Red Dot powder???

[GSPBearMan]

Guys,

Just bought 5lbs of Red Dot powder.......did I get the right thing? Did I get too much of one kind?

I shoot the cheap shells. Winchester X 20ga. 7/8 #7.5-9. Will this be the powder I need or should I buy smaller quanity and get different ones?

Thanks, Barry

[claybuster_aa]

Guys,

Just bought 5lbs of Red Dot powder.......did I get the right thing? Did I get too much of one kind?

I shoot the cheap shells. Winchester X 20ga. 7/8 #7.5-9. Will this be the powder I need or should I buy smaller quanity and get different ones?

Thanks, Barry

You have bought the wrong powder. Red Dot is 12 gauge powder. I just checked the Alliant reloading data. The hull you are using follow the AA data (20g, 2 3/4"). You need, Unique, Green Dot or Herco, but NOT Red Dot.

Nothing wrong with buying 5-lbs of powder, you just need to buy the right powder for what you are doing.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... 3&gauge=20

Don't forget to select the primer and wad to get the correct grain weight you should be dropping. You can use the bushing charts to select the right bushing, but I recommend the use of a powder scale to know exactly what you are dropping.

Charlie

[claybuster_aa]

Guys,

Just bought 5lbs of Red Dot powder.......did I get the right thing? Did I get too much of one kind?

I shoot the cheap shells. Winchester X 20ga. 7/8 #7.5-9. Will this be the powder I need or should I buy smaller quanity and get different ones?

Thanks, Barry

Checking the data with the Alliant powders in 20 gauge, you still have very few options. Not worth it. You need to switch over to Hodgdon Powder and use "Universal" powder. That will give a many more recipes to choose from versus the one or two available with Alliant powders for what you are doing. Even though Alliant lists Unique, Herco, and Green Dot, depending on the primer and wad, some of those recipes don't even have data available. Switch to Universal Powder and get more options.

Charlie

[Greg Jennings]

Concur with Charlie.

I used a barn full of Red Dot in 12 ga back in the day. It was by far my preferred load. I think it was AA hull, 14.5 gr of Red Dot, Win-209 primer, AA or Claybuster AA clone wad. I think I went through about a 5 gal bucket of shells a week.

Later, when I converted to shooting skeet (and shot the 20 in the doubles and 12 ga events in addition to the 20), I shot a barrel full of Winchester's powder, WSF and whatever it replaced, but later went to Universal. I think it's AA hull, Win 209 primer, AA or Claybuster clone and 14.7 grains of Universal. I think it was less than what the book recommended. I bet my 9000G is still set up for it.... kids leave no time.

As an aside, I once heard a horror story about a M-42 Winchester, Red Dot and an "experimental reloader".

Greg J.

[claybuster_aa]

Barry,
Check the data obviously before you get started. If you're still around, are they High Brass hulls? They feed a little tight in my 20-gauge Standard. Also, keep in mind that is a 6-crimp start as opposed to the AA 8-crimp start. When looking at the data, remember those Super X high brass will follow the AA data as mentioned prior. Also, those hulls (if they are the ones I have in mind) are not full brass. That may or may not make a difference to you. A magnet will stick to them.
I only like to shoot the full brass in my 1100, but with an O/U it wouldn't matter to me.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Index.htm

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[GSPBearMan]

Guys,

Thanks for the help......I have been following your links and reading a bit too. Seems I didn't understand things much. I have talked to the knowledgeable guy at the local Sportsman's and he explained the charts to me. I like the specs on the Universal powder but decided to try 1lb of WSF first. The velocity vs pressure was really good and seemed like a good choice. I have seen recipes from 15-16.5 grains and I have loaded mine at 14.7. Should be well in the safe range. I am using Win209, 7/8 #9, AA20 wad, and WSF powder at 14-14.7 grains.

On the hulls....not sure on the high brass. I don't think so. They are the Winchester Super X. They are a yellow color and the cheap boxes where I buy my ammo. I miss more than I hit and want cheap ammo right now. Thanks again for the help......didn't realize how close to trouble I was.

Barry

[claybuster_aa]

Sounds good and you're on your way. I never shot WSF but have gone though several 8-pounders of WST. Not sure if they make WST any more, but have switched over to Hodgdon years back. What are you using for a reloader? I have 3 MEC Grabbers (older 762 R's), 28, 20, and 12. In 20-gauge, I like blue windjammer wads or oranger dusters. I used the win 209 primer for many years, but now I only buy the Federals.

[Greg Jennings]

Once I swapped over to skeet, I was shooting all WW powder. 296 in the 410, 540 in the 28 and 473 in the 20. When WSF replaced 473, I initially used it, but then went to Universal.

When it's loaded down the way that you're doing, I think you'll find the WSF to be dirty. I always loaded the 473 down due to the "snappy" recoil curve.

Best,

Greg J.

[GSPBearMan]

Sounds good and you're on your way. I never shot WSF but have gone though several 8-pounders of WST. Not sure if they make WST any more, but have switched over to Hodgdon years back. What are you using for a reloader? I have 3 MEC Grabbers (older 762 R's), 28, 20, and 12. In 20-gauge, I like blue windjammer wads or oranger dusters. I used the win 209 primer for many years, but now I only buy the Federals.

I picked the WSF for the good velocity and low pressure. I just got 1lb to try and I will see how I like that. Seems like several like the Universal. Will have to get some of that.

I have the MEC Sizemaster in 20ga. Should be fine for now. I picked up a pack of Windjammers and then put them back. For now I will just stick with the Win AA20 and see how that works.

Barry

[GSPBearMan]

Once I swapped over to skeet, I was shooting all WW powder. 296 in the 410, 540 in the 28 and 473 in the 20. When WSF replaced 473, I initially used it, but then went to Universal.

When it's loaded down the way that you're doing, I think you'll find the WSF to be dirty. I always loaded the 473 down due to the "snappy" recoil curve.

Best,

Greg J.

Right now I only have 1lb to play with of the WSF.....will have to try the Universal next. Seems to be the most recommended around here

Barry

[nj gsp]

I used to use Red Dot all the time, but it's a dirty burning powder. I've switched to all Hodgdon powders now, they are very consistent and burn super clean. I use Clays for the 12 and Universal and Longshot for the 16.

Hodgdon has a good reloading database for their stuff: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[bobeyerite]

I use all Hodgdon Powders. I use Universal for my 7/8 ounce 20 gauge loads and Longshot for all the one (1) ounce loads. I find these powders give me the most versatility of any powders around.

[GSPBearMan]

I looked at powders yesterday and decided on Unique instead. Universal has been recommened several times but seems small in size like the WSF I have been using. Keeps dropping bits out of the slide bar on my MEC. The Red Dot didnt' and I thought that Unique may be similar. I have been playing with light loads hope that it will also take up some extra volume in my hulls.

Barry

[nj gsp]

I looked at powders yesterday and decided on Unique instead. Universal has been recommened several times but seems small in size like the WSF I have been using. Keeps dropping bits out of the slide bar on my MEC. The Red Dot didnt' and I thought that Unique may be similar. I have been playing with light loads hope that it will also take up some extra volume in my hulls.

Barry

You probably don't have the powder seal installed - it's the thin brass washer that goes between the rubber seal and the slide bar.

[Greg Jennings]

The finer grained powders meter better and thus give more uniform loads. That's why I used them as much as possible.

Uniformity was incredibly important to me at the time. If I missed 1 out of 100, I was out of the money.

[Wagonmaster]

There is alot more to powders than just reading the load charts.

Powders are rated based on burn speed. The faster the powder the more punch. If you are a hunter, you probably don't care much because you will be lucky to go through a box a day. But if you are a target shooter and go through a five gallon pail in a day, it is a different story. A fast burning powder may be cheaper, but at the end of a five gallon bucket you will feel it.

Red Dot is about as fast as you can get in a 12 ga. powder.

I see Greg likes the Winchesters. The Winchesters I am familiar with are ball powders, meaning they are fine, round grains. I think they will work fine in a MEC, particularly a single stage. They do not work fine in a Ponsness-Warren progressive such as the 800 series, 900 series, and higher. The tolerances in those machines are tight, and they use a rubber "O" ring between the part that rotates the powder measure into place to dump it, and the bottom of the unit part that holds the powder tube. The Win ball powders are very hard and grind that O ring like sandpaper grit would. I could never get through 10 lbs. of it without replacing the rings.

For economy, and moderate burn rate, and ease of operation through a progressive loader, I liked the Hodgdon powders quite a bit. For the 12, I have gone through several hundred pounds of it over the years. I used to chrono loads from time to time, and always found it produced great consistency in terms of shot-to-shot velocity. Clays is also a clean burning powder. Some of the powders, like Red Dot, are dirty burning, leave alot of powder residue.

Clays would not be the powder for a 20 I don't think. There might be some loads for the 20 using Clays, but probably Universal would be better. I think Hodgdon developed a powder something like Clays for the smaller gauges, but don't remember what it was.

If you haven't figured it out from prior posts yet, don't mess around with varying powder charges, shot charges, or components, from what is in the load tables, until and unless you really really really know what you are doing. Sticking Red Dot in a .410 is a good way to blow a gun, and the explosion always happens at the breach end, right in the shooter's face.

[Greg Jennings]

There is alot more to powders than just reading the load charts.

Powders are rated based on burn speed. The faster the powder the more punch. If you are a hunter, you probably don't care much because you will be lucky to go through a box a day. But if you are a target shooter and go through a five gallon pail in a day, it is a different story. A fast burning powder may be cheaper, but at the end of a five gallon bucket you will feel it.

Red Dot is about as fast as you can get in a 12 ga. powder.

I see Greg likes the Winchesters. The Winchesters I am familiar with are ball powders, meaning they are fine, round grains. I think they will work fine in a MEC, particularly a single stage. They do not work fine in a Ponsness-Warren progressive such as the 800 series, 900 series, and higher. The tolerances in those machines are tight, and they use a rubber "O" ring between the part that rotates the powder measure into place to dump it, and the bottom of the unit part that holds the powder tube. The Win ball powders are very hard and grind that O ring like sandpaper grit would. I could never get through 10 lbs. of it without replacing the rings.

For economy, and moderate burn rate, and ease of operation through a progressive loader, I liked the Hodgdon powders quite a bit. For the 12, I have gone through several hundred pounds of it over the years. I used to chrono loads from time to time, and always found it produced great consistency in terms of shot-to-shot velocity. Clays is also a clean burning powder. Some of the powders, like Red Dot, are dirty burning, leave alot of powder residue.

Clays would not be the powder for a 20 I don't think. There might be some loads for the 20 using Clays, but probably Universal would be better. I think Hodgdon developed a powder something like Clays for the smaller gauges, but don't remember what it was.

If you haven't figured it out from prior posts yet, don't mess around with varying powder charges, shot charges, or components, from what is in the load tables, until and unless you really really really know what you are doing. Sticking Red Dot in a .410 is a good way to blow a gun, and the explosion always happens at the breach end, right in the shooter's face.

All of my loaders except for my 28 ga are MEC 9000G progressives. Being in college and early in my career when I was shooting that much, I didn't have the moolah for a PW, though I would dearly have loved one. They are the Abrams M1-A1 of loaders.

I did go to Red Dot for the money at the time. Since I was shooting it in a single-barrel BT-99, it being a bit dirty didn't matter much. At 14.5 grains, I didn't notice it being punchier than either the WW ball powder that I originally used or a couple of other things we tried. There were some others, but Red Dot was just the best choice overall for me. 99% of everyone else that I knew was loading it as well. Some of the guys used 700X, but it didn't load all that great for me and it was more expensive.

When I converted over to skeet, I shot the 20 in the 12 ga event and in doubles. So, I didn't shoot *any* 12 ga. I was loading 473 in the 20, 540 in the 28 and 296 in the 410. When Winchester replaced 473 with WSF, I shot it for a bit, then converted over to Universal. In the 20 ga, it metered just fine. (Tried Green Dot early on...gave up on it after 1 lb. hated it). In the little guns, I continued shooting the ball powders. With that tiny bushing and drop tube, I just had more confidence in it metering consistently. Of course any variance is worse in the little guns than in the 12.

The ball powders are very messy around the loader. It's like sand at the beach. But, that ball powder meters like water. I weighed every 10th charge and it almost never varied as much as 1/10th grain. I don't think I ever saw it vary 2/10ths (as long as I did my part...kept the the powder topped off, used a baffle, etc).

Now, this was all back in the day before the Clays, Universal, etc. was widespread. Now-a-days, I'd recommend giving them a hard look...would still have a hard time getting past 296 for the 410, though....

Greg J.

[nj gsp]

Hodgdon makes and supplies all Winchester's powder these days.They have a website with reloading data just for the Winchaster powders they make: http://www.wwpowder.com/

[GSPBearMan]

You probably don't have the powder seal installed - it's the thin brass washer that goes between the rubber seal and the slide bar.

You are correct......I was wondering what that was for. I will have to fix that. Thanks.

Barry

[claybuster_aa]

Dimpled side facing up with the small brass ring. You still may get some small amounts of powder slipping through even with the ring, but not much.

[claybuster_aa]

Checking the data with the Alliant powders in 20 gauge, you still have very few options. Not worth it. You need to switch over to Hodgdon Powder and use "Universal" powder. ...

I'm going to rephrase after checking some data in my Alliant reloaders guide... You have plenty of options, but for some reason I wasn’t hitting many off their website in 20G. Hodgdon offers several powders as well in 20G (Longshot and Universal) and these powders have become IMO the more widely used.... that sounds better than 'you need to switch over' because that is not really the case. I have used both Universal and Longshot in 20 gauge, but Universal is a little less loud. Currently, I am using International Powder for 20G 3/4 OZ....real nice for that 200E skt/skt I just picked up.

Charlie

[Tejas]

Greg,

How does that 900G do on 28 Ga? I have heard some iffy reports.

[Greg Jennings]

Greg,

How does that 900G do on 28 Ga? I have heard some iffy reports.

All of my loaders except for my 28 ga are MEC 9000G progressives

My 28 ga is a SizeMaster single stage. I just didn't/don't load that much 28 ga though I dearly love the ga. I practiced with the 20 ga the most and the 410 quite a bit.

My 410 9000G works fine, though. You just have to be a little more careful with it.

Errata: I checked my notes. My 12 ga loads with Red Dot were 17.5 and 18.0 (roughly) grains for 2-3/4 and 3 dram equivalent, respectively. In Handicap, once I got past the 25 yard line, I tended to shoot 3 dram of 7-1/2s. We had lots of trouble with target quality back then and the 3 drams just have me a little more confidence. Probably jarred my brains around more, too.

Greg J.

Greg J.

[Ayres]

IF you're stuck with the Red Dot and reloading 20 gauge, you might want to take a look at the Promo (virtually identical to Red Dot if I recall correctly) Extra Light 20 ga. Reloading Data over in the ShotgunWorld reloading forum. It's an unpublished, "wildcat" load, and, as all unpublished loads is a "use at your own risk" type of load. But there are several members over at SGW that have tested it and have reported velocity and pressures.

If you're not stuck with the Red Dot, change it out for Universal. Then I would suggest looking for a 3/4 oz load for 20 ga. It will shoot lighter, be cheaper to load, and you won't be sacrificing anything if you're using the loads on clays, quail or pigeons. (If you're going for pheasant, I'd still stick with a 7/8 oz or better load).

Just something to think about.

[claybuster_aa]

There is published data at Hodgdon website for ¾ oz 20 Gauge using International Powder. 1150 to 1200 recipes with plenty of breakin power w/ practically zero recoil.

Charlie