Raw Feeding

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 am

When all is said and done, isn't this the best option if you can handle it?

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:16 am

No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food.

I know several otherwise normal people who do this, and sometimes apparently get away with it. So I won't suggest that they are all nutty conspiracists. But when they get a PhD in canine nutrition, they'll be qualified to over-ride those on staff at the better dog food companies, Until then, they're wrong. Or nutty conspiracists.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:56 am

MonsterDad wrote:When all is said and done, isn't this the best option if you can handle it?

Not really, it is just another option. Worse part is none of us are equipped to do it properly. WE have no way to measure the content of the ingredients we buy, we have no way to mix the ingredients, most of us do not even know what we need to feed a dog. And I doubt if many have any idea of how many different ingredients such as the different vitamins and minerals we need to add and finally how to store it. These are just some of the things we take for granted when we buy a commercial feed. We can raw feed but you will spend more money and get poorer results than we get feeding the time tested feed off of the shelf.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:46 pm

MonsterDad wrote:When all is said and done, isn't this the best option if you can handle it?

Just feeling it out to see if there are any new supporters/converts?

It is an option, but I certainly wouldn't say it is the best option.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:23 pm

I agree with the other posters above. It is an option, but a poor option in my humble opinion. Who out there that is feeding raw really educated and equipped to insure your dog is getting the proper nutrition? With all the good premium dog foods out there with years of nutritional research behind them why would you feed raw? It certainly can't be less expensive.

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:25 am

It was not something I thought about until while counting the days for a litter to be born, my breeder sent me an email saying she weens the pups onto raw and if I planned to feed kibble she would transition my pup to the kibble of my choice before pickup. This started a flurry of research... 15 months later, my pup is still raw fed

Dogs are carnivores, they are also incredibly durable which is how they perform well on sub-optimal diets loaded with carbohydrates.

The multi-billion dollar pet food industry funds virtually all dietary research in veterinary colleges, this monetary pipeline ensures that questions asked are the ones the industry has the answer to. Schools don't do large scale, contrary research because they can't afford to self fund, and lose industry money as well. This doesn't mean vets don't understand the value of a species appropriate diet, they do, and oversee them in 1000's of zoos around the world where valuable animals are displayed and bred

The pet food companies actively work to convince vet students that you and I are unable to produce a species appropriate at home. Kibble is declared the gold standard. There is a documentary called Pet Fooled available on Netflix and elsewhere. It's a little sensationalized at times, but contains lots of good info about the industry.

The nuts and bolts of raw is this, a properly assembled raw diet geared to the dog's digestive tract and dietary needs thus, is easy to digest, it provides all the live nutrition a dog needs without the carbohydrates and plant matter they don't, and it encourages dental health and endorphin release through the chewing of flesh and bone.

Raw feeding will never be as easy as scooping dry nuggets from a bag*. Finding sources of cheap cheap meat and organs becomes kind of a endless quest until you get sorted out with suppliers and freezer space. It takes some commitment to keep the costs in line with Premium kibble but you can get close- I spend approx $75 a month feeding my 60lb dog. If I had more freezer space, I likely could get close to $60.

There are a number of groups on facebook K9 Nutrition, Raw Feeding University, etc. Be forewarned many raw feeders are in the same evangelical mode as vegans, atheists, and crossfitters :roll:

*Kibble became popular during WWII when the dog food companies were forbidden to use steel for cans that was needed for the war effort. In England millions of dogs were put to death.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:32 am

Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.

Ezzy

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:39 am

ezzy333 wrote:Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.

Ezzy

Right on!

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:08 pm

Well, I had an experience last night I think may be germane to this discussion. I have a bait pile out for coyotes. Last night I shot a coyote over the pile. The bait consists of a road killed deer, the offal of a butchered beef and about 100 lbs of apples gathered from the tree last fall and kept for baiting. With free choice of these items in the pile, the shot coyote had a mouthful of apples.
Stupid Carnivore :roll:

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:11 pm

slistoe wrote:Well, I had an experience last night I think may be germane to this discussion. I have a bait pile out for coyotes. Last night I shot a coyote over the pile. The bait consists of a road killed deer, the offal of a butchered beef and about 100 lbs of apples gathered from the tree last fall and kept for baiting. With free choice of these items in the pile, the shot coyote had a mouthful of apples.
Stupid Carnivore :roll:

My dogs love old fallen apples. And the peelings are really good for them as per a study I read from the Netherlands.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Mine have helped me pick berries, pick the apples,and pears out from under the trees, and they bring ears of corn they find in the field up into the yard and chew the corn off to eat and leave the cobs for me to mow over And of course we can't forget the horse pucks and cat litter box. And the lists go on and on and on. Thank the Lord for giving me the ability to see what is going on all around me and to understand what is happening.

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:10 pm

slistoe wrote:Well, I had an experience last night I think may be germane to this discussion. I have a bait pile out for coyotes. Last night I shot a coyote over the pile. The bait consists of a road killed deer, the offal of a butchered beef and about 100 lbs of apples gathered from the tree last fall and kept for baiting. With free choice of these items in the pile, the shot coyote had a mouthful of apples.
Stupid Carnivore :roll:

Lol .
Of course a Caveat to that is ,when carnivores kill another mammal they always eat the offal before the meat

..Easier and quicker to digest , must be tastier too?.
You don't get much chance to eat apples in December when you are a Coyote I imagine ,so having a desert before the main meal would be a real treat

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:33 pm

polmaise wrote: Of course a Caveat to that is ,when carnivores kill another mammal they always eat the offal before the meat ..Easier and quicker to digest , must be tastier too?.

That is the conventional wisdom, but what to make of this where the rear hams are picked clean and the offal is still there.

IMG_1936.JPG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:39 pm

Only a fox/Cayote ,what do we know ? :roll:

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:11 pm

polmaise wrote:Only a fox/Cayote ,what do we know ? :roll:

Messing with you a little. No coyote has been on that deer - the one that has come recently died while eating his dessert

. But cats are much closer to true carnivores than dogs are - and the 3 yard cats have been feeding on the deer carcass - they won't eat the apples and don't seem to prefer the offal. The bare patch of skin you see just above the open cavity is the result of the prior coyote who came to the bait - that was when the deer was still whole and the apples weren't there. She was trying to open the gut cavity (unfortunately for her she didn't get to finish). So, the deer had open meat exposed at the butt by the magpies and yard cats, yet the coyote was ripping the hair off and trying to open the hide to get at the gut cavity.
Seems like most every coyote who comes by the place doesn't realize it is a carnivore.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:21 pm

slistoe wrote:
polmaise wrote:Only a fox/Cayote ,what do we know ? :roll:
Messing with you a little. No coyote has been on that deer - the one that has come recently died while eating his dessert . But cats are much closer to true carnivores than dogs are - and the 3 yard cats have been feeding on the deer carcass - they won't eat the apples and don't seem to prefer the offal. The bare patch of skin you see just above the open cavity is the result of the prior coyote who came to the bait - that was when the deer was still whole and the apples weren't there. She was trying to open the gut cavity (unfortunately for her she didn't get to finish). So, the deer had open meat exposed at the butt by the magpies and yard cats, yet the coyote was ripping the hair off and trying to open the hide to get at the gut cavity.
Seems like most every coyote who comes by the place doesn't realize it is a carnivore.

lol..Personally I wish there was a lot more 'Banter/messing' with members on here,it would lighten it up as long as they have thick skin .

btw, A stoat or Weasel is far more carnivorous than your cat

.. just saying . lol
atb
Robert

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:18 pm

polmaise wrote: lol..Personally I wish there was a lot more 'Banter/messing' with members on here,it would lighten it up as long as they have thick skin .
btw, A stoat or Weasel is far more carnivorous than your cat .. just saying . lol
atb
Robert

Yeah, the bad thing is the big old Tom is pretty efficient at killing the Weasels. Found two dead ones on my front door stoop already this year. Good thing is he doesn't eat them so they are much easier to dispose of than when he leaves me "gifts" from the birds, mice and gophers he kills.
I used to ranch Ferrets, and as carnivorous as they are, we still mixed some grain supplement in their feed (it was made by Purina for the Mink Ranching industry based on their nutritional research they did for that industry).

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 pm

and mine climb up to the outside bird seed table and mow down on that...

Fozzie's Mom · Post by **Fozzie's Mom** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:38 am

As a vet tech that spent time working with a board certified nutritionist, I'd definitely caution you to REALLY research HOW to balance your diet if you're going to feed raw.

In a perfect world, a wild carnivore travels miles and miles to kill a wide variety of prey. That prey has also just eaten a wide variety of other meat and VEGETATION. So, by default, the carnivore is also ingesting that vegetation. In the grand scheme of things, that carnivore really has a whole schmorgasboard of meats, plants, veggies, berries, nuts, etc.

The biggest mistake people make in making their own diets (whether cooked or raw) is not balancing it properly. Yeah, your dog can survive for a while, sometimes a long while, but eventually the nutritional imbalance(s) will bubble to the surface in the form of all sorts of clinical problems. Any time you formulate your own diet, you have to research not only the caloric requirements and balance that, but the dog MUST be supplemented with good quality vitamins and minerals that what you're cooking WILL be lacking. There is a whole science alone behind how to do just that. . . . .and a regular old plain multi-vitamin isn't a good enough answer when you're formulating a diet.

That being said, IF you can do it properly and well . . . . . yes, a raw diet is wonderful.
But the vast majority of people are not able to do so. That's why we have the nutritionists on board our commercial feeds to rely on. And no, not all commercial foods are created equal.

But then. . . . . I'm also a proponent of rotating your dog food (brand and meat source) because I believe that all foods (no matter how good) are lacking in something for each dog, and too high in other things for an individual dog (going back to the example of the roaming wild carnivore above). Rotating through high quality brands and proteins every 3-6 months or so can off-set that.

Hope that helps!

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:23 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.

Ezzy

Grains and starches are necessary binders to produce kibble. All nutrition research performed by and for kibble manufacturers, start at that point. It's form factor and ingredient cost that drive the research and the product produced.

Several companies do well with the shelf stable, form limitations of kibble. While it requires a big chemistry set to do so, I don't think anyone is killing their dog feeding ProPlan. Please recognize the 30 billion dollar pet food industry spends over 1 billion dollars on advertising 100's of brands- Example: Purina alone markets 15 lines and dozens of SKUs of "perfect for your pet" foods. Why spend $1.20/lb for ProPlan when Purina says Ol' Roy is "complete and balanced nutrition" for $0.40/lb? Are they lying about Ol' Roy or are you overpaying for ProPlan? If they are lying about Ol' Roy, can you believe what they say about ProPlan? Both pass the same 26 week AAFCO trial. I'm not picking on Purina in particular, all the big pet food companies present the same paradox.

I understand not everyone has the bandwidth to research, and discipline to feed a balanced raw diet. In spite of great bloodwork (to rule out pyo during a false pregnancy), my vet interrogated me for 10 minutes about what and how I fed my dog, before giving his blessing and sharing that he has raw fed his dogs and cats for over 20 years

Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olsen PhD. is a great book if you are interested.

I have no financial interest in what you feed your dogs.
.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:10 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
I have no financial interest in what you feed your dogs.
.

Neither have I !..Neither have the millions of people who buy stuff for their dogs ,but they are hardly likely to say that what they are feeding their dogs which their dogs are fine with is actually 'bad' for their dogs. ?
You just have to watch this , even if it's just for 'Kicks'

..all the way to the end . It may be the best or worst 10 minutes of any dog food lovers (of manufacturers) life or maybe the best ?

It may need the sound up and large screen , but It's my reply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RAl_bphi8k

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:48 pm

I'll need to find my earphones.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:22 pm

You may have to find your bearings.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:07 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.

Ezzy
Grains and starches are necessary binders to produce kibble. All nutrition research performed by and for kibble manufacturers, start at that point. It's form factor and ingredient cost that drive the research and the product produced.

Several companies do well with the shelf stable, form limitations of kibble. While it requires a big chemistry set to do so, I don't think anyone is killing their dog feeding ProPlan. Please recognize the 30 billion dollar pet food industry spends over 1 billion dollars on advertising 100's of brands- Example: Purina alone markets 15 lines and dozens of SKUs of "perfect for your pet" foods. Why spend $1.20/lb for ProPlan when Purina says Ol' Roy is "complete and balanced nutrition" for $0.40/lb? Are they lying about Ol' Roy or are you overpaying for ProPlan? If they are lying about Ol' Roy, can you believe what they say about ProPlan? Both pass the same 26 week AAFCO trial. I'm not picking on Purina in particular, all the big pet food companies present the same paradox.

I understand not everyone has the bandwidth to research, and discipline to feed a balanced raw diet. In spite of great bloodwork (to rule out pyo during a false pregnancy), my vet interrogated me for 10 minutes about what and how I fed my dog, before giving his blessing and sharing that he has raw fed his dogs and cats for over 20 years

Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olsen PhD. is a great book if you are interested.

I have no financial interest in what you feed your dogs. .

Feed your dogs however you want but if you are raw feeding because of what you wrote you are doing it for the exercise. Grains are not needed to make kibble and every feed I had anything to do with, the physical quality of it was the last thing we worked on and not the first. I do recognize the big amounts of money spent but that always happens when the market become overly saturated with manufactures and product and the pet food industry is certainly that today. Your comment about the different feeds a company makes is failing to grasp the fact that a working dogs needs more energy than your lap dog so there has been and will be different feeds made for the different markets. A dog will live on either but will perform better with a feed that is tailored to it's needs while working.

Just a couple of questions for you though, what percent protein and fat are you feeding? How about the minerals and vitamins, are they in the right ratio and level to keep your dog healthy? What level have you found that your dog needs? How many calories do you feed a dy and how many does your dog require? Just a few things you need to know about the daily diet of your dog for optimum health and energy.

Ezzy

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:41 pm

Ok, I'll play...

I feed 4% of my dog's optimum weight during hunting season, that breaks down to:
23 oz of muscle meat (~20% fat).
3oz of heart
5 oz of green tripe
3.75 oz of edible bone
2 oz of liver
2 oz of another secreting organ (spleen, kidney, brain, sweetbreads, etc)
and a frozen chicken foot for a snack

I generally feed 2x a day, early morning hunt days she'll eat afterwards.

Off season, I drop back to 3% adjusting up and down depending on activity.

I judge my dog's nutrition the same as anyone else, proper weight, muscle, clear eyes, white teeth, minimal shedding, strong nails and pads, stamina, compact firm stools, etc. and annual blood work.

My dog gets the required nutrient balance through the balanced mix of proteins, bone, and organs as evidenced by her fine condition and blood work.

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:11 am

Sharon wrote:and mine climb up to the outside bird seed table and mow down on that...

Dogs will also drink anti-freeze. Where does the spark plug go?

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:10 pm

No worry . No antifreeze or poinsettias available for my dogs.

Now if that racoon in the back yard doesn't move on soon ..............I don't need 2 bit up dogs for Christmas.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:34 pm

Dogs do much better metabolizing fat as their primary energy source than they do with burning nutritionally unnecessary carbohydrates. Dogs have zero nutritional requirements to consume carbohydrates. They are in dog foods to lower costs (only).

That lower cost comes at the price of reducing a dog's stamina. It has been clearly demonstrated in the literature (and real-life experience) that carb-burning supplies quick energy (blood glycogen), followed by a crash. Whereas fat delivers even and sustained energy.

The idea that one can't supply optimal nutrition feeding raw, or that it is somehow "difficult," is fallacious. Following a PRM diet 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10 organ (half of that liver) it is very easy to supply everything a dog requires, without any junk carbohydrates.

It is the optimal way to feed a hard-working bird-dog.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:19 pm

Sure it is.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:55 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Sure it is.

I'm a fan of ezzy's wry understated humor. And his knowledge and good sense.

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:23 am

Sharon wrote:No worry . No antifreeze or poinsettias available for my dogs. Now if that racoon in the back yard doesn't move on soon ..............I don't need 2 bit up dogs for Christmas.

As I explained a dozen times to my sweet, but, wacky neighbor, put only enough seed in the feeder for the day and the bears will move on. He didn't stop filling them until the bears spread a week's worth of trash in his yard

The bears still come through, my pup treed one in September

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:40 am

ezzy333 wrote:Sure it is.

Ezzy as an veteran industry PhD expert, I've always been curious why the feed companies list protein and fat percentages on the front of the bag, but not these vital carbohydrates. Why is that? Likewise, if it's the carbohydrates that are so valuable to dog performance, why are "high performance" feeds higher in protein and fat than the regular formulas?

Much Thanks

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:02 am

The federal labeling laws are very specific about what you list, where it is listed, size of the print, etc. Carbs are not listed on any feed that I know of but protein, fats, fiber, some minerals, and some vitamins are. Carbs are included in the calorie count that is on the back of the bag as I remember and are not listed separately as there is no critical set amount needed. It is pretty much determined by size and activity of the animal.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:58 am

There is, in fact, no essential need for carbohydrates in a canine diet. Zero. All carbs do is cut costs and cut stamina.

Carbohydrate percentages are not included in labeling laws because this inclusion of non-essential starches and sugars is an embarrassment to the industry, and they don't want their shame in bold type.

Bill

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:12 pm

Spy Car wrote:There is, in fact, no essential need for carbohydrates in a canine diet. Zero. All carbs do is cut costs and cut stamina.

Carbohydrate percentages are not included in labeling laws because this inclusion of non-essential starches and sugars is an embarrassment to the industry, and they don't want their shame in bold type.

Steve007 wrote:

I know several otherwise normal people who do this, and sometimes apparently get away with it. So I won't suggest that they are all nutty conspiracists. But when they get a PhD in canine nutrition, they'll be qualified to over-ride those on staff at the better dog food companies, Until then, they're wrong. Or nutty conspiracists.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:39 pm

Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food..

This is not an unusual comment among the researchers as well. There is no way a raw diet can match the consistence of a kibble diet and it continues to be reported how important that is. Just another fact that is never mentioned by raw feeders'

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:The federal labeling laws are very specific about what you list, where it is listed, size of the print, etc. Carbs are not listed on any feed that I know of but protein, fats, fiber, some minerals, and some vitamins are. Carbs are included in the calorie count that is on the back of the bag as I remember and are not listed separately as there is no critical set amount needed. It is pretty much determined by size and activity of the animal.

From the USDA

FDA Regulation of Pet Food

There is no requirement that pet food products have pre-market approval by the FDA. However, FDA ensures that the ingredients used in pet food are safe and have an appropriate function in the pet food. Many ingredients such as meat, poultry and grains are considered safe and do not require pre-market approval. Other substances such as sources of minerals, vitamins or other nutrients, flavorings, preservatives, or processing aids may be generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for an intended use (21 CFR 582 and 584) or must have approval as food additives (21 CFR 570, 571 and 573). Colorings must have approvals for that use as specified in 21 CFR 70 and be listed in Parts 73, 74, or 81. For more information about pet foods and marketing a pet food, see FDA’s Regulation of Pet Food and Information on Marketing a Pet Food Product.
Labeling

Pet food labeling is regulated at two levels. The current FDA regulations require proper identification of the product, net quantity statement, name and place of business of the manufacturer or distributor, and proper listing of all the ingredients in the product in order from most to least, based on weight. Some states also enforce their own labeling regulations. Many of these regulations are based on a model provided by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). For more information about AAFCO,disclaimer icon please visit its website. For more information about labeling requirements, see Pet Food Labels - General.
FDA also reviews specific claims on pet food, such as “maintains urinary tract health,” “low magnesium,” and “hairball control.” Guidance for collecting data to make a urinary tract health claim is available in Guideline 55 on the CVM portion of the FDA internet site.

CVM DOES NOT recommend one product over another or offer guidance on individual pet health issues that are normally provided by the pet’s veterinarian. Questions regarding your pets' health and/or the specific use of any veterinary drug, pet food, or other product should always be referred to your veterinarian.

jstevens · Post by **jstevens** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:06 pm

Spy Car wrote:Dogs do much better metabolizing fat as their primary energy source than they do with burning nutritionally unnecessary carbohydrates. Dogs have zero nutritional requirements to consume carbohydrates. They are in dog foods to lower costs (only).

That lower cost comes at the price of reducing a dog's stamina. It has been clearly demonstrated in the literature (and real-life experience) that carb-burning supplies quick energy (blood glycogen), followed by a crash. Whereas fat delivers even and sustained energy.

The idea that one can't supply optimal nutrition feeding raw, or that it is somehow "difficult," is fallacious. Following a PRM diet 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10 organ (half of that liver) it is very easy to supply everything a dog requires, without any junk carbohydrates.

It is the optimal way to feed a hard-working bird-dog.

Bill

I have been around the edges of working/protection dogs for many years. A huge number feed raw, usually very little kibble with the primary food being chicken or turkey necks, and livers/gizzards. Actually when decent dog food is $2 a pound, you can feed them whole fryers for less money, much less necks and gizzards, etc.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:30 pm

jstevens wrote:Actually when decent dog food is $2 a pound, you can feed them whole fryers for less money, much less necks and gizzards, etc.

If you really want to save money you should make a deal with an egg producer for spent laying hens. With a #32 grinder and 1/2" plate you just feed them in it head first.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:21 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:The federal labeling laws are very specific about what you list, where it is listed, size of the print, etc. Carbs are not listed on any feed that I know of but protein, fats, fiber, some minerals, and some vitamins are. Carbs are included in the calorie count that is on the back of the bag as I remember and are not listed separately as there is no critical set amount needed. It is pretty much determined by size and activity of the animal.
From the USDA

FDA Regulation of Pet Food

There is no requirement that pet food products have pre-market approval by the FDA. However, FDA ensures that the ingredients used in pet food are safe and have an appropriate function in the pet food. Many ingredients such as meat, poultry and grains are considered safe and do not require pre-market approval. Other substances such as sources of minerals, vitamins or other nutrients, flavorings, preservatives, or processing aids may be generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for an intended use (21 CFR 582 and 584) or must have approval as food additives (21 CFR 570, 571 and 573). Colorings must have approvals for that use as specified in 21 CFR 70 and be listed in Parts 73, 74, or 81. For more information about pet foods and marketing a pet food, see FDA’s Regulation of Pet Food and Information on Marketing a Pet Food Product.
Labeling

Pet food labeling is regulated at two levels. The current FDA regulations require proper identification of the product, net quantity statement, name and place of business of the manufacturer or distributor, and proper listing of all the ingredients in the product in order from most to least, based on weight. Some states also enforce their own labeling regulations. Many of these regulations are based on a model provided by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). For more information about AAFCO,disclaimer icon please visit its website. For more information about labeling requirements, see Pet Food Labels - General.
FDA also reviews specific claims on pet food, such as “maintains urinary tract health,” “low magnesium,” and “hairball control.” Guidance for collecting data to make a urinary tract health claim is available in Guideline 55 on the CVM portion of the FDA internet site.

CVM DOES NOT recommend one product over another or offer guidance on individual pet health issues that are normally provided by the pet’s veterinarian. Questions regarding your pets' health and/or the specific use of any veterinary drug, pet food, or other product should always be referred to your veterinarian.

Thank you for copying part of the regsIt is a major undertaking to follow all of them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:24 pm

jstevens wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Dogs do much better metabolizing fat as their primary energy source than they do with burning nutritionally unnecessary carbohydrates. Dogs have zero nutritional requirements to consume carbohydrates. They are in dog foods to lower costs (only).

That lower cost comes at the price of reducing a dog's stamina. It has been clearly demonstrated in the literature (and real-life experience) that carb-burning supplies quick energy (blood glycogen), followed by a crash. Whereas fat delivers even and sustained energy.

The idea that one can't supply optimal nutrition feeding raw, or that it is somehow "difficult," is fallacious. Following a PRM diet 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10 organ (half of that liver) it is very easy to supply everything a dog requires, without any junk carbohydrates.

It is the optimal way to feed a hard-working bird-dog.

Bill
I have been around the edges of working/protection dogs for many years. A huge number feed raw, usually very little kibble with the primary food being chicken or turkey necks, and livers/gizzards. Actually when decent dog food is $2 a pound, you can feed them whole fryers for less money, much less necks and gizzards, etc.

Don't think I would even compare a complete feed against just meat.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:39 pm

I guess I'm just old, but all this food talk makes me wonder.
When my Dad and I bred beagles for around 20 years , 55-years ago starting, I remember one kind of dry Purina food available. When times were lean ,Dad picked up left overs from the construction site food truck weekly- hamburgers, sandwiches, salads , bread etc. Also fed left over turkey bits after slaughtering - we had a turkey farm.

Dogs had great energy , fine coats - no problems.

Hard to get me excited about dog food. I feed Purina Sport because most trial champions eat that so it must be good food. Right?

End of story.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:45 pm

Sharon wrote:I feed Purina Sport because most trial champions eat that so it must be good food. Right?

Well, I'm pretty sure that if one of field trial pros figured they could get a one-up on the competition in terms of better endurance by feeding raw, they would be doing it in a heartbeat. They (their clients) would certainly pay the extra cost if it meant winning more often - and finishing the hour strong is a pretty big part of winning.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:11 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food..
This is not an unusual comment among the researchers as well. There is no way a raw diet can match the consistence of a kibble diet and it continues to be reported how important that is. Just another fact that is never mentioned by raw feeders'

It is an absurd contention that every bite full of food that a dog eats should be "uniform." And it makes even less sense when that food is loaded with cereals. Your praising of "consistency" makes no sense from a nutritional standpoint. It is not a positive. For the same reason, we don't raise kids on "People Chow."

You need to do better than this Ezzy.

Bill

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:09 am

Sharon wrote:I guess I'm just old, but all this food talk makes me wonder.
When my Dad and I bred beagles for around 20 years , 55-years ago starting, I remember one kind of dry Purina food available. When times were lean ,Dad picked up left overs from the construction site food truck weekly- hamburgers, sandwiches, salads , bread etc. Also fed left over turkey bits after slaughtering - we had a turkey farm.

Dogs had great energy , fine coats - no problems.

Hard to get me excited about dog food. I feed Purina Sport because most trial champions eat that so it must be good food. Right?

End of story.

It's not something I ever thought about 2 years ago until my breeder brought it up. Many folks come over to raw when health issues affect their valued pets. If your dogs are healthy on kibble, that's cool. I hope nothing I've said has been taken as swipe against my fellow dog owners.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:37 am

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food..
This is not an unusual comment among the researchers as well. There is no way a raw diet can match the consistence of a kibble diet and it continues to be reported how important that is. Just another fact that is never mentioned by raw feeders'
It is an absurd contention that every bite full of food that a dog eats should be "uniform." And it makes even less sense when that food is loaded with cereals. Your praising of "consistency" makes no sense from a nutritional standpoint. It is not a positive. For the same reason, we don't raise kids on "People Chow."

You need to do better than this Ezzy.

Bill

Bill, read first, think second, maybe read again(in case you missed something) then report. I made no evaluation you might note, but just reported what the nutritionist and researchers have found and are reporting. Glad you brought up the People Chow, because it is well known if we did have that our kids would be as well fed as our animals and would be healthier. But then again, most aren't feeding their kids with the same goals in mind.

It will be for another day that I will tell you what I know from the research between identical formulas but in different forms, one example was ground and mixed homogenous and the other the ingredients were separate that were done during my time working in the field, but you won't like it either.

Ezzy

Ezzy

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:39 am

ezzy333 wrote: Bill

Bill, read first, think second, maybe read again(in case you missed something) then report. I made no evaluation you might note, but just reported what the nutritionist and researchers have found and are reporting. Glad you brought up the People Chow, because it is well known if we did have that our kids would be as well fed as our animals and would be healthier. But then again, most aren't feeding their kids with the same goals in mind.

It will be for another day that I will tell you what I know from the research between identical formulas but in different forms, one example was ground and mixed homogenous and the other the ingredients were separate that were done during my time working in the field, but you won't like it either.

Ezzy

Ezzy[/quote]

Ezzy, you are passing on nonsense as if it is "received wisdom." The idea that dogs fed a substandard cereal-based diet would recover faster than dogs fed a diet that conforms with what they were shaped by evolution to eat, is pure hokum. You should refrain from the insulting tone when you're trying to advance such preposterous notions.

I'm unsurprised you think kids would be better fed "People Chow," rather than a natural diet.

At least you are consistent in you wrong-headedness.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:19 pm

Thank you. I have always found the truth keeps you consistent.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:19 pm

Truth? Ha, ha.

Says the guy who believe kids would be better off raised on "People Chow."
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Bill

edited by Sharon

mask · Post by **mask** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:45 pm

Spy car, I would like to know how many dogs you have on this raw diet. What do you do with your dogs and how often? What is your actual formula and cost? You can PM if you like. Thanks.