Circling the bird, do you know how to train for it?

[Thornapple]

All
I raised this question with another on this forum, but I would be curious if anyone of you have knowledge of, or experience with this.
Is it possible to train a dog to circle a bird? For those of you not familiar with this trait the dog runs around the bird and pins the bird coming opposite to you and facing you. It finds the bird and then runs around in a wide circle blocking it. If you have ever seen this in a dog it is a sight to behold. I had one dog learn to do it first over running cock pheasants and then later all birds. Needless to say we never went hungry. It is so effective that my old Ryman English setter was always the go-to dog for bird hunts. However I have never figured out how to train a dog to do this.
All that I have asked say it is something that either they learn or not, however I am curious if anyone has figured it out?
Thornapple

[DogNewbie]

Interesting question. Every time I've read about dogs circling birds it's been associated with the beginnings of the dog blinking birds.

[Thornapple]

Blinking is a man-made problem. The most common cause of blinking occurs when the dog associates finding birds with being corrected. That is why a good trainer will advise you never to use your e-collar on a pointed bird. You can give him the wrong message when you correct him for crowding (roading in, creeping, jumping in, and, in some cases, breaking and chasing). Instead of learning to stand off his game, the dog learns that not going on point will avoid the unpleasantness of being punished i.e. e-collar! For some dogs, the punishment can be as mild as being "set back" (picking the dog up and putting him back in place) a few times. There are exceptions to this, but I would only consult a professional trainer for advice and not your buddy who claims to know all about upland dogs. On this I have had a fair amount of bad experience!

If you watch closely, some dogs that blink birds will abruptly turn their head away when they find a bird. They are displaying an avoidance response. (That is what we would like to see if they found a rattlesnake, but not a bird!) Sometimes the avoidance response (blinking) is much more subtle and harder to read. The dog doesn't turn its head away but just acts like his nose isn't working. Again, a good trainer will see this, you and or your buddy will most often not.

But, whatever the response, the problem is the same: he has associated finding birds with something that doesn't make him feel good. That is why I was advised many many years ago to let your dog find lots of birds and do not worry about the flush, let him have fun. He will eventually learn to hold, most dogs ultimately will. What I am talking about is post graduate work, circling the bird alread on point or a pincer movement.

With circling the dog points, usually from a safe distance, then quickly but quietly circles the bird coming from the opposite direction. It is more effective and more often found with dogs working pheasants or quail. My Spinone yesterday did it twice with a cock pheasant. The bird was attempting to hide. My dog made scent and with out needing to see it (another issue!) she stepped back and circled keeping the bird between herself and me. This obviously prevented running, and established a flush in both cases. Grouse on the other hand are not so cooperative, or they have gone to a better graduate school, and will frequently prematurely flush before you get there, or they won't. Sometimes it works like a charm, others not so.
Does this answer your question?
Thornapple

[Mountaineer]

A Preserve pheasant is not a wild pheasant, on average....different graduate school.
Nothing much dumber than any released bird awaiting it's fate.
As not all ruffed grouse are equal in behavior either, before or away from either dog or scattergun.
Ruffed grouse are special for several reasons important to me but they are not routinely at the head of the class, as a given.

[Ruffshooter]

A dog that has the sense to circle a bird is a smart dog. It is trying to keep the bird from getting away and not make it flush. That is something in the dog something that is part of that particular dog.

Can you train for it? Not sure how you can and I believe you can train for many odd situations but that one depends on a bird that is playing the chess game with your dog and your dog trying to create a stale mate.

Also a lot of experience when they are young on wild birds. Birds teach or bring out most of these down deep smarts or instincts.

All My Opinion. I have had just three that have done that routinely.

[tennquailhunter]

Well I have an older dog Sally from the time she turned 2 she has pin down running roosters this way. If she thinks the other dogs backing smell the bird she will ease herself backwards slowly watching the other dogs ,if they move she goes back tight on point. if they stay steady she will keep backing out and circle way around. can't tell you how many times she has done this over the years, I suppose some would want to break her from this habit. none of my other dogs have ever tryed to do this. I started once to break her of it but figured out she knows alot more about finding birds and making them stick than i ever know.
She has even stoped a covey of quail from running out the end of a fence roll.ran out about 30 yards in winter wheat field and eased back slow to the end.

TQ

[smittty]

i to have a setter that is very good at circleing and cuting off running birds...this is something a dog needs to figure out on his own in my opinoin.. i figure myself lucky to havea dog that is good at it

[Thornapple]

Smitty, what sort of birds do you hunt and in what conditions? Also, how long did it take for you dog to learn this trait? Did you notice the first time it happened, and what was the circumstance? Do you recall?
Thornapple

[smittty]

yes first few times it happend it was while he was holding point and the birds were running on us and i released him after a while he figured out if he came around on the scent he was cuting theses birds off.. now he lets me know or i can tell by he's actions if the birds are moveing and i give him th ok and he makes a big circle on the scent

[tennquailhunter]

Mine was on a preserve hunt for pheasant in Illionois. we kept trying to pin down a rooster, he kept moving and i was out of place when she came running by me, the guys we where with told me how she backed out ? and she sure pin the darn thing between her and the other dogs. next time we where in kansas, she kept raising her head high and turning pushing her ears up kinda, they finally pointed and you could see where the bird had been and ran off. we moved forward and agin same thing, she finally pointed and held till we got up close the other dogs stood still and she eased backwards,, i just knew that bird would take flight, she circled out and came back in about 1oo yards ahead and stoped just standing there as we aproached with the other dogs she leaned in an pointed. sure enough the other dogs pointed from our end and we got a rooster out in front of her 15 yards away from her nose. we had chased that one rooster half a section.

T.Q.

[birddogger]

I don't think it can be trained. I believe there are some dogs that have enough experience with certain types of birds and are wise enough to figure it out. I am pretty sure that a whole lot of people on here would find it an undesirable behavior, would not consider the dog "broke" and would break the dog to not move, especially field trialers [for good reason]. As for myself I think it is great for a hunting dog and a beautiful thing to watch. My dogs don't necessarily do this but they do relocate on their own when birds are moving or running and is something I allow and admire, where a lot of people would look down on this. As I said though, I believe it is something a dog learns on his/her own from experience and is not something that can be taught/trained. JMO.

Charlie

[TXShooter]

My buddy has a Pointer that will ground trail a running covey of quail from the upwind side. He will keep looking ahead for a place to make his move.

When he sees a place where he can make a fast circle to the front he will bolt out, then come in from the downwind side and pin the birds.

It is a sight to behold. These are wild birds.

[campgsp]

I don't think you can train a dog to do that. At least I never have. Dogs learn to do this with exposure and time.

But on a side note teaching a dog to run out and work back toward you could be a way of training for this. But its more blocking between you and the dog then circling the found bird.

[Fran Seagren]

We had a brittany that did this when hunting wild pheasants about 12 years ago. I was hunting along a berm with my lab, Jonz, and my husband was down below hunting his brit, Franki. I saw her go on a point and I was at a perfect "viewing" spot, so I sat down with my lab and watched. My husband was coming up behind her, but was still quite a way back. The cover was thick enough that he didn't see her yet. While I watched, I saw Franki lift her head, then back up a couple steps before moving a few feet around the bush and into another point. Then, I actually saw the rooster start to move out the other side. Franki couldn't see the rooster from where she stood, but she must have smelled it moving. She did the same thing again and moved around to the other side and pointed. That's when my husband was getting closer. He saw her on a point and "jumps" to attention. He walked in, flushed, and shot the bird - not knowing what Franki had just done (until I told him later - this was before we had two-way radios).

Maybe when we teach/release them to "relocate" when birds have moved, some pointing dogs just figure it out and start doing it on their own.

Fran

[millerms06]

Is it possible to train a dog to circle a bird?
Thornapple

Could it be hypothesized that it is programmed early on in the dog when it learns how to quarter? The pattern developed would pose probability in circling a bird through experience hunting specific cover and species. How the dog utilizes successful experiences, through its own efforts, would determine the dog's overall intelligence in sequencing? Thus it would be a trait that is solely regulated by the dog, but enlightened by the handler early in the dog's life.

The cover was thick enough that he didn't see her yet. While I watched, I saw Franki lift her head, then back up a couple steps before moving a few feet around the bush and into another point. Then, I actually saw the rooster start to move out the other side. Franki couldn't see the rooster from where she stood, but she must have smelled it moving.

Maybe when we teach/release them to "relocate" when birds have moved, some pointing dogs just figure it out and start doing it on their own.
Fran

In this case I would agree that this would be the result of allowing the dog to "relocate" in past experiences. IMO this would be another example of how the dog learned the trait early on, and regulated such experience on its own as it matures. Again showing an example of the dog's intelligence in independently regulating a sequence. All of which could potentially be a consistent outcome or a once in awhile circumstance.

[Thornapple]

Mathew,
I am begining to sense from all that have written and have experienced a circling dog apparently learns from relocating at first and then picks up the idea of a pincer movement in the process of relocating. Hunting wth dogs for some 59 years it never ceases to amaze me how much smarter dogs are than their handlers, including yours truly! I met an attorney from South Carolina up in Minnesota two years ago that went on and on about how smart his dog was, as if it was better than most. I knew he was proud of his puppy, but it reminded me that we frequently do not give hunting dogs credit for what they accomplish. They after all are pretty smart partners of ours, if we let them.
I am not sure this condition of circling is just on preserve birds either, although it certainly is easier. I have seen a Brittany in New Hampshire do this effectively with grouse, and a Llewellyn in Georgia do the same with a wild covey in a hard scrabble abandoned farm so I know it can be done on wild birds! So I know it can be done.
Thornapple

[birddogger]

Mathew,
I am begining to sense from all that have written and have experienced a circling dog apparently learns from relocating at first and then picks up the idea of a pincer movement in the process of relocating. Hunting wth dogs for some 59 years it never ceases to amaze me how much smarter dogs are than their handlers, including yours truly! I met an attorney from South Carolina up in Minnesota two years ago that went on and on about how smart his dog was, as if it was better than most. I knew he was proud of his puppy, but it reminded me that we frequently do not give hunting dogs credit for what they accomplish. They after all are pretty smart partners of ours, if we let them.
I am not sure this condition of circling is just on preserve birds either, although it certainly is easier. I have seen a Brittany in New Hampshire do this effectively with grouse, and a Llewellyn in Georgia do the same with a wild covey in a hard scrabble abandoned farm so I know it can be done on wild birds! So I know it can be done.
Thornapple

I agree, I think they learn from relocating at first and progress from there. I also agree that once a dog figures this out, he will use this trick whether it is wild or preserve birds.

Charlie

[cjhills]

My question:
Assuming the dog is pointing from downwind of the bird, he will be upwind when he circles the bird. How does he locate the bird? Does the bird run straight ahead or to the side? What if the dog goes right and the bird goes left? Some pheasants out run a pretty fast dog and don't run in a straight line. I have heard of this. Have not seen it, seems to me like you would get more accidental flushes since the dog would have no scent to work with. Maybe sound or luck. I don't get it. Cj

[Thornapple]

cjchills,
You are correct; some cock birds in particular will simply get up and run, and will give a greyhound a run for their money! It happened to me Sunday, and my puppy is fast but lost that race. The situation is best created when you have a bird that has not started to run yet.
Sunday here in Pennsylvania was a good example. It was heavy mist, not rain, which is good for scent. My older dog repositioned herself on a bird hidden in some roots of a tree. I cannot say it was blocking, but she did move opposite of me. In strong winds of course a dog is going to lose scent going up wind. However, we don't always have strong windy days. Even in a breeze a dog with a decent nose can pick up a bird that has moved recently to its current position up wind of the dog. The bird leaves scent all around at this point. If you read the post I wrote about why a bird dog passes by a bird, as mine have, you will notice in the thread of statements from more knowledgeable hunters (than myself), that it usually is a bird that just flew into and plopped itself down. It leaves little scent or it has been raining, which washes scent away.

The more I read others experiences, the more I watch my and others dogs, and talk to bird dog owners it is an experiential learning behavior causing a dog to learn circling. A smart and well trained dog will cautiously reposition itself. I am not talking about a running bird now, but one that is walking. However I do know of a GSHP bitch that loves to circle running birds which I think is an exception. In any case what I and others have noticed is how the dog will move in such a way as to face the bird. This may be due to sighting the bird or scenting, I am not sure. But it happens. When it happens a very good dog will learn, again by what works, to do it again, and then again, etc.
Now, to be sure a good dog does not need to circle. I have an outstanding dog that does not. Yet it is a phenomenon that is not only fun to watch, but effective when it happens!
I do not know if this answered your question.
Thornapple

[slistoe]

You don't get accidental flushes because the dog is not following up on the bird. When the dog leaves in another direction the bird is not inclined to flush because it has evaded the predator. It is when the dog starts following directly on the path of the bird that the bird is forced to keep on moving to get away from the predator and when the predator gets the heat up too much the bird chooses to fly rather than run. Dogs that follow the ground scent on moving birds will push birds for a long way, dogs that leave the scent trail allow the birds to quit running.
When I was hunting a lot of pheasants I tried to "train" the dogs that didn't get it but they were pretty slow learners. The ones that did get it I didn't train. So, no, I don't have any insight into being able to train for it because I actually tried on more than one dog.

[cjhills]

I guess I still am missing something. I had a Border Collie who was a very good pheasant hunting dog. She would circle a bird and attempt to flush it toward me. Sometimes it work. That was her herding instinct, not her pointing instinct which she would also do.
if the pointing dog circles the bird and comes into with wind on his back he will likely flush it before he knows where it is. If you shoot it you are on your way to having a flushing dog. Why not just train the dog to flush on command like a Springer. There must be some I am not seeing here.
one thing in the Dakotas A calm day is when your hat stays on. most days are breezy. Cj

[millerms06]

You don't get accidental flushes because the dog is not following up on the bird. When the dog leaves in another direction the bird is not inclined to flush because it has evaded the predator.

I tend to agree with this and saw a bit of it last year. Both of my V's were working a section of field upwind that had thigh high cover. The wind was pretty consistent and strong that day. Once we finished the section I thought there had to been a bird there because a few guys ran the edges on both sides before us and got nothing. I turned the dogs downwind and went back through the field not in the area we worked. Every time, the dogs made half circles turning themselves into the wind and working toward me. We pinned three birds in that field doing this. Not one of the birds flushed until I got closer to the dog on point.

if the pointing dog circles the bird and comes into with wind on his back he will likely flush it before he knows where it is. If you shoot it you are on your way to having a flushing dog. Why not just train the dog to flush on command like a Springer. There must be some I am not seeing here.
one thing in the Dakotas A calm day is when your hat stays on. most days are breezy. Cj

To me if the dog is pointing downwind, sight would be at use. However since we do not truly know how a given scent will disperse in a low wind situation, on that given day (i.e wind speed, humidity, temperature, and thermal controlled movement of scent molecules) it is possible for a dog to still scent some of the bird if it is downwind. But my first inclination would be sight.

I agree, I think they learn from relocating at first and progress from there. I also agree that once a dog figures this out, he will use this trick whether it is wild or preserve birds.

Charlie

.

I totally agree with you Charlie.

[Thornapple]

As I do not hunt the prairies, so I can not attest to whether it exists there or not. My sense is it occurs eveywhere, but that is just a guess.

Circling is something some dogs learn, many do not, as you will discover in this string of posts. Flushing occurs when a dog decides to push the bird for a flush as with a Springer, Cocker, etc. In circling it is the repositioning of a point. In other words a dog repositions its self with a point directly opposit of the gunner. I have had border collies on the farm do this. Our Rascal would reposition itself with the sheep we had as well as holsteins. That is coming in from the opposite directin to herd to block it, hold its position, then move into another position to guide. This is not dissimiliar to what I am writing about, although certainly not any where as effective as what a border collie or other herding dog performs.
Thornapple

[cjhills]

As I do not hunt the prairies, so I can not attest to whether it exists there or not. My sense is it occurs eveywhere, but that is just a guess.

Circling is something some dogs learn, many do not, as you will discover in this string of posts. Flushing occurs when a dog decides to push the bird for a flush as with a Springer, Cocker, etc. In circling it is the repositioning of a point. In other words a dog repositions its self with a point directly opposit of the gunner. I have had border collies on the farm do this. Our Rascal would reposition itself with the sheep we had as well as holsteins. That is coming in from the opposite directin to herd to block it, hold its position, then move into another position to guide. This is not dissimiliar to what I am writing about, although certainly not any where as effective as what a border collie or other herding dog performs.
Thornapple

Or flushing occurs when the dog has no idea where the bird is and accidently flushes it.
The border collies are sight pointing on the sheep and cows. I'm not trying to start a argument I would like to understand it. I would like to have a dog which would do that. I'm trying to figure out how this works, since I have heard about it but never seen it. Some very prominent breeders have told me their dogs do this. They haven't showed me though.
In the above post about the Visla's, They are simply circling into the wind and scent pointing. Running past the bird and scent pointing down wind is a totally different thing and if they would accidently run onto the bird they would flush it.
My take is this: if the dog is scent pointing we would expect him to be on the down wind side of the bird. If the bird moves away from the dog, be it running, walking or what ever chances are the bird will run up wind, when the dog makes a circle, whatever the size he somehow needs to get ahead of the bird, he then needs to relocate the bird, now he is on the upwind side. some say the bird has hunkered down because he thinks he is safe since the dog has left his trail. Now the question is how does the dog relocate said bird which is hunkered down, giving off very little scent and down wind. If he accidentally stumbles onto it it runs or flushes. niether is good.
Help me out here. Cj

[birddogger]

You don't get accidental flushes because the dog is not following up on the bird. When the dog leaves in another direction the bird is not inclined to flush because it has evaded the predator. It is when the dog starts following directly on the path of the bird that the bird is forced to keep on moving to get away from the predator and when the predator gets the heat up too much the bird chooses to fly rather than run. Dogs that follow the ground scent on moving birds will push birds for a long way, dogs that leave the scent trail allow the birds to quit running.
When I was hunting a lot of pheasants I tried to "train" the dogs that didn't get it but they were pretty slow learners. The ones that did get it I didn't train. So, no, I don't have any insight into being able to train for it because I actually tried on more than one dog.

Well said and right on.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

agreed Scott....I believe its just something the smarter dogs figure out thru lots of exposure and experience.

[Vision]

Years ago I think Jerome Robinson wrote an article in Sports Afield about how to train your dog to circle pheasants. If I remember correctly he mowed a long strip in his training field. Over the mowed strip he made a tunnel out of chicken wire. On each end he had a door. He also built a cage on each end. The idea was to plant a rooster pheasant in the cage, bring the dog in to point. Once the dog pointed he would open the cage allowing the pheasant to run down the chicken wire tunnel. He would then move the dog off point with a checkcord and run a big circle to the other end of the tunnel. Once the dog established point again on the pheasant he would pop the door open and kill the pheasant for the dog.

I'm sure dogs would get the idea with a few reps in such a set-up.

[slistoe]

If the bird moves away from the dog, be it running, walking or what ever chances are the bird will run up wind,

Therein lies the fallacy in your thought process. The bird moves away from the dog - encompassing somewhere in a 270 degree arc. The dog moves ahead, determines the direction of travel of the bird then drops off the trail to the downwind side, sprints ahead till it reestablishes body scent on the bird itself whereupon it points a now stationary bird who has hunkered in, believing the dog to be moving on past and is awaiting it's passing. Dog and bird are now locked in the "he who blinks first" impasse allowing the hunter to move in close on the bird. Should the bird actually move off directly upwind the dog will have no need to relocate the body scent - he already has it. Moving in on foot scent is such a scenario is a fruitless exercise and even my slow learners could figure that one out.

[slistoe]

Years ago I think Jerome Robinson wrote an article in Sports Afield about how to train your dog to circle pheasants. If I remember correctly he mowed a long strip in his training field. Over the mowed strip he made a tunnel out of chicken wire. On each end he had a door. He also built a cage on each end. The idea was to plant a rooster pheasant in the cage, bring the dog in to point. Once the dog pointed he would open the cage allowing the pheasant to run down the chicken wire tunnel. He would then move the dog off point with a checkcord and run a big circle to the other end of the tunnel. Once the dog established point again on the pheasant he would pop the door open and kill the pheasant for the dog.

I'm sure dogs would get the idea with a few reps in such a set-up.

Well, I didn't have a tunnel, but that was the general idea. As I said earlier, the ones that got it did so on their own, and those that didn't..... didn't. And believe me, once you have a few dogs that do it, and do it well, you will want all your dogs to do it and will expend some effort to attempt to get it. I have no idea if the propensity to learn such behaviour could be enhanced through breeding selection.

[Trekmoor]

I have never trained a dog to do this and I have had only one brittany that began to do it naturally on wild bred pheasants when she was about 2 years old. She seemed to realise that the bird was running on from her point and that I would not walk fast enough to catch up on it. She'd run well out in a big semi-circle then hunt hard and fast back towards me with the wind now blowing from behind her. She found and flushed the bird with her feet which sometimes gave me a driven shot if the bird didn't fly out to the side.

This did not lead to her beginning to work like a spaniel, she pointed very well always.
I am told the Germans deliberately train for this but I don't know how and I probably wouldn't train for it if I did know how to....too many things could begin to go wrong.

Bill T.

[Thornapple]

trekmoor,
It is interesting the replies to the intial question of how to train a dog to circle. In fact I have seen Brittany's, Lewellyn's and GSHP's circle more than any other breed. Not that this mean anything other than that has been my experience. I am sure theer are others, but those that we have seen do this more than others. In asking those whose dogs perform this, and it is almost all over wild pheasants out west, how and why their dogs did it they give the same response you do. None train for it, it just happens. That is why I asked the question in the begining.
There are a couple of observations a few of the fellows and I came up with which are just that, observations and not based on fact. That is the dogs all of us have seen this happen with are by and large faster running dogs. Dogs that are able to run quick enough to circle a bird, and not either frieghten it, or intimidate it. The other thing is these dogs run in an a large arc usually not always up wind, but about 180 degrees from where they started or at least facing a walking or running bird. They then always go back on point. Several writers to this thread mentioned that wind therefore scent is too overwhelming a factor for a dog to perform this. That in fact has not been our experience. Again this is just an observation, not based on any consistant data that proves this always would be the case in all conditions. Also we noticed that a fast running cock bird, and this is the part that creates disagreement, a dog that circles will not chase. Why we do not know, but it is our guess is that the dog knows it will not win that race. I repeat there is a lot of disagreement about this.
So in the end some dogs perform this learning it on their own, and all we can do is be surprised when it happens, know your dog is smart as the "bleep", and enjoy the results.
Thornapple

[pointer]

I have twenty plus pointers and setters. I have four or five pointers that have learned to circle and pin birds. I have no setters who have learned the trait and most seem to scent runners following directly on the birds trail. The trait also seems to run somewhat in the genetics as I have seen sons and daughters of parents who do it have the same trait.

To answer the OP, I don't know how you train for it. However I do have some idea of what my dogs have in traits that might lead to the behavior. If I were to describe them, I would say that they have exceptional noses and a brain to match. They have been dogs that broke easily and enjoyed standing their birds without much pressure and were dogs that loved birds but did not exhibited a big desire to break point and drive at a bird to catch. Most all also had a natural drive to retrieve and enjoy doing it very much and most also were not great natural backers.

In regards to training. All were broke simply to the flush or the flush and shot and were never rewarded for poorly handled birds. All were allowed to naturally relocated as they saw fit to do, but were never rewarded for bumped or flushed birds. I believe their desire to retrieve birds and the understanding that they were not going to get a bird that they bumped or flushed, helped develop the trait. I think that their brains and their desire to produce the bird for their own benefit (retrieve), further enhanced the tendency.

The exceptional ones have an uncanny ability to know how much pressure to apply without flushing and where to stop beyond the bird. They apply enough pressure but rarely mess up on a bird. Most will work wide on the downwind side if it is crossing but to explain how they know how far to go to establish point without the aid of wind is something I can not explain. It appears to me that the dog knows that by applying pressure to the bird from off the scent trail, the bird feels pressure from the approaching dog and will simply try to hid to allow the dog to run past. How wide the dog goes and how far to get in front of the bird are all things that only the dog can explain. I have no idea how they do it but they do it very well. Once the bird is between the dog and handler, the hunter approaching the dog forces the bird to flush because it has no option of running ahead towards the dog.

My dogs have been successful at using the technique on every type of bird you can name. They have been extremely successful on ruffed grouse that run as well as all of the gamebirds found in the midwest. Whether the bird is wild or released, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference. It is absolutely amazing to watch a dog do it and something that we as trainers and hunting companions will likely never be able to explain.

[Thornapple]

Pointer,
Last evening the Mason Dixon German Short Hair Club had its annual dinner and I asked this same question from a recent transplant from Kansas. He has several GSHPs and wanted to know if he had experienced this or better yet knew of anyone that trained for it? In fact he did, and this is how he described what the trainer did.

The trainer cut a swath of high grass (so no sighting can be done) enough so the dog was just outside the scent cone (how he knew where that scent cone was on any given day I do not know, or if it even mattered). Also I do not know what the radius is but large enough to resonably simulate what one might expect a dog to run in. Then he built a mound of dirt in the center of the circle to place a trap with a bird. The type of bird did not matter. on either side of the mound he again mowed four strips in from the circumfrance to allow the dog to come in closer to the mound; not completely but enough for the dog to ensure picking up scent.
With the bird in the trap, he would bring the dog up into the circle on a check chord and as soon as he noticed the head turning in the direction of the trap (the dog did not have to be inside the cut grass as the scent cone would always change depending on the degree of wind, but it was essential to carefully look for the dog's scent identification. Then he would immediatley run with the dog to the opposite side and let the dog move in to establish point, 180 degrees from where he started. I was told he would do this three times comining in from different directions then quit and do it again the next day. This is how one seems to have trained for this.
Knowing that I have slower running dogs he said that this is a great technique not just for pointers and short hairs, but the slower breeds as well such as pointing labs, spinoni, some of the larger setters like Rymans, etc. I am going to try it as soon as we have long grass again and see if it works.
Thornapple

[Mountaineer]

Some dogs can get very good at following a lawn mower's tracks....too good, in fact.
Quite honestly, far too much is made of training over exposure-based learning in actual conditions re wild gamebirds.
I'm sure dogs enjoy the attention but training often seems most about a bored dog owner, at a certain point.

[Neil]

Yes, but I won't do it, and will correct a dog for trying it on his own.

I have found it better to have the dog hit the birds hard and hold them in place. If they must relocate, do it even faster. Some birds will flush wild, enough will hold if you are quiet enough and the dog fast enough.

[slistoe]

Yes, but I won't do it, and will correct a dog for trying it on his own.

I have found it better to have the dog hit the birds hard and hold them in place. If they must relocate, do it even faster. Some birds will flush wild, enough will hold if you are quiet enough and the dog fast enough.

That is the key right there.
Bold dogs hold birds, the rest push and herd them.

[Tejas]

There was a pro named Jack ? who lived in Manhattan Kansas who used to train in this manner. I can't recall if I first read of it in Gun Dog or some other magazine. I visited him to look at a pup in '83 or '84. He was the first person I ever saw with kennels off the ground. He had a whole swath of both pointer and setter pups.

Years ago I think Jerome Robinson wrote an article in Sports Afield about how to train your dog to circle pheasants. If I remember correctly he mowed a long strip in his training field. Over the mowed strip he made a tunnel out of chicken wire. On each end he had a door. He also built a cage on each end. The idea was to plant a rooster pheasant in the cage, bring the dog in to point. Once the dog pointed he would open the cage allowing the pheasant to run down the chicken wire tunnel. He would then move the dog off point with a checkcord and run a big circle to the other end of the tunnel. Once the dog established point again on the pheasant he would pop the door open and kill the pheasant for the dog.

I'm sure dogs would get the idea with a few reps in such a set-up.

[whatsnext]

Yes, but I won't do it, and will correct a dog for trying it on his own.

I have found it better to have the dog hit the birds hard and hold them in place. If they must relocate, do it even faster. Some birds will flush wild, enough will hold if you are quiet enough and the dog fast enough.

I see this with my young britt and pheasants if he gets wind of one from a distance he slows down and does not put enough pressure on them goes on point but they just keep moving and when i get to him the birds have ran off or they flush wild. But when he suddenly finds one on a run they usually hold for him.

[teambirdslayer]

I have seen my GSP do this in situations where birds are moving. I first noticed it in Kansas a year and a half ago while i he was on point and i had given him "woe", he looked at me kind of funny so i released him and he quartered on the bird and pinned it down. Since then i've noticed that if the bird holds tight he holds point and if the bird moves he'll circle and pin it. Sometimes birds flush prematurely but i don't stress over it because he's still young and i can see the wheels spinning in his head and he is a quick study and continues to learn from each experience. he's learning to point from a safer distance and not crowd the birds. Besides, he's having a blast and i love watching him and that's more important to me than birds in the bag, which we always end up with.

[Neil]

I have read the great setter Count Noble was thrown out of some trials for blinking, when his trainer said he was circling.

BTW. One of the most interesting of the displays at the Bird Dog Museum is the full mount of the Count on point complete with a cover of quail in native habitat. I have spent hours studying it, it says so much.

[USMC]

My great DD has trained me to go around and approach the pointed bird from the front......

[buckeyebowman]

trekmoor,
It is interesting the replies to the intial question of how to train a dog to circle. In fact I have seen Brittany's, Lewellyn's and GSHP's circle more than any other breed. Not that this mean anything other than that has been my experience. I am sure theer are others, but those that we have seen do this more than others. In asking those whose dogs perform this, and it is almost all over wild pheasants out west, how and why their dogs did it they give the same response you do. None train for it, it just happens. That is why I asked the question in the begining.
There are a couple of observations a few of the fellows and I came up with which are just that, observations and not based on fact. That is the dogs all of us have seen this happen with are by and large faster running dogs. Dogs that are able to run quick enough to circle a bird, and not either frieghten it, or intimidate it. The other thing is these dogs run in an a large arc usually not always up wind, but about 180 degrees from where they started or at least facing a walking or running bird. They then always go back on point. Several writers to this thread mentioned that wind therefore scent is too overwhelming a factor for a dog to perform this. That in fact has not been our experience. Again this is just an observation, not based on any consistant data that proves this always would be the case in all conditions. Also we noticed that a fast running cock bird, and this is the part that creates disagreement, a dog that circles will not chase. Why we do not know, but it is our guess is that the dog knows it will not win that race. I repeat there is a lot of disagreement about this.
So in the end some dogs perform this learning it on their own, and all we can do is be surprised when it happens, know your dog is smart as the "bleep", and enjoy the results.
Thornapple

My buddy has a GSHP bitch that does this, and God knows we certainly didn't train her how to do it! She just figured it out on her own. At our club we hunt stocked pheasant. Around here, if you want to hunt pheasant, that's your only choice. Better than nothing I guess. I suppose it may depend on your bird supplier, but I've noticed that for the past couple of years the roosters we've been getting have been larger, and stronger flyers than in years past. And it doesn't take them very long to figure out what their legs are for!

Much of our club is made up of old limestone quarries and the associated piles of mine till. These have grown up into the nastiest, most God-awful thickets you can imagine! A man simply cannot walk through them, it's either crawl on hands and knees or your belly! Well, the dog would disappear into one of these while we would wait on the path. There are a few paths cut through these places, but not nearly enough. Some thickets are easily 200 yards across. We'd wait a while and next thing we'd hear the cackle and flush, and here comes a rooster flying in our direction! This happens far too often for it to be a chance occurrence. We began to wonder if the dog was circling the bird and pointing it until it got nervous enough to fly, if she was creeping, or outright trying to flush the bird in our direction. Since we can't see the dog in there we have no way of knowing.

Oddly enough, when Abigail (her name) gets a chance to point a bird in what would be considered more "classic" upland cover, she is rock solid on point! We had another instance of this just a couple of months ago. In this case the bird ran out of one of those thickets, and Abby locked into a classic point in some tall weeds. We walked up to about 15-20 yards when my buddy said, "Wait a minute. She doesn't get to do this very often in the kind of cover we have. Let's just let her point that bird for a while." Well, we stood there for at least 10 minutes before my buddy told me to get ready, walked in, and flushed the rooster. I shot it, Abby retrieved, and everybody was happy!

[Thornapple]

Buckeyebowman,
I agree, watching yours or a friend's dog on point is one of those specail moments we all want to savore, no matter how old we are or how many times it has happened.
As all can tell circling a bird is a special and unusual talent dog's pick up. Non of mine have ever develped the talent, but it sure is fun to watch when it occurs. I just wish one of the well known dog trainers would figure out a way to train for it. I was wrong above by the way, I have seen a Brittany owned and trained by a fellow in Massachusets do this with grouse. The darned thing kept pinning birds and sometimes birds we did not know were there. I believe this dog too learned this on its own if I am not mistaken.
Thornapple

[buckshot1]

If you have a dog that can handle/run blinds and you see the dog working a runner, I suppose you could send the dog on a blind around the runner, then call the dog back into the birds. I've never done this with my lab, but I do occasionally use hand signals to send her into cover that I want her to work. I still think it's probably a bad idea to interfere with a dog that's working birds, particularly a pointer. Probably best to let the dog figure out how to work birds on its own.

I've seen my lab run out into a harvested field along a fence row, then circle back into the fence row cover and flush a bird towards me a couple times. I haven't seen her do this enough to say for sure that it was intentional.

[buckeyebowman]

Buckeyebowman,
I agree, watching yours or a friend's dog on point is one of those specail moments we all want to savore, no matter how old we are or how many times it has happened.
As all can tell circling a bird is a special and unusual talent dog's pick up. Non of mine have ever develped the talent, but it sure is fun to watch when it occurs. I just wish one of the well known dog trainers would figure out a way to train for it. I was wrong above by the way, I have seen a Brittany owned and trained by a fellow in Massachusets do this with grouse. The darned thing kept pinning birds and sometimes birds we did not know were there. I believe this dog too learned this on its own if I am not mistaken.
Thornapple

Oh, you have that exactly right! Good dog work is a special thing, and a joy to watch. My friend really doesn't care whether he shoots or not. If I, or anyone else hunting with us that day, gets all the shooting he just stands there with a great big smile on his face because his dog is doing so well.

Abigail is kind of a hard dog to figure out. When we're in the house, and, because she is my buddy's top hunter she gets to stay in the house, she is just fidgety! I could wear her like a coat. She seeks, wants, indeed demands attention! It's as though she feels insecure, like she's unsure of her place in the pack. Sometimes her behavior indoors is troubling, as if it's cramping her style. Then, when we take her to the field, it's the other side of the coin. She is all business, and nothing but business! Even when she does some amazing thing that we poor humans can't really comprehend, and we try to praise her up, all we can get in are couple of pets and she's off! I've never seen a dog with her amount of drive in the field before. And distractions? There are none! Not other hunters, other dogs, other species (well, other than raccoon), she is all about the birds.

[Mr. Crappie]

I think you needto put birds is launchers. You need to be careful and launch the bird before the dog gets close. I don't want a dog to circle I want him to point !!

[bonasa]

I don't want a dog to circle I want him to point !!

Well said. Only thing that gets my goat more than a bumped bird is if I walk up one on my own! A dog that circles a bird and pins it between handler and dog sounds a lot like a dog that is unsure of itself and lacks confidence. Being that the dog is looking to you for direction and is avoiding pointing the bird until it can see you in it's field of view, either a dog that is blinking, sight pointing or both. Seems the amount of birds the dog would bump and you not shoot would make the dog by default a strong first scent pointer.

[Ruffshooter]

When a dog is circling a bird (at least mine,) the times I have seen it, the dog had a bird that was sneaking out of town. The dog could smell the scent getting weaker or could see the bird moving away, (I have witnessed both). Ruffs do this all the time. Especially if they are behind a blow down or in a tight patch. Ruffs are always positioning them selves for the perfect escape route weather it be flying or walking away. I do not recall ever seeing one run other than if it was crossing a road. It all depends on circumstanes.

[birddogger]

I don't want a dog to circle I want him to point !!

Well said. Only thing that gets my goat more than a bumped bird is if I walk up one on my own! A dog that circles a bird and pins it between handler and dog sounds a lot like a dog that is unsure of itself and lacks confidence. Being that the dog is looking to you for direction and is avoiding pointing the bird until it can see you in it's field of view, either a dog that is blinking, sight pointing or both. Seems the amount of birds the dog would bump and you not shoot would make the dog by default a strong first scent pointer.

I disagree with this and I think there may be a misunderstanding of what we are talking about. A dog that knows how to handle running birds is a beautiful thing. However, I am talking hunting dogs. I can see where field trialers may have a different opinion.

Charlie

[sckwest1]

It's a fine art that usually one only finds on a dog that has been exposed to a lot of wild pheasants. This is a veteran move and shows great brains. I train my dogs to be staunch and don't have any that will do this. When I was a boy my brother had an english setter that was a master of this. This same dog late in life was a very staunch dog on woodcock and grouse when my brother moved to Michigan. It can get pretty annoying to come up and kick around when that bird is long gone, release the dog and repeat sequence numerous times. SCK