I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

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JonBailey
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I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:26 am

being a resident of Boise, ID. I contacted Diane Mazy of the Idaho Retriever Club in my state to inquire about the prospects as follows:

July 20, 2018

Hello, Diane Mazy:


I discovered your site on Google search.

My name is Jon and I have lived in Boise for two years. I have owned several Labrador retrievers many years ago as pets but never hunted feathered game in my life. My former dogs have passed on.

I have had this hankering to take up wingshooting while also enjoying this sport with a new pair of dogs in the future. In addition to learning about sporting dogs and training them, I will also have to have formal shotgun training. I don't own any dogs at the moment. I feel there is so much to learn before even investing money into new puppies or even a new shotgun.

I want to learn how to:

1. first and foremost, find the right dogs: Golden retrievers interest me very much, they are both pretty and seem versatile in the field
2. find a good serious breeder who breeds field-grade dogs for the gun and even more importantly, HEALTHY dogs!!
3. properly take care of gun dogs and socialize them from puppyhood
4. properly TRAIN gun dogs from start to finish doing most if not all of the training work myself as a hobby
5. find local outdoor facilities, with both land and water, where dog owners can train their retrievers for hunting both on lead and off lead: many parks in Boise don't allow dogs to be off leash: dogs have to be in a safe area to field train: in the retriever training curriculum among a myriad of other things, dogs will have to learn land marks and blinds as well as water marks
6. learn about which books, manuals, videos, equipment, etc. is needed to learn to properly train and care for a gun dog

May I find people who can mentor me through various meetings and events at your club?

Is it possible for a hunter to have a good trained dog or two without having to go through formal hunt tests and field trials? If there is a bunch of FC or MH titles on a new pup's pedigree, and perhaps an obedience title or two, then I figure the serious gun-dog breeder probably went through that complex AKC stuff already. Does your club lean more toward formal competitions? I just want to learn how to develop a good canine friend or two to accompany me in a dove field, a duck blind or a pheasant field and just get the job done, ethically speaking, and do it well. The birds should be retrieved promptly to my hand undamaged. Perhaps formal hunt tests could be considered sometime down the line.

How can your club help local newcomers to the wingshooting sport or those just merely interested? Dogs are often much a part of this sport as are guns and other hunting gear. To me, the dog is central to the romance and joy of hunting birds and ducks. Being able to train my own dogs to hunt seems not only rewarding but can save much money over hiring professional trainers.


Sincerely,
Jonathan Bailey


Here is how this woman replied:

Hi Jon, our club is primarily geared towards field trials and hunt tests. Many members also hunt. First and foremost dogs must have a solid foundation of basic training to do either well. There are many resources for retriever training available now which can help owner teach the basics. You might come to some IRC events, watch the dogs work and visit with owners. You can learn and maybe be inspired. We only have one more event in 2018, a FT in Cascade sept 7-9. Starting in February we have picnic trials which are a great place to meet some members. Our website will have info later. Feel free to contact me with any questions.
I will tell you it is getting harder to train or hunt in Boise area due to loss of open area. Partly why I now live in cascade! Much of the land we use for retrievers is private, IRC does not have any of their own grounds

Good luck with your pup search!

Diane



My final response to the Idaho Retriever Club:

Saturday, July 21, 2018

Diane:

Thank you for your prompt response.

I will have to say your response is less than optimistic but I do appreciate your honesty. Spud State evidently is not the Mecca of Bird Shooting in America as let's say a plains state like Indiana, Nebraska or Kansas, or, in the deep South. I can't leave the Boise area due to future job prospects here. I can't drive hundreds of miles each and every time I want to field train my dogs on weekends.

I don't have the privilege to have been raised in a hunting family or live in a bird-hunting community where private land and other birding resources are readily available nearby. I don't personally know a single person who bird-hunts or actively participates in hunting dog events. Unless I meet up with a local seasoned bird hunter and/or field retriever owner here with connections, I will probably set my sights on other forms of outdoor recreation that are more readily available to the masses and closer to home as boating, nature hikes and camping. I did once know a man who hunted in Idaho but his interests were in big game as elk and deer. He stuck his nose up when I told him of my interest in birds years ago by saying there was not enough meat in that sport to even waste ammunition on. There is probably little interest in feathered game among Idaho sportsman and that's why it doesn't seem to have strong presence here: nobody cares enough to strongly support it in local culture, I guess. I know in the South, Texas, Imperial Valley, California and Yuma, Arizona, they take September dove hunting as serious as a heart attack down there.

As for a puppy, I can't see the logic in investing in a serious hunting retriever unless I have already secured the proper places relatively close to home to train and hunt. I mean you would not purchase a new snowmobile if you were to live in Congo, Africa. I will probably just be served well with companion-only dogs as pets.



Sincerely,

Jonathan Bailey




Now, I will contact another retriever club, a local one that serves my area, TREASURE VALLEY HUNTING RETRIEVER CLUB, and ask them questions to see if I don't get a more positive response before deciding to tell myself to just forget birding altogether.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by polmaise » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:06 am

"Those who wish to Sing ,will always find a Song"
................................................................
The reply from the Lady is the best advice that one could give. "You might come to some IRC events, watch the dogs work and visit with owners. You can learn and maybe be inspired."
...............................................................
Who wants to spend the day thinking about anger, intolerance, or pessimism?
..............................................................
Face to Face meeting /greeting/talking sure gives you a whole lot more answers ! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless there is a medical/mental issue ,therefore Help at another Institution or establishment may be the best,moving forward .

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:10 am

From her response, she seems to be a nice, sincere, honest, helpful, insightful and concerned lady,....probably has happy dogs. :idea:

Indiana has more gamebirds/better gamebird hunting than Idaho?....refine your Internet surfing skills.
I have a friend who moved to Boise some 20 years ago now and has spoken of high periods /cycles of valley quail, as but a start. Boise proper undoubtably may have more issues and succession does happen apart from short grass or forests.
Conditions do change tho which was evident in the concerned aspect evidenced by the helpful lady.....places to hunt and train can be decreasing, part and parcel of being a hunter today is working to positively affect those and other issues. Part and parcel of birdhunting are not dove poppers or a return-on-investment focus...alone or, at all.

Entering a sport or avocation at the top is difficult...same for any profession.
One approaches neither by basic research alone..... work, less, time and stumbles are most often involved....nor does one approach either by setting standards and conditions of the most selfishly focused.
Big steps and little ‘uns, as James Herriot wrote....consider that phrase.

Entering hunting, of most any type today, is tough from angles of access to mentors to more.....one will find that here and elsewhere there are individuals willing to help and to give an honest hand up. It is a shame when help is met with such focused attitude, veiled anger and profound misunderstandings...hopefully, at the core is not a creative troll or anti taking a new slant of approach to worsen the insults.
My concern is for greater participation in birdhunting for every deserving lad or lass....for their own entering of the life(not the lifestyle) and as that helps with voices to address NF issues to much, much more...as another start.

Your “logic” is absent lad and what passes for logic is over-valued and ill-derived.
Consider quoits or consider how to learn thru finding a true road for steps forward...on a good road which we all have walked.

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JonBailey
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 am

Mountaineer wrote:From her response, she seems to be a nice, sincere, honest, helpful, insightful and concerned lady,....probably has happy dogs. :idea:

Indiana has more gamebirds/better gamebird hunting than Idaho?....refine your Internet surfing skills.
I have a friend who moved to Boise some 20 years ago now and has spoken of high periods /cycles of valley quail, as but a start. Boise proper undoubtably may have more issues and succession does happen apart from short grass or forests.
Conditions do change tho which was evident in the concerned aspect evidenced by the helpful lady.....places to hunt and train can be decreasing, part and parcel of being a hunter today is working to positively affect those and other issues. Part and parcel of birdhunting are not dove poppers or a return-on-investment focus...alone or, at all.

Entering a sport or avocation at the top is difficult...same for any profession.
One approaches neither by basic research alone..... work, less, time and stumbles are most often involved....nor does one approach either by setting standards and conditions of the most selfishly focused.
Big steps and little ‘uns, as James Herriot wrote....consider that phrase.

Entering hunting, of most any type today, is tough from angles of access to mentors to more.....one will find that here and elsewhere there are individuals willing to help and to give an honest hand up. It is a shame when help is met with such focused attitude, veiled anger and profound misunderstandings...hopefully, at the core is not a creative troll or anti ntaking a new slant to worsen the insults.
My concern is for greater participation in birdhunting for every deserving lad or lass....for their own entering of the life(not the lifestyle) and as that helps with voices to address NF issues to much, much more...as another start.

Your “logic” is absent lad and what passes for logic is over-valued and ill-derived.
Consider quoits or consider how to learn thru finding a true road for steps forward...on a good road which we all have walked.

QUOITS? I have tossed horseshoes before and found it boring.

You question my logic? So, you would indeed buy a snowmobile if living in the Congo?

You would toss thousands of dollars into sporting dogs from specialty breeders before finding and securing practical places near home to even use them?

Hunting for leisure, like tennis, bowling and fishing, is supposed to be for fun and entertainment and to relieve the stresses of the modern rat race. A person can only tolerate so much trouble and toil before saying the devil with the whole thing altogether. I am becoming saddened that the prospect of hunting might be something of a rat race of its own right.

I want to relieve my nerves on the weekends.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by averageguy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:20 am

Admin, Time for the Hook.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Fitter47449 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:45 am

Jon, in the time you've spent on the internet researching wingshooting you could have gone out and found many places to train dogs, and possibly hunt. Your methods confuse me, you can't understand an activity that takes place outdoors from behind a keyboard. Your attitude towards the whole venture is piss poor from my perspective. Hunting and dog ownership is never about getting the most bang for your buck. I fear you're far to cheap for this, and you should just walk away, with your only loss being the time you've spent wasting the time of the members of this forum who have been trying to get you started.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by MJB64 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:47 am

It sounds like you would like to have nice training grounds out of your back door and shoot limits of birds close to home with a gun that does not kick. Something has got to give.

Mike
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by cjhills » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:11 am

I cannot believe that you can't find enough land to train a retriever around Boise.
This is getting old. If you haven't found a song by now, forget singing.....Cj

Thank, Polmaise. I like that!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:20 am

JonBailey wrote:....
You question my logic?

So, you would indeed buy a snowmobile if living in the Congo?

You would toss thousands of dollars into sporting dogs from specialty breeders before finding and securing practical places near home to even use them? ....
Yes

Perhaps, depends.... there is snow in Africa and, I reckon that snow machine use, like birdhunting, can depend a bit, in the real world, upon desire, buying a Gazeteer and hitting the SuperSlab.

“Specialty” breeders might not be my own choice of words but I will search out genetics and potential and what makes me personally grin so Yes...oh my, yes.
I have found that dogs, birddogs included, have been a gift in my life for which I am ever trying to live up to.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by birddogger2 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:27 am

I think Mr. Bailey owes the retriever lady an apology.

There are a couple of truisms that come to mind regarding the OP.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

AND

You can't fix stupid.

RayG

PS -

Thank you Polmaise. Great quote. I believe I'll borrow it.

RayG

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by BPeterson » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:28 am

I have been reading your posts for quite some time now Jon while I was waiting to be accepted to the site. From day one I pretty much had you pegged. You ask for advice, but you already have a response for yourself made up in your head... Completely disregarding any help given. When asking a basic question, you rant and spew "facts" from literature that you read too much of apparently and take way too much to heart.
This is hunting... Yes you will learn from others experiences in books, but they are not a golden standard. When someone with WAY more experience than you (you have none) is trying to help, you don't try to fire back at them and make it seem like they are wrong and you know that because you read it somewhere.
What did you want this lady to tell you? She isn't going to feed you with a golden spoon and most people would love the opportunity to go meet with and learn from people in the retriever games.
I am from South LA, one of the places you considered the mecca of bird hunting by the way it was worded... And I don't know what you imagine other places to be like, but very few hunting folks have unlimited access to public land necessary to train a quality dog. However, people have access to private land, and if you aren't super arrogant and are willing to help out when needed, you may be given access yourself. When I got my dog, the only places I had to train within 60 miles of me was a backyard and a recreational soccer field... After getting run off the soccer field multiple times, I was left to a yard. I did what I could with what I had and drove where I needed to train her before she went to a pro for a while. When I got her back, I joined a local HRC, something I wish I would've done from the beginning and met a lot of great people that were willing to help with anything I needed as long as I returned the favor... I threw birds, setup wingers and holding blinds, aired dogs, and just hung out and got to know them... I went from a backyard to more training grounds than I knew what to do with. My dog went from a started level retriever to working with finished dogs.

You're going to fail. Accept it and learn from it.
I grew up duck hunting, I've only duck hunted as far as bird go. I am moving to West Texas this fall and am going to try and give some quail heck with my spaniel. Yes, I am asking questions, yes I want to know what I'm getting into... But I also know it will not be perfect and I am accepting the fact that I will more than likely kill very few, if any birds at all for a while. There is a learning curve to everything and you're trying to be at the top without starting at the bottom.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by mask » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:41 am

Jon, perhaps you should join HSUS or PETA if you are not already a member. You will more than likely find people you have much more in common with.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by fishvik » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:41 am

Jon,
1.Take an Idaho Hunter Ed course.
2. Buy an inexpensive shotgun, Mossberg or Rem 870,
3. Go to Walmart and buy some inexpensive shotgun shells,
4. Buy a hand thrower and some clay pigeons.
5. Go out to the Mayfield Exit off the Interstate east of Boise with a buddy and practice with your shotgun. Make sure you pick up your hulls and unbroken clays when you are done.
6. Try to find a dog that fits your needs. Now here comes the part that some other posters may disagree with. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a big name breeder unless you want to trial or breed. I've had 7 dogs in the last 45 years that I bird hunted with here in Idaho, upland and waterfowl. All but 1 were crossbreeds and none of them came from a breeder. They all did the basic thing you want them to do, find birds within shooting range and then bring back downed ones. The important part is spending time with them and teaching them what you want them to do. Once you develop the bond between you and them the training goes pretty well but it does take time and effort. There are no instant bird dogs.

PS You should be glad bird season hasn't started yet because if it had we would be out hunting and not answering these inquiries.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Steve007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:18 pm

averageguy wrote:Admin, Time for the Hook.
If this means what I think it means, +1.

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JonBailey
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:51 pm

Steve007 wrote:
averageguy wrote:Admin, Time for the Hook.
If this means what I think it means, +1.
Time for the hook...I gave up fishing years ago...boring as the devil.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:55 pm

fishvik wrote:Jon,
1.Take an Idaho Hunter Ed course.
2. Buy an inexpensive shotgun, Mossberg or Rem 870,
3. Go to Walmart and buy some inexpensive shotgun shells,
4. Buy a hand thrower and some clay pigeons.
5. Go out to the Mayfield Exit off the Interstate east of Boise with a buddy and practice with your shotgun. Make sure you pick up your hulls and unbroken clays when you are done.
6. Try to find a dog that fits your needs. Now here comes the part that some other posters may disagree with. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a big name breeder unless you want to trial or breed. I've had 7 dogs in the last 45 years that I bird hunted with here in Idaho, upland and waterfowl. All but 1 were crossbreeds and none of them came from a breeder. They all did the basic thing you want them to do, find birds within shooting range and then bring back downed ones. The important part is spending time with them and teaching them what you want them to do. Once you develop the bond between you and them the training goes pretty well but it does take time and effort. There are no instant bird dogs.

PS You should be glad bird season hasn't started yet because if it had we would be out hunting and not answering these inquiries.
I will see if I get more encouraging news from the Treasure Valley's own local retriever club. If I can pin down a place to teach my future
"Todd" field training with bumpers and dummy birds somewhere on the map between Mountain Home and Caldwell, Idaho, I will have at least half the battle won.
I still have to make inquiries to the fish and game about field dog training areas.They might know a thing or two being in the game business.

"Todd" is a splendid name for a dark/red Golden retriever who is a boy. Red like a fox and the breed began in Scotland to boot. "Todd" is celtic for "fox".
Hopefully Todd will be clever like a fox as well. Todd is a snappy short name that's easy to call the dog and can't be confused with any commands.

Perhaps I am using the Planned Parenthood approach for future puppies. I like to first formulate a master battle plan then attack later.
I want no nasty surprises down the road. I am now age 54 and much too old for wild goose chases.

Like the Boy Scouts motto: Be Prepared

The toughest thing about hunting is getting access to the "right real estate".
Once the real estate is in the bag, then everything else comes out of a textbook.

I am not counting on hunting this coming season or the next. Everything has to be well planned
in advance like clockwork and then scheduled. I am not sure I can even train a dog out at Mayfield Exit.

Yes, there are no magic bird dogs and it seems like there is no instant field for training as well. City parks
and school grounds are no proper place to develop a dog that will recover fallen doves from land or water.
I can do the obedience training and yard work pretty much in town, however.

Boise is a dog-hating city with all these leash laws everywhere. There are a couple dog parks in this town
but I doubt if they make good places for serious retriever training. It's imperative that a retriever-training area
be away from city people.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by polmaise » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:36 pm

In the words of "Bubba"
Gonna take the key to the medicine cabinet away ? In the interest of health & Safety if nothing else .

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by fishvik » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:24 pm

polmaise wrote:In the words of "Bubba"
Gonna take the key to the medicine cabinet away ? In the interest of health & Safety if nothing else .
That's a new one but I like it. I lived in Boise for close to 10 years and trained 2 dogs there. I can think of no town of that size that has so much available land to train on within 20 miles of city center. Most of the land north and east of town is public land. I think Jon just likes to type on the internet.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:15 pm

JonBailey wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
averageguy wrote:Admin, Time for the Hook.
If this means what I think it means, +1.
Time for the hook...I gave up fishing years ago...boring as the devil.
Obviously Jon doesn't understand what averageguy meant. I too would second the motion. This guy is a "fruit loop" and wasting a lot of good peoples time on this site. Time for the "hook"!
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:43 pm

Though I do not agree with Jon's thinking there has been no posts that make me think I am wasting my time in reading and when I do read it, I then decide if I want or need to respond. When that decision is made I talk to Jon and not someone else about my thoughts.

Jon has some other ideas about hunting than most of us but much of that may just be the results of not being exposed to the sport or understand the rewards. Whatever, I want to see him get involved and find out just what we know. That will not happen if we think we are to good or to busy to try and explain where we are coming from.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by shags » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:30 pm

OP said It's imperative that a retriever-training area
be away from city people.


I just watched a guy doing retrieve training with his pudelpointer in the grass strip between the Walmart parking lot and the road. Where there's a will there's a way.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Sharon » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:53 pm

averageguy wrote:Admin, Time for the Hook.
LOL He hasn't broken any rules - just annoying( posting too often and not getting on with decision making) :) If members got the hook for being annoying , we'd have a membership problem. :)

Just don't read his threads if they annoy you. I read them and usually get something new to think about.
.................................................

"Hunting for leisure, like tennis, bowling and fishing, is supposed to be for fun and entertainment and to relieve the stresses of the modern rat race. A person can only tolerate so much trouble and toil before saying the devil with the whole thing altogether. I am becoming saddened that the prospect of hunting might be something of a rat race of its own right.
I want to relieve my nerves on the weekends." quote Jon
..........................................
Very interesting perspective. Yes it can be seen as a lot of "work" choosing a dog and then training it to your satisfaction. The difference for many of us though is that we LOVE all of that and look forward to any time we can find to do just that. We never see it as "trouble and toil". Yes, we have bad days, but if your initial perspective is not "I'm thrilled to be doing this", then it may well be that hunting birds with a dog is not for you.. Remember, one can buy a fully trained dog... Sharon
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by averageguy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:04 pm

I posted for awhile thinking that it would benefit some future dog he might acquire but by now it is obvious to all he is trolling the site. Play along as you wish.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by mask » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:12 pm

I'm with average guy on this one so I'm done. Sharon you are right on about reading posts. On hunting to relieve stress, well walking is good for the body and killing is good for the mind. :lol:

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Steve007 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:14 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Whatever, I want to see him get involved and find out just what we know. That will not happen if we think we are to good or to busy to try and explain where we are coming from.
Mighty Ezzy, you are a fine and considerate fella. And Sharon is a nice lady. But no one here -- and not all of us combined -- can pour a gallon of milk into a pint container.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Dakotazeb » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:27 pm

I guess if we just stop responding to his posts he will go away.
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:41 pm

I read of folks who did not consider themselves too good or too busy to try and help someone.....I also read of a change in folks over Time based upon responses received and additional quite odd comments made....not to mention an entrenchment continually deepened behind a barrier of misunderstanding, slammed shut ears and poor math.

One can certainly ignore...the issue tho can be, just can be, that another stray person looking for info here will read blather and think it has value or defines correctly.
They.....can be set back or set upon a dead end, self-centered road.

With the future of hunting, the responsibilites of dogs and the concern for the spread of solid information at play....ignoring can be selfish in and of itself.
imho, of course.

Swimming is a great stress releaser, is a healthy pastime and is generally affordable, fwtiw.

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greg jacobs
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by greg jacobs » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:06 pm

Lots of great hiking in Idaho. I would suggest getting on line and find some good hikes and get out of the house.. Grest for the spirit. Wouldn't suggest buying a hunting dog.

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JonBailey
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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:14 am

fishvik wrote:
polmaise wrote:In the words of "Bubba"
Gonna take the key to the medicine cabinet away ? In the interest of health & Safety if nothing else .
That's a new one but I like it. I lived in Boise for close to 10 years and trained 2 dogs there. I can think of no town of that size that has so much available land to train on within 20 miles of city center. Most of the land north and east of town is public land. I think Jon just likes to type on the internet.

No, Jon likes to do a lot of typing and asking questions FIRST before pulling out his Visa card.

This coming week, I plan on hammering the fish and game with questions as well. Once I exhaust all the people and organizations I can throw questions at, I can then make up mind as to whether the prospect of dove hunting will fly or not for me. The more you get to know me the more you will realize I am analyst and a project manager. I have grown to be very gunshy about putting on a blindfold and tossing money to the wind.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:26 am

follow up on my email dialog with Diane:

From Diane:

There are many avid bird hunters in ID but they have to work at it. This area has grown and along with that comes less bird habitat and less open area to train dogs. Those that want to do it make it work. I grew up with no exposure either and have now managed to enjoy many well trained retrievers over last 30 years.
You are always welcome to attend an IRC event and see what you think.



Back to Diane from me:

Thank you once again, Diane:

I don't mind working at things, but I only have so much time and money to invest for recreational activities. Many hunters have full-time jobs during the week and weekend and holiday hours are precious to them. So, we must budget our time for leisure and this includes training dogs and practicing our shotgun skills on the local skeet range. We still must make time to mow our lawns, do wash, paint the fence, do house chores and go to the supermarket.

I am now in the process of inquiring to another dog club, the Treasure Valley Hunting Retriever Club. Since this is a localized organization, they may have or know of more local resources for people in this sport who live in my area. I figure that living in Boise, I would not want to have to drive any farther than 25 miles in any direction to train any dog of mine in a field-like environment. Of course, obedience, yard work and housebreaking can all be easily accommodated within the Boise city limits and much of that at my own home. I am not sure if any of our few city dog parks are ideal for training a hunting dog to do field work, however. Much of Boise has strict leash laws. For hunting doves and other game birds, I would not want to have to drive more than 100 miles in any direction. Boise is in SW Idaho. Most agricultural activity, farming, occurs in this region being that it is relatively flat and low in contrast to the mountainous regions north. Having read a number of books on bird hunting, it would seem likely that most American bird hunting occurs in agricultural areas. I'm a flatlander and not a mountain man myself. My lungs and heart cannot handle high altitudes and steep terrain so my hunting prospects would have to be limited to lower flat land. Driving through Canyon County and Marsing not too far west, one witnesses farmland galore. According to another resource I read online, the Magic Valley is supposed to be one of the best areas in Idaho for dove hunts.

I am going to ask the Idaho fish and game for some information as well. They might know of proper places around for hunters to field-train their dogs. I have read about private lands in this state and in my area as well called "Access Yes!". These landowners in cooperation with fish and game, open their lands to the public during hunting season for hunting under certain rules and conditions. I am going to see if any of these lands can be used for hunting dog training and game-scouting off season as well. It would be great if hunters could be allowed to train their dogs on these lands before hunting seasons open on them. There seems to be no better land to train a hunting dog than the very same land that would actually be hunted come the season opening.

The greatest single challenge any newcomer faces is pinning down the proper conveniently-located real estate, whether private or public, that this person would have access to in order to make the prospect of bird-hunting work out for this person. Otherwise, much hunting skills knowledge comes out of textbooks, outdoor videos and outdoor magazines as well as by talking with seasoned people in the sport.


Sincerely,
Jonathan Bailey



You see people, this whole thread is an object lesson on how even FINDING a place to hunt and/or work one's hunting dogs can be 90% of the battle in itself.
No other form of outdoor recreation has such challenges. If I want to take up tennis, there are plenty of tennis courts in town. There are golf courses galore
too but I find nothing fascinating about beating around a little hard white ball with an iron club while wearing a stupid little hat missing the part that goes over the scalp.

Finding a proper place to train dogs and hunt, for some people, can be like chasing the elusive white elephant or pink panther.
But for now, my fingers are crossed and I haven't given up just yet.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:52 am

shags wrote:OP said It's imperative that a retriever-training area
be away from city people.


I just watched a guy doing retrieve training with his pudelpointer in the grass strip between the Walmart parking lot and the road. Where there's a will there's a way.
I don't want my dogs unleashed near cars. Moving vehicles are dangerous. I have witnessed a lot of animal cruelty in Boise and in rural parts of SW Idaho too. I have seen horses that were mangy and starving to death. I have seen a_holes hit dogs and not even stop. I have witnessed a beautiful German shepherd get run over on State Street in Boise. The jerk didn't even stop. A man picked up the dog who was yelping and carried him away somewhere. There are a lot of idiots who drive drunk and who are on meth. Some people around here put collars on their dogs and cats that are too tight. I have seen dogs left in hot cars on numerous occasions and I do report them into animal control. Here in Boise at CamelBack Park, some 15 years ago, some ___wipe with a Rottweiler kicked a person's sweet black Lab in the head because the Lab mounted the Rottweiler. The Rottweiler bit the poor Lab and the Lab retreated about 20 feet. The___hole had to get a cheap shot in to boot and kick the Lab up the side of his head after the Lab had already backed away and stood still. If I should ever see anything like this again, I will follow the animal abuser at a safe distance and pull out my cell phone to the police so the person can get cited for animal cruelty. A smartphone is a good weapon in the battle against animal cruelty. Animal abusers should go to jail and be made some 350-pound gorilla's b_tch.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:14 am

ezzy333 wrote:Though I do not agree with Jon's thinking there has been no posts that make me think I am wasting my time in reading and when I do read it, I then decide if I want or need to respond. When that decision is made I talk to Jon and not someone else about my thoughts.

Jon has some other ideas about hunting than most of us but much of that may just be the results of not being exposed to the sport or understand the rewards. Whatever, I want to see him get involved and find out just what we know. That will not happen if we think we are to good or to busy to try and explain where we are coming from.

Ezzy
Most of Jon's hunting knowledge comes from reading books, gun magazines, outdoor publications and watching outdoor videos.

Yes, it's all textbook and theoretical at this point.

Somebody in this world has to agree with Jon that one just doesn't squander cash on a new venture without extensive homework first.

Right now, Jon is in the HOMEWORK stage in his speculations about bird hunting. Jon doesn't have an disposable income.

I can post here for years and it will never cost me a dime out of my pocket.

Nobody is twisting anybody's arm to read Jon's threads or make responses to his threads.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:31 am

polmaise wrote:"Those who wish to Sing ,will always find a Song"
................................................................
The reply from the Lady is the best advice that one could give. "You might come to some IRC events, watch the dogs work and visit with owners. You can learn and maybe be inspired."
...............................................................
Who wants to spend the day thinking about anger, intolerance, or pessimism?
..............................................................
Face to Face meeting /greeting/talking sure gives you a whole lot more answers ! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless there is a medical/mental issue ,therefore Help at another Institution or establishment may be the best,moving forward .
There is a financial issue here: I don't have the time nor money to drive all over creation on some wild goose chase, sir.

I'm on a budget. I also do have a medical issue: asthma. I can't go above 3,500 feet in elevation or walk on hilly terrain.

Use of a computer connected to the Internet to research things costs me no money and is a lot faster than a car.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by fishvik » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:00 am

I have given you some suggestions that are cheap and fit your criteria. Here are a couple of more. If you go east on I-84, the next three exits out of Boise, Blacks Creek, Mayfield and Simco Rd. all have lots of public land to train on. Blacks Cr. and Mayfield have small reservoirs where you can water train on most years. Go to the BLM state office at 1387 South Vinnell Way in Boise (just west of WalMart on Overland) and get some 1;100,000 land status maps of the area. Any yellow land is administered by the BLM, light green land is National Forest and light blue is state land. These areas are open for training.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JonBailey » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:24 am

fishvik wrote:I have given you some suggestions that are cheap and fit your criteria. Here are a couple of more. If you go east on I-84, the next three exits out of Boise, Blacks Creek, Mayfield and Simco Rd. all have lots of public land to train on. Blacks Cr. and Mayfield have small reservoirs where you can water train on most years. Go to the BLM state office at 1387 South Vinnell Way in Boise (just west of WalMart on Overland) and get some 1;100,000 land status maps of the area. Any yellow land is administered by the BLM, light green land is National Forest and light blue is state land. These areas are open for training.

Thank you, sir.

I will bookmark the BLM website and use Google Earth to survey the area you speak of before taking an automobile trip out there.
"Let Hercules himself do what he may, the cat will mew and dog will have his day." - William Shakespeare

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:01 pm

Jon Bailey should have been culled from the conversation for his use of racial slurs; since redacted from an earlier post. His substantial annoyance is another matter entirely. As most would understand, Idaho is probably only second to Nevada in barrier free access to reasonably productive public land in the west. The cultural significance of hunting is self-reliance and accountability; to the extent the activity can hold on to a piece of that will dictate its lifecycle. Without sounding overly dramatic, it may hold a place on the timeline of modern culture and the very history of humanity.

The relationship with gun dogs transcends the hunting experience itself for many of us. Seven or eight years ago, this medium, this very forum itself; produced productive conversation amongst a stronger group of learned dog people. It wasn't without trolls, ignorance, argument or emotional outburst over dog food. However, without question the subject matter itself was more focused on a familiar and common culture based on a shared set of values. As the external culture continues to change so does the internal, it either transforms or dies off.

Natural resources can only sustain X amount of consumption and our astounding progress in the movement of information is not an asset to hunting, it is a threat. So many, in so many threads over the last few days have tried to describe a set of values, to share their history and understanding of the hunt; and as I said of the transcendence that comes from sharing it with a dog. It is falling on deaf ears. I have always found learning to be difficult when I misplace my humility...

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by greg jacobs » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:12 pm

Well said.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by SCT » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:40 am

JonBailey wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
averageguy wrote:Admin, Time for the Hook.
If this means what I think it means, +1.
Time for the hook...I gave up fishing years ago...boring as the devil.
You'll probably find the same outcome with bird hunting. Waiting for ducks to come to your decoys or blind may be a lot like fishing. Do you know why? Because it takes dedicated work in the field to find places that produce either fish or birds. You will fail in your search for birds occasionally (oooops, pessimism haha), and without some natural ingenuity, you may fail a lot. It takes a lot of work and time in the field to find 10 different places that consistently produces birds. Hard to know sometimes how earnest you will be in search of high adventure. That's the way I look at it, HIGH ADVENTURE. I travel the globe to find birds for my dogs. It helps me to get away from this darn computer hahaha. You should try it.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JONOV » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:13 pm

It is the epitome of rudeness to put on blast communications with others for the world to see. Ms. Mazey is the president of a retriever club. If it were "take people hunting club" it would be called that. If you want a place to meet other hunters, its a good place for that.

NO ONE is going to take people out that they don't know. They need to feel you're safe with a gun, going to keep your mouth shut about where they took you, and be safe around their dogs, not ruin one of their valuable days afield, at the very least. If they have access to private land, they need to be certain you aren't going to do something to cause that privelege to be revoked. They aren't going to pop their phone open and give you the GPS coordinates of the spot that they took years and miles to find because you want them to.

I say this as someone that learned to hunt mostly on my own, without access to oodles of private land, without access to family duck impoundments, without the great luck of living somewhere like Idaho where, despite what you seem to think, you have as good an opportunity as anywhere to hunt wild birds. Your delusions about the deep south (most quail hunting is private on private plantations that have been owned by the wealthy as quail plantations for a decade) or Indiana (where I do have family, and family that has lots of land, but there are no grouse or pheasants or quail.) Idaho might not be Kansas or Nebraska, but it is a great state for bird hunters.

GET OFF YOUR COMPUTER. Go to Retriever club meetings, go to meetings for pointing dog breeds, etc. And go hunting.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by JONOV » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:18 pm

JonBailey wrote:
There is a financial issue here: I don't have the time nor money to drive all over creation on some wild goose chase, sir.

I'm on a budget. I also do have a medical issue: asthma. I can't go above 3,500 feet in elevation or walk on hilly terrain.

Use of a computer connected to the Internet to research things costs me no money and is a lot faster than a car.
That's your problem. I can't speak for anyone else on this board as to finances, but plenty of us live on a budget. Chasing wild geese is the whole point. If we wanted farm raised geese we'd go to the livestock auction and buy them.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by BPeterson » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:18 pm

JONOV wrote:It is the epitome of rudeness to put on blast communications with others for the world to see. Ms. Mazey is the president of a retriever club. If it were "take people hunting club" it would be called that. If you want a place to meet other hunters, its a good place for that.
Not to mention the "Here's how the woman replied" comment.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by polmaise » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:54 pm

JonBailey wrote:
polmaise wrote:"Those who wish to Sing ,will always find a Song"
................................................................
The reply from the Lady is the best advice that one could give. "You might come to some IRC events, watch the dogs work and visit with owners. You can learn and maybe be inspired."
...............................................................
Who wants to spend the day thinking about anger, intolerance, or pessimism?
..............................................................
Face to Face meeting /greeting/talking sure gives you a whole lot more answers ! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless there is a medical/mental issue ,therefore Help at another Institution or establishment may be the best,moving forward .


Use of a computer connected to the Internet to research things costs me no money and is a lot faster than a car.
Put the wrong Fuel or mix in .....and it backfires :roll: :wink:

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:51 pm

This Thread makes me so Thankful for the path I have walked.

I started running creek banks when I was 5, catching frogs, fish, turtles and snakes with my bare hands. Fishing soon followed. Found a rusty Victor Number 1 longspring hanging on a nail in a barn and that launched me into trapping Muskrats at the age of 11. Bought more traps with money earned mowing lawns, a one man yellow raft from the Army/Navy Surplus store, waders, shoulder length gauntlets, stakes, wire, trap dye, lures ... Coon, mink, fox, coyote and beaver trapping followed soon after.

I learned Woodsmanship, stalking, skinning, cooking and eating wild game first with a pellet gun and squirrels at the same age. My cousin got an Airedale and our hunting really blossomed armed with our ever present Canine assistant. My first Doves and Quail were taken with the same pellet gun ...

No one took me hunting or taught me to hunt. I was just ate up for the out of doors and took upon myself to learn it all. Dogs, wingshooting, fur, waterfowl, upland birds, big game and archery all followed and continue today.

I would not trade my learning curve experiences throughout my life for all the contents of the Internet.

Sign of the times that too many expect easy instant results vs results earned from applying one's self.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Sharon » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:07 pm

That's a great post.
I too started at about 4 with Dad. Remember catching a big brown trout in a quart basket - Dad was :| , and the fish hook caught in the hand day. Still have the scar.
Dad bred beagles so I got interested in hunting from that. At 12, I could only shoot at a target at the end of the hunt , if I had carried the .22 the whole hunting time and the barrel was still clean - hard to do in deep snow some days.
I remember the day I went out to feed the pups and they were all dead. Dad had forgotten to turn on the heat lamp in the kennel. The Mom had chewed through the wooden door , gone to my rabbit hutch, killed all the rabbits and carried them in to lay on her pups.
And the point of all this is to say , as has been said, you learn from experience.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:40 pm

Sharon , I laughed at the brown trout in a basket.

I caught a rainbow with a dip net while fishing with my Dad at a trout State Park where there were 40 fly fisherman/witnesses around. I was hooping and hollering over my prize flopping in the net, while the Fisherman all laughed heartily as my Dad promptly dumped the fish back into the water and I burst out crying. Netting fish being highly frowned upon and illegal to boot ...

We watched that Airedale get killed by a car when we kids failed to heel her across the highway between our giant woods playground and my Cousins house. Still hurts.

Experience is the best teacher, including very much, the bad ones.
Last edited by averageguy on Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Steve007 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 pm

averageguy wrote:Sign of the times that too many expect easy instant results vs results earned from applying one's self.
Character -- not background -- is destiny, to paraphrase Heraclitus.

When I wanted to learn to birdhunt at the age of of 49, I read, bought a shotgun (my first) and spent two years learning to shoot. Then I read, bought a dog and set out to train him. In retrospect, wrong shotgun, wrong dog, but we worked hard,paid our dues and eventually achieved substantial success in the field , FT and HT.

Character and dedication do it, not background. The line in your post above is correct, however, as is my opening line. Jon is out of luck.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:50 pm

Steve007 wrote: Character -- not background -- is destiny, to paraphrase Heraclitus.
A Guy could go far approaching Life that way. Good stuff, Steve.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:12 pm

In amongst the attitude, only slightly hidden anger and likely, deeper agenda of Jon’s posts lurked a reality of declining access across many portions of this country.
Perhaps not Idaho in great fashion but elsewhere, certainly.
A decline that no longer offers up at all or as easily, access to small game...small game which started many of us on this road we walk.

Hereabouts, in Ohio, the change is principally from the big business of deer hunting and the leasing and locking up of Corporate and Private ground.
It happens...it happened.
Access is a hurdle new hunters, especially kids, face.
“Hunters” themselves can be a hurdle re hunter recruitment....it is a consideration we should never ignore out of discomfort.

But, to the point here, once one gains adulthood and a driver’s license, the world expands.
Never easy, never offered on a plate carrying no cost, never based only upon a table setting...birdhunting and more is worth the effort for the deeper values inherent in the activity and which respect and appreciation for being there delivers.

For those new to hunting or wishing to crack that lid, much can be learned by understanding and accepting why God gave us ears and, feet.
This forum, and others, offer a hand along regarding questions of all things dog and afield........no one should ask or demand to be given more than the respect of an answer...imho.

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:33 pm

Access is an issue and more difficult by far than my childhood.

But to the theme of effort makes things happen, I also used money earned mowing yards to buy a Huffy 10 speed bicycle, mapped out a route to the nearest creeks and rode my bike 5 miles one way to set and check my trapline at age 11. My Friends and I started driving to and hunting on public hunting areas many hours and then states away the moment we acquired our drivers licenses. Would seem doable for an adult even in today's day and age.

Yesterday while working out (I hate it but my passions require it), I was watching "The Flush" on the TV. They were hunting in Idaho on public lands. The Host said Idaho was something close to 80% public lands with the most in the Nation!!!

If a guy cannot train a flushing/retrieving dog and learn to bird hunt in Idaho how the heck do the rest of us manage to do it in much lesser states?!

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Re: I have been interested in taking up bird hunting

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:36 am

Jon, I wish for you to find the true meaning of bird hunting first and foremost. It does not mean shooting your limit, nor finding hundreds of birds in every outing, nor filling the freezer. At least, not for me.
For me, it is about the dance my dog(s) and I do in the arena that is utterly breathtaking even before I release the dog or find one single bird. It is about being in nature.
I have a refined pallet for enjoying the stride, gait, intelligence and work ethic that exudes in every stride of a beautiful dog.
It is about building relations with landowners and no, they don't ALL let you hunt on their land - which is OK.
As a starter, you may have a more misses than hits but those hits can be SO sweet, which will have you coming back for sure!
Secondly, firearms for bird hunting can be a sport all of itself! While everyone has a budget, you can often find deals that bring shooting - be it hunting game or at a club or just breaking clays - to an almost fanatical level. Collecting fine guns is another peripheral dynamic.
Finally, most every dog today is a companion first-and-foremost, meaning some hunt a lot less than others but they still contribute to a wonderful quality of life at home, probably for a percentage that far exceeds hours afield.
I started hunting when I was about 9 years old. I shot "at game" in my (city) backyard with a BB gun. I then (~12 years old) stepped up to a pellet gun which I transported ( by bicycle) through a major city in a garbage bag to a location that once had wild pheasants on the city perimeter! For me, hunting is in my veins. Not everyone is like that. When my friends were looking at Playboy, I was looking at Outdoor Life.
You need to search your own soul to see if the squeeze is worth the juice. Big or small, there is ALWAYS a return. Only you can account for what that means to you.
In hockey, great coaches will tell you, "If you aren't moving your feet, you're doing it wrong." Hunters have been known to say, "Your success afield is directly proportional to the amount of leather worn off of your boots."
I received a very cordial invite to hunt Idaho from a local gentleman earlier this year. I'm guessing there are areas that still prove to be rewarding.
While some forum responses can appear to be somewhat abrasive/vociferous, understand that some of us love this sport with a passion unrivaled. At least I do! We can get defensive at times.
When trainers reach an impasse with a dog, I recommend that they look inwards for an answer - not at the dog. In this case, I also believe the answers to your questions lie within you Sir.
All the best going forward Jon.

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