Gun Dog Forum

Question for those that reload or just are more knowledgeable than me.
If I shoot a payload of 4`s at 1100fps out of a .410 and the same 4`s at 1100fps out of a 12 ga. is the impact energy the same at lets say 30 yds?
Thanks

Impact energy per pellet will be exactly the same. Total impact energy is determined by the total of all pellet strikes which of course will be a function of pellet density at the target. This may or may not be different for your 410 vs the 12.

Impact energy per pellet will be exactly the same. Total impact energy is determined by the total of all pellet strikes which of course will be a function of pellet density at the target. This may or may not be different for your 410 vs the 12.

Thanks, that what I thought. I have been using my .410 on Pheasants and yesterday I hit a rooster at 30 yds that if you were watching you would have thought it was a 12ga. Just less payload and smaller pattern.

I try not to apply my morals to others, but I cannot justify hunting wild pheasant with a .410. It is not sporting, it does not show great skill, it is just irresponsible.

You want to prove your prowess with a shotgun, try shooting a .410 at sporting clays at $10.00 a bird!

Eh...probably depends upon what portion of a rooster that any pellet(s) impact as to a reaction of the bird.
Could even depend upon the particulars, health and other, of the pheasant itself.

The .410 will certainly kill stuff but most of us see more to be involved than that single occurrence.

As to energy, if one wanted to wonder .....then the greater likelyhood of deformed pellets in the classic .410 load might well find that velocity is shed thru that deformation more rapidly thus rendering energy and penetration...less than found in a classic 12 gauge load....pellet hardness equal.
Lot to go wrong when one wishes to work at the margins, practically and ethically, re a shot toward any gamebird.

Odd that folks never tire of trying the margins.

Neil wrote:I try not to apply my morals to others, but I cannot justify hunting wild pheasant with a .410. It is not sporting, it does not show great skill, it is just irresponsible.

You want to prove your prowess with a shotgun, try shooting a .410 at sporting clays at $10.00 a bird!

Every year since I can remember, so 1970s, our duck club has done a 28/410 shoot on opening weekend. It has always been the one of the best shoots because people are much more strict with their shot selection.

I try not to apply my morals to others, but I cannot justify hunting wild pheasant with a .410. It is not sporting, it does not show great skill, it is just irresponsible.

You want to prove your prowess with a shotgun, try shooting a .410 at sporting clays at $10.00 a bird!

let me explain a little.
1st These are not Wild birds, they are DNR released birds. They are much easier to kill than a Wild Rooster.
2nd, I do not promote the .410 as a go to Pheasant gun. I just enjoy the challenge. But it is my go to Sharptail gun.
3rd. I am not a newby to Shotgunning. I have been shooting for over 45 yrs now. And most that know me, they would consider me an expert shooter. One of my customers is a Sporting Clays instructor and regularly shoots the .410 class, he would be the first to tell you that he would not go head to head for $10/bird.


Hope you all understand. I just wanted to understand why it is so deadly.

Vman wrote:

I try not to apply my morals to others, but I cannot justify hunting wild pheasant with a .410. It is not sporting, it does not show great skill, it is just irresponsible.

You want to prove your prowess with a shotgun, try shooting a .410 at sporting clays at $10.00 a bird!

I knew I would get some sh_t from someone so let me explain a little.
1st These are not Wild birds, they are DNR released birds. They are much easier to kill than a Wild Rooster.
2nd, I do not promote the .410 as a go to Pheasant gun. I just enjoy the challenge. But it is my go to Sharptail gun.
3rd. I am not a newby to Shotgunning. I have been shooting for over 45 yrs now. And most that know me, they would consider me an expert shooter. One of my customers is a Sporting Clays instructor and regularly shoots the .410 class, he would be the first to tell you that he would not go head to head for $10/bird.


Hope you all understand. I just wanted to understand why it is so deadly.

I was clear to say wild pheasant, I don't much care how you kill poultry, ring their necks if you like. And I fail to see what challenge pen birds present. If your instructor friend can't beat you on a standard sporting clays course when he is shooting a 12 and you a .410, he needs to relinquish his card.

Pardon me for not knowing you are an experienced shooter, your question was more fitting for a non-shooter that slept through 8th grade science class. It was that dumb.

Vman wrote:let me explain a little....These are not Wild birds, they are DNR released birds. They are much easier to kill than a Wild Rooster.

It was quite clear from between the lines that you were speaking of released birds which is why I noted the importance of the particulars of the bird.
However, the point....is that released birds are just as easy to wound as a wild rooster

Vman wrote: I just wanted to understand why it is so deadly.

It isn't "so deadly".
It does possess more limits within which one must operate than many other choices...limits which are not always as easy to stay within the lines as .410 swatters routinely state...or wish.
One hears a fair amount of .410 deadly success stories on message boards...far less are heard the stories of failures or admittance of that noticed wobble as a rooster flies away.

Even "poultry" deserves respect and a shooting challenge is best served on a clay field, IMHO.
Glad you shoot so well....but, it is a small part of a day afield albeit often a large part of a story told.

I was clear to say wild pheasant, I don't much care how you kill poultry, ring their necks if you like. And I fail to see what challenge pen birds present. If your instructor friend can't beat you on a standard sporting clays course when he is shooting a 12 and you a .410, he needs to relinquish his card.

Pardon me for not knowing you are an experienced shooter, your question was more fitting for a non-shooter that slept through 8th grade science class. It was that dumb.

I was referring to a .410 vs. .410 at the SC course.
Yes they are released birds and they are so easy that the 12ga. crowd usually miss the first two shots and throw the hail Mary on the third they are so easy. My dogs will pick those wounded birds up for them so at least they don`t go to waste.

Thanks for your expert advice. I just put the .410 away and got out the 12 ga magnum because I now see the light that has been shined North from some piece of work from Arkansas. LOL
Do you even hunt? Or are you just a keyboard wannabe?

I hunt, do you read your own posts?

You were the one that said they were much easier to kill than a wild rooster, I wouldn't' t know, I don't hunt poultry.

Please let me say again, I think it irresponsible to hunt wild pheasants with a .410, It is not sporting, it is not impressive, it does not show skill. That was and is my only point.

Please let me say again, I think it irresponsible to hunt wild pheasants with a .410, It is not sporting, it is not impressive, it does not show skill. That was and is my only point.

That is your right, and I don`t hunt the Wild Birds with the
.410 either. Just the State birds on the state land. When I go after the wild birds here or in the Dakotas I then use a 20ga. Is that OK with you?
Just to be clear, I train dogs for a living, I use the .410 to shoot some of the dogs first Pheasant. I let the dogs see several flushes first and when things look good I will then kill with the .410. it is the quietest shotgun I can use. I don`t want a 12ga. being shot over a pups head when he is in chase. Just about all of my customers shoot a 12ga. and they should. But I prepare the dog for that 12ga. first. The dogs and my customers are appreciative and it works.
Now I gave you something else to criticise.

Slistoe if you are still here, Thanks for your input. I just wanted a second opinion not all the other bullshit.

Vman wrote:

Please let me say again, I think it irresponsible to hunt wild pheasants with a .410, It is not sporting, it is not impressive, it does not show skill. That was and is my only point.

That is your right, and I don`t hunt the Wild Birds with the
.410 either.

You could have avoided all the BS by saying that in the first place.

Yeah, I'm still here. I find Sharptail harder to kill than Pheasant.
Shoot them with what you can hit them with - it takes pellet strikes to kill birds, not gauge numbers.

I did see a bit of BS but the outhouse is likely the difference, Mr. V.

However, it can be frustrating when the second opinions someone says they seek are better termed...confirming opinions.
These later confirming opinions are never a given when honesty arises from experience wider than a single view or when agenda is not involved.

The .410 has a legitimate place in a gun rack and I enjoyed the two I once owned....tho searching for empties from the 1100 got old in tall grass and they could be taxing to reload. Still, a .410 can be good crackers.
Controlled dog training presentations may well be one legitimate place for a .410....state-released pheasants may or may not be another....just depends upon more than shooter desires.
I sadly suspect that the "may" aspect of a .410's use too often involves an optimistic or somewhat shadowy view of reality and results.
Too bad that when feathers are involved.
And no, I am not in need of confirming opinions.
Those days went out with homework being due.

Neil wrote:I hunt, do you read your own posts?

You were the one that said they were much easier to kill than a wild rooster, I wouldn't' t know, I don't hunt poultry.

Please let me say again, I think it irresponsible to hunt wild pheasants with a .410, It is not sporting, it is not impressive, it does not show skill. That was and is my only point.

If you have ever hunted the Dakotas you have hunted and possibly killed poultry and didn't know it. But don't worry, many have said the same thing you have because they couldn't tell the difference.

The .410 will crush targets w/authority.

I've also noticed a high rate of just clipping targets as well (clays)

Now I'm not saying that a bad shot never happens w/other gauges but as a rule I tend to miss entirely w/other gauges at a much higher rate compared to the .410.

My guns fit

I will not shoot at anything that flys with a .410 but that's just me

ezzy333 wrote:

Neil wrote:I hunt, do you read your own posts?

You were the one that said they were much easier to kill than a wild rooster, I wouldn't' t know, I don't hunt poultry.

Please let me say again, I think it irresponsible to hunt wild pheasants with a .410, It is not sporting, it is not impressive, it does not show skill. That was and is my only point.

If you have ever hunted the Dakotas you have hunted and possibly killed poultry and didn't know it. But don't worry, many have said the same thing you have because they couldn't tell the difference.

Not where I hunt, and I can tell the difference in pen and born in the wild birds.

If you are hunting in South Dakota you are shooting some released birds. Every hunting lodge in South Dakota is releasing pen raised birds. Good pen raised birds are not much different then wild..............Cj

cjhills wrote:If you are hunting in South Dakota you are shooting some released birds. Every hunting lodge in South Dakota is releasing pen raised birds. Good pen raised birds are not much different then wild..............Cj

Not where I hunt on public land.

All pen birds are not the same, many on put and take operations and field trial grounds really are like yard chickens. Those raised in flight pens and early released are better. After all all North American pheasants were once pen birds.

But this was about hunting with a .410, and I have no moral objection if put and take birds. They were released to die.

Neil wrote:

cjhills wrote:If you are hunting in South Dakota you are shooting some released birds. Every hunting lodge in South Dakota is releasing pen raised birds. Good pen raised birds are not much different then wild..............Cj

Not where I hunt on public land.

All pen birds are not the same, many on put and take operations and field trial grounds really are like yard chickens. Those raised in flight pens and early released are better. After all all North American pheasants were once pen birds.

But this was about hunting with a .410, and I have no moral objection if put and take birds. They were released to die.

Neil, the state raised and released birds for years. We helped feed them just as they did here in Illinois. And we fed those too. It is my understanding the state may not be raising them in recent years however there are many many raised and released on private land to keep the numbers high for the full season. You will find them basically impossible to tell from birds hatched in the wild when they are released several days before they are hunted as they are raised in large fly pens without human contact.

The shooting preserves do release birds, the state does not, I have seen their financial reports. I do no hunt on or near a shooting preserve.

And this is not on topic.

the released pheasants do not stay on hunting lodge land. Hunting lodges are required to release birds to replace the ones their clients shoot. it is pretty hard not to be near a hunting lodge in good pheasant country..............Cj

cjhills wrote:the released pheasants do not stay on hunting lodge land. Hunting lodges are required to release birds to replace the ones their clients shoot. it is pretty hard not to be near a hunting lodge in good pheasant country..............Cj

How is this on topic?

I drive through the best pheasant hunting in North America to get where I can hunt Huns, sharptail, and born in the wild pheasant. The nearest preserve is over 100 miles. I have flushed thousands of pen birds and even more wild birds, I can tell the difference.

Always good to recall the reality of wild pheasants when "better" comparisons call their siren's note.

That being, wild pheasants can be deucedly easy......of any age, in many coverts and at several times of the year.
Superiority of wild pheasants is not a given...the actual situation tells the tale for most of us interested in honesty rather than comparisons.
Granted, released birds vary as well but generalities for either ...be it about the birds or the cover in which they are found...is easy and spoiled picking.
Superiority may be best when the high school football team wins...for adults, not so much.
The attitude can care over to dogs.

Mountaineer wrote:Always good to recall the reality of wild pheasants when "better" comparisons call their siren's note.

That being, wild pheasants can be deucedly easy......of any age, in many coverts and at several times of the year.
Superiority of wild pheasants is not a given...the actual situation tells the tale for most of us interested in honesty rather than comparisons.
Granted, released birds vary as well but generalities for either ...be it about the birds or the cover in which they are found...is easy and spoiled picking.
Superiority may be best when the high school football team wins...for adults, not so much.
The attitude can care over to dogs.

While all true, I evaluate sporting in stealth in avoiding discovery and speed when flushed, and in those measures I give a 30% advantage to the born in the wild birds.

On some days, I would raise the percentage...on others, not so much.

Re "stealth" ....I doubt I am capable, doubt I ever was, tho...I may have believed I was stealthy at one time.

I do find "speed" to be tied to everything from anticapted flush point, flight path and foot position and more...each can render speed at different degrees of.....out of Dodge.

But, a bobtail flush is one of the easiest guesses at a pen-raised bird.
Saw two of those today.
I agree we often guess pretty closely.....just no guarantees when pen-raised is common.

Mountaineer wrote:On some days, I would raise the percentage...on others, not so much.

Re "stealth" ....I doubt I am capable, doubt I ever was, tho...I may have believed I was stealthy at one time.

I do find "speed" to be tied to everything from anticapted flush point, flight path and foot position and more...each can render speed at different degrees of.....out of Dodge.

But, a bobtail flush is one of the easiest guesses at a pen-raised bird.
Saw two of those today.
I agree we often guess pretty closely.....just no guarantees when pen-raised is common.

Again well stated points, and I accept them. A deciding aspect is wind, wild birds are much better at using it to their advantage. You observe them calmly in the thousands and you can tell the fastest pen birds from the slowest of those birds born in the wild. It is a matter of survival, those in a pen all live, only the best of those from the wild do.

Yes, once a wild rooster raises their landing gear......wind is the ticket to ride.

Easy to tell between wild and pen raised when harvested and in the hand.

nevermind wrote:Easy to tell between wild and pen raised when harvested and in the hand.

How so?

You can typically see light through the nostrils on pen raised birds, courtesy of the blinders they wear while in captivity.

The state of SD does not release birds. Now or in the past. I often read of their large-scale release on forums, but it's just not the case. Some SD cities (Aberdeen being one) have been known to release a handful of banded birds for local promotions, trying to draw hunters and their dollars in to claim a cash prize for turning in one of the banded birds, but the state plays no role in those situations.

Preserves are indeed required to release birds, but unless you're hunting within a mile or so of one, it's unlikely you're going to come across very many of their released birds. Most won't live long enough to wander far from their release sites, courtesy of the hawks, owls, eagles, skunks, coons, fox, coyotes, etc that call SD home. Long-term survival rates for released birds is something like two percent.

If you hunt public ground in SD, you're dealing with wild birds in almost every case. And back on thread, the .410 is not a very responsible choice with which to pursue them.

ckirsch wrote:You can typically see light through the nostrils on pen raised birds, courtesy of the blinders they wear while in captivity.

The state of SD does not release birds. Now or in the past. I often read of their large-scale release on forums, but it's just not the case. Some SD cities (Aberdeen being one) have been known to release a handful of banded birds for local promotions, trying to draw hunters and their dollars in to claim a cash prize for turning in one of the banded birds, but the state plays no role in those situations.

Preserves are indeed required to release birds, but unless you're hunting within a mile or so of one, it's unlikely you're going to come across very many of their released birds. Most won't live long enough to wander far from their release sites, courtesy of the hawks, owls, eagles, skunks, coons, fox, coyotes, etc that call SD home. Long-term survival rates for released birds is something like two percent.

If you hunt public ground in SD, you're dealing with wild birds in almost every case. And back on thread, the .410 is not a very responsible choice with which to pursue them.

And that says all I need to know in a concise and polite way. Should serve as a model.

Based upon my limited experience chasing both state released Pheasants in PA and wild SD Pheasants

(I can assure you, the “survivors” in PA go wild pretty quick & their innate elusiveness and downright maddening and frustrating slithering techniques are nothing less than admirable)

Aside that banter I have noticed quite a correlation as it relates to Pheasantry (is that a word?) lol

It sure seems the smarter my dog gets the dumber the Pheasants get no matter the stomping grounds.

WOW, this post only took 6 days or so to go from a guy asking a question about .410 to wild pheasant stocking.....WTF! 5 minutes of reading a post that caught my eye wasted. Come to think of it, all who read it will never get that time back. Could have been 5 more mins in the field, shooting, training, enjoying the outdoors. Good topic Vman, great explanation slistoe.

Jidano3 wrote:WOW, this post only took 6 days or so to go from a guy asking a question about .410 to wild pheasant stocking.....WTF! 5 minutes of reading a post that caught my eye wasted. Come to think of it, all who read it will never get that time back. Could have been 5 more mins in the field, shooting, training, enjoying the outdoors. Good topic Vman, great explanation slistoe.

And yet you wasted another 5 min of your life to proclaim some sort of high ground in order to make others understand your displeasure with the thread ..that makes sense

Tooling wrote:

Jidano3 wrote:WOW, this post only took 6 days or so to go from a guy asking a question about .410 to wild pheasant stocking.....WTF! 5 minutes of reading a post that caught my eye wasted. Come to think of it, all who read it will never get that time back. Could have been 5 more mins in the field, shooting, training, enjoying the outdoors. Good topic Vman, great explanation slistoe.

And yet you wasted another 5 min of your life to proclaim some sort of high ground in order to make others understand your displeasure with the thread ..that makes sense

My thoughts too even though he was right, just didn't know wasting time was that big of a deal. getting back on subject would be good though.

This is one of the major reasons that I opt for the Hevishot shells. They are denser
and retain much more energy down range thus hit harder

more specifically, the HS shells hit harder, at extended ranges with more energy.... I can use smaller
shot size (more shot per shell) with more "knockdown power"