GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

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Evanman2010
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GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:19 am

I was finally able to get a weekend off and take my 9 month old gsp out in the Northern Michigan woods. Put up about 20 birds in 3 days and killed about half of that. Since this was his first hunt I just let him run, he finally got the hang of things after an hour in the woods and ran about 15 yards in front of the line of guys we had. Whenever he got birdy he would narrow in his area but not point, you can see his tail wagging faster and his head to the ground. Once he pushed up the bird and it took flight he would start to bark and chase after it. For a couple birds he was 50 yards in front of the line and pushing birds before we could get to them, I was told to let it slide for right now because it teaches him to point and wait for the shooter. For such a young pup do you guys think I should let this slide or should I correct this and how so? He did get a whiff of something maybe a deer or rabbit and took off barking and chasing. I have yet to use a shock collar but I am thinking of using it next time to give him a zap when he takes off after another animal would this be a good idea to do? All in all he is a great pup that is learning quick. Now I see why people say the best training is taking him in the woods and hunting.
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Elkhunter
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:38 am

Do you have access to anyone in your area that has a lot of experience? What your describing is common for young dogs, but zapping them would not be something I recommend unless you have introduced an e-collar etc.

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Evanman2010
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:46 am

Yes I have a trainer in my town we see 2 times a month. We have not introduced the e-collar yet other than once and I was not a fan, but I feel like this is the only way to get to him while he is running. I dont want to punish him when he comes to me after chasing.

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:47 am

You must be a heck of a shot to get half the birds you flushed!

You really need help with this dog. Get a good program and follow it before it's too late. Training a dog is like building a house. First a foundation has to be installed.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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bonasa
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by bonasa » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:08 am

Don't use the shock collar yet. Just keep doin what you are doing, if you can get infront and flush the bird or if he goes with you, I'd kill it.

A sequential program is paramount to success. In a nutshell this summer get him to stop/stand/whoa to the tap of a checkcord then overlay it to a nick on the neck without birds. Then overlay it to upwind birds(stop to flush) and then to pointed birds. Won't take that long, sounds like a great pup and your off to a great start!

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Evanman2010
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:00 am

So far I feel that I have him on a pretty good program. Every afternoon I will take about 15 minutes to whoa train him. I have started with the barrel and now onto the ground with a check cord hitched around his waist. I can now whoa him, drop the cord and walk a circle around him at any distance, he will move his head to watch me but will not move his legs. I moved on to placing a wing on the string and dropping it in front of him while whoaing, he still gets excited and tends to creep in but I yank away the wing when he is too close. Im assuming this type of behavior is normal for a pup and I am worrying too much. On top of the whoaing, I take him 2 times a month to our trainer to hunt real birds, whoa train, strengthen his scent etc. I just want to make sure I am on the correct track with this pup and not taking a wrong turn.
Last edited by Evanman2010 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:05 am

@Gonehuntin' why do you say I really need help with my pup? Do you think his actions are not on track or far off for a 9 month old pup? Any suggestions on what type of training I should be doing in addition to the whoa training?

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:10 pm

He barks and chases bird and fur. You said you may get a shock collar and put it on him. You don't get a shock collar and put it on him, it is a step by step program implemented AFTER a dog is trained.

How is his obedience? Does he respond to the whistle?

You didn't put a lot in your post but it looks from reading it that the dog has no basics in him. I have never thought it was beneficial to let any dog chase a bird. It is just creating a problem you'll have to deal with later on.
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by polmaise » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:26 pm

Evanman2010 wrote:Yes I have a trainer in my town we see 2 times a month. We have not introduced the e-collar yet other than once and I was not a fan, but I feel like this is the only way to get to him while he is running. I dont want to punish him when he comes to me after chasing.
Is there any chance you can just run this by me one more time ? I'm not questioning Your trainer or your techniques or any results you have already achieved ! ...ach well heck yes , I am :roll:

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Tooling » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:38 pm

Evanman that is a fine looking dog you have there & it's great that your getting out there w/him and having fun doing it.

As others have stated ~ a shock collar is not an instant fix sort of tool & much damage that will have to be un-done down the road can come from it if it's not introduced and utilized properly.

Your ambitions are wonderful but might I suggest finding your local NAVHDA chapter and give them a call as I am sure they will invite you to attend a training day or two. I think you will find that these folks are very generous with their time and their willingness to help you out. They will answer any questions you may have & you'll get to see some dogs trained to different levels while attending. Before you know it you will be well on your way to turning that nice pup into a bird dog and I highly doubt you will ever regret doing so.

Here is a link to NAVHDA's main site - from there you should be able to locate info for your local chapter

http://www.navhda.org

Good luck and have a great season!

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:32 pm

Thing that scare heck out of me is a pup that won't recall. He could take a deer right out of the country on you and you might never find him.
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by ruffbritt4 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:32 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Thing that scare heck out of me is a pup that won't recall. He could take a deer right out of the country on you and you might never find him.
In this situation after the dog has already been collar conditioned and he is chasing deer, he learns that it is not a good idea. My pup could have learned that lesson last week had the ecollar been on the correct collar setting. 3 collar settings on 1 tri tronics g3 and it got bumped on the wrong one. :oops:

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by khaselow » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:27 am

Great looking pup.

Sounds like you are doing lots of great thinks with your pup and training well.

I would second the idea of joining NAVHDA. Lots of great people, lots of experience, great opportunities to create training or hunting partners, and low cost.

Best of luck to you and your pup

Kent

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:24 am

1st I would like to thank everyone for all the replies, you all are alot of help and this forum is a great asset to have.
2nd I have gave consideration of joining our local NAVHDA but the nearest meet up is 1.5 hrs away :(
3rd I know im not trying to get a world class dog out of my pup. This is my first time training a pointing dog so I am just trying to do it right the first time.

Polmaise
- I had recieved an e-collar as a handed down gift from a friend at work. I tested this collar out on my pup once by myself. Whenever he would not drop a fetched bird I gave him a little buzz (Lowest power setting) he dropped the bird and was fine. I have never used shock collars and was giving it a shot this one time. For my question stated earlier would it be logical to have the shock collar on the pup when hunting but only give him a buzz is when he took off after another animal? Mind you he is still a pup and this was his first time hunting live non pen raised birds. He bolted once after something (maybe a deer, maybe a bird who knows, couldnt see or tell) once I blew the whistle he came running right to my side and we proceded to hunt. I am a bit confused about your question, What are you questioning about me or my trainer? Send me a pm please!

Gonehuntin
- The only time he barks or chases fur is after the bird has taken flight. When he goes on scent he will not bark until the bird is bumped or flushed. When he took off while hunting after a couple seconds I blew my whistle and he came right to my side. I got down gave him a pat and continued hunting. What do you mean by basics? I have talked to several other trainers and they are saying hes a pup and let him hunt, he will learn the most from just the experience alone. Thank you for your input and help with this. If you have any training techniques I should work on or any other input please send me a PM it would be greatly appreciated.
I also understand your concern on a dog running miles and miles away, that was my biggest fear so I invested in a GPS collar and I love it. When and if he chases its a short 10 second burst/chase and then he returns to hunting or if I blow my whistle he will come to me.

Tooling
- I am having the time of my life with this pup, enjoying the outdoors and watching the pup work is the best thing ever. Im 23 years old and this is my first bird dog so this process is a long one. Im know im not going to have a world class hunting dog, I just want one to hunt and be happy doing it. I agree with the shock collar, I have never used them before and using it once on my pup was probably not the best idea but in the end he will drop on command. I am not a fan of training with the shock, never have been. Maybe it is time to look into NAVHDA and drive the extra 1.5hrs a week to the meets. I will be taking him back in the woods in 2 weeks for more hunting so I will see how he does then. I could tell from last trip a huge difference in his hunting after only 3 days, I think the best training is real life hunting.

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by cjhills » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:50 am

Set your sights a little higher. aim for a world class hunting dog. If you do not get one you will still get a good hunting dog. When you call it a shock collar you probably have the wrong idea about it before you start. Go on line and read some of the directions for the collar you have. Using it when he has a bird in his mouth is way wrong. It should be called a enforcing collar. It is not for teaching new things it is for enforcing what he already knows.....Cj

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Evanman2010
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:00 am

You dont know the background of the dropping issue. He would never drop, he knew what the command was with toys etc but when it came to birds he wouldnt let go. We would have to pry his mouth open and even then the bird was trashed. Once he squeezed the bird so tight in his mouth the guts came out of the birds rear. I gave him a buzz only once and he dropped it. Ever since then when I command drop he will gently bring it to my feet and drop. I was testing the waters on it one time and it worked. I have not put the collar on him since.

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Tooling » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:28 am

I am pleased to hear your exuberance with your pup and the fact that you're having a great time w/him really is what it's all about at the end of the day.

Please remember that every individual here at one time was in your boat and thrilled owning their first bird dog. The drive to your NAVHDA chapter will be forgotten as an inconvenience very quickly once you experience what it's all about. The reward that you will receive for your effort as it relates to the relationship with your dog will likely hook you into bird dogs for life...especially once you see one slam into a point with conviction. I promise you, your little buddy really really wants to do this more than you know & the two of you will be the better for it.

A couple suggestions

Lose the wing on the string entirely - all it is doing is encouraging a sight point & it is not teaching your dog to use his nose. That is a game for a pup much younger than yours. A bit of a distraction during whoa training, sure - but find something else. The circles you are walking around your dog is good progress.

Also, there is a patch of loose skin at your dogs haunch which extends up to his side..if pup won't give and if he decides that he would rather not release an object after being told to do so..a little pressure on this area will inspire your dog to drop. Lose the e-collar, for now.

I was about your age when I got my first Shorthair and although I had the very best intentions, I can now reflect back and clearly see so very many mistakes I made with him. Should this bird dog/upland thing stick with you throughout your lifetime as it has mine..I can all but promise you one thing..this pup, being your first will in fact be one of the great ones for you and there will come a time that his memory will never leave your mind. It is important that you do right by him and in doing so, you will be doing right by yourself down the road.

He really is a nice dog & the mere fact that you are getting off your duff and pursuing what is best for him speaks volumes and somehow you strike me as a fine young man that is set to learn just how incredibly gratifying upland hunting with a good bird dog really is. You have not even scratched the surface. I am not alone when I say that I consider bird dogs to be one of the greatest pleasures that life can offer. For me, there is nothing better than a good German Shorthaired Pointer - nothing!

Good luck
Last edited by Tooling on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:31 am

Evanman2010 wrote:You dont know the background of the dropping issue. He would never drop, he knew what the command was with toys etc but when it came to birds he wouldnt let go. We would have to pry his mouth open and even then the bird was trashed. Once he squeezed the bird so tight in his mouth the guts came out of the birds rear. I gave him a buzz only once and he dropped it. Ever since then when I command drop he will gently bring it to my feet and drop. I was testing the waters on it one time and it worked. I have not put the collar on him since.
If it worked I am not going to make any comment about it except that you may have been lucky though I do find that most advice seems to be overly cautious. For your info though, when the dog refuses to drop instead of trying to pry their mouth open and causing them to clamp down even harder just pick the dogs rear up by lifting in the flank area and it will open it's mouth immediately. Just one of the things you will learn as you progress in your training activites.

Ezzy
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:09 pm

When you buzz a dog with an ecollar with mouth issues like yours, you may very well create a bird eater. They chomp out of resentment. Unless a dog has been through a total collar conditioning program, you're playing with fire.

Hence my statement that you have to instill basics. I'd hunt him this year and in Jan. stop all hunting, obedience train and force him or pay someone to do it. Then you'll have something to work with next year. There have probably been more dogs sent to the scrapyard for mouth issues than any other. You have to be very careful of this.
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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:47 am

Thank you for the dropping techniques and I will use them on the next dog I get on down the road but as for this pup the problem was solved. Yes I have tried everything, grabbing his haunches, lifting him in the air, flicking his nose, training with a brush, squeezing his ears, squeezing his rear haunches, everything ive read in books, learned from trainers, etc. Something clicked with him when I tested the e-collar on him once. Ever since then it have been positive reinforcement with treats while playing or with the real bird. It took a couple weeks to nail it in his head but he understands now and will heel to my left side, sit, and drop whatever is in his mouth on command.
Now since that is said, I DO NOT plan on using the e-collar again unless he is trained for it which is not planned in my future. Some people believe training with one is the only way and some people believe the opposite. Each trainer and dog owner believes their method is the best but in the end almost each technique works. I would rather enforce positive rewarding rather than inflicting pain to make my dog do a simple command. When it came down to the dropping that was my last option and it had to be done which I did. I DO NOT RECCOMEND IT TO OTHERS PLEASE SEEK OTHER WAYS TO FIX THIS ISSUE.

First
I would like to thank Tooling for the post I was looking for. Great response and thank you for the positive response. You hit the nail on the head with being young and this as my first pup(First pointer for my family). I do not have the resources many trainers do (Daily Birds, Daily hunting, etc). Im giving this pup my everything, spending more time with him than I do with work or family(He is one lucky pup).

Now to get back on track of my original post.
As for the e-collar I will not use it during hunting if he chases. I now know he is not conditioned for this and could cause a bad outcome. Thank you everyone for the help here.
I have talked with a well known trainer of GSP's and it was mentioned that the birds will teach the pup more and a human could ever reenact. Hunting a pup can be the best training around as for at home keep training the "Whoa" command and your basic obedience training. I have noticed on his last hunt the chase from the beginning of the hunt lasted alot longer than it was at the end of the 3 day hunt. The chase was only a couple seconds and then he knew he could not catch the bird unless it was shot. He learned a great amount in only 3 days hunting.
The next plan is to get a remote bird release, a pigeon call cage or quail cage and start setting up my pup for the real scenario.

Sorry for the long posts and all the conversations but this has been a great amount of help. I hope to any future dog owner to read this and learn just as much as I did to avoid the mistakes that I have encountered. Anyone can read 1000's of books and watch 1000's of movies on how to train, but when it comes to the real deal for a first timer, you will run into issues that you might not know the exact way to fix it. Having a resource to help with your specific questions is a huge asset. Ive learned more in this past 9 months about dogs than I have in my entire life. Thanks again for all the great help. If anyone needs help with anything feel free to send me a PM and I will try my hardest to help in any way.

Thank you
- Evan

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Cicada » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:13 am

Good post Evan very polite and well stated
I too have been training a new GSP and he has the hardest time locking down Grouse I believe it is because of the thick bush we have. He has no problem with Pheasants and Quail. Coveys of Huns.... they are really tough on a young dog. If I were you I would just keep him on the wild birds as much as possible.

Grant

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Please avoid using "my entire life" it really make me feel old :wink:

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Evanman2010 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:20 am

Great advice, thanks for the help. I am going up north this weekend to hopefully get him on some grouse and woodcock. I plan on keeping his check cord on him in hopes to whoa him if he locks onto a bird. Best of luck with your training, getting them on birds can be the best for them, keep up the great work and keep training. Live birds is the best thing for them. Duke is getting pretty bored of the same training day after day. Its time to mix it up a bit in hopes he learns something. They are still young, its like trying to teach a 5 year old to drive a car. Just keep being perceistent and one day it will click.
Cicada, do you have any pics of your pup?

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by ruffbritt4 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:31 pm

Evanman2010 wrote:Great advice, thanks for the help. I am going up north this weekend to hopefully get him on some grouse and woodcock. I plan on keeping his check cord on him in hopes to whoa him if he locks onto a bird. Best of luck with your training, getting them on birds can be the best for them, keep up the great work and keep training. Live birds is the best thing for them. Duke is getting pretty bored of the same training day after day. Its time to mix it up a bit in hopes he learns something. They are still young, its like trying to teach a 5 year old to drive a car. Just keep being perceistent and one day it will click.
Cicada, do you have any pics of your pup?
If it were me I'd forget the checkcord. It's just going to get tangled and be a detriment to the dog. He's a puppy, let him bump birds. You've shot one for him so he knows what he's after, so let him go and learn from the best trainer, the grouse.

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Re: GSP's First hunt 9 Months old

Post by Cicada » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:02 pm

Cicada, do you have any pics of your pup?

He is the one in the middle on the sig, line

Grant

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