Question about spaying

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Wagner
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Question about spaying

Post by Wagner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:03 pm

I am having my 6 mo old gsp spayed and the vet recomended a pre-op blood test for anestesia meds. This vet also asked me if I wanted the dog on a saline drip to keep her hydrated, is this all necessry our old vet doesn't even offer these costly extras.

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littlehunterkennels
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by littlehunterkennels » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:30 pm

I would do some research before you have your dog spayed that young. They can develope health problems down the road being spayed before they have reached maturity. I would really consider waitnig until she is closer to 2 yrs old. If you decide to go ahead with they spay and this is only advice, I worked in a vet clinic and we never ran a blood pannel on a dog that young or put IV dips in them for a spay, IMO it is just a way for the vet to make more money off you.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by gdog » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:48 pm

littlehunterkennels wrote:I would do some research before you have your dog spayed that young. They can develope health problems down the road being spayed before they have reached maturity. I would really consider waitnig until she is closer to 2 yrs old. If you decide to go ahead with they spay and this is only advice, I worked in a vet clinic and we never ran a blood pannel on a dog that young or put IV dips in them for a spay, IMO it is just a way for the vet to make more money off you.
Below info found on http://wenaha.blogspot.com/search/label/Breeding..thought it was good info..

The following is an excerpt of data send to me by Dr. Charles Hjerpie DVM and Professor Emeritus at UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine...

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• If done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• Nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• Reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• Removes the very small risk (≤0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• If done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• Increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of>5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• Triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• Increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• Causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• Increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• Increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• Doubles the small risk (<1%)>
• Increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

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littlehunterkennels
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by littlehunterkennels » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:20 pm

"gdog" That is a great website and some good info
some other things that have been linked to spaying dogs to early is tearing ACL and developing bad hips

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Wagner
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by Wagner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:29 pm

In my AKC registration packet I received a letter stating all the above heath reasons to have your dog spayed. It says "Uterine cancer in spayed females will be eliminated, and the incidence of deadly brest cancer in females is markedly reduced if spayed before her first season"

This letter does not list any of the negatives.

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littlehunterkennels
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by littlehunterkennels » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:36 pm

the risks of these thing goes from 5% chance if spayed before thay come into heat to a 10% if they come in heat once and to a 20% if spayed after second heat. alot of those problems have a very slim chance of happening if you do not breed the dog. These are the % given to me by my vet. IMO the risks you will encounter if you spay to early are worst then if you wait.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by ShoGunGSP09 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:47 pm

Its funny you say that littlehunterkennels, has your theory of spaying or neutering changed, Since the second litter of abby and bo?

My thought is that yes wait till they have fully grown right before their first cycle or wait till after their first cycle. I lost a cat right after a neuter (didn't do the blood test) I was trying to save some money and he was just barn cat. The autopsy showed that his white and red blood cells were all out of wack due to a disease. He was 2yrs old. Now I had a female that got spayed after her second cycle and did do the blood test. I think that it is a precaution to do. I would do it on all my dogs if I have to put them under.

Here is what I found on blood tests (found online)

The Importance of Blood Tests

Many veterinarians recommend that senior dogs have complete physical examinations and tests twice a year. A comprehensive physical exam targets the dog's overall health by checking his weight, lymph nodes, skin, coat, lumps, bumps, heart/lungs, teeth, eyes, etc. etc. Blood chemistry tests evaluate the functionality of his organs and can detect conditions or diseases before symptoms emerge.

Understanding Blood Tests

CBC (Complete Blood Count)
The CBC evaluates red blood cells (RBCs), white blood cells (WBCs) and platelets and can indicate the presence of an infection or disease or a deficiency of red blood cells or platelets.

RBCs are important because they carry oxygen from the lungs to all body tissues. RBCs can be measured directly by counting them under a microscope or automatically with a specialized machine.

An indirect measurement of RBCs can be made by measuring the volume of red cells as a percent of the whole blood. This is called a hematocrit or packed cell volume (PCV). A low hematocrit and a low RBC count both indicate the presence of anemia. A high hematocrit can indicate dehydration.

WBCs are important for preventing and fighting infection. WBC numbers increase when the immune system is stimulated, such as an in an infection, parasitic disease and allergies. There are five types of WBCs. A CBC includes a count of total WBC number as well as a differential. A differential is a determination of the different types of WBCs.

Platelets are thin, disc-shaped cells. The platelet count is important because platelets play a crucial role in the clotting of blood, along with coagulation factors produced by the liver.

Blood Chemistry Panel/Profile
To evaluate how the body is functioning -- are the kidneys working, how is the liver, is the pancreas functioning normally -- a veterinarian will run a panel of tests which examine the proteins, enzymes and metabolic by-products in the blood plasma.

Kidney Function
Measurement of the creatinine and blood urea nitrogen (BUN) are used to evaluate kidney function. Concentrations of both creatinine and BUN are normally low. If the kidneys stop doing their job, both BUN and creatinine concentrations rise because the kidneys are unable to excrete them efficiently. This makes them good indicators of kidney function. Dietary phosphorus is excreted primarily by the kidneys. In patients with chronic kidney failure, phosphorus is not excreted properly and results in elevated phosphorus levels.

Liver Function
When the liver is sick or damaged, many of the enzymes that are normally inside cells are released into the bloodstream. Measurement of liver enzymes in blood can help a veterinarian determine the source and type of liver disease or blockage. These enzymes are: ALT, AST and ALP. The liver is involved in making bile. Bilirubin is the orange/yellow pigment in bile. Liver disease results in the release of large amounts of bilirubin into the bloodstream. This can result in jaundice.

Products made by a healthy liver, and therefore found in abnormally low levels if the liver is not functioning well include urea (BUN), cholesterol, albumin, globulins and glucose.

Pancreas Function
The pancreas gland releases hormones as well as some digestive enzymes. Pancreatitis may be indicated by the presence of pancreatic enzymes such as lipase and amylase in the bloodstream. Blood levels of these enzymes can be several times their normal level in patients with pancreatitis. Amylase can also be elevated during kidney diseases because kidneys are responsible for secreting amylase.

Thyroid Function
T4 (thyroxin), one of the hormones produced by the thyroid gland is usually present in diminished amounts in the blood of dogs with hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid glands). TSH thyroid stimulating hormone) is produced by the pituitary gland and is elevated in the blood of most dogs with hypothyroidism.
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littlehunterkennels
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by littlehunterkennels » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:02 pm

Cami I know your cat also had vaccines/ a rabies vaccine while still under that can also be a cause of why an animal does not wake up after surgery. You do take a chance not running a blood panel but young heathly animals in general should not need one ran. When I worked at the clinic we ever only ran blood panels on older dogs and in the time i worked there we did thousands of surgerys on cats and dogs and only ever lost one cat during a spay and it was a rescue cat that was bred and the vet didn't know it. So there are benefits to running a blood panel if you want to spend the extra money but like i said before IMO and it is just my opinion it is a way for vets to make extra money.
ShoGunGSP09 wrote:Its funny you say that littlehunterkennels, has your theory of spaying or neutering changed, Since the second litter of abby and bo?
[/quote]
and yes it has changed with the further research I have done, after working at the vet clinic and talking with my vet on the subject.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by ShoGunGSP09 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:26 pm

Is that the vet that you thought was so dumb and didn't know what he was doing! And for your information Hemi did wake up after surgery and was doing fine. It wasn't till after he woke up that there was a problem. I was told by that vet that it was cuz of the white and red count that may have reacted some way with the rabies vaccine. Now if I would have done the blood test then I would have know something was wrong.
I will take the precautions that I can so something like that don't happen again.
And that's funny that brownie never had a blood test done since he was so old.
littlehunterkennels wrote:and yes it has changed with the further research I have done, after working at the vet clinic and talking with my vet on the subject.
I can only feel sorry for the current owners of those dogs, cuz of the health risks that they could end up with!
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littlehunterkennels
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by littlehunterkennels » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:36 pm

ShoGunGSP09 wrote:I can only feel sorry for the current owners of those dogs, cuz of the health risks that they could end up with!
I never informed anyone to have there dogs spayed or neutered at a certain age they went by the vets recommendation and I think this post was started to help the person who started it not for you to personally attack me so I am done battling with you since you think you know it all and have a personal vendetta against me.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by ShoGunGSP09 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:00 pm

No you stated your opinion and I stated mine and no attacks were made.
As for the owners it is just like this: when a family buys a puppy they talk to the breeder to create a relationship with them and when the breeder tells them over and over again to get the dog fixed as soon as possible then what do you think that they are going to do, especially when they don't know much about that kind of thing. I guess that you learn from your mistakes.
And this is no attack cuz i have made plenty of mistakes Im my past! And you do learn from them!

Sorry Wagner if this has taking off on the wrong foot, But everyone will state their own opinion about a topic and it is up to you to make the call in the end!!!
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by wems2371 » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:46 pm

Wagner wrote:This letter does not list any of the negatives.
You would naturally think that if there were positives--that there would be negatives--but yet that information doesn't seem to be widely available to us. I spayed at 6 months too, and really wished I had waited. After the fact, I saw the research that GDog posted as well as some other findings. Not only does it now make sense to me to let a dog hormonally develop, but based on the poor prognosis for bone cancer--I think I would rather deal with the risk of mammary tumors. I would think they would be more detectable and potentially easier to treat, and if done after the 1st heat...you'd still be decreasing the overall risk of them. Of course, I have to say that is my uneducated thought on the subject and may be incorrect thinking. While I'm responsible for my own decisions, and really like my veterinarian, I really wish he had presented some of the known negatives.

As far as the blood count prior to spaying, that test was not done on my dog. Blood count was done however on my 10 year old dog when she got put under to have her teeth cleaned and then again later when she had a surgery. As I understood, it was more of an age related test prior to surgery...like those that would be most compromised risk-wise have it done. You will have to come up with that answer on your own, as to whether you feel it's necessary or how well you know and trust your vet to do the right thing vs overkill. If it's a minor charge, it might be worth your piece of mind.

Denise

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Wagner
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by Wagner » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:42 am

Thank you all for the advice, when does a dog usually come into season I could wait until after she is 1. She is going to a trainer in about 8 weeks and I wanted her to be fully healed from surgery by then. She will be gone for 2 months which will put her at training right in her heat cycle is this ok?

GsPJustin

Re: Question about spaying

Post by GsPJustin » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:36 am

It ranges on every dog. Some come in at 8 months, some at 14.

I agree with the 2.5 year mark. The dog needs the hormones etc. to develop and grow correctly.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by shags » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:34 am

The vets I've worked for use pre-op blood tests to determine overall health. For instance, if a dog is discovered to have liver or kidney disease, the owner may want to reconsider surgery. Although the chances of a young dog having a life-threatening illness aren't great, it's still a possibility.
The vets didn't routinely use IV drips. The needle for the quick-acting initial anesthesia is left in the leg until the dog comes around, so if there is a need for any IV meds/fluids, the access is there.
Over the course of years, I've had some dogs spayed young, and have waited with others, and the good and bad side effects seem to be about equally distributed. IMO it's a crapshoot.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by dog dr » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:31 am

in the vast majority of cases, the pre-anesthetic bloodwork and iv fluids for a 6 month old dog will be totally unnecessary. Occasionally you will find one with some abnormalitiies on the bloodwork, but it would be rare. unfortunately, one of the biggest reasons vets offer these services is that more and more people are treating their dogs as children, and if something goes wrong, the vet gets sued. as long as they offer as many precautionry services as possible, they can help protect themselves against lawsuits. now, do these services help increase the bottom line for the vet?? you bet. and there are folks who want EVERYTHING possible done for their animals. plus, believe you me, the folks that prior to the surgery had NO idea about anything regarding blood tests, IVs, what happens during the surgery, or even the possibility that something could go wrong, are always the ones that get the most upset and do the most reasearch when something does go wrong. THEN they are demanding to know why you didnt do a pre-op blood test, iv drip, etc on their dog.
as for the age to spay/neuter, i leave it up to the owner. i tell them if they want, we can alter as early as 6 months, but its up to them. and, if i think its gonns be a "working dog" (hunter or livestock, etc) then i personally recommend they wait till about 2 yrs. but thats just me.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by Petra » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:02 am

The ACL dis. That I started also has some info on this, I also agee with a peace of mind is worth the cost of the pre tests , also one of the reasons for early nuetering is preventing the unwanted preg.pups in sheltersl as I'm doing this post the TV show is discusing adopting shelter dogs and at the shelter is a litter of lab pups, the female most be watched when outside, ie. Even left inside in a crate not in a outside kennel , the male dog will do amazing things to get to a female in heat,

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:10 am

I think we are streching when we think neutering our dog will reduce unwanted pups. If your dogs are not allowed to run loose there is little chance of your dog will get to any other females other than your own and with normal care that shouldn't be much of a problem either.

What it does do is cut down on the inconvience of having a female in heat that drips and a male that is so excited he can't even eat for a few days.

I would like to think we could handle a few weeks of extra work to benefit the health of our dogs. And with that thinking I would wait to neuter any working dog till it is mature.

Ezzy
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Re: Question about spaying

Post by Petra » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:34 am

I used the term nueter to cover both sexs , , Yes. We should be able. To handle a little incon. .not knowing exoerience of someone, comments are for. Considerations, I. Have seen dogs go through sheetrock to get to a female.

The post by dogdr was not posted as I was. GOOD. POST, WELL SAID.. Thank you for. Contributing your knowledge to this form.

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Re: Question about spaying

Post by 1vizsla » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:44 pm

We have had good and bad with both early and later sterilization... Torn CCL in a young (spayed at 6 mos) but strictly house dog and Mammory Cancer in the older dog (spayed at 7 years). Our hunting dog we have left intact because we may breed in the future and decided to wait to see if it made a difference. But as our vet says, the early sterilization may just be a coincidence of working dogs tearing their CCL's. They may just have more opportunity to tear them than the average pet. Our vet gives us the option of blood work but as a lab tech, I always order it but that is just my preference. So I guess my opinion is do what you feel comfortable with and don't second guess the decision after that.

Carla

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