Ruger red label 20g

[Wagner]

I am new to upland hunting and recently put a deposit down on a rrl 20g. The salesman told me that this gun shouldl be a better choice over the 12g when hunting upland game behind a Dog. My question is the 20g enough firepower.

[Wagner]

So can you expect to shoot better with a 12g. My worry is that I might chose the wrong gun and at this price it will have to last a while. When I tell my friends what I am getting they seem suprised and tell me to get a 12g. I like the way the gun feels and the finish. So can this gun fufull an upland bird hunters requirments. By the way my buddies never hunt behind dogs.

[Wagner]

I have red the debates on this forum about 20g vs 12g, more specifcally looking for RRL choices...

Thanks in advance by the way what a great site here I have learned so much in a short amount of time!

[romeo212000]

You can hunt anything upland with a 12 or 20 gauge. That said if you are going after something bigger I would suggest a 12 gauge. Anything else I would say you are fine with a 20 gauge. Trust me there is more than enough fire power to bring any upland bird down.A lot of people are more worried about fire power when they should be worried about pattern. And that comes down to the load more than the gun. Too many people overload their gun and end up wasting shot and destroying the pattern. The ideal load with a 12 gauge to get the best pattern geometrically is a 1 oz load traveling approximately 1100 fps. For 20 ga it is a 7/8 oz load traveling roughly the same speed. I have killed many birds with both loads and no problems. Fact is more people need to learn how to shoot rather than thinking that loading up extra hot shells will make up for their lack of skill.

I said all of that to say this. It doesnt really matter whether you are talking about a red label or a beretta or a browning. The principle is still the same. Personally I like a 12 gauge shotgun because it does give me a little more versatility when it comes to bigger birds like pheasants, and I can even use the same gun for waterfowl. I also like the 12 gauge because it is typically heavier which forces me to have a steadier smoother swing.

[Greg Jennings]

The ideal load with a 12 gauge to get the best pattern geometrically is a 1 oz load traveling approximately 1100 fps..

With about a bazillion skeet and trap targets, with money on the line, under my belt, I'd disagree with you on that.

[romeo212000]

Agree to disagree. The english wrote the book on wing shooting and trust me they have a done a great deal of research on the subject which I have looked through extensively, as well as tested out and that is what they say and I agree with them based on my experiences and own findings. I too have shot many skeet rounds as well. In a 12 gauge a 1 oz load will give you the most even pattern. Some like to shoot 7/8oz in 12 gauge which seems to be work very well. I dont you get any better pattern but perhaps a little more speed. It still shoots a very sound even pattern. You cannot tell everything by a patterning board. That only shows two dimensions of a shot pattern. There is a third dimension that few consider but ultimately makes the difference in quality.

[MillerClemsonHD]

I am new to upland hunting and recently put a deposit down on a rrl 20g. The salesman told me that this gun shouldl be a better choice over the 12g when hunting upland game behind a Dog. My question is the 20g enough firepower.

Shooter makes a bigger difference than the gun. Whatever you choose shoot it as often as possible. The more you practice the better you will be. I killed the first pheasant I ever shot with a 20ga at 14 or 15yrs old. I still shoot a 20 bc I like the lightweight fast swinging gun. Both of the ones I have come up to my shoulder perfect and I can knock down and upland bird very quickly before it becomes a long shot. I have a 12ga that I shoot for waterfowl and would not want it to be my upland gun. I do shoot it for doves often to increase my range some.

Practice, Practice and then Practice some more. Your ability to shoot the gun means more than the gun itself.

[Wagner]

That makes sense to me. I am going to pick up the 20g. I was concerned about the salesman just selling me what he had and not selling me what I needed. I guess I am always Leary when dealing with salesman due to the fact I used to be one!
Is it the salesman reasoning for a smaller guage because you will typically be closer to birds because of your dog?

[romeo212000]

I dont think your salesman has an agenda. I think he is ignorant and blowing smoke about what he doesnt know. If you want the 20 gauge get the 20 gauge.

[BigShooter]

Wagner,

I use a 20 ga for pheasants in N.D. most of the season except in Dec. & early Jan. when I switch to a 12 ga. I have a brother that shoots a 20 ga. virtually the whole season. Another brother who has shot sporting clays competitively in the U.S. & Europe shoots pheasants with 20 & 16 gauges except in Dec. & early Jan. when he always switches to a 12 ga.

That being said, if the Ruger fits you well it's highly likely you will be very happy with the 20 ga. and heck it may give you an excuse to buy a 12 ga. later when you have extra cash.

Mark

[ezzy333]

I have both and use the 20 almost exclusively. Hunted for years with my father-in-law out in Kansas and he never used anything but his double barrel 410. He seldom missed. Remember the main difference is just the number of pellets in the shell and it only takes a couple to kill a bird.

Ezzy

[gar-dog]

Frankly, if this is your only shotgun I would get a 12. A twelve is much more versatile - better suited for clays, waterfowl, home defense etc. For strictly upland, a 20 is probably fine. Anyway, you can do anything with a 20 that you can do with a 12, just in some cases be slightly handicapped.

For someone's first and only gun, the only reason I might recommend a 20 is if they have small hands or other physical attributes that outweigh the benefits of the 12.

[gar-dog]

When I tell my friends what I am getting they seem suprised and tell me to get a 12g.

Your friends know you better than us. I would listen to them and ask them why.

I wouldn't get hung up on "hunting over dogs" being the determining factor in why people choose 12 over 20. Way more important than that is where you want, the terrain, what kind of dogs, what kind of birds, etc.

For instance, if you are hunting mainly quail in open country over fully-broke pointing breeds, a 20 would be just fine. If you are hunting grouse in wooded areas, shooting through branches and leafy October trees, or wild pheasants in SD over flushing dogs, I'd get the 12. I just think the 12 covers everything.

Don't confuse the fact that many people use a 20 and do just fine with it with what is best for you. You are embarking in the shooting sports and a whole world of discovery. Who knows a year or two from now which will be your favorite - waterfowl? clays? I re-read your post and edited mine with this paragraph. i really think you should get a 12.

[Greg Jennings]

I too have shot many skeet rounds as well.

I've put thousands of rounds through the chronograph. A 1 oz load at 1100 fps, with commonly available hulls, powder and wads, is somewhat too slow to provide consistent velocity. The standard deviation increases as the velocity falls below 1200 or so. You can see this manifested if you look at the velocity of factory 1 oz loads.

Also, you can look at the new international loads. 24 grams = 7/8 oz shot in the 12 gauge. It's 1300-1350 fps. Really, really pulverizes targets.

Now, that's in 2-3/4/70mm American hulls (not the 65mm old-time Britt hull), modern primers, powder and wads. Don't know anything about the old hulls, paper hulls, fiber wads, etc. Anecdotally, suspect that slower velocity might have been better based on my experience patterning older shotguns with the new shells. Almost always pattern tighter than they're marked...
---

You'll be fine with a 20. You'll only be giving up something duck hunting, turkey hunting, wild-flushing pheasants, etc. Big birds, long range.

Bottom line: A 20 is great. The 12 is a bit more flexible.

[romeo212000]

I too have shot many skeet rounds as well.

I've put thousands of rounds through the chronograph. A 1 oz load at 1100 fps, with commonly available hulls, powder and wads, is somewhat too slow to provide consistent velocity. The standard deviation increases as the velocity falls below 1200 or so. You can see this manifested if you look at the velocity of factory 1 oz loads.

Also, you can look at the new international loads. 24 grams = 7/8 oz shot in the 12 gauge. It's 1300-1350 fps. Really, really pulverizes targets.

Now, that's in 2-3/4/70mm American hulls (not the 65mm old-time Britt hull), modern primers, powder and wads. Don't know anything about the old hulls, paper hulls, fiber wads, etc. Anecdotally, suspect that slower velocity might have been better based on my experience patterning older shotguns with the new shells. Almost always pattern tighter than they're marked...
---

You'll be fine with a 20. You'll only be giving up something duck hunting, turkey hunting, wild-flushing pheasants, etc. Big birds, long range.

Bottom line: A 20 is great. The 12 is a bit more flexible.

When will people learn that speed doesn't mean better. Shooting a light load too fast can destroy pattern. Now my personal loads shoot closer to 1200fps and there may be some validity to your point regarding the difference in the most modern components. To be fair the stat may have actually been 1200 fps, in fact I believe it is. I just made a slight mistake there. Now is 1300 fps too fast? I do not know, I have to bow out on that particular comment because I have not done the tests to verify. You also may be talking about the difference between trap loads and your average game a skeet load. A good trap shooter will have to make much further shots on targets going away than your average hunter hunting over broke dogs, or someone who shoots skeet, so I can see where parts of your point are valid.

[gar-dog]

You'll be fine with a 20. You'll only be giving up something duck hunting, turkey hunting, wild-flushing pheasants, etc. Big birds, long range.

This is why I suggest the 12.

I am thinking, suppose a new shotgunner shoots a few rounds of trap, and decides to buy his first shotgun, and can really only justify one gun. Should he really get a dedicated trap gun? This is a more extreme example I know, but I always encourage new folks to get a 12 - try everything - and down the road if they want a dedicated waterfowl gun, trap gun, field gun, or whatever, then go for it.

[3Britts]

I have used both and find myself reaching for the 20 ga when going after upland and the 12 ga when going for waterfowl. My son uses a 20 ga for both and loves it.

[original mngsp]

I own a RRL 12 with 30" barrels and it is one of the best true shooting guns I have ever used, but its heavy. That 12 gauge brings lots of versatility from anything form lite game loads to 3" magnum loads for turkey or waterfowl. Regardless of this great gun and feel I find myself reaching for my CZ 20gauge OU more often than not for upland game. If the shooting is good the 20 gauge will dispatch pheasants, grouse or quail very well without the extra weight of a 12 gauge.

Thant being said, if i was to have one OU for all i wanted to do, I would opt for a 12 gauge with 3" chambers. The versatility is awesome and the fact is that you can find 12 gauge ammo anywhere on the planet where as the appropriate 20 gauge stuff my be scarce in some of the remoter corners of our planet.

[Wagner]

With the 20g I will be exclusivly hunting upland game. I plan to purchase a Remington 0/U in a 12g for waterfowl if I need it. Thanks to all that have responded I have learned allot. I think it will be nice to have a nice gun for upland and a down and dirty Gun for the blind.

[original mngsp]

just a side note on your thoughts of a 12 OU for the duck blind. Breakactions arent always the easiest thing to uses in the confines of a duckblind. I use a cheap autoloader 12 gauge for my duck gun when I do happen to hunt ducks,

[3Britts]

just a side note on your thoughts of a 12 OU for the duck blind. Breakactions arent always the easiest thing to uses in the confines of a duckblind. I use a cheap autoloader 12 gauge for my duck gun when I do happen to hunt ducks,

Oh come on. You don't need a duck blind in Minnesota to hunt ducks, just step outside, go to the park, stick a net out your car window or mention to someone at the gas pumps that you haven't had duck in a while and you'll find one, or twenty. I always thought that they should have opened the parks there for Geese.

[BigShooter]

Now that Wagner has all the info he wants and we are already off thread:

stick a net out your car window

I was out in ND once at a local church pancake dinner for hunters. I was visiting with a retired farmer and we happened to get on the subject of the taste of birds. He said there's nothing like the taste of "spring duck". It took me a minute.

Mark

[tdhusker]

If you can' I'd suggest visiting a trap or skeet range and shoot a few different guns. Most guys are more than willing to let you try a few of theirs. Like most guns, the RRL isn't for everyone but I'm sure it isn't a bad place to start. As far as 20 vs 12 . . . there again, light and short guns aren't for everyone. If you are of average to large build, I'd make sure it has at least 28" BBLs. I'd be much more worried about whether or not I coould shoot it well over what the guage is.

[whitedogone]

RRL........ yuck! ...in my book at least. WDO

[vols fan]

i have skb 12 and 20.in the last 10 years in neb i have only shot the 12 one afternoon. i just shoot the 20 alot better and over pointing dogs i prefer the 20.

[mtjim]

Never felt undergunned with a 20 on upland birds. Nuff said.

[BigShooter]

After reading this and a number of similar threads I have the distinct impression that average shooters pursuing wild birds in the extreme north appear to encounter more severe weather hunting conditions, more long range shooting and more heavily plumaged pheasants in late December. Subsequently it appears they may favor a bit more gun, esp. late in the year.

It seems like the further south an average shooter hunts, the more non-pheasant game birds pursued, the more game farm or non-wild birds hunted, the more the shooters seem to be satisfied with smaller ga. guns.

Just my impression...

Mark

[romeo212000]

Not true. Oklahoma, Texas, Arizona all offer some fantastic wild bird hunting.

[BigShooter]

Romeo,

Please clarify what's not true? Is it not true that hunters in the extreme north encounter more heavily plumaged pheasants in late Dec. than hunters in OK, TX & AZ?

I'm sure you're right about the fantastic hunting. When I was referring to south I was thinking more of the posters from the original south and not the southwest. I was merely making an observation based upon the location of many of the posters on these shotgun threads.

So romeo, regardless of hunting location, is it your impression that the choice of 12 ga. vs. 20 ga. by an average shooter is unaffected by: the size & plumage of the birds most often pursued (heavily plumaged wild pheasants vs. quail or game farm birds) & the range of the shots (wild vs. non-wild birds, open prairie vs. wooded/sheltered) ? Perhaps it'd be more appropriate to talk about choice of gauge compared with typical hunting conditions experienced.

I will provide one set of facts. I've hunted very late season pheasants over pointing dogs with two of the best sporting clays shooters in Minnesota. The first always uses a 20 gauge when hunting. The second typically uses a 20 or a 16 during the season. After experiencing too many wounded birds on late hunts, the second shooter has switched to a 12 ga. late in the year. The second hunter always has more kills and almost no wounded birds on these hunts. This has been my personal experience as well. A 12 ga. will put more pellets in the air. When moving down to larger shot sizes late in the year (like 2s) the 20s shot string is proportionately marginalized.

Mark

[donpetstop]

Get the 12 gauge and some browning skeeters for 20 gauge. Then you have the best of both.

[romeo212000]

Romeo,

Please clarify what's not true? Is it not true that hunters in the extreme north encounter more heavily plumaged pheasants in late Dec. than hunters in OK, TX & AZ?

I'm sure you're right about the fantastic hunting. When I was referring to south I was thinking more of the posters from the original south and not the southwest. I was merely making an observation based upon the location of many of the posters on these shotgun threads.

So romeo, regardless of hunting location, is it your impression that the choice of 12 ga. vs. 20 ga. by an average shooter is unaffected by: the size & plumage of the birds most often pursued (heavily plumaged wild pheasants vs. quail or game farm birds) & the range of the shots (wild vs. non-wild birds, open prairie vs. wooded/sheltered) ? Perhaps it'd be more appropriate to talk about choice of gauge compared with typical hunting conditions experienced.

I will provide one set of facts. I've hunted very late season pheasants over pointing dogs with two of the best sporting clays shooters in Minnesota. The first always uses a 20 gauge when hunting. The second typically uses a 20 or a 16 during the season. After experiencing too many wounded birds on late hunts, the second shooter has switched to a 12 ga. late in the year. The second hunter always has more kills and almost no wounded birds on these hunts. This has been my personal experience as well. A 12 ga. will put more pellets in the air. When moving down to larger shot sizes late in the year (like 2s) the 20s shot string is proportionately marginalized.

Mark

Chill. I thought the part after "Not true" explained it but I will here. I was simply saying that people do not choose the smaller gauges such as 16 or 20 gauge here in Oklahoma, Texas and Arizona because of a larger number of hunters hunting pen raised birds on canned hunts as you said happens in the south. I was just unclear as to what you call the south. Out in The original south as you say, there are not the wild birds there once were and people are having to refer to game farms. But I doubt greatly that has anything to do with why people are choosing 20 gauge. Many many hunters that hunt nothing but wild birds around these parts (oklahoma, Texas, Arizona and such) hunt wild birds with a 20 gauge all year round. Of course I am referring to smaller birds such as quail mostly. I see merit to your statment regarding heavly plummaged pheasants, especially on the flushing away shots. I prefer a 12 gauge for pheasants though I have been successful witha 20.

[BigShooter]

Romeo,

Thanks, nice reply! It's easy for me to chill up here in Minnesota this time of year. We had about a foot of snow last weekend follwed by 19-34 degrees below zero at night. We're getting another 4-6" right now and another 6-9 inches tomorrow.

I plan on a final trip to N.D. after Christmas primarily for pheasants and maybe a few sharptails. Late season upland hunts with heavy snow cover is a whole different experience! I want to get the twenty-four week old GSP some more exposure before the season closes. She's not ready to be shot over so the big dogs will be doing their thing.

Happy Holidays!

Mark

[Chief_dog]

I have a 12ga, 20ga, and 28ga. I spend 60 to 70 days each year hunting wild pheasants, quail, and prairie chickens in three states. I carry the 28 gauge the majority of the time. The remainder of the time I usually carry the 20 gauge. The 12 gauge only comes out of the case once or twice a year, but it's nice having it around for when you need it. That said, if I could only own one gun for all types of bird hunting, it would be the 12 gauge.

[Bowbldr]

Just get the .16ga and be done with all the decisions.

All kidding aside, & that's not really kidding, you'll love that RRL in 20ga.

You'll not be undergunned for anything in North America but bear and elk. Get close enough with a slug and a rifled choke and you don't have to worry much about the bear.

Sure, a 12ga. will put more pellets in your supper, maybe even bring down a lonnnnng range bird with one of those extra pellets but my advice is to pick the gun you want to look at and carry for the next 2 years. You'll be happy with the .20

I haven't picked up my .12 pound hammer in years and probably won't for awhile. If I wanted to carry a big ole heavy weight while hunting I'd take my brother more often.

[Wildweeds]

Wagner,

Since I have firsthand knowledge and experiance myself of what kind of dog your going to end up with after training,the 20 will be just fine and maybe even overkill once you get the hang of shooting it.I shoot a 20 the entire season in E. Washington and switch to mod and full choke in the last part of the season when the pheasants are particularly spooky.I've been shooting the 20 for about 18 years and actually shoot it better than I ever did a 12.BUT I practice on skeet targets almost every weekend with a .410.

This weekend the group I shoot with Have laid down a challenge "Repeater day" Three targets thrown simultaneously at each station around the semi circle, from the high/low house and the trap bunker or a 12 volt thrower throwing a target 45 degrees across the field from the corner of the low house.I'll be shooting a 1100 trap gun choked full, I'll need to be ON target.