ACL surgery

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:49 pm

My 2 year old GSP to have T.T.A. surgery June 2 would like any other person who has had good luck with this surgery on their Gun Dog let me know please.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:21 am

Five days after surgery, she is using her leg , only concern now is hock is very swollen. has anyone gone through this with their hunting dog , would like to know how well the dog returned to the field after and lenght of time to do it.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:27 am

I have a friend whose GSP blew out his ACL when he was 2 or so. I believe he had the surgery, then a year later blew out his other ACL. I don't recall how long they waited to start running him again, but I seem to remember that it was at least 6 months. I could be wrong, though.

In either event, the dog is now 6, in fine shape, and just finished his FC.

Good luck with yours. I hope she recovers well.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:58 am

I was told by the surgeon 8-12 weeks to FULL recovery, which I hope is true she is a great Grouse dog ,Sept 10 opener, with less running than in the open field I hope to start her there before Pheasent season to see how she is doing, yes I was told that there was a good chance that she would tear the other ACL due to confirmation, I am NOT breeding her, the other leg was a partial tear, with the miniscus also torn. keeping my fingers crossed. THanks for thr reply.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:29 am

One big problem happening with all the time spent triing conservative therapy and now the surgery she is developing seperation anxiety, I've never seen this in her before, ant tips to help? I guess I wont have her range to far.

markerdown · Post by **markerdown** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:47 am

How's the pup doing? She probably got use to all the attention. I made sure mine had a nice soft bed in her xpen, and chew toys to keep her busy during the recovery period. Mine had TPLO so the recovery period was a bit longer. I also put her on a weight management food to lessen the possibility weight gain. Keep an eye on the incision for any unusual occurrances like infection, weeping or swelling. If in doubt, always check with your vet for a rehab schedule, every dog is different so recovery/rehad/pt schedule will have to be adjusted to progress. And sometimes they regress. Just remember, don't rush it. Plenty of knee rehab/pt info on the web. I use Fresh Factors supplement to aid in recovery and so far, it works great ...........................markerdown

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:13 am

Thank you for the helpful words. Now into the third week. incision was good , the hock was swollen for two weeks. started therapy again , I was told very firmly to not try to push the recovery. and yes I give her all the supplements. Your picture is great , My last GSP at 6 mo was standing looking out a window next to an older dog with the same markings it could be a great Doolittle painting. Just need time and patience, BOTH OF US.

markerdown · Post by **markerdown** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:42 pm

Just remember take it in baby steps and do not over do it. No matter how great the recovery may seem, take it slow. Pup doesn't understand what happened and most likely just wants to run and be normal. That's the hard part. Outline a progressive exercise regiment and stick to it. You'll both be fine.......................markerdown

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:38 am

at this site and orthodogforum, most posts are about eventually having to have the other knee done, my research ranges from 30% to 75% chance of this happening, I would like to know if anyone knows of a dog only having to have only one knee done and was anything done to help this to happen or just luck?

markerdown · Post by **markerdown** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:38 am

Can't help you there. I thought I was in the clear after our older male blew his first. Two years later he blew out the second. My female blew her first 8 months ago, and is back to running at full speed. Am I worried about the other knee? heck yes! but I'm not going to turn her into a lap dog to avoid it. Her normal energy level and prey drive just won't allow it. Plus with two, the game is always on. ................................markerdown

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:25 am

I totally agree, she was made for hunting and that is what she wants to do, and I haven't had a dog with a higher desire and is so enjoyable to hunt with and a strong desire to please, she would not be happy as a lap dog.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:13 am

at another posting someone was asking if the dog with the knee problem was a spayed female mine is and at the bad age of 6 mo. , with the research that I have done and the lectures I've gone to on the subjects of nuetering dogs and at what age , my preference from now on will be not to nueter until after 14 mo. the last lecture I went to was given by a vet spec. at the U of M vet school who spec. in genetics, found that the incident of hip dis. decreased with latter nuetering with a corresponding also to all joint and muscle, and most vet I have spoken to say that the reason to nueter at 6 mo. is not a strong one that more are saying 14mo. min for alot of reasons. Having done my own research being spayed 4 years ago and the havic it has played on my body I can just imagine what it can do with an animal at puberty not getting all the hormones it needs. Just look at any boy doghe never looks like a boy. My next GSP will be a male, he is in the uterous at posting time, and he WILL stay intact, this is from a women who use it roll her eyes at the man who refused th nueter their male, SORRY, we all can learn. Now I will only have to deal with a very spoiled female since her acl injury and bringing a pup into the mix, isn't there always something, wouldn't have it any other way.

Luke's Guide · Post by **Luke's Guide** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:20 am

Petra,

My now 6 year old GSP will have her second TTA on July 1. She went from zero to 100% in about 7 weeks last time. That was last October.

I took it real slow and followed the doc's instructions to the letter.
On her first knee arthritis had already started but since the TTA it has shown no signs of progression.

My vet said he is seeing acl problems increasingly in the larger sporting breeds. It usually doesn't show up til later in life unlike hip problems that can be seen at an earlier age.
Something I will be sure to ask about when I get another pup.

Good luck. I hope your pup recovers as well as mine did.

I'll drop you a pm with my phone number. Call if there is any other questions.

Bob

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:12 am

Thanks Bob, was your dogs ACL repair due to injuries or degenerative dis.? We are at 4 and half weeks all is well. The ortho dog site is upset with me because I said it was less invasive than the TTA, boy did that open up some wounds for some I guess I'm blacklisted there like I'am on this forum . It can be heck to be an opinionated female sometimes.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:21 am

Petra--Glad to hear the surgery is going well. I spayed at 6 months too (vets suggestion), and am hoping after reading these threads that this won't be in my pups future as well. Every time I read about it, it makes me cringe to know I made that decision.

I don't think you're blacklisted.............at least I couldn't find the list anywhere!

Denise

Luke's Guide · Post by **Luke's Guide** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:48 am

Petra,

The acl injuries did not appear to be degenerative in nature, just genetically weak ligaments.

Like you said, turning my girl into a lap dog is not an option. I couldn't even if I wanted to.

I have her on very limited duty right now and she still points squirrels and tweetie birds in the yard while hobbling on 3 legs.

Sad and slightly amusing at the same time. I've found out she has really good balance.

Bob

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:03 am

wems2371, starting the sixth week and still alittle hitch in her trot, swimming was alittle soon last week , too much movement, back to the water treadmill this week. the picture of your dog looks just like mine. I,m on a list for a black GSP , if she has one, I'm excited, VCBLITZ, will congragulate me on my decision on a male, there will not be an early nueter on this dog, if at all. My vacation to Wisc. lake, last week, on our walks , saw to groups walking Labs all told me that their dogs had TPLOs, forgot to ask about if nuetered and when, all not too over weight about 5 lbs at most. the latest Pointing Dog Journal has an article on rehab, and mentions ACL, I will show it to the vet therapist today, it stated that ACL problems are not genetic, but isn"t conformation Genetic. I'll see what she says . She has more letters after her name than the alphabet.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:07 am

Luke's Guide, How is your dog doing after the TTA on July 1?

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:51 am

Petra--you mentioned your vet said conformation contributed to this. Since I haven't seen a pic of your dog or anyone elses with this condition, what is the conformation fault that is blamed? Is it lack of hock angulation? I've seen quite a few photos of dogs, where you can hardly even tell they have a hock, and wondered what problems that leads to. Denise

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:52 am

You are exactly correct, my dog's legs are almost straight up and down, very little angle at her knee and at times at the therapist the hock is almost hyper extended. she doesnt look anything like her parents,but has good lines, but no line breeding ,so always can be a crap shoot, and the early spay, alot of possibilities.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:12 am

Thanks for the info Petra. That eases my mind just a tiny bit, as I am lucky that my dog has lots of hock angulation. Was on a horse breeding farm for a few decades, and I know in horses the lack of angulation led to stifle lock and was definitely a no-no. I am not an expert on dog conformation yet, but have a bit of a clue from breeding and showing horses. I am looking to get a female pup next summer and I will definitely wait until at least 2 years this time to spay. Is there any written research about the correlation of early spay and these injuries or is it just a well known rumor among the sporting dog world? Denise

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:21 pm

Sorry to scare you, the coloring of your dog is like Petra's, yes last fall I went to a seminar given by a Vet at the U of MN. who specializes In genetics, she looked at early nuetering and hip Dysp., and disc . how the bone mass, muscle mass, etc. is linked to all the hormones during growth.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:23 pm

Denise, I'm leaving to take Petra to therapy, I will have her log in to the forum to see if you have any more questions. we will be going there for the next 4 weeks , Mon, Wed., Thurs.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:26 pm

Sorry to hear about your circumstances. My dog just had surger because she cut her achilles tendon. Recovery time will be 2 to 3 months. Fortunately we will not need any therapy but she will need to spend the first 3 weeks in her crate except for short walks to eat, pee, and poop. She is getting somewhat restless in the crate.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:14 am

information FROM THE VET SPECIALIST ON muscles and joints I received at my dogs therapy session yesterday, at this point the ACL problems are not linked to any genetic problems, and the most common problem is from degenerative dis., which the cause is unknown. The early nuetering can cause the growth plates to not close properly and less bone and muscle mass.with athletic dogs the thought is to wait until 12-14 mo if not a breeding dog. ,if nuetered before first heat 97% less likely to have related cancer, after first goes to 94% and after 2nd drops into the 70's and less and less after that. the problem with males is with the prostate more than the test., She did strongly rec that a breeding dog that is done being breed, should be nuetered. I'm sure there are other opinions on this, but this is from a vet who is always in contact with surgeons and other vets with treatment on joints and muscles, if anyone has questions, I will be glad to ask her at my dogs appointments.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:16 pm

petra at 6 and half weeks, now has the pettellar tendon swollen, only 3-4 dogs a year at this clinic is seen with this after surgery, It is getting frustrating to be doing everything that we are told and taking steps backwards all the time, now back to only pee walks for 5 days, metacam and icing. We both will be bouncing off the walls for the next week, poor dog, good news the x-ray showed that the bone is filling in well and nothing has moved.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:58 am

the tendonitis caused by too much activity too sonn has set Petra back 4 weeks , the post surgery activity done by Lukes guide, is very easy and simple to follow and is slower but has had for him much better results with his dogs, just using common sense with our dogs seems to be the best answer, better than the $3,000 I spent with the high powered therapist I'm firing today. So, using the common sense from all of the breeders experience over the years and all the research that I have done , my dogs will never by spay/nuetered before 12-14 mo again. Anyone dealing with this operation better to take the rehab slower than too fast, and good luck to anyone dealing with this. Petra's caretaker.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:14 am

The two I had done probably 8 yrs ago I had crated for 90 days. Only walked on a lead, right back to crate.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:53 pm

to all that has had this experience with their dogs, will there always be alittle sign of the surgery being done in the futute? ie. toe touching when standing being alittle lame after alot of exercize or anything else , so I won't be too worried if I see these or should I be calling the Vet. if I do? Petra is still sore with the tendonitis, hope it will resolve itself soon with all of the extra attention.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:49 am

10 week post op. before the appt for the x-ray I had my dog out side with me watching me chasing moles under the ground for months ,she was screaming with frustration watching me so I unclipped her and with her nose to the ground and 10 sec. latter she had a mole, so much for all the things I have got to get rid of them and the time spent , she was very proud of herself. Off to the Vet after the x-ray it took so long for them to get to talk with me I thought that I was going to get THE LECTURE for letting her run, but the surgeon said that she was good to return to normal activity, just take it slow, so now we have to work on both of us to get into shape for THE SEASON, including going to the range to shoot , I haven"t touched my gun since last Nov., I was told that the tendonitis would have self resolved itself , but would have taken alot longer without backing up on the exercize. Off to the lake for alot of swimming , she gained 2 Lbs in just 3 weeks with just alittle less exercize, and weight will be the biggest cause now for the other knee to go.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:56 am

I don't think 2 pounds will make a bit of difference. 20 might. Just take it slow qnd let her run without getting into birds would be my suggestion and then in a couple of weeks let her go all out.

Ezzy

Luke's Guide · Post by **Luke's Guide** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:08 pm

Good job Petra. I'm, in week 6 and get the x-rays done next week. All seems well so far.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:58 am

Bob, I hope you hear the exact same words from the vet that I heard, EVERYTHING LOOKS GREAT< RETURN TO NORMAL ACTIVITIES< good luck!!! Petra"s boss. Toni

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:31 am

First trip hunting since ACL surgery, went very well for the hour to hour and half that we were told that she could do now. YES, the Grouse numbers are up in northern WISC. Had alot of fun. She limps in the evening I was told because of muscle soreness due to none use, she was measured and the left quad. is smaller and the right is one inch smaller than that, will take some time, is this others exp. after knee surgery? I hope Luke's guide is doing well.

Champ · Post by **Champ** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:41 pm

Petra, unfortunately I am very experienced with ACL tears in dogs. My female Wirehair tore her ACL at age 6. The recovery process was smooth and she hunted the next season. However she then tore her other ACL on her left leg this time, and I had that one repaired too. From that point the quality of her life went down hill. She did recover from the second one as well and even hunted for a couple of seasons but she was never the same. She used to run so beautifully in the field but her last two seasons it was painful to watch. This season she turned nine and sadly could only hunt for a couple of hours at the most. If I hunted her longer I would have to carry her from my truck to the house. I had her on Rimidal to try to keep her a comfortable as possible. Then just this week I finally had to put her down. She could no longer go down stairs and the pain even changed her personality, as she became much more aggressive. I remember so well when she tore her first one I gathered as much information as possible and was so hopeful but what I learned is once they tear one the other one is sure to go. No matter what anyone says I don't think they will ever truly recover. I am sorry, and I know I just lost my best friend, but it was her knees that ended her life. Good luck to you...

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:11 pm

Champ. Did you have your dog fixed? If so at what age?

Champ · Post by **Champ** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:24 pm

romeo, she was fixed early in life, before one year. Why may I ask?

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:53 pm

Champ wrote:romeo, she was fixed early in life, before one year. Why may I ask?

There seems to be a strong correlation with dogs that are fixed before 2 years of age "early in life" and dogs that wind up with ACL injuries. A dog continues to develop until 2 years of age. Now by "fixing" a dog while they are still developing you are changing the way horomones work within the body, my guess is this includes growth horomones. And by what I have been able to gather certain parts of the body such as ligaments do not develop as well or strongly as if they had waited until the dog was finished developing before doing the surgery. This happens commonly with active working dogs because the ACL and such does not have the opportunity to be tested with an average household pet such as with bird dogs. Vet's are pushing for owners to fix their dogs very early. My suggestion is to wait until 2 years with any working dog.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:24 pm

champ, very sorry to hear about your dog , that is a very difficult act of kindness to do for our companions, Petra was spayed at 6 mo. as I was told was the best for her, but with all of the research that I have done I will not do it again to my hunting dogs even if they won't be bred, until two . She is getting all of the supplements that I have found to help, the fish oil and the glu-chon., vit C seem to be the supp. that all the people that I have talked to have agreed with, I keep her hunting time to a min., I also waited to do the surg. due to no draw movement and she dev. mod. arth., that I regret waiting and not doing an exploritory surg. , she had an accident, but her conformation in her rear legs is not the best., I give her metacam, when she is sore after hunting, this is what she lives for so even if it is only for a short time I will take her as long as I can. My new pup is almost 4 mo. and has beautiful conformation , he will be used as a sire if he proves himself, that is one of the benifits of getting a dog with a good pedigree, very carefully selected dogs were only bred by the two breeders that produced him, if he doesn't have ALL the elements that are needed than he will be nuetered after 2 years. If you would like to discuss this with me send me a P.M. Good Luck with your next dog. Toni

ccingraham · Post by **ccingraham** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:19 pm

My 3 yr old English Pointer, Nicki, had ACL surgery last fall and for many months afterward still continued to "carry" her rear leg after long walks or runs in the field. The vet who performed the surgery said she would never really have full use of that leg again and would have to get used to it. I visited our holistic vet who is also a traditional vet (from Univ of Mo vet school). She said that it was a shame for such a young hunting dog to not have full use of all 4 legs and designed a treatment plan that included accupuncture and glucosamin/MSM supplements. After a number of accupuncture treatments, Nicki now walks on all four legs after walks/runs in the field. She doesn't carry her leg anymore. So if you have holistic vets near you, I would highly recommend that you check it out.

On a similar note, my 11 yr old (at the time) English Setter, Honey Bee, was given a few weeks to live due to osteosarcoma. After visiting the holistic vet, she was put on an anti-cancer herbal treatment protocol and we changed her diet. Honey Bee continued to thrive for another 1 1/2 years - which is like 10 more years in human years! Unfortunately, we had to put her to sleep on Sunday but were so grateful to have her with us for so much longer than anticipated. There's nothing like a Setter. There's a hole in my heart now.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:27 am

I'm so sorry for your loss of honey bee. Sounds like you are fortunate to have the vet near you. The vet therapist that we were seeing does acupunture and chiro., I should maybe return and see if it helps . Thank you for the info.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:21 pm

Put Petra on Osteo Bi-Flex for people and fish oil and she is not limping or stiff, even after hunting in 1-2 feet of snow for a few hours.

littlehunterkennels · Post by **littlehunterkennels** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:44 pm

They are doing a procedure now where they take a fat sample from your dog and then use that sample to get stem cells and inject the stems cells to help heal the alc injury. I have had several friends who have tried it and have had very good results. It might be something to look into. They also do the procedure to help other types of problems like shoulders and so on.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:11 pm

The stem cells are harvested from either fat or bone marrow. The dog is anes for both the harvest and the placement. At a cost of 1000 to 1500 each time. I say that because there are not any long term studies on lenght of effectivenes. It has shown to help with arthritis mostly by observation, due to the the only way to know the effect is by doing a key hole surgery and that is why there isn't a double blind study on it because of the expence. It will not repair the ant cruciat that would be the ultimate hope for that to happen

littlehunterkennels · Post by **littlehunterkennels** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:07 am

Well for what its worth and if anyone is interested here is a website with some information on it. Vet-Stem.com My friend who did the stem cell surgery, did it for her dog that torn his acl and the dog is doing great. It is a border collie that she using in agility and he is 10 years old.They took a fat sample from the dog.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:56 pm

Yes I would love to have stem cell repair the ACL because there is a high percentage that the other knee will have to be done on Petra! For three months I tried to do therapy on her, with no luck. At that time I asked the vet specialist who is an expert in joint repair about stem cell the posting that I just did is what she told me at that time and when I called her last night to see if anything has changed in the last eight months, her comment to me was what I had posted is what she told me. I called her today and asked her today about the website that was mentioned and she is aware of it and is getting certified in stem cell placement because of the benefits to alleviate arthritis. She told me that there have been studies on the elbow and hip that she will be emailing me so if anyone wants it I can forward it on. She does allot of work with agility dogs and can get all levels of responses to the therapy. The only way to know the extent of the damage to an ACL is by exploratory surgery, and then the only way to know if the therapy worked would be to do the exploratory surgery after also. She would like the name of the vet and the phone # so she can contact. Also she stated that if there was true repair to and ACL the vet community would be very excited about it and would all know about it if this was a possibility. To repair the ACL and not do the surgery is what everyone is hoping for!

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:15 pm

petra is now having her left knee done with the tight rope tech, how are dogs doing with two knees done and anyone have exp. with this surgery on their dog?[img]

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[/img] No comments on all the collars I cant even remember what that is all about.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:18 pm

I did a TPLO on my dog 2 yrs ago. She was 9 then. Doing awesome. From what I understand, the majority of dogs that tear one CCL will tear the other side. I know the TPLO was a radical surgery but....was the best decision I made especially with a 80# dog, (Hound cross).

jbogacki76 · Post by **jbogacki76** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:58 pm

Two knees done here. Two different methods.

When one crucial lig goes the dogs good leg will move towards the middle of his body. This is to support itself. This is what causes the good leg to become weak. The good ligament stretches out. So when bad leg is repaired and your dog goes back to a normal stance the damage is done - and the good knee now has some play in it. Now, it just takes one bad move, or twist and you are at a partial tear.

My dog Gage had his first knee completed with the string method. It was ok. He is still a high drive dog, but it did seem to give out at times. The string will sometimes break. The method is to have healed with scar tissue around it to stabilize it. The string is only there to stabilize the knee to allow it to heal.
It is stable, but he has shown some serious arthritic signs on that knee and stiffness. It also makes a nasty cracking noise when he lies down or sits. Make sure you do your range of motion exercises with this method.

Second knee was done by a fascia lata transplants. That knee had a larger incision but is way better and was a lot cheaper. He does show some arthritic signs but nothing like the other knee.

Hope this helps, and I hope your dog does well. It sucks to have a high energy dog on lock down, because that dog doesn't know what that is.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:31 am

My ortho vet mentioned that other companies will be coming out with stem cell therapy in the near future and the price will come way down. Until they show it helps with joint (soft tissue like a CCL rupture) injuries, I will wait. I know it helps with arthritic issues tremendously.

Funnything b/c the procedure is not that complicated from start to finish, it is just that only one company does it and can therefore set the price!