How does it work in America?

[TheSwede]

Hello GunDogForum!

Greetings from Swedish Lapland! I have a year-and-a-half old brittany that I use for hunting birds here in Sweden in the forest and in the mountains (capercaillie, grouse, and ptarmigan). Bird hunting is pretty big in Sweden, and from what I understand we have a different way of hunting with our dogs than you do in America or they do in continental Europe. Here when the dog is on point for birds, we train them to flush out the birds on command while we stand behind them ("Avance!"), then when the bird flies off we tell the dog to sit, and when the dog sits down we shoot the bird and then tell the dog to go retrieve the bird (if the dog has come that far in training). The hardest part of this is getting the dog to sit down immediately while running full speed toward some birds that I just told him to flush out, and we don't shoot the birds unless the dog has sat down so that we don't risk shooting the dog. Some people aren't very consistent with this or maybe don't care to follow this way of doing things here, but they're considered to not have well-trained dogs.

Here's a clip of ptarmigan hunting in the mountains near where I live with some very well-trained dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM16jIxHuKg

Anyway, I've seen some American bird hunting clips on YouTube that seem to show a very different way of hunting with bird dogs than we have in Sweden (I've only watched clips of brittanys), so I joined this forum to see if I might be able to get an explanation from the hunters here about what you do in America once the dog is on point? From what I've seen, you walk in front of the dog when the dog is on point, kick up the birds yourself, then the birds fly up, and you shoot and the dog chases after the birds once they fly up. Is that right? Or is it like here where what people do and what people SHOULD do may be different things? From a Swedish point of view I like the fact that you're scaring up the birds and shooting with the dog behind you, which then requires less training of the dog and minimizes the risk of shooting the dog, but I'd love to hear from you as to what you do and why!

[Gertie]

Welcome to the forum! My great grandparents were Swedish and I would very much like to go there someday. It looks really beautiful. Great video! When I actually make the trip I might have to do it during bird season. Absolutely stunning country.

As for your dog question, you might get a few different answers as there is a bit of personal preference involved. The first thing I noticed with your video is that your dogs work very close. Some prefer it that way here as well but, and I'm going out on a limb here based on my experience, it seems that most of us prefer our pointing breeds to run a little "bigger" (up to .8 kilometer or more). That lends well to the dog holding until you get in front of it. In the hunting method for pointing breeds that I am most familiar with the general rule is that the dog goes on point, you walk in front of it, birds flush, you shoot, bird(s) fall, then you walk back to your dog and release him to retrieve. The major variations on the scenario start with the gun firing. Some prefer to allow the dog to break point on the shot and my assumption here is the idea that the bird will be easier to retrieve if the dog goes with the shot rather than waiting. The other variation is on the retrieve. My experience with pointing dogs is that retrieving is inconsistent until the dog is trained for a conditioned retrieve. I personally haven't gotten around to doing that yet so the retrieves I get are sporadic at best and sometimes non-existent (meaning I have to go pick up the bird). I plan to remedy that at some point but it is what it is for now. Again, just deductions on my part, but as to the "why" some of us choose to wait until the bird falls would be a) safety; if you are shooting in front of the dog then presumably there is a less likely chance of an accident b) marking; if the dog stays on point then they will have a better chance to see where the birds fall, particularly if you are lucky enough to get a couple birds in one flush and c) field trials; in some field trials (excluding retrieve stakes, of course) a blank gun is fired after the bird flushes and the dog is expected to stand until after the shot is fired and the handler walks back and releases the dog. Your way sounds like it has a lot of merit and utility but I agree with you that it sounds like a lot more training is required. Anyway, there's my two cents. Hopefully some other folks chime in here because I'm sure there is more to it than what I have mentioned. Take care!

[Gordon Guy]

I think you pretty much summed it up Gertie. Good dog work is defined by the owner, and manners are generally...generally ....dictated by what that definition is, a bird in the bag, personal preference or a ribbon on the wall. I would imagine it's the same there too.

And welcome!

[gonehuntin']

Thank you for posting that video, really interesting. Some of us DO have the dog flush the bird here. It is not allowed for field trial dog's, but hunting and field trailing are two different things. Many, many, hunters let the dog flush the bird but most dog's do not sit to flush at the flush. Spaniels do but pointing dog's do not. I think that the way your dog's are trained is the ultimate way a dog should be trained for the hunter. I have mine flush on command but at the shot, she's gone.

[pato y codoniz]

I've had the pleasure of living on both sides of the pond and bird hunting both the United States and the European continent.

In the United States, the preferred method for pointing breeds and, for most people, the definition of a trained dog is for a pointing dog to be steady to wing and shot. What that means is that once the dog goes on point, he doesn't move until released after the bird is shot.

I do it a little differently than most. Since I've always concurrently owned pointing and retrieving breeds, I'll hunt with the pointing breeds ranging and a lab at heel. Once there is a point, I'll send the lab to flush, sit to flush, and, depending on the dog on point, to retrieve.