have never switched feed. And the opposite is true more often it seems and I have to cut back the feed to keep them on the thin side. In your case I would do away with the carrots and other snacks and let him eat the feed you are feeding which is a good one. I sure wouldn't consider switching feeds or even say a feed isn't working when the dog is healthy, extremely active, full of energy, and is only a couple of pounds under the weight you would prefer.

I'll bet as he gets older you will see him put on weight and you will have to reduce the amount to keep the weight off.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Wed May 27, 2009 3:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:My approach has always been if a dog needs to gain weight I feed a little more or add a little bit of oil or fat. I have never switched feed. And the opposite is true more often it seems and I have to cut back the feed to keep them on the thin side. In your case I would do away with the carrots and other snacks and let him eat the feed you are feeding which is a good one. I sure wouldn't consider switching feeds or even say a feed isn't working when the dog is healthy, extremely active, full of energy, and is only a couple of pounds under the weight you would prefer.

I'll bet as he gets older you will see him put on weight and you will have to reduce the amount to keep the weight off.

Ezzy
Frankly, if it were as easy as giving him more food, I wouldn't have bothered posting anything. However, just doesn't seem interested in this food. Since he's so active we have no qualms about putting down a full bowl, but more times than not, he only eats about 1/2 of it. Sometimes he'll eat the rest of it at night, but not always. So we're looking for something better to try.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by grousewoods » Wed May 27, 2009 3:04 pm

FYI check out the" Soild Gold" line of food, you can go to there web site and I will let you make up your own mined. I just seen your post about not eating all his food at once I would then take the food away from him for the day and see what happens the next he will learn that when the food is down i better eat or it will be gone,he will learn to eat.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MikeB » Wed May 27, 2009 5:11 pm

In my many years of expereince, many dogs can gain weight eating more food like Ezzy said but there are those that no matter what you feed them or how much you feed them they would not gain weight but just get sloppy stools from to much food.

For those dogs they need a digestive enzyme to help them digest food better. You will feed less and they will gain the weight. There are several excellent products to choose from. See web sites at bottom.

I have used PROZYME for many years with excellent results.

A few years ago with a new high energy working dog I tried Animal Naturals Show Stopper supplement. This is a multi purpose All In One, highly digestible fat and protein supplement for feeding the hard to keep energy burners for the best skin and coat, maintaining proper weight, and great health.

Check out their site at K9 Power Products
Show Stopper - http://www.k9power.com/k9_show_stopper.php Super Fuel - http://www.k9power.com/k9_super_fuel.php

Prozyme - http://www.prozymeproducts.com

Nzymes - http://www.nzymes.com/pc/

Dogzymes Digestive Enzymes - http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/store/det ... ategory=30

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Scott Linden » Wed May 27, 2009 9:48 pm

We've had some luck simply adding olive oil to the feed, at our vet's suggestion (high quality fat). Not a panacea, but worth a try.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by YELLERDOGS » Thu May 28, 2009 4:50 am

How was his weight on the Pro Plan. We switched from Pro Plan when they went to the shredded blend, only because it didn't work for most of our dogs. We now feed Blue Buffalo. I too increase or decrease the amount to help with weight, but I have been in your place with two dogs that just wouldn't eat. The one can't get enough now that she is on Blue. The other had an allergy to Chicken. He is now on Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diet of Duck and Sweet Potato. It is for dogs with allergies, but low and behold both my picky eaters LOVE it! (I found my female sneaking into the others bowl one day) :D . I think you need to find something that he likes and then adjust the amount to help with the weight. Good Luck and let us know what happens!

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Thu May 28, 2009 10:48 am

grousewoods wrote:FYI check out the" Soild Gold" line of food, you can go to there web site and I will let you make up your own mined. I just seen your post about not eating all his food at once I would then take the food away from him for the day and see what happens the next he will learn that when the food is down i better eat or it will be gone,he will learn to eat.
When to feed the dog has never been a problem: he does not overeat. So leaving the food down for him is not the issue as he has never been the type of dog who eats all at once. He seems to adequately gauge his energy needs & eat accordingly: big hunting/running day = more food.

Right now we have a list of about 8 feeds, of which I've probably eliminated about 1/2 for various reasons (way overpriced, not enough protein, etc.) So thanks for the input on Solid Gold, which was on that list, BTW.
Last edited by SubMariner on Thu May 28, 2009 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Thu May 28, 2009 10:50 am

YELLERDOGS wrote:How was his weight on the Pro Plan. We switched from Pro Plan when they went to the shredded blend, only because it didn't work for most of our dogs. We now feed Blue Buffalo. I too increase or decrease the amount to help with weight, but I have been in your place with two dogs that just wouldn't eat. The one can't get enough now that she is on Blue. The other had an allergy to Chicken. He is now on Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diet of Duck and Sweet Potato. It is for dogs with allergies, but low and behold both my picky eaters LOVE it! (I found my female sneaking into the others bowl one day) :D . I think you need to find something that he likes and then adjust the amount to help with the weight. Good Luck and let us know what happens!
Steph, I can't recall specifics of his weight on Pro Plan, but suffice it to say that it was a similar problem. You're not the only one to talk about Blue Buffalo, and it seems to be worth checking out.

Thanks,
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Thu May 28, 2009 10:55 am

MikeB wrote:In my many years of expereince, many dogs can gain weight eating more food like Ezzy said but there are those that no matter what you feed them or how much you feed them they would not gain weight but just get sloppy stools from to much food.

For those dogs they need a digestive enzyme to help them digest food better. You will feed less and they will gain the weight. There are several excellent products to choose from. See web sites at bottom.

I have used PROZYME for many years with excellent results.

A few years ago with a new high energy working dog I tried Animal Naturals Show Stopper supplement. This is a multi purpose All In One, highly digestible fat and protein supplement for feeding the hard to keep energy burners for the best skin and coat, maintaining proper weight, and great health.

Check out their site at K9 Power Products
Show Stopper - http://www.k9power.com/k9_show_stopper.php Super Fuel - http://www.k9power.com/k9_super_fuel.php

Prozyme - http://www.prozymeproducts.com

Nzymes - http://www.nzymes.com/pc/

Dogzymes Digestive Enzymes - http://www.naturesfarmacy.com/store/det ... ategory=30
Mike, this would only be the 2nd food he's been on, so if switching him to one of the better blends (no grains) doesn't help, I will definitely keep this in mind.

Thanks,
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 28, 2009 10:58 am

The feeds without grain are normally lower calories. You need to go the other way if you need more energy. Less grain will normally run higher protien but less calories.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by phermes1 » Thu May 28, 2009 12:32 pm

We feed our pups Acana Prairie Harvest grainless and have had a great deal of success. They like it and they don't need a great deal of it to maintain weight. Main problem with it is that it can be tough to find.

Another suggestion that might make him interested in eating more - Olewo dried carrots. Do a search online and you'll find a supplier; I know it's sold through Amazon. Put in hot water, let it dissolve, then mix in with his food. It's not terribly expensive, it's good for them, and the dogs LOVE it.
It's also the best stuff we've found for fixing diarrhea, bar none. We originally got it because Patriot kept having recurring bouts of the runs, but once we added Olewo to his diet, it cleared right up. Worked far better than pumpkin or any of the other typical remedies.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Thu May 28, 2009 1:21 pm

phermes1 wrote:We feed our pups Acana Prairie Harvest grainless and have had a great deal of success. They like it and they don't need a great deal of it to maintain weight. Main problem with it is that it can be tough to find.

Another suggestion that might make him interested in eating more - Olewo dried carrots. Do a search online and you'll find a supplier; I know it's sold through Amazon. Put in hot water, let it dissolve, then mix in with his food. It's not terribly expensive, it's good for them, and the dogs LOVE it.
It's also the best stuff we've found for fixing diarrhea, bar none. We originally got it because Patriot kept having recurring bouts of the runs, but once we added Olewo to his diet, it cleared right up. Worked far better than pumpkin or any of the other typical remedies.
Hey, just because Patriot has beaten Zio a couple of times in FTs doesn't mean you know it all, Paul! JOKING!!!!! :lol: JOKING!!!!!

Hope you, Jen & "da family" are doing well?

BTW, Zio hit "the big 2.0" today....
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by phermes1 » Thu May 28, 2009 2:25 pm

Happy B-day to Zio. Hope to see him in a few trials next year!

We're working on breaking the pups now. TomBoy is picking it up very well. Patriot is being a bit stubborn. The big doofus. :)
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Chaingang » Thu May 28, 2009 9:42 pm

ezzy 333 wrote:The feeds without grain are normally lower calories. You need to go the other way if you need more energy. Less grain will normally run higher protein but less calories.

Ezzy

I'm becoming a believer in this line of thinking as well. I have experimented with a couple different grainless formulas that were advertised as high in protein and fat, but grainless and ended up having to feed 6 cups a day to just to maintain an acceptable weight and body shape. This may be fine for dogs who are not active or gain weight easily, but others it just may not be enough. It's almost like the doggie equivalent to the "Atkins" high protein, low carb diet. Granted my young GSP has a high metabolism, I've always had better luck with a performance feed that contains some cereal grains, which seemed to do a better job of maintaining weight with less fed.

submariner,

Unless your already feeding over 5 cups a day I would just increase the amount say a half a cup at a time for a while and see if that doesn't do the trick.
Last edited by Chaingang on Thu May 28, 2009 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MikeB » Thu May 28, 2009 9:54 pm

SubMariner,

If your serious about adding proper weight to your now 2 yr old GSP here is what I would do if I had him.

No more free feeding, it's not working for him. He must be taught to eat when YOU put the food bowl down. As a trainer myself I teach this to all my dogs, clients dogs too, as a means of establishing early "I AM PACK LEADER" to eat their food when the bowl hits the ground. I put the food out and the dog eats it in 10 minutes or less. That way you can get him to eat more food of what ever brand you choose. If his allergies are not food related then you may want to try the Pro Plan Performance. Any of the other Pro Plan foods will be less calories per cup.
ENHANCE is one of the highest calorie food around. You might want to look into that too. You couild feed less and get better results. http://www.sprigkennels.net/online_store/dog_food/

If you must feed him Lamb/rice foods due to his allergy then you will have to add a food supplement to boost his eating and thus his weight. There is NO Lamb/rice foods I know of that are high calorie performance foods.

Getting any dog to eat in 10 minutes or less is really pretty easy. If you need to add canned food for now to boost the taste then do it. I prefer to use Evengers Chicken. You can use Lamb/rice if needed with lamb/rice dry food.

Just a heaping tablespoon of canned meat and add plenty of warm water and mix it all together with the dry food into a gravy. NO DOG should walk away from that. Feed at least 2 times a day AM/PM 10 to 12 hrs apart.
STOP all other food, treats, Greenies, carrots, everything during the day until he starts eating 2 meals a day with in 10 minutes or less for 7 days. If you stick to this program 100% you dog will eat more food and put on the needed weight.
If he walks away from the food leave it for 10 minutes and take it up till the next meal. Put it in an air tight container and warm it up again next meal. He should eat in a couple of days for sure. Never had it take more than 3 day total with the most stubbborn dog. With some rescue dogs I have had over the years that wouldn't eat the above mixure I have sat on the floor and hand fed that dog each meal for a couple of days to gain trust and bond with the dog. I doubt that is your dogs problem but it does happen.

If you want to add any of the digestive enzymes I listed before they would work very well and you should be able to feed less over time and keep the wieght on.

FYI... I have known dogs, high energy working German Shpeherds and some Border Collies that could eat 4 to 6 cups of food a day with sloppy stools and never gain proper weight and with PROZYME add to each meal was able to gain weight, coat never looked better and they reduced the food to 3 cups per day. Same with a Belgian Malinois I owned. Skin and bones at 18 months old with I got him. No matter how much you fed him or high calorie the food he would gain weight. The vet could not find anything wrong with him and was stumped why this dog wouldn't gain weight.
I wasn't. I added PROZYME and Show Stopper supplement and it was amazing how well it worked. I feed all my dogs Canidae All Life Stage formula dog food. 465 K-cal per cup. Pretty high calorie for an adult food.

Show Stopper - http://www.k9power.com/

So there are lots to do for your dog to get him to eat and gain weight. Stop the free feeding and get onto the 10 minute program. I know it will work for him. Grain Free Food is not the answer either unles he has allergy symptoms to some grains. But I doubt that.

Keep us posted.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Fri May 29, 2009 8:25 am

phermes1 wrote:Happy B-day to Zio. Hope to see him in a few trials next year!

We're working on breaking the pups now. TomBoy is picking it up very well. Patriot is being a bit stubborn. The big doofus. :)
We girls are smarter... didn't you know that? :wink:

Zio was away for 4 weeks of "Puppy Camp" learning the basics: at this point he'll whoa fairly consistently & not try to creep up. And, while we're able to do some training & conditioning here @ home, we don't have nearly the time, resources, or skills to go to the next level. Thus, he'll be going back for at least another 4 weeks at the end of Aug/beginning of Sept to be broken.

And no, we don't have any plans for horses. :P
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Fri May 29, 2009 8:38 am

Chaingang wrote:
ezzy 333 wrote:The feeds without grain are normally lower calories. You need to go the other way if you need more energy. Less grain will normally run higher protein but less calories.

Ezzy

I'm becoming a believer in this line of thinking as well. I have experimented with a couple different grainless formulas that were advertised as high in protein and fat, but grainless and ended up having to feed 6 cups a day to just to maintain an acceptable weight and body shape. This may be fine for dogs who are not active or gain weight easily, but others it just may not be enough. It's almost like the doggie equivalent to the "Atkins" high protein, low carb diet. Granted my young GSP has a high metabolism, I've always had better luck with a performance feed that contains some cereal grains, which seemed to do a better job of maintaining weight with less fed.
There are several out there that supply carbs through better sources like potato or rice, but in much lower ratios than supermarket brands. Either way, after reading up on his previous & current food, IMHO they have a lot of junk in them that are simply cheap fillers and nutritionally suspect. Coupling that with his loss of weight/lack of appetite, and it's definitely time to investigate alternatives.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Fri May 29, 2009 9:51 am

SubMariner wrote:
Chaingang wrote:
ezzy 333 wrote:The feeds without grain are normally lower calories. You need to go the other way if you need more energy. Less grain will normally run higher protein but less calories.

Ezzy

I'm becoming a believer in this line of thinking as well. I have experimented with a couple different grainless formulas that were advertised as high in protein and fat, but grainless and ended up having to feed 6 cups a day to just to maintain an acceptable weight and body shape. This may be fine for dogs who are not active or gain weight easily, but others it just may not be enough. It's almost like the doggie equivalent to the "Atkins" high protein, low carb diet. Granted my young GSP has a high metabolism, I've always had better luck with a performance feed that contains some cereal grains, which seemed to do a better job of maintaining weight with less fed.
There are several out there that supply carbs through better sources like potato or rice, but in much lower ratios than supermarket brands. Either way, after reading up on his previous & current food, IMHO they have a lot of junk in them that are simply cheap fillers and nutritionally suspect. Coupling that with his loss of weight/lack of appetite, and it's definitely time to investigate alternatives.
There are no better carb source s than corn. However, the body uses carbs and amino acids nd it makes little difference to the source. And to set the facts straight, there are no fillers in a dog food. No one is going to add something to the feed that has no purpose and then pay to have it shipped all over the country. Feed is expensive enough withoput adding another ingredient that serves no purpose. Something else to think about is we all buy the ingredients on the open market and most come from the same companies. Each ingredient has to meet a certain requirement by law and it is checked not only by the shipping company but also the recieving company, the state, and the federal government.

There are slight differences in the different feeds but it is slight. There are differences in the additives that are used and also differences in the meat and plant material such as beef, lamb, or chicken, plus some minor more expensive sources that provide the same amino acids that the common ones do plus different carb sourcesbut not better. The main reason companies use what they do is because they may have a source close by that reduces their shipping costs or their marketing department has decided they can market a feed better that has some cosmetic differences that they use in their advertising. Plus rarely there is a special need dog that has a problem with a specific ingredient. But the fact remains that the end result is almost identical.

Feed manufacturing is a closely monitored, tightly regulated process and every successful company makes a feed that fulfils the animals needs and their customers continue to buy and feed those products. Of course, you are free to feed anything you want, but remember there are thousands of people feeding the same feed with good results no matter which one you buy including the one you think is worthless. The best feed you can feed is one your dog is doing well on, is easily available, and you can afford. And dogs do better if they are fed the same feed rather than switching often. Just don't be disappointed when you find another feed if it performs just like the one you are already using.

It sounds to me like your dog is doing find but you may want to tweek your feeding protocol a little. Dogs are like people, some put on weight and some don't no matter what they eat and in the end the ones that are on the thin side end up normally the healthiest.

Ezzy
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by big steve46 » Fri May 29, 2009 11:39 am

MikeB has a good set of recommendations. Generally, I recommend free feeding, but there are exceptions. Making the dog hungry will probably induce him to gulp a larger volume overall. The enzymes may be helpful also.

Just trying another good quality high calorie food might also do the trick, especially if you add the enzymes to decrease any possible food sensitivity. There's a variety of things to try, but keep it simple if possible.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by phermes1 » Fri May 29, 2009 1:07 pm

SubMariner wrote:
We girls are smarter... didn't you know that? :wink:

Zio was away for 4 weeks of "Puppy Camp" learning the basics: at this point he'll whoa fairly consistently & not try to creep up. And, while we're able to do some training & conditioning here @ home, we don't have nearly the time, resources, or skills to go to the next level. Thus, he'll be going back for at least another 4 weeks at the end of Aug/beginning of Sept to be broken.

And no, we don't have any plans for horses. :P
Yeah - too smart. TomBoy is just like her mother in that respect. Buffy is extremely smart and broke very, very quickly. The first time. :) Then she figured out that I couldn't stop her when the check cord wasn't attached. Had to totally change my approach in order to continue with her. She's doing great now, but there's something to be said for dogs too dumb to question you. :)

Who are you sending Zio off to?
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Sun May 31, 2009 6:49 am

There are no better carb source s than corn. However, the body uses carbs and amino acids nd it makes little difference to the source. And to set the facts straight, there are no fillers in a dog food. No one is going to add something to the feed that has no purpose and then pay to have it shipped all over the country. Feed is expensive enough withoput adding another ingredient that serves no purpose. Something else to think about is we all buy the ingredients on the open market and most come from the same companies. Each ingredient has to meet a certain requirement by law and it is checked not only by the shipping company but also the recieving company, the state, and the federal government.

There are slight differences in the different feeds but it is slight. There are differences in the additives that are used and also differences in the meat and plant material such as beef, lamb, or chicken, plus some minor more expensive sources that provide the same amino acids that the common ones do plus different carb sourcesbut not better. The main reason companies use what they do is because they may have a source close by that reduces their shipping costs or their marketing department has decided they can market a feed better that has some cosmetic differences that they use in their advertising. Plus rarely there is a special need dog that has a problem with a specific ingredient. But the fact remains that the end result is almost identical.

Feed manufacturing is a closely monitored, tightly regulated process and every successful company makes a feed that fulfils the animals needs and their customers continue to buy and feed those products. Of course, you are free to feed anything you want, but remember there are thousands of people feeding the same feed with good results no matter which one you buy including the one you think is worthless. The best feed you can feed is one your dog is doing well on, is easily available, and you can afford. And dogs do better if they are fed the same feed rather than switching often. Just don't be disappointed when you find another feed if it performs just like the one you are already using.

It sounds to me like your dog is doing find but you may want to tweek your feeding protocol a little. Dogs are like people, some put on weight and some don't no matter what they eat and in the end the ones that are on the thin side end up normally the healthiest.

Ezzy
With all due respect, some dog food manufacturers can and do put lower cost ingredients into their feeds to improve their profit margins. Since they are in the business to make money, putting in some items that have limited nutritional value or are in there to offset some of the problems that the lower quality ingredients may produce (like loose stools) makes economic sense to them.

For example,

"Dried beet pulp is the dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned, freed from crowns, leaves, and sand, and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is added to some pet foods to act as a fibrous stool hardener.

Brewer's rice is the small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice.
Brewer's rice is a lower quality rice product that is missing many of the nutrients found in ground rice and ground brown rice.

Ground yellow corn is the entire corn kernel, ground or chopped. While the whole corn kernel is nutritious, corn is commonly perceived as allergenic and an inferior ingredient. This poor perception is likely because corn products have lower digestibility and lower levels of essential amino acids, such as methionine and arginine, compared to high-quality meats."

Additionally, here is a review by an independent online resource about one of the feeds that has been mentioned in this thread. Again, I am not doing this to argue or embarrass anyone, but to show you the process I went through to look at a new diet for Zio:

Ingredients:
Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Rice Flour, Ground Corn, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Beet Pulp, Fish Meal, Flax, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Liver Digest, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Garlic, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Biotin, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Copper Oxide, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (a source of Vitamin K activity), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (Min.) 24.0%
Crude Fat (Min.) 18.0%
Crude Fiber (Max.) 3.5%
Moisture (Max.) 10.0%
*Omega-3 Fatty Acids (Min.) 0.38%
*Omega-6 Fatty Acids (Min.) 2.10%

Would you recommend the product? No | Price you paid?: Not Indicated | Rating: 0

Pros:
Cons: Insufficient meat content, use of by-products, low quality grains and other controversial filler.

The first ingredient is by-products. It is impossible to ascertain the quality of by-products and these are usually products that are of such low quality as to be rejected for use in the human food chain, or else are those parts that have so little value that they cannot be used elsewhere in either the human or pet food industries. We recommend avoiding any pet food using such ingredients. The AAFCO definition of chicken by-product meal is “consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.”

The main grain in the food is rice. Brewers rice is a low quality waste product, while rice flour is a fragment. This is followed by corn, which is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems.

Beet pulp is another controversial ingredient – it is a by-product, being dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is a controversial ingredient in dog food, claimed by some manufacturers to be a good source of fibre, and derided by others as an ingredient added to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats and causing stress to kidney and liver in the process. We note that beet pulp is an ingredient that commonly causes problems for dogs, including allergies and ear infections, and prefer not to see it used in dog food. There are less controversial products around if additional fibre is required.

Fish meal is the sole named meat ingredient in the food, but so low on the ingredient list does little to raise the overall meat content of the food. We can find no sign of a guarantee on the manufacturers site that this ingredient is ethoxyquin-free (ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative commonly added to fish meals and that is banned from use in human food because it is believed to be carcinogenic).


Zio's current food is simply not doing it for him. Although he is up to 4 cups/day, he has LOST weight since his last vet visit in Nov. IMHO while it's usual for dogs in field condition to look a little "ribby" by show ring standards, he really never had the weight to lose in the first place. Hence the search for something with better carbs and more meat.

We picked up some Innova Evo (Chicken) for him yesterday & will gradually be introducing it to him over the next several days. I'll up date the thread as to his progress.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 31, 2009 7:26 am

There is no point in arguing with you about the dog food since this has been discussed over and over as new people join our forum. But to set the record straight most of what you have written is not based on fact. I spent most of a life time in the the feed manufacturing arena and I tried to inform you as well as correct some of your misconceptions. Further more I and a lot of other people on this board have had years of experience feeding, training, and running dogs in trials as well as hunting. These are activities that put more stress on a dog than many dogs ever experience and most if not all will show you the results of feeding the feeds that fit into your catagory of a poor feed. And they feed it because it works.

Good luck with your feed but you should talk to a nutritionist or anyone with a lot of experience and learn a little about feeds and what you can tell from reading an ingredient list printed on a bag. There is a reason those "poor feeds that are filled with fillers" are some of the very best feeds for the health and condition of the dogs that perform at the highest levels. And every ingredient in them is there to fill a nutritional need They work because they are good and the companies that make them spend millions of dollars to insure their products fulfill the needs of your dogs.

Have a good day

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MikeB » Sun May 31, 2009 2:58 pm

SubMariner,

Are you feeding the EVO Large Bites? The first 4 ingredients are Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal. That is a HUGE amount of meat, unlike anything your dog has ever had I am sure. Be very careful you don't over feed that food as your dog could have major diarrhea for a while. Very high calorie per cup at 537 k-cals. I bet you could feed about 1/3 less food to start and maybe 1/2 as much as you were. Don't run to the vet, just cut back on the food and see it the runs stop.

If that food does't put proper weight on your dog then I would not waste any more money on expensive foods but start using a digestive enzyme with every meal. You won't believe what a difference it can make when you dog needs it. I say this from YEAR of experience with those products. THEY WORK!

End of discussion.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ACooper » Sun May 31, 2009 5:00 pm

Why come asking for suggestions just to shoot down every one you get?

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Sun May 31, 2009 6:18 pm

MikeB wrote:SubMariner,

Are you feeding the EVO Large Bites? The first 4 ingredients are Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal. That is a HUGE amount of meat, unlike anything your dog has ever had I am sure. Be very careful you don't over feed that food as your dog could have major diarrhea for a while. Very high calorie per cup at 537 k-cals. I bet you could feed about 1/3 less food to start and maybe 1/2 as much as you were. Don't run to the vet, just cut back on the food and see it the runs stop.

If that food does't put proper weight on your dog then I would not waste any more money on expensive foods but start using a digestive enzyme with every meal. You won't believe what a difference it can make when you dog needs it. I say this from YEAR of experience with those products. THEY WORK!

End of discussion.
Your points are well taken, Steve. We are definitely cognizant of the big caloric difference between the Evo Large Bites and the Exceed and will be tailoring his portions accordingly.

Again, I'd like to stress to those participating in this thread that your input is appreciated. However, even though I may not agree with you doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. Please pay me the same courtesy.

I have no pre-conceptions about which food is "best", that's why I've been doing so much research on this issue. Basically, not everything "new" is "bad" just like everything "traditional" isn't "good".

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 31, 2009 7:08 pm

I'm afraid most of your research is marketing propaganda from some company. Most everything you stated about a feed was almost completely wrong. For instance, that chicken by-product meal isn't good. It is an established fact that it is a better nutritional product because it does include the by-products. Or that corn is a low quality ingredient that is hard for dogs to digest when just the opposite is true. It is the most complete carb source mwe have and luckily it is readyily available and reasonably priced compared to other sources. Plus you get a high quality vegetable oil that the others lack. Or beet pulp, which is absolutely the best source of nutritional fiber because it the only one that is digestible as well as providing fiber for a healthy GI tract. Plus you get the added advantage of it being a cooling type feed that is extremely important in hot weather or when the animal is stressed such as when in labor or anytime you are trying to avoid swelling and heat. Flax is used as the very best source of the omega oils and rice or wheat flour is pure carbs. I realize this is almost completely contrary to what you posted but I point them out to show that the material you are researching is not from an institution that deals in research or unbias testing. Point is that feed you showed the ingredient list of is a good looking feed but you really can't tell without knowing what or howmuch is being used and what the total nutritional balance really is.

And for your information corn has the reputation of being allergenic but after years of testing it has been almost impossible to find a single animal that is affected by it. Food allergies are extremely rare and when we are able to find and confirm one it is almost always an allergy to the protien sources and rarely a vegetable product. Problems with dog food is rarely between the dog and the food but is almost always between the owner and the food. Different feeds do produce different results sometimes and depending on the management or owners there maybe different priorities. But in 99% of the cases the dog is doing ok no matter what you feed but there might be an issue with how you feed and keep your dogs.

But please continue to do your research but go to a source where you can get the accurate nutrional facts.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:20 am

ezzy333 wrote:I'm afraid most of your research is marketing propaganda from some company. Most everything you stated about a feed was almost completely wrong. For instance, that chicken by-product meal isn't good. It is an established fact that it is a better nutritional product because it does include the by-products. Or that corn is a low quality ingredient that is hard for dogs to digest when just the opposite is true. It is the most complete carb source mwe have and luckily it is readyily available and reasonably priced compared to other sources. Plus you get a high quality vegetable oil that the others lack. Or beet pulp, which is absolutely the best source of nutritional fiber because it the only one that is digestible as well as providing fiber for a healthy GI tract. Plus you get the added advantage of it being a cooling type feed that is extremely important in hot weather or when the animal is stressed such as when in labor or anytime you are trying to avoid swelling and heat. Flax is used as the very best source of the omega oils and rice or wheat flour is pure carbs. I realize this is almost completely contrary to what you posted but I point them out to show that the material you are researching is not from an institution that deals in research or unbias testing. Point is that feed you showed the ingredient list of is a good looking feed but you really can't tell without knowing what or howmuch is being used and what the total nutritional balance really is.

And for your information corn has the reputation of being allergenic but after years of testing it has been almost impossible to find a single animal that is affected by it. Food allergies are extremely rare and when we are able to find and confirm one it is almost always an allergy to the protien sources and rarely a vegetable product. Problems with dog food is rarely between the dog and the food but is almost always between the owner and the food. Different feeds do produce different results sometimes and depending on the management or owners there maybe different priorities. But in 99% of the cases the dog is doing ok no matter what you feed but there might be an issue with how you feed and keep your dogs.

But please continue to do your research but go to a source where you can get the accurate nutrional facts.

Ezzy
My information is coming from INDEPENDENT REVIEW SOURCES, NOT DOG FOOD COMPANIES, as you are suggesting simply because they don't agree with you.

Also, for some reason you persist in turning this into a pissing match; I'm NOT.

How about we just agree to disagree and move on?
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by YELLERDOGS » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:00 pm

This seems to happen on every forum I have seen. One forum I am on, feeding raw becomes a huge issue. Submariner, do what YOU think is best for YOUR dog. You asked for everyone's opinion about dog food. I think you got it, and then some. :roll: Take from it what you like and pitch the rest. Good luck, I know how hard it is to find the right food for YOUR dog. I finally found what was best for our dogs, what a sigh of relief.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Sprig » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:26 am

MikeB wrote:SubMariner,


No more free feeding, it's not working for him. He must be taught to eat when YOU put the food bowl down. As a trainer myself I teach this to all my dogs, clients dogs too, as a means of establishing early "I AM PACK LEADER" to eat their food when the bowl hits the ground. I put the food out and the dog eats it in 10 minutes or less. That way you can get him to eat more food of what ever brand you choose.
i would tend to agree with this. how you feed a dog is as important as what you feed a dog. i have had a weight issue with a couple of GSP's in the past so i put them on arkat's enhance pro athlete blend. if any dog food out there will bulk up a dog, this one will.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by daniemeade » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:21 pm

We also have a 2yr old male GSP. High energy very active all muscle very much still a puppy. We tried all the purina feeds with no luck what so ever. He was skinny and had the runs on all. We have since switched to Diamond High Energy by recommendation from some of you on this forrum and also our vet. Jake does wonderful on it. He has since gained weight and looks amazing. We do free feed. And always will. If done correctly the dogs will not over eat and we never have problems with bloat or obese dogs.

To each their own opinions...That's just my two cents.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by bossman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:25 pm

Hey Ezzy..While I'm a Eukanuba guy and I believe your in th Diamond corner..I think your opinion's stated above regarding then content of food is "right on"..I am also opposed to "free feeding". Just my perspective.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MikeB » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:32 pm

Daniemeade,

You Say... " We do free feed. And always will. If done correctly the dogs will not over eat and we never have problems with bloat or obese dogs.

So how do you Free Feed correctly? Please explain.

I will agree many high energy working dogs that are given lots of exercise daily can be free fed and not gain weight. But... not many family pets that only get a 30 minute walk around the block and hang out in the back yard will get fat being free fed on unlimited food. I have seen it to many times

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Tejas » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:20 pm

MikeB wrote:Daniemeade,

You Say... " We do free feed. And always will. If done correctly the dogs will not over eat and we never have problems with bloat or obese dogs.

So how do you Free Feed correctly? Please explain.

I will agree many high energy working dogs that are given lots of exercise daily can be free fed and not gain weight. But... not many family pets that only get a 30 minute walk around the block and hang out in the back yard will get fat being free fed on unlimited food. I have seen it to many times
I've had roughly 20 pointers and GSPs and only two of the bunch have ever put on excessive weight from being free fed. I have had one GSP who would have died of malnutrition if not free fed.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by nanney1 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:13 am

There can be other factors regarding whether a dog becomes too heavy while free feeding.

My first Bernese Mountain Dog was free fed and was about 5 lbs too heavy as a young dog. Basically, she was a chow hound. After limiting her food, she leaned up as she became an adult. If I had continued to free feed her, she probably would have been 10-15lbs overweight at adulthood. She was a pet who got her exercise in the backyard and wasn't on any type of training or exercise regiment. She was intact until age 3. After being spayed, she didn't put on excess weight as I limited her food.

My neighbors have several Australian Shepherds. They are indoor dogs who are walked regularly and given limited free exercise in their backyard. All are free fed. Until recently all were very lean. Their three females have now all been spayed. One has maintained a lean weight, but the other two have gone from slim 45lbers to fat 65lbers. It is really amazing to see how fat they've gotten. One of their males has recently been neutered. I'm keeping an eye on him to see if he blows up too.

Submariner: can you list the independent review sources you are referencing?

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:18 am

daniemeade wrote:We also have a 2yr old male GSP. High energy very active all muscle very much still a puppy. We tried all the purina feeds with no luck what so ever. He was skinny and had the runs on all. We have since switched to Diamond High Energy by recommendation from some of you on this forrum and also our vet. Jake does wonderful on it. He has since gained weight and looks amazing. We do free feed. And always will. If done correctly the dogs will not over eat and we never have problems with bloat or obese dogs.

To each their own opinions...That's just my two cents.
At this time of the year Zio is run only 30 min/day because of the high temperatures, even in the early mornings. (In Winter it can be up to an hour.) But the operative word for this dog is RUN! Fortunately, we can go out our back yard directly into conservation land, and let him loose.... whoosh... gone! :) Often he'll find quail, turkey, rabbit, deer and the occasional hog back there.

Like any dog, he'll give you the "I want what you're eating" treatment, but we rarely give him anything. Additionally, he MAY get a carrot or 2 during the day, and/or a greenie if I remember, but this isn't a hard & fast rule. So I think he knows that what's in his bowl is what he gets. He is definitely good on free feed. He will walk away from his food when he's satisfied and there will still be feed in his bowl.

What's interesting is that now that we are switching him to the EVO (and adjusting portions accordingly) the EVO in the "mix" is being eaten first, the Exceed being left in the bowl. Hmmm.... ;)
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:19 am

nanney1 wrote:There can be other factors regarding whether a dog becomes too heavy while free feeding.

My first Bernese Mountain Dog was free fed and was about 5 lbs too heavy as a young dog. Basically, she was a chow hound. After limiting her food, she leaned up as she became an adult. If I had continued to free feed her, she probably would have been 10-15lbs overweight at adulthood. She was a pet who got her exercise in the backyard and wasn't on any type of training or exercise regiment. She was intact until age 3. After being spayed, she didn't put on excess weight as I limited her food.

My neighbors have several Australian Shepherds. They are indoor dogs who are walked regularly and given limited free exercise in their backyard. All are free fed. Until recently all were very lean. Their three females have now all been spayed. One has maintained a lean weight, but the other two have gone from slim 45lbers to fat 65lbers. It is really amazing to see how fat they've gotten. One of their males has recently been neutered. I'm keeping an eye on him to see if he blows up too.

Submariner: can you list the independent review sources you are referencing?
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by kstitz » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:19 am

Submariner,

I have been feeding Evo for over 2 years with great results. I have tried other foods but what I have found is with the Evo they consume less volume but maintain weight better and there stools are smaller and firmer. I took Jake to his first field trial last year and everyone kept commenting on how good he looked. On the other hand the vet that I used to take him to always thought he was 5 lbs under weight. I believe most vets are not used to seeing many high strung hunting dogs.

I do believe that GSP's who are exercised regularly will always be on the lean side. Jake is almost 3 and it seems that he is starting to maintain his weight a little better than a year ago. My 14 month old was 45lbs when I got him and was not out of his kennel much in a month, he gained 3 lbs the first month that I had him and he is leaner and more muscular.

I have been in the health and wellness industry for about 15 years and I feel that vets just like doctors know little about nutrition. I personally can not understand why you would feed grain to a carnivore. Lets think about it logically, have you ever seen a wolf or a coyote in the middle of a corn or wheat field grazing? Grains are lack the essential amino acids to be complete proteins. Carnivores process fat and protein and turn it into energy.

I believe these dogs are world class athletes and they should have the highest quality nutrition available. If I could not afford to give my dogs the best nutrition I personally would not have a dog, especially a hunting dog. I am not trying to start a pissing match about one feed being better than another, I could care less what anyone else feeds there dog.

Kelly

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:07 am

I have been in the health and wellness industry for about 15 years and I feel that vets just like doctors know little about nutrition. I personally can not understand why you would feed grain to a carnivore. Lets think about it logically, have you ever seen a wolf or a coyote in the middle of a corn or wheat field grazing? Grains are lack the essential amino acids to be complete proteins. Carnivores process fat and protein and turn it into energy.
Think you may be right about vets and doctors. But I am questioning the rest of this statement. You do not seem to know that a dog is not a true carnivore. And yes you do see wolves and coyotes grazing but usually not in the middle of a field. Coyotes will eat anything and do in their normal diet. Wolves in the wild have to get their vegetables more often from the stomach and intestines of every animal they kill. That is what they eat first. After all of that is consumed then the organs and lastly the meat and bones.

As you probably know, grains are just as complete a protien source as animals. There is no one grain or meat that is a balanced amino acid source so the best way to provide all of the essential amino acids is to feed difference sources such as meat by-products(meat and organs), different grains(picked by their specific amino acid balance), and supplemented with the necessary minerals and vitamins. All animals process fat and protien but the efficient way to provide energy is to provide the carbs through a nutrious, easily digestible source, like corn or rice, or even some other sources that are used in specialty feeds. I am not sure but you may not be old enough to remember when most of our dogs lived on corn from the cribs, hog feed, or homemade corn bread. The reason I think those were used is given access dogs love to eat corn off of the cob where ever they can find it. And they also love to eat horse poop or most any other they can find. They crave the vegetable matter in it. You may even see them grazing on grass.

I too do not care what you decide to feed your dogs but I do want you to base your decission on true an accurate data and not on some bias report or old wives tales. There are hundreds of good feeds on the market and they all will provide the necessary elements for your dogs nutrition. I do think some are better than other but in reality most are very much alike. And of course there are a few that are trying to fill a specific area where there is little competion so they can survive in a very competitive market place.

These are the companies that have let the marketing people instead of the nutrionist influence the formulation of their products. And sadly these are the companies that through intense advertising including official looking reports have convinced a lot of people that their product is so much better than everyone elses because they don't use some certain ingredient that everyone else does. It just isn't true. When you stop to think about it, they make it sound like every other company is trying as hard as they can to go broke, when actuallity the reason everyone else uses the ingredient is because it works.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by kstitz » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:31 am

ezzy333,

I do agree with you that wolves and coyotes do eat the stomach contents of there prey, which is a very small percentage of the overall animal being consumed. On the other hand I have never seen a corn or wheat field where I hunt elk and deer. Grass yes, so maybe this explains why dogs like to eat grass.

I will have to disagree with your statement that grains by themselves are complete proteins. Hence the reason vegans have to combine certain vegetables and grains to make a complete protein. In order to be complete it has to have the 8 essential amino acids.

Evo does have vegetables as one of there ingredients, but I fell it is as a percentage more in line with there natural diet.

I bet if you butchered a cow and put it beside the cornfield those same dogs would not be so interested in the corn.

I am no expert in the field of dog nutrition, and I am very open minded to others opinions and experiences.

Kelly

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:06 am

kstitz wrote:ezzy333,

I do agree with you that wolves and coyotes do eat the stomach contents of there prey, which is a very small percentage of the overall animal being consumed. On the other hand I have never seen a corn or wheat field where I hunt elk and deer. Grass yes, so maybe this explains why dogs like to eat grass.

I will have to disagree with your statement that grains by themselves are complete proteins. Hence the reason vegans have to combine certain vegetables and grains to make a complete protein. In order to be complete it has to have the 8 essential amino acids.

Evo does have vegetables as one of there ingredients, but I fell it is as a percentage more in line with there natural diet.

I bet if you butchered a cow and put it beside the cornfield those same dogs would not be so interested in the corn.

I am no expert in the field of dog nutrition, and I am very open minded to others opinions and experiences.

Kelly
If you look back I said grains are as complete as animal proteins but neither provide the 16 essential amino acids, and there may even be more as we continue to learn more about nutrition and how everything works. And yes I have seen our dogs eating corn in the crib when there was a freshly killed carcass pulled out behind the crib for them to eat. That was not an unusual way to feed the dogs in the winter time. They will, do, as well as need both to balance their diet.

I have no personal experience with Evo but from all I know it seems to be a good feed. Just way to much money for what you get in my opinion. But if it is readily available, you can afford it, and the dogs do well on it, it's a good feed for you. But most people who are working their dogs real hard find that more carbs are essential to provide the most energy and stamina.
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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Rick Hall
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Rick Hall » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:26 pm

My "coyote" doesn't live in corn country, but he likes rice:

Image

and blackberries:

Image

His namesakes gorge on spring blackberries and do eat some rice, though I can't say I've seen their stools as packed with rice as blackberry seeds:

Image
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.

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ezzy333
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:40 pm

Rick that looks so familiar but I just never took pics like you do. we may have to name you official photographer of doggy poo. But it does prove a point very well.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

kstitz
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by kstitz » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:16 pm

That must be one of those Asian Labs!

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Rick Hall
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Rick Hall » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:23 pm

Speaking of scatology: did you notice the yummy cockroaches in the coyote crap? And it's not from some barren land where living's tough, but South Louisiana which is absolutely alive with readily available "real meat" year around. Would be kinda fun if all the folks pointing to wild canids for their dogs' nutritional needs actually tried feeding them what the wild stuff eats.
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Rick Hall
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Rick Hall » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:27 pm

kstitz wrote:That must be one of those Asian Labs!
Lab??? Oh, the ignominy!
If you think I'm wrong, you might be right.

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ACooper
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ACooper » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:10 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Lab??? Oh, the ignominy!
I was waiting for that!

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claybuster_aa
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by claybuster_aa » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:58 am

ezzy333 wrote:I'm afraid most of your research is marketing propaganda from some company. Most everything you stated about a feed was almost completely wrong. For instance, that chicken by-product meal isn't good. It is an established fact that it is a better nutritional product because it does include the by-products. Or that corn is a low quality ingredient that is hard for dogs to digest when just the opposite is true.Ezzy
Ezzy, he feeds his dog all the carrots he wants and a greenie in the afternoon!
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SubMariner
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:56 am

claybuster_aa wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I'm afraid most of your research is marketing propaganda from some company. Most everything you stated about a feed was almost completely wrong. For instance, that chicken by-product meal isn't good. It is an established fact that it is a better nutritional product because it does include the by-products. Or that corn is a low quality ingredient that is hard for dogs to digest when just the opposite is true.Ezzy
Ezzy, he feeds his dog all the carrots he wants and a greenie in the afternoon!
Although I may have initially said in my first post "During the day he'll get as many carrots as he wants, and a 'Greenie'", my subsequent message was actually more valid when I said: "Like any dog, he'll give you the "I want what you're eating" treatment, but we rarely give him anything. Additionally, he MAY get a carrot or 2 during the day, and/or a greenie if I remember, but this isn't a hard & fast rule. So I think he knows that what's in his bowl is what he gets. He is definitely good on free feed. He will walk away from his food when he's satisfied and there will still be feed in his bowl".

And if the original statement was true, what difference does that make to the the main thrust of the discussion which was the nutritional value of the food he was previously eating? All I care about is that the dog should be a happy, healthy member of our family, not what brand of dog food he eats!

FYI, my name is Cheryl & I'm definitely not a "he".
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phermes1
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by phermes1 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:59 am

So, SHERYL :) - where are you sending him?

We were planning on sending Patriot off for some training to 1 pro, but that fell through due to circumstances beyond our control, so we're looking at options right now. Most trainers are pretty far away, making transport to/from both time and cost-prohibitive.
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