Tuesday 10/17 I was inline hunting for doe at my cabin in Central PA while my dog was at home recovering from a cut on his leg. I decided to hike back to a gap where I wanted to take him for grouse this week (first time we'd ever pursued them). Shortly into the hunt I heard one drum in the distance. A mile later had one flush off the side of the trail. Needless to say we'll be hunting that area eventually.
Any advice on grouse with an English springer spaniel? I know a pointer/setter is "optimal"
Hoping his cut is healed enough (vet says it looks great and could be wrapped for a hunt or two) for a pheasant hunt tomorrow morning.
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Thunder chickens
Re: Thunder chickens
I’m VERY new so take this with a grain of salt, but a pointer/setter is not ideal. It’s just different.
I’m just finishing up my first season with a two year old lab. I’ve looked to the Heller brothers with Grouse Commander and Jeremy Moore with DogBone Hunter for guidance. They do very well with flushing dogs and grouse.
We’ve done a lot yard work leading up to it. Then chukars over the summer. Then straight to wild birds. First day, tough conditions and he just kept running the trail. Next day further into the woods and kicked up a few birds away from the trail. One bird to hand. Next two days, he started pushing into the woods to look for them, I think because we shot one in the woods and he got the retrieve. Last day, everything clicked and he was running the trail well in range and circling on either side of us. Pushed two birds right in front and over our heads. Sent two into the woods. Got two to hand that day.
As long as you train them and hunt them correctly, I think flushers can be really fun for grouse. So far, I don’t feel like I’m at a big disadvantage with my pup.
Enjoy.
I’m just finishing up my first season with a two year old lab. I’ve looked to the Heller brothers with Grouse Commander and Jeremy Moore with DogBone Hunter for guidance. They do very well with flushing dogs and grouse.
We’ve done a lot yard work leading up to it. Then chukars over the summer. Then straight to wild birds. First day, tough conditions and he just kept running the trail. Next day further into the woods and kicked up a few birds away from the trail. One bird to hand. Next two days, he started pushing into the woods to look for them, I think because we shot one in the woods and he got the retrieve. Last day, everything clicked and he was running the trail well in range and circling on either side of us. Pushed two birds right in front and over our heads. Sent two into the woods. Got two to hand that day.
As long as you train them and hunt them correctly, I think flushers can be really fun for grouse. So far, I don’t feel like I’m at a big disadvantage with my pup.
Enjoy.
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Thunder chickens
The older I get, the more I believe that you will kill more grouse and pheasant over a well trained flushing dog than you will a trained pointing dog. When a pointing dog points a grouse and you go in for the flush, they hear you coming and try to put thick cover between themselves and you on the flush. You never see a lot of the birds flushed.
With a flushing dog, they work the sides within 20 yards of the trail and when they flush the birds, it's amazing how many will come right across the road to escape, offering you the perfect crossing shot.
This from a guy that now runs pointing dogs. Ran labs for about 30 years though.
With a flushing dog, if he comes unerringly when called, he's hunt able. He should be a good retriever also.
With a flushing dog, they work the sides within 20 yards of the trail and when they flush the birds, it's amazing how many will come right across the road to escape, offering you the perfect crossing shot.
This from a guy that now runs pointing dogs. Ran labs for about 30 years though.
With a flushing dog, if he comes unerringly when called, he's hunt able. He should be a good retriever also.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
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RayGubernat
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Re: Thunder chickens
Many years ago, when I was in my twenties, I knew fellow who had trained his bird dog(shorthair) to take exactly one step on command when it was pointing and then resume a staunch point. I saw him move the dog in on a pheasant, step by step until the bird flushed out the back side of a clump. He was thus able to be on the back side of the clump and got an easy shot at the exiting bird. Dummy that I was...I never asked him how he got that done.
In the intervening years, when hunting solo, I can't tell you how many pheasants have run out and flushed on the back side of cover while I was inside flushing...but it has been a LOT. I have beat myself up many times over the years for not finding out how he got that piece of training done.
Recently I was fooling around with one of my guys and may have discovered a way to get that single step thing done. I typically keep my dogs at the kennel door and usually release them to the yard, at which time they take off. I had the dog stopped at the gate, then took him by the collar and commanded "ADVANCE" and pulled him forward one step. I then stopped him, re-issued the whoa command, let go of his collar and stroked him up. After a bit, I released him to run in the yard. I have done this several times now and he is beginning to get the idea. He is actually beginning to take one step on command and then resume standing at the kennel gate without me having to pull him forward by the collar. He is not ready to try it on birds yet, but I think, with some yard drills...it will work.
I was never really much of a grouse hunter, but I think having a dog that can point and then "flush" the bird on command could really improve the hunter's odds by allowing them to position themselves first and then move the dog in to roust the bird.
Regardless. it is something different, and something that allows me to mess with the dogs in a new way.
RayG
In the intervening years, when hunting solo, I can't tell you how many pheasants have run out and flushed on the back side of cover while I was inside flushing...but it has been a LOT. I have beat myself up many times over the years for not finding out how he got that piece of training done.
Recently I was fooling around with one of my guys and may have discovered a way to get that single step thing done. I typically keep my dogs at the kennel door and usually release them to the yard, at which time they take off. I had the dog stopped at the gate, then took him by the collar and commanded "ADVANCE" and pulled him forward one step. I then stopped him, re-issued the whoa command, let go of his collar and stroked him up. After a bit, I released him to run in the yard. I have done this several times now and he is beginning to get the idea. He is actually beginning to take one step on command and then resume standing at the kennel gate without me having to pull him forward by the collar. He is not ready to try it on birds yet, but I think, with some yard drills...it will work.
I was never really much of a grouse hunter, but I think having a dog that can point and then "flush" the bird on command could really improve the hunter's odds by allowing them to position themselves first and then move the dog in to roust the bird.
Regardless. it is something different, and something that allows me to mess with the dogs in a new way.
RayG
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Pinetree_Springer
- Rank: Just A Pup
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Re: Thunder chickens
I run a 3 yo springer spaniel on partridge (Maine speak for ruffed grouse) as well as woodcock, pheasant and rabbit. Hunting ruffed grouse over a flushing dog can defiantly work. I do modify how I hunt ruffed grouse over my springer from when I am hunting pheasant or woodcock.
1. Hunt covers that have higher bird densities- sounds obvious but if you work with pointers (the other guys I hunt with all have GSPs) they range 100 yards out covering a lot of ground so they have a higher probability of contacting a bird in areas of lower density, a flushing dog will work within shotgun range so inevitably he/she will cover less ground. If you can work with a pointing dog at the same time as running your flushing dog, consider working him on the heel until you work up to where the pointer is on point, then put in the flushing dog or wait until you have the right type of cover. This will give you multiple hunts in a day with your flusher as they won't tire as quick.
2. Maine woods are thick and ruffed grouse are notorious for being in thick covers, I suspect its the same for PA. I keep my springer very close in thick covers maybe 10 yards sometimes less, a lot closer than when he's quartering for pheasants in a field. Grouse also behave differently with a running dog on the ground they will fly early at 20+ yards if they are skiddish so if you run your dog out 20+ yards the birds will be a max range when they take flight. They also tree more frequently so a follow-up shot might be up off the ground.
3. I don't use a whistle or bell on grouse, my first clue that there is a bird in the area is the dog getting birdie but after that I typical hear the bird lift before I see it, seconds matter and a bell on the dog or me trying to give whistle commands will mask the sound bird lifting. Also, I let the dog do his thing, I don't cast him like on quartering runs like I do on pheasants rather I find a shooting lane (small opening where I have a chance of swinging the shotgun) and use hand signals to send him into covers. I do use an e-collar.
Good luck!
1. Hunt covers that have higher bird densities- sounds obvious but if you work with pointers (the other guys I hunt with all have GSPs) they range 100 yards out covering a lot of ground so they have a higher probability of contacting a bird in areas of lower density, a flushing dog will work within shotgun range so inevitably he/she will cover less ground. If you can work with a pointing dog at the same time as running your flushing dog, consider working him on the heel until you work up to where the pointer is on point, then put in the flushing dog or wait until you have the right type of cover. This will give you multiple hunts in a day with your flusher as they won't tire as quick.
2. Maine woods are thick and ruffed grouse are notorious for being in thick covers, I suspect its the same for PA. I keep my springer very close in thick covers maybe 10 yards sometimes less, a lot closer than when he's quartering for pheasants in a field. Grouse also behave differently with a running dog on the ground they will fly early at 20+ yards if they are skiddish so if you run your dog out 20+ yards the birds will be a max range when they take flight. They also tree more frequently so a follow-up shot might be up off the ground.
3. I don't use a whistle or bell on grouse, my first clue that there is a bird in the area is the dog getting birdie but after that I typical hear the bird lift before I see it, seconds matter and a bell on the dog or me trying to give whistle commands will mask the sound bird lifting. Also, I let the dog do his thing, I don't cast him like on quartering runs like I do on pheasants rather I find a shooting lane (small opening where I have a chance of swinging the shotgun) and use hand signals to send him into covers. I do use an e-collar.
Good luck!
Re: Thunder chickens
Great info...I would be interested in your feedback as I am considering a pup (perhaps my last as I'm 73)...had setters all my life. I have trained all my dogs, enjoy that part of it too.
I hunt wild bobwhite quail in South Carolina....lots of similarities to grouse. (hunted them in Pa before I retired here in SC , in 2015). Learning the ways of the wild bobwhites here has been fun, but can be frustrating.
Here's why.....
whatever your understanding is of classic quail hunting, forget it...as now, where I hunt, they are here in clearings/cuts/prescribed burn sites in the Sumter Forest near my home. No huge tracts of land, where a covey dog can run with head high 100-200 yards out, slam into a point...the birds are frozen, and you walk in and flush em......that situation exists sometimes.
THE CHALLENGE...these birds run away from approaching hunters and bird dogs....typical example....experienced setter is working the cover, sensitive nose, good speed and drive...gets scent, gets busy, flash points, releases....tracks, flash points....tracks....tracks....then loses the track....Let me repeat, sometimes the pointing dog freezes the covey and they lay up ..but ...... often the birds escape with their legs.
How to be more effective in finding these runners......different dog, perhaps? Considering a smaller spaniel because smaller dog, typically more heat tolerant. Gets warm here, many hunting days over 60 degrees. Are spaniels typically considered better at staying with a track?
These birds can run faster than a grouse or pheasant, hunters, typically, try to hunt quietly with garmin collars, no bells, whistles, etc. I have seen the above mentioned escape scenario happen enough times to know that I want to consider a pup, with superior tracking ability, good nose and drive, natural retrieving instincts and biddable of course. No need to hunt 100 yards away, 30 to 70 yard dog is fine.
What say you? I really want to research this as my next dog as all of mine will be a house dog and hunter, and want to improve my chances here.
I hunt wild bobwhite quail in South Carolina....lots of similarities to grouse. (hunted them in Pa before I retired here in SC , in 2015). Learning the ways of the wild bobwhites here has been fun, but can be frustrating.
Here's why.....
whatever your understanding is of classic quail hunting, forget it...as now, where I hunt, they are here in clearings/cuts/prescribed burn sites in the Sumter Forest near my home. No huge tracts of land, where a covey dog can run with head high 100-200 yards out, slam into a point...the birds are frozen, and you walk in and flush em......that situation exists sometimes.
THE CHALLENGE...these birds run away from approaching hunters and bird dogs....typical example....experienced setter is working the cover, sensitive nose, good speed and drive...gets scent, gets busy, flash points, releases....tracks, flash points....tracks....tracks....then loses the track....Let me repeat, sometimes the pointing dog freezes the covey and they lay up ..but ...... often the birds escape with their legs.
How to be more effective in finding these runners......different dog, perhaps? Considering a smaller spaniel because smaller dog, typically more heat tolerant. Gets warm here, many hunting days over 60 degrees. Are spaniels typically considered better at staying with a track?
These birds can run faster than a grouse or pheasant, hunters, typically, try to hunt quietly with garmin collars, no bells, whistles, etc. I have seen the above mentioned escape scenario happen enough times to know that I want to consider a pup, with superior tracking ability, good nose and drive, natural retrieving instincts and biddable of course. No need to hunt 100 yards away, 30 to 70 yard dog is fine.
What say you? I really want to research this as my next dog as all of mine will be a house dog and hunter, and want to improve my chances here.