Need New Dog Food

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:52 pm

phermes1 wrote:So, SHERYL :) - where are you sending him?

We were planning on sending Patriot off for some training to 1 pro, but that fell through due to circumstances beyond our control, so we're looking at options right now. Most trainers are pretty far away, making transport to/from both time and cost-prohibitive.
Agh... Paul... CHERYL!!! <yeesh>

PM on way... ;)
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by claybuster_aa » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:21 pm

SubMariner wrote:FYI, my name is Cheryl & I'm definitely not a "he".
Oooppps, sorry Cheryl. It is common I think for some dogs (especially gun dogs) to show rib until about age 3. Myself I would be overly concerned about the weight until that point in time. My dog was very lean her first 3 years, showing rib and the Vet never even mentioned her weight. She was probably at the low end of the weight class for a female Llewellin, but still perfectly normal healthy dog. By year 3 she filled out to where she was going to get (still lean but not showing rib) and stays that way today, year 7. You mentioned I think your dog was 2 so I would guess within the next year you'll she some notable changes.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:24 am

claybuster_aa wrote:
SubMariner wrote:FYI, my name is Cheryl & I'm definitely not a "he".
Oooppps, sorry Cheryl. It is common I think for some dogs (especially gun dogs) to show rib until about age 3. Myself I would be overly concerned about the weight until that point in time. My dog was very lean her first 3 years, showing rib and the Vet never even mentioned her weight. She was probably at the low end of the weight class for a female Llewellin, but still perfectly normal healthy dog. By year 3 she filled out to where she was going to get (still lean but not showing rib) and stays that way today, year 7. You mentioned I think your dog was 2 so I would guess within the next year you'll she some notable changes.

Charlie
Hey, Charlie...

Zio being lean & a bit" ribby" has never been an issue. We've learned that GSPs in field condition tend to look that way. That wasn't our worry. Our biggest concern was the fact that he was getting 4 cups/daily of Exceed and LOSING weight. Given that he really didn't have it to lose in the first place, we decided that it was time to change his food. So he's now on Innova, which is higher protein & higher calories.

He's had no problem making the switch, and now is fully on the Innova, albeit at 2 cups/day to adjust for the higher "fuel" content. We'll see how he does....

Pax,
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by claybuster_aa » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:38 am

SubMariner wrote: Hey, Charlie...

Zio being lean & a bit" ribby" has never been an issue. We've learned that GSPs in field condition tend to look that way. That wasn't our worry. Our biggest concern was the fact that he was getting 4 cups/daily of Exceed and LOSING weight. Given that he really didn't have it to lose in the first place, we decided that it was time to change his food. So he's now on Innova, which is higher protein & higher calories.

He's had no problem making the switch, and now is fully on the Innova, albeit at 2 cups/day to adjust for the higher "fuel" content. We'll see how he does....Pax,
Good luck with the new food. Weight can be strange when it comes to dogs. We tend to look at ourselves and think higher calories and protein must be the answer to gaining weight and cutting back on the cals will lose weight. It doesn't really work the same for dogs. The way the feed is designed and structured (ingredients) will have the most impact on gaining/losing weight. By you switching from 4 cups to 2 cups of something more powerful may not yeild the results you are looking for, but then again it may work depending upon the design and structure of the new feed irregardless of calorie content. Again, gl with the new food and hope you get the results you're looking for!
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by fordman » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:16 am

I have been trying Native 3 on 1 of my shags and he needs at least a cup more than on PP, and this is a no corn feed, to bad I bought 4 bags.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:36 am

fordman wrote:I have been trying Native 3 on 1 of my shags and he needs at least a cup more than on PP, and this is a no corn feed, to bad I bought 4 bags.
This is the norm when you take the best carb ingredient out of the feed. Other ingredients can supply them but it just takes more to do it.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by birddogger » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:18 am

SUBMARINER, everything that ezzy has said about dog food and ingredients is right on the money, and I would be willing to bet that what you call an independent study has an agenda. You can read some of these so called independent studies and end up spending two or three times what you have been and get an inferior food.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by big steve46 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:05 am

birddogger wrote:SUBMARINER, everything that ezzy has said about dog food and ingredients is right on the money, and I would be willing to bet that what you call an independent study has an agenda. You can read some of these so called independent studies and end up spending two or three times what you have been and get an inferior food.
Charlie
This is true. Also, if you ask for advice, you should be willing to seriously consider the responses.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Ron R » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:25 am

big steve46 wrote:
birddogger wrote:SUBMARINER, everything that ezzy has said about dog food and ingredients is right on the money, and I would be willing to bet that what you call an independent study has an agenda. You can read some of these so called independent studies and end up spending two or three times what you have been and get an inferior food.
Charlie
This is true. Also, if you ask for advice, you should be willing to seriously consider the responses.
I would just like to add that it sounds like you have learned all that you know about dog food and ingredients from this one inncorrect indepenent study. For someone to say that chicken by product and corn is not good for dogs is quite the opposite. This is a fact not an opinion. You may want to listen better and do more research. You sound like a very good dog owner and may be a little overconcerned about your dog losing a couple pounds.

Good luck with everything
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:54 pm

Ron R wrote:
big steve46 wrote:
birddogger wrote:SUBMARINER, everything that ezzy has said about dog food and ingredients is right on the money, and I would be willing to bet that what you call an independent study has an agenda. You can read some of these so called independent studies and end up spending two or three times what you have been and get an inferior food.
Charlie
This is true. Also, if you ask for advice, you should be willing to seriously consider the responses.
I would just like to add that it sounds like you have learned all that you know about dog food and ingredients from this one inncorrect indepenent study. For someone to say that chicken by product and corn is not good for dogs is quite the opposite. This is a fact not an opinion. You may want to listen better and do more research. You sound like a very good dog owner and may be a little overconcerned about your dog losing a couple pounds.

Good luck with everything
Ron
Once again, with feeling...

As stated before, I used SEVERAL INDEPENDENT INFORMATION SOURCES when looking at dog foods. NONE OF THEM ARE AFFILIATED WITH DOG FOOD COMPANIES. There is no "hidden agenda" here, folks. No conspiracies theories. Just a quest to get the best nutrition for my dog.

Regarding carbs, I couldn't find any independent online sources that recommended corn in any form as a carb source. Not all carbs are absorbed/used by the body in the same way. I cannot find any evidence that corn is easily digested by dogs or that corn is as good a carb source as potatoes or rice.

IMHO any ingredient that is routinely fed to COWS is not really appropriate for DOGS.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:35 pm

IMHO any ingredient that is routinely fed to COWS is not really appropriate for DOGS.


Don't recall this coming up in nutrition class. Must have missed that day. I think if you stop to think you just expressed a problem in your process. Going in with preconcieved ideas will do nothing but restrict your ability to learn in an unbiased way. What you or I think means little till we see the research and tests that prove what the body needs for proper nutrition. I have not tried to do anything on this thread other than tell you what we know about dogfood and its manufacturing through years of schooling and experience, plus through feeding many many dogs over the past 50 years. There is scads of research to backup everything I told you.

And going back to the original problem of your happy healthy dogs needing a different feed because he lost one pound in 5months is not a sign that the feed was in anyway defective or not providing good nutrition. Your dog might have just eliminated which could be almost a pound or maybe he had drank before the original weight. Now if that difference was 5 or ten pounds you would have a valid concern. But one pound says nothing bad about the dog or the food but says a lot about your undocumented concern about dogfood. You are not alone, as there are many people with a pet or two that do the same thing. But hopefully you will find that you do not have a problem and can move on to working and enjoying your pup. He sounds like a good one. Don't mess him up by looking for things that are wrong when there isn't a problem.

Good luck.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MikeB » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:51 pm


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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Rick Hall » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:58 pm

Always going to be those who insist dogs are cats. And little point in arguing long or hard with them.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by claybuster_aa » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:04 pm

SubMariner wrote: Once again, with feeling...

As stated before, I used SEVERAL INDEPENDENT INFORMATION SOURCES when looking at dog foods. NONE OF THEM ARE AFFILIATED WITH DOG FOOD COMPANIES. There is no "hidden agenda" here, folks. No conspiracies theories. Just a quest to get the best nutrition for my dog.

Regarding carbs, I couldn't find any independent online sources that recommended corn in any form as a carb source. Not all carbs are absorbed/used by the body in the same way. I cannot find any evidence that corn is easily digested by dogs or that corn is as good a carb source as potatoes or rice.

IMHO any ingredient that is routinely fed to COWS is not really appropriate for DOGS.
So what is appropriate Cheryl, plant fiber? It is very easy for one to look at the marketing of a product and think somewhere in there is the answer when often is does not hold true. Take the words "grain-free" as example and look at what they have done. They have replaced the fiber from grain with fiber from plants, flaxseed being the common denominator in many of these grain-free options. But have you made any real progress in the improving with the structure or design of the feed? Hardly, because fiber is fiber regardless of how you slice it and some may argue some plant fiber could be worse for dog than grain fiber. It ends up in there for reasons of economics. Do you want to pay $40 a bag or $65? Filler ingredients helps keeps costs down for the consumer and many would argue that in itself is also a bad thing in regards to the population control and strays.

Corn is another one of those ingredients which helps keeps costs down for the consumer. A long time staple ingredient and only until recent marketing have people shifted off the corn. However, the reason it was a long time staple because corn is a non-allergen ingredient for dogs. Myths circulate (especially on the internet) and are also promoted by some companies in the marketing, but being allergic to corn is like being allergic to outside air, it just doesn’t happen. White Rice is also another non-allergen when it comes those filler ingredients, but rarely seen for it is an expensive ingredient for manufactures to purchase. Corn has come under fire for many reasons as of late, one of them for the natural aspect. However, that does not discredit the fact it is a non-allergen ingredient, and some would argue some companies can take the “natural” aspect too far in some respects; however that is a separate discussion beyond the scope of what I have to say here about corn. So what really is appropriate…the flaxseed, the sweet potatoes, the cranberry dust, or good old fashion seaweed kelp? If I had to choose I’m picking the corn or white rice.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:23 pm

If I am not mistaken the quotes about ingredients came from this page.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/

Quote from above page
"What we look for in pet foods:
Meat, meat and more meat products. Cats and dogs are carnivores, and a species appropriate diet for these animals must be based on meat. They have no evolved need of carbohydrates in their diet. Grains are in pet food because they’re cheaper than meat products, and are needed to hold the kibble bits together. Not because they’re species-appropriate nutrition for a carnivorous mammal."

Hmmm......
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by big steve46 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:24 pm

As someone who has studied general nutrition quite a bit (BA in Bio-Nutrition among other related degrees), I might disagree with the Criteria and Standards set by your "Independant Companies." We have had these same arguments before. Follow the money trail, if not directly, indirectly.

None of us have all the answers. Dogs have their individual individuality just like humans do. Common sense says most dogs do well on most good feeds. There are food sensitivities, not to be confused with food allergies, that occur sometimes from certain grains such as corn, but that doesn't negate totally the benefit of corn most of the time.

Bottom line is that if researchers start out with the wrong premises, we have to question some of their conclusions.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MikeB » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:46 pm

For those of you who go back 20 years ago or more like I do raising and training dogs, If corn was so bad Paul Iams, owner of teh IAMS Co. would have been out of business long before he could have sold his company 60 years later to Proctor & Gamble. In the begining, his basic Iams chunk/mini-chunk formula was your basic Chicken-By-Product meal and Ground corn. His Eukanuba formula just added Chicken & Chicken meal as the first & third ingredients to the already proven Iams formula of chicken-by-products meal and ground corn. Back in the day Science Diet, Iams & Eukanuba was about the best you could buy and many millions of dogs did great on these feeds.

Except for eleminating Ethoxiquin as an animal fat preservitive to a healthier & more natural product.... Some things are better left unchanged.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Ron R » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:36 pm

One quick thing. When the first, second, and sometimes third ingredient is "real meat" (as opposed to meat meal) of any kind one should not trust that bag of dog food. Reason being, when the so-called "real meat" is dehydrated down it becomes the bottom % of the listed ingredients. Another fact.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:13 pm

Ron R wrote:One quick thing. When the first, second, and sometimes third ingredient is "real meat" (as opposed to meat meal) of any kind one should not trust that bag of dog food. Reason being, when the so-called "real meat" is dehydrated down it becomes the bottom % of the listed ingredients. Another fact.

Ron
Your thoughts are on the right track. However, I don't think it has anything to do with trust since it is the law that is being followed and it does not necessarily become the lowest ingredient. All it does is lose what ever weight the moisture was contributing to the weight of the meat. So what it amounts to is if you add 500 pounds of 50% moisture meat and you dry it down in the manufacturing process to 20% moisture you only have 425 pounds of 20% moisture meat left. That of course could change the order if you are thinking there is more of the first ingredient listed than their is of the second and so on when the moisture is removed. So when meat is used and you are going to lose moisture you have to put in extra ingredients toproduce a ton of feed. In the case we just used it would take 51 and 3/4 pounds of ingredients to end up with 50 pounds of finished product to put in the bag. Since we know how much weight is going to be lost we can add more meat. In other words that ton of feed may have had 575 pounds of meat added instead of the 500 pounds that we would have used if we were using meat meal so there would be no difference in the finished product no matter which was used.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Rick Hall » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:37 am

Ron's "fact" points up another problem with the referenced site's so-called analysis, it is only looking at ingredient lists and assuming the worst case allowed by labeling law, rather than a company's actual manufacturing practices.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by MB » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:38 am

I went on the "quest" a while ago. My opinion; the best foods for sporting dogs are the diamond, enhance, pro-plan, black gold, exceed type foods. Give me the by-products and corn any day because with out them we saw our dogs loose weight and stamina and the coats suffered as well.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:50 am

Keep this up guys and I will think all of my preaching is starting to get through. There are just so many rumors, untruths, and misconseptions in the dog food area it is hard to know where to start sometimes. But in the past week or so I think we are finally making some progress. Just hope we can continue to convince some of the new people to dogs so they realize they are dealing with a dog and not a human. That may be a bad comparison since I have never seen anyone worry so much about what their child eats as they do their dog that will live and prosper on most anything it can find. They have been doing it for years without anywhere near the problems we imagine they have today.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ACooper » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:11 am

Ezzy what I want to know is has anyone here ever had a dog with a corn allergy? For all the talk about how terrible it is and it is made to seem that dogs with corn allergies are common place. I have never known one that was actually allergic.

Many times when people are bashing corn you will notice a quote that goes somethiing like "corn is thought to possibly allergic to some dogs" Really? I want some proof.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:21 pm

In all the test we have run or those I have read about we never encountered one. I have noticed the same wording in practically every "independant" report I have ever read. There has been corn allergies documented but so extremely rare they are almost non-existant.

It has always been hard for me to understand where all of this started and where it came from. Just my own personal experience over the years that I have had dogs and had the kennel where we boarded plus our own allowed me to feed hundreds of dogs a year for 50 years and I am yet to find a dog that has shown any problem to any feed. I have even taken dogs in that had problems and were taking medication plus special diets and every one of them were put on our regular feed and they never had anymore problem and in most cases picked up weight as their coat and condition improved.

I realize some dogs may like a certain feed better than others and because of that may do a little better on the ones they like but the constant problems we read about here on the forum as well as many other places just blows my mind. One of the things we have always noted is that 99% of the feeding problems occur with people that are new or overly involved with their little house pets. Working dogs, kenneled dogs, and the people with a string of sporting dogs rarely if ever have a problem, even though their dogs are actually working and should exhibit more problems if they actually occured but instead are normally healthier. These are the people who pick a feed because of cost, availability, and the condition of the dogs and they feed the feed they choose for years and to everyone of their dogs and have great results. But many people with the one or two house pets often have to feed different feed to each dog becuse of some percieved problem. This is exactly why you see so many different feed companies selling so many specialized feeds and to continue to be able to survive they promote the differences and problems that we read about.

In my book when a dog loses weight it needs more feed or maybe a little more fat and dogs that are over weight need their feed cut back a little but neither is normally a case for changing feed but only a slight adjustment in your care of your animals. And with all of the supplements we add to the feed to insure it supplies all of the necessary ingredients for good health just makes it hard to see why other supplements need to be purchased or fed. Some dogs do assimilate feeds better than others but that is true with all animals and doesn't equate to the need to add a supplement. And most times if you see a change in the condition of the dog it is the result of adding a few calories that can be added in so many other cheaper methods.

Dogs have thrived through out history because of the ability to adapt to just about any environment including a wide range of food. And they still will if we just get out of the way and stop treating them like they are so delicate they have to be babied and fed only the very best of human grade feeds. In too many cases we end up doing more harm than good with our constant meddling with their feed. Find a quality feed you can afford and realize that your dog is being fed better than dogs ever have in the past.

I am now off of my soap box.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:39 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Ron's "fact" points up another problem with the referenced site's so-called analysis, it is only looking at ingredient lists and assuming the worst case allowed by labeling law, rather than a company's actual manufacturing practices.
<tongue firmly planted in cheek>So what ARE we supposed to use? Xray vision? :roll:

The only way for someone to know that is in the food is to READ THE LABEL. If they aren't manufacturing feed using the cataloged ingredients in the quantities they list, then what are they using and how are they using it? Does the company indicate on their label EXACTLY what they are using when it comes to things like "Digest of Poultry By-Products". Of course they don't, because if they did no one would buy their food if they found out that "Digest of Poultry By-Products - material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed tissue from non-rendered clean parts of carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as heads, feet, viscera, free from fecal content and foreign matter except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice".

Riiight....

My dog is a dog. But he's not an inanimate object to be treated like a piece of furniture. He's a living, breathing creature that deserves to be respected as such. If that means spending more than the price of a McDonald's hamburger on his food, then so be it.

People with "strings of dogs" have problems with their dogs too. They just don't talk about it because when it came time to SELL one of them, they wouldn't be able to get the $$ they want for them. :P
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:34 pm

material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed tissue from non-rendered clean parts of carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as heads, feet, viscera, free from fecal content and foreign matter except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice".
That list looks almost exactly like the formula for hotdogs. They sure are good though. Think they have to fight to get the heads before they take the brain and cheek meat for the meat counter and most of the viscera goes to the sausage department, and the best feet amd legs are pickled. If we didn't have to compete with the dog food industry our speciality food would sure be cheaper.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Rick Hall » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:51 pm

SubMariner wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:Ron's "fact" points up another problem with the referenced site's so-called analysis, it is only looking at ingredient lists and assuming the worst case allowed by labeling law, rather than a company's actual manufacturing practices.
<tongue firmly planted in cheek>So what ARE we supposed to use? Xray vision? :roll:
Tongue no where near cheek, you might want to try using you natural vision on dogs fed the food. Most of the hardest working gun dogs in the country are thriving on feeds that site rates one star.

And "animal digest" boils down to, pun intended, natural flavoring.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed tissue from non-rendered clean parts of carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as heads, feet, viscera, free from fecal content and foreign matter except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice".
That list looks almost exactly like the formula for hotdogs. They sure are good though. Think they have to fight to get the heads before they take the brain and cheek meat for the meat counter and most of the viscera goes to the sausage department, and the best feet amd legs are pickled. If we didn't have to compete with the dog food industry our speciality food would sure be cheaper.

Ezzy
Yoiks! Not in MY hotdogs!

Ezzzy... what ARE you eating? :lol:
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:53 pm

I have a picky, young, intact Spinone Italiano that has taught me a ton about dog food. I spoiled him as a pup on a largely raw diet with some kibble added. At 90lbs you can imagine how much work feeding him is. Green tripe, Omas Pride meat grinds, yogurt, eggs, etc.

Bottom line is that he hates kibble and I know why, kibble sucks!!!!!!!

After talking to people that actually know what goes into the stuff, the only kibbles you should give your dog are Orijen, Holistic Health Extension, Annamaet, Artemis and Canidea.

The best value of those is Annamaet and it comes in high performance formulas. It is one of the few companies where you can talk to the owner.

But do add some raw meat, eggs and plain whole milk yogurt.


Good luck

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:00 pm

mcbosco wrote:I have a picky, young, intact Spinone Italiano that has taught me a ton about dog food. I spoiled him as a pup on a largely raw diet with some kibble added. At 90lbs you can imagine how much work feeding him is. Green tripe, Omas Pride meat grinds, yogurt, eggs, etc.

Bottom line is that he hates kibble and I know why, kibble sucks!!!!!!!

After talking to people that actually know what goes into the stuff, the only kibbles you should give your dog are Orijen, Holistic Health Extension, Annamaet, Artemis and Canidea.

The best value of those is Annamaet and it comes in high performance formulas. It is one of the few companies where you can talk to the owner.

But do add some raw meat, eggs and plain whole milk yogurt.


Good luck
Sounds like your pup is doing well but it must be a full time job just feeding him. Can you imagine if you had 20 or 30 dogs or even 300 like some of the boarding kennels do in the summer. Couple of things to think about, that nasty kibble is formulated much like the breakfast food you buy at the store and there has never been a dog starve with a bowl of it sitting in front of him. And the other thing is you will seldom find a dog searching for green tripe or fancy ground meatunless you consider horse manure green tripe and a rotten carcass of a coon or a skunk as ground meat. If you do I will agree that your dog will search for it and eat it before any kibble.

Sounds like your pup is doing well but it might be hard to keep him nourished if you ever take a trip to bird hunt away from home. Oh and welcome to the board. Stick around and listen and read what most of these people tell you and you will learn a lot from many of them.

Ezzy
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:48 am

The raw stuff is a burden but I have just one dog. I sensed a knock on the green tripe...it is about as perfect a food as you are going to find and I can get organic pasture fed tripe in the northeast for 99 cents a pound. I just bought a 100lbs of the stuff.

For you guys in the heartland or down south, I am sure you can find an animal going to slaughter just ask the guy it keep and grind the the trip for you. Just to clarify, green tripe does stink to high heaven but it is not manure it is one of the stomachs in the cow, sheep, goat, etc.

The stuff is magic even if added in small amounts. Apart from the protein and perfect fat, there are enzymes that keep essentially eat the tartar from teeth that people spend hundreds of dollars to have removed by the Vet.

sal

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:36 am

mcbosco wrote:I have a picky, young, intact Spinone Italiano that has taught me a ton about dog food. I spoiled him as a pup on a largely raw diet with some kibble added. At 90lbs you can imagine how much work feeding him is. Green tripe, Omas Pride meat grinds, yogurt, eggs, etc.

Bottom line is that he hates kibble and I know why, kibble sucks!!!!!!!

After talking to people that actually know what goes into the stuff, the only kibbles you should give your dog are Orijen, Holistic Health Extension, Annamaet, Artemis and Canidea.

The best value of those is Annamaet and it comes in high performance formulas. It is one of the few companies where you can talk to the owner.

But do add some raw meat, eggs and plain whole milk yogurt.


Good luck

Your dog doesnt eat kibble very well because you havent let him get hungry enough!

IF you want to feed raw have at it. I would rather spend my spare time working/playing with my dogs, not working/playing with their food. :D

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:44 am

LOL I hear ya!!!! I am in the office at 7am and not home till 8pm so I know what you are talking about.

sal

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:46 am

Or go to Costco or Sam's and buy a big package of chicken leg/thighs and give him one raw after he eats. Don't give it first or else he wont eat the kibble.

sal

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:52 am

As you should know with all of the problems recently with salmonella that you are exposing your dog everytime you feed raw meat as well as many other raw ingredients. Other than that, it would be great if you want to spend your time and fortune feeding a dog.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:59 am

I never had a problem, I fed a Jack Russell raw from age 8 to age 18 and never once had her vomit or get the runs and once started never had her teeth cleaned. Same for the Spinone, his breeder weened him to 50% raw. I do hear ya though on doing it clean cause I had salmonella after a business trip and its no picnic. I am working on the cost-side as well but you are right, If I had more than one of his size I would think twice.

Do you guys see many Spinones? I see them up in the Rockies hunting and in the northeast.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:04 am

never had her teeth cleaned.
Don't have a clue how many dogs we have fed on dry dogfood over the years but it has been a lot and have never had a dog have its teeth cleaned.

For you guys in the heartland or down south, I am sure you can find an animal going to slaughter just ask the guy it keep and grind the the trip for you. Just to clarify, green tripe does stink to high heaven but it is not manure it is one of the stomachs in the cow, sheep, goat, etc.
Could you tell us what we need to grind tripe? Tripe is the stomach lining itself and not the contents. They use the term green tripe to cover the contents of the rumen which is just slightly chewed roughage and a whole lot of bacteria. It is a stinky way to feed fiber that maybe partially digested depending on how long it has been there which is important since a dog can't digest cellulose, before going to the first true stomach. You get the same benefit out of beet pulp since the avantage of both is it a source of fiber that the dog can digest.

And also what do you find so disgusting about nice clean corn, rice, soybeans, flax seed, or any of the other ingredients used in dry food?
I would guess you have never seen dogfood manufactured or understand even how it is done. You should try to visit a mill and see what actually goes in to the feed and all of the steps that are taken to find, purchase, store, and manufacture the feed to insure it is clean and healthy for your animals.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ACooper » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:55 am

The bottom line is feed whatever you like/can afford/ think is best etc. The problems starts when misinforamation/opinions/and unproven "research" start getting thrown around as fact.

Ezzy I always appreciate your knowledge on feeds.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Tejas » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:40 pm

Ezzy,
Although we have never met when I read the following I immediately envisioned you being this gentleman. I can relate...I am a senior also. It just seemed very appropriate for this thread.

A TRIP TO COSTCO

Yesterday I was at my local COSTCO buying a large bag of Purina dog chow for my loyal pet, Biscuit, the Wonder Dog and was in the checkout line when woman behind me asked if I had a dog. What did she think I had, an elephant? So since I'm retired and have little to do, on impulse I told her that no, I didn't have a dog, I was starting the Purina Diet again. I added that I probably shouldn't, because I ended up in the hospital last time, but that I'd lost 50 pounds before I awakened in an intensive care ward with tubes coming out of most of my orifices and IVs in both arms. I told her that it was essentially a perfect diet and that the way that it works is to load your pants pockets with Purina nuggets and simply eat one or two every time you feel hungry. The food is nutritionally complete so it works well and I was going to try it again. (I have to mention here that practically everyone in line was now enthralled with my story.) Horrified, she asked if I ended up in intensive care because the dog food poisoned me. I told her no, I stepped off a curb to sniff an Irish Setter's butt and a car hit us both.....
I thought the guy behind her was going to have a heart attack he was laughing so hard..

Costco won't let me shop there anymore.

Better watch what you ask retired people.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:50 pm

ezzy love ya but i do know the industry since a friend of mine is affiliated with a large east coast co-packer. i also did some due diligence on a famous brand when it was a start-up raising capital. i have been to the co-packer and honestly left the trip depressed.

i dont have anything against some of those ingredients but some are crap like beet pulp, anyway, the point is when kibble is in the bag it has been processed 3,4,5 times depending on the ingredient.

i will admit i am crazy with my eggs, homemade goats milk yogurt and green tripe but morally i cant feed my dog a food source so processed.

anyway, you are right green trip is the lining and yes it has some semi-digested contents but its feed for protein, fat, healthy bacteria and enzymes not for fiber.

http://www.truecarnivores.com/greentripe.shtml

you seem like a cool guy and i like the exchange

buy some beef hearts, green tripe and duck eggs and kiss that pooch on the nose for me

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:22 pm

mcbosco wrote:ezzy love ya but i do know the industry since a friend of mine is affiliated with a large east coast co-packer. i also did some due diligence on a famous brand when it was a start-up raising capital. i have been to the co-packer and honestly left the trip depressed.

i dont have anything against some of those ingredients but some are crap like beet pulp, anyway, the point is when kibble is in the bag it has been processed 3,4,5 times depending on the ingredient.

i will admit i am crazy with my eggs, homemade goats milk yogurt and green tripe but morally i cant feed my dog a food source so processed.

anyway, you are right green trip is the lining and yes it has some semi-digested contents but its feed for protein, fat, healthy bacteria and enzymes not for fiber.

http://www.truecarnivores.com/greentripe.shtml

you seem like a cool guy and i like the exchange

buy some beef hearts, green tripe and duck eggs and kiss that pooch on the nose for me
Gee love ya too but you leave me speechless. You are claiming knowledge of the dog food formulation and manufacturing because you have a friend that works for a co-packer,(what ever that is). And then in the very next sentence you make a comment about the premere vegetable fiber, beet pulp, without explaining why you would call it crap. Of all people, you are the one that should love a raw fresh vegetable for your dog. And it is a great minor ingredient for the health of the digestive tract. And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say kibble is processed many times when it goes in the bag. Didn't know it was, don't know it is bad, and am wondering why you eat the very things you are saying is crap for your dog.

Now for thee link to the marketing package put out by the Green tripe people. I will agree that animals in the wild do eat the stomach and contents of their kills and it is excellent feed for them because that is the main method they can get their vegetable protien and the carbs they need. But do you realize the analysis they listed was on a dry matter basis. In other words processed to the point of having 0 water in it. Now lets take it back to that 75% moisture in its natural raw state and you are getting very close to nothing from it except water.out of a 50 pound box of it you are getting just a little over 12 pounds of anything other than water. Doesn't make it bad but it sure does make it almost worthless to feed and also makes it so over priced it would be one of the worse buys a person could make. You also seem to have a fetish almost for human health foods and that doesn't quite work as a basis for feeding a dog.

You are free to feed what ever you like but you need to base your decision on fact and not on marketing propaganda put out by a company that is trying hard to sell their products by downgrading good solid companies that have made good dogfood for years that has resulted in better performances and longer healthier lives for our pets.

Hope you take the time to really study what you are doing before it causes you some problems. All of the additives you are feeding is doing nothing but unbalancing your dogs feed even further than the feed you are using and exposing you and your dog to a lot of potentially contaminated raw materials.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:22 pm

mcbosco wrote:ezzy love ya but i do know the industry since a friend of mine is affiliated with a large east coast co-packer. i also did some due diligence on a famous brand when it was a start-up raising capital. i have been to the co-packer and honestly left the trip depressed.

i dont have anything against some of those ingredients but some are crap like beet pulp, anyway, the point is when kibble is in the bag it has been processed 3,4,5 times depending on the ingredient.

i will admit i am crazy with my eggs, homemade goats milk yogurt and green tripe but morally i cant feed my dog a food source so processed.

anyway, you are right green trip is the lining and yes it has some semi-digested contents but its feed for protein, fat, healthy bacteria and enzymes not for fiber.

http://www.truecarnivores.com/greentripe.shtml

you seem like a cool guy and i like the exchange

buy some beef hearts, green tripe and duck eggs and kiss that pooch on the nose for me
Gee love ya too but you leave me speechless. You are claiming knowledge of the dog food formulation and manufacturing because you have a friend that works for a co-packer,(what ever that is). And then in the very next sentence you make a comment about the premere vegetable fiber, beet pulp, without explaining why you would call it crap. Of all people, you are the one that should love a raw fresh vegetable for your dog. And it is a great minor ingredient for the health of the digestive tract. And I have no idea what you are talking about when you say kibble is processed many times when it goes in the bag. Didn't know it was, don't know it is bad, and am wondering why you eat the very things you are saying is crap for your dog.

Now for thee link to the marketing package put out by the Green tripe people. I will agree that animals in the wild do eat the stomach and contents of their kills and it is excellent feed for them because that is the main method they can get their vegetable protien and the carbs they need. But do you realize the analysis they listed was on a dry matter basis. In other words processed to the point of having 0 water in it. Now lets take it back to that 75% moisture in its natural raw state and you are getting very close to nothing from it except water.out of a 50 pound box of it you are getting just a little over 12 pounds of anything other than water. Doesn't make it bad but it sure does make it almost worthless to feed and also makes it so over priced it would be one of the worse buys a person could make. You also seem to have a fetish almost for human health foods and that doesn't quite work as a basis for feeding a dog.

You are free to feed what ever you like but you need to base your decision on fact and not on marketing propaganda put out by a company that is trying hard to sell their products by downgrading good solid companies that have made good dogfood for years that has resulted in better performances and longer healthier lives for our pets.

Hope you take the time to really study what you are doing before it causes you some problems. All of the additives you are feeding is doing nothing but unbalancing your dogs feed even further than the feed you are using and exposing you and your dog to a lot of potentially contaminated raw materials.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:27 am

A co-packer is a company that manufactures food for smaller companies, mostly the "high-end" brands, that are too small to self-manufacture. Even Canidea, which is a national brand, has Diamond make the food. Co-packers work on a contract basis and even source ingredients for some companies. These guys see everything and a well placed guy can give you lots of information.


as for green tripe, i have a Uni of Penn Vet School study at home comparing muscle mass that i will try to scan in here.

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by Shadow » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:49 am

while you're at it could you find some proven tests on Purina Pro Plan Performance- like to hear of the ones that are better- so a comparison scientific test would seem to be in order- sometimes one wonders about these college/university studies

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:26 am

Update:

It appears Zio is doing well on his Innova Evo.

Would people who don't have field dogs think he looks thin? Probably. But at least he doesn't look so gaunt. Unfortunately we haven't had the opportunity to weigh him to confirm...

Pax,
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:21 am

My dog won't eat kibble with his raw stuff so I don't even try anymore. However, feeding 100% raw to a 90lb adult dog is pretty expensive and very timing consuming.

I have played hardball with him but he either eats around the kibble or removes all the food from the bowl and seperates it on the floor. Honestly, I'd rather not feed all kibble anyway.

So, on the recommendation of another Spinone owner, I started using Abady M & S, which is a highly caloric granular food, to add to his raw stuff.

I was on vacation a few weeks ago and sent him to the farm with just the Abady and he held weight on 2.5 cups, yes just 2.5 cups for a 90lb dog on a farm for 9 days, far more activity than at home.

The food has been around for about 30 years and I know Robert Abady was a very polarizing dog breeder, but he eats it and shines like a penny.

It appears very expensive, but you really do feed about half, so its not so bad.

Good Luck

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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by claybuster_aa » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:56 pm

You have made a great choice in feeding program! I feed straight granular with no mixing of other feeds going on 7 years now. I haven't tried any raw feeding for my dog but have been tempted. No need for me though because granular is complete food in in itself, yet an excellent way for raw feeders like yourself to cut some costs.

Currently I have been feeding BASIC maintenance granular. The difference between BASIC and what your feeding (formula for Maintenance and Stress) is the location of the chicken meal / chicken by-product meal. BASIC has CBPM #1 and CM further down the list. Your M&S is exactly the oppsite. Calorie wise, BASIC is right up there with M&S at 876 per cup.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by claybuster_aa » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:12 pm

mcbosco wrote: I was on vacation a few weeks ago and sent him to the farm with just the Abady and he held weight on 2.5 cups, yes just 2.5 cups for a 90lb dog on a farm for 9 days, far more activity than at home.
Yes, it is a stand alone product and you really don't need the raw. Abady started with commercial raw feeds and developed the granular feeds about 15 years later as a convenience option for those for whatever reason don't want to mess with the raw. Adding raw or cooked meat to granular up to 15% is great supplement to the Granulars and they mention that on the box it is consistent with good feeding practice although not necessary.
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Re: Need New Dog Food

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:37 am

but my baby loves his green tripe and chicken grind, heheheheh

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