20Ga. Shot shell questions????

[LaReineBritt]

I recently went to buy some ammo for my 20 Ga. Franchi, and was confused by the few different choices I was offered. Ion the past I have just bought the bricks of shot shells at wal-mart for the low price of around $25 for 100 rounds. Well when looking to get some this time I noticed 3 different loads all of which are 2 3/4length and shot size of 8: the first is the 1oz. Load that has a 1900 fps velocity, 2nd is the 7/8 oz. Load that has a 1225 fps velocity, and last is the 3/4 oz loads that have a 1390 fps velocity. With that said my questions are.....
Which will provide longer " kill ranges" for quail and dove?
Will the higher velocity keep a better pattern than the higher weight in shot load?
Would it be a good idea to use the 3/4 load as my first shot then the 1oz load as my follow up shot?
The 3/4 loads are cheaper than the the 7/8 load and the 1oz load being my most expensive I'm thinking that is because there is more lead in the heavier loads?
Also any other insight you may have on the matter is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the input!

[SetterNut]

For dove and quail it doesn't take much to get the job done. I assume you dove season is going to open first. There isn't mch reason to by real expensive shells for dove. Light loads will do the job.

[birddog1968]

speed kills....and a shell with more shot has less holes in the pattern.

[Mountaineer]

Speed can blow patterns dependent upon the quality of the shot and wads.
For doves stick to standard 7/8 target loads.

[displaced_texan]

I don't think you could pay me to shoot 1900 fps loads at doves and quail...


There is no substitute for patterning your gun.

[nikegundog]

pick one load a stick with it. If you do as you mentioned: first shot 3/4 (1390fps), second shot (1900fps), you will struggle to find the right lead. Practice with the same speed load you intend to hunt with.

[SeriousBirdman]

+1 on patterning. Every gun/choke/shell combo can be different....

[Wenaha]

High initial velocity offers very little advantage in shotshells. At the point of impact the extra velocity is hardly noticeable. This is due to the very poor ballistic coefficient of round shot -- they just don't retain velocity very well.

If I were you, I would select the 7/8 oz. loads at moderate velocity (1200 fps or so) - the 7/8 oz. is the 'standard' load for a 20 gauge and will do a good job on doves and quail.

[DonF]

I don't think you could pay me to shoot 1900 fps loads at doves and quail...


There is no substitute for patterning your gun.

That's what I was thinking. 1900fps!

High initial velocity offers very little advantage in shotshells. At the point of impact the extra velocity is hardly noticeable. This is due to the very poor ballistic coefficient of round shot -- they just don't retain velocity very well.

If I were you, I would select the 7/8 oz. loads at moderate velocity (1200 fps or so) - the 7/8 oz. is the 'standard' load for a 20 gauge and will do a good job on doves and quail.

That's what I would suggest too. The lighter shot can be started just as fast as heavy shot with like loads. What will happen is the the light shot will slow down faster and be more effected by the wind. High velocity is not alwas your friend. As mentioned above, it can blow holes in your pattern.

I haven't used a load over 1200fps in years and never load more than 1 1/8th oz shot. When I had a 20ga, it got 7/8 oz of shot right around 1200fps. My old 12ga got 1 1/8oz of shot about 1200fps. My 16ga get's 1 oz of shot right at 1200fps and my 28ga gets 3/4oz at about the same velocity.

[nikegundog]

That's what I would suggest too. The lighter shot can be started just as fast as heavy shot with like loads. What will happen is the the light shot will slow down faster and be more effected by the wind. High velocity is not alwas your friend. As mentioned above, it can blow holes in your pattern.

I haven't used a load over 1200fps in years and never load more than 1 1/8th oz shot. When I had a 20ga, it got 7/8 oz of shot right around 1200fps. My old 12ga got 1 1/8oz of shot about 1200fps. My 16ga get's 1 oz of shot right at 1200fps and my 28ga gets 3/4oz at about the same velocity.

Although I wouldn't recommend the 1900fps shells for the simple fact that I like to stay consistent, I think there is some flaws in this theory. All of the shells mentioned had the same size pellets and in fact the 1900 load contained more pellets so the you can't say the "light shot" will slow down faster, when in fact it is the "same shot". Are the pellets in the loads made of a lighter substance or are they increasing velocity by increasing powder? Anyone have any velocity charts to show what speeds are at 30 yds?

[Wenaha]

In practical hunting velocity means little. Pattern density and retained energy is what is important.

It takes only a few pellet strikes to kill a bird. Bob Brister stated that he considered 1 pound/ foot of striking (retained) energy (per pellet, of course) as adequate for effective penetration on upland birds. If you examine the chart below you will see that 1200 fps at the muzzle gets the job done when the right size shot is used. Pattern density must be balanced with retained energy for an effective hunting load. I consider very high velocity as inimical to good pattern density and a fad to market something new to people who ought to know better.

[nikegundog]

I was looking for a comparison chart for the rate of speed the pellets are moving. While there may be little difference in retained energy, be able to cut down your lead by for example a 1/4 (and still retain a nice pattern) would have big advantages in a practical hunting application. IMO

[nikegundog]

In practical hunting velocity means little. Pattern density and retained energy is what is important.

It takes only a few pellet strikes to kill a bird. Bob Brister stated that he considered 1 pound/ foot of striking (retained) energy (per pellet, of course) as adequate for effective penetration on upland birds. If you examine the chart below you will see that 1200 fps at the muzzle gets the job done when the right size shot is used. Pattern density must be balanced with retained energy for an effective hunting load. I consider very high velocity as inimical to good pattern density and a fad to market something new to people who ought to know better.

According to the chart, 7 1/2 shot would be an acceptable shot size for pheasants out to about 38 yds. I have tons of people use 7 1/2 shot on pheasants and at the distance you almost always see feathers go flying and the bird flying away. I think Bob Brister needs to rethink his theory.

[Wenaha]

The other half of the story.

[DonF]

In practical hunting velocity means little. Pattern density and retained energy is what is important.

It takes only a few pellet strikes to kill a bird. Bob Brister stated that he considered 1 pound/ foot of striking (retained) energy (per pellet, of course) as adequate for effective penetration on upland birds. If you examine the chart below you will see that 1200 fps at the muzzle gets the job done when the right size shot is used. Pattern density must be balanced with retained energy for an effective hunting load. I consider very high velocity as inimical to good pattern density and a fad to market something new to people who ought to know better.

Unless he weighted an individual shot pellet, that might be a tuff thing to do. Maybe he measured an once of shot then counted the pellets in it? To figure energy: velocity times velocity- devide by 7000 (# grains in a pound)- devide that by 64.32 (swpecific wt of gravity) multiply by weight of the projectile equals Ft Lbs E.

I'm not sure how much one lb of energy really is! The best I could ever do is remember that if all velocities are the same, the heavier pellet will penetrate the deepest. And I'm not sure how he figured out how much energy was needed to kill the birds.

[Wenaha]

Don - intelligent post. I do not know how the developer of this data calculated to striking energy. I DO know that an electronic balance can weight a single shot pellet very accurately, and they can be bought pretty cheaply - I have one myself for reloading.

The specific gravity of lead is known, The ballistic co-efficient of a sphere is known. Muzzle velocity can be measured using a chronograph. The balance of the striking (retained) energy can be derived from that data.

Bob Brister did more research on shotgun ballistics than anyone before or since. He wrote the 'book' on the subject. I trust his conclusions.

PS: I like to use one ounce of no. 7 shot in my 16s - IMO, the best balance between pattern density and retained energy. I do not (usually) shoot birds beyond 40 yards.

[DonF]

Where do you get that #7 shot? I've read about it but never seen it anywhere. For weighting a shot pellet, I have a 510 scale and it's accurate to 1/10th inch. Wouldn't the specific gravity of lead still be 64.32? I'm sure that a sphere has a Balistic coefficent. Don't know where to find it and it must be really small. The BC of a 20 gr 17 cal V-max is .185. I can't imagine how small it would be on a piece of shot. I've still got 5 or 6 bags of 6's and three or four bags of 7 1/2.
All of my 6's are in canvas bags. Make great sand bags!

[Wenaha]

Don - Ballistic products carries no.7 shot - both magnum and chilled.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Magnum ... o/030ML07/

Lead shot is usually alloyed with 3-6% antimony for hardness.

Ballistic co-efficient of lead shot is APPROXIMATELY 1/10 of the shot diameter in inches. No. 7 shot is .10" so has a BC of about .01

Pretty low number, which explains the poor velocity retention and the futility of high muzzle velocities in shotshells.

[DonF]

Don - Ballistic products carries no.7 shot - both magnum and chilled.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Magnum ... o/030ML07/

Lead shot is usually alloyed with 3-6% antimony for hardness.

Ballistic co-efficient of lead shot is APPROXIMATELY 1/10 of the shot diameter in inches. No. 7 shot is .10" so has a BC of about .01

Pretty low number, which explains the poor velocity retention and the futility of high muzzle velocities in shotshells.

Boy that is good, BC of .01 for #7 shot!

[Billinsd]

In practical hunting velocity means little.

I disagree, physics is physics. Kinetic energy is .5xmassxvelocty squared. Of course the velocity of semi round balls slows down fast down range. Speed gets you more range, at a cost. There is a balence between velocity, pattern, and number of pellets.

[Billinsd]

In practical hunting velocity means little. Pattern density and retained energy is what is important.

It takes only a few pellet strikes to kill a bird. Bob Brister stated that he considered 1 pound/ foot of striking (retained) energy (per pellet, of course) as adequate for effective penetration on upland birds. If you examine the chart below you will see that 1200 fps at the muzzle gets the job done when the right size shot is used. Pattern density must be balanced with retained energy for an effective hunting load. I consider very high velocity as inimical to good pattern density and a fad to market something new to people who ought to know better.

1 foot pound per surface area per pellet. Half of the total surface to be correct. 1 ft lb for 'upland' birds is like stating that so and so ft lbs is good for big game. Upland birds are dove to pheasant. I am just an engineer, but I would figure, that pheasants are harder to kill than dove? Real nice graphics, but very oversimplfied to me. Maybe the author is trying to simplify his charts for
non technical readers?

[brad27]

In practical hunting velocity means little.

I disagree, physics is physics. Kinetic energy is .5xmassxvelocty squared. Of course the velocity of semi round balls slows down fast down range. Speed gets you more range, at a cost. There is a balence between velocity, pattern, and number of pellets.

Or it could just mean you have to lead them a little more. As long as you "know" your round, right?

[Billinsd]

In practical hunting velocity means little.

I disagree, physics is physics. Kinetic energy is .5xmassxvelocty squared. Of course the velocity of semi round balls slows down fast down range. Speed gets you more range, at a cost. There is a balence between velocity, pattern, and number of pellets.

Or it could just mean you have to lead them a little more. As long as you "know" your round, right?

That is part of it. I meant speed will give you more range. Usually not a lot. Sorry for the spelling errors. I am using my UN smart phone with tiny keys.

[Billinsd]

I remember reading a bowhunting book called 'Balanced Bowhunting'. I feel shotgunning is a balance also. Bill

[JIM K]

High initial velocity offers very little advantage in shotshells. At the point of impact the extra velocity is hardly noticeable. This is due to the very poor ballistic coefficient of round shot -- they just don't retain velocity very well.

If I were you, I would select the 7/8 oz. loads at moderate velocity (1200 fps or so) - the 7/8 oz. is the 'standard' load for a 20 gauge and will do a good job on doves and quail.

you are right. i use nothing but 7/8 oz target loads in my 20ga for grouse.early fall i use no.7and 1/2 shot with leaves on.
after leaves are off and grouse skittist, i use no.6 shot with 7/8 oz .
i like FEDERAL TARGET loads best and winchester aa too.

if its windy ,go to #6 shot in 7/8oz .i seen a reduction of 30 pellets or so at 35 yds in a breeze vrs no breeze on my tests.