Circling the bird, do you know how to train for it?

[QuailHollow]

I never realized ..... A dog I'm developing does this nearly every time he encounters a bird. My husband hates it and says he is running in... which in fact he is *not* doing. He is doing a crouching/creeping circle out around and gets in front of me - and never busts the bird. Bump it, maybe.. but he is not diving in to grab it. I trust him completely on birds. He is not a bird buster.. I was told to steady him with pigeons in a launcher to stop him from doing it. Interesting.

[gonehuntin']

I don't think it can be trained. I believe there are some dogs that have enough experience with certain types of birds and are wise enough to figure it out. I am pretty sure that a whole lot of people on here would find it an undesirable behavior, would not consider the dog "broke" and would break the dog to not move, especially field trialers [for good reason]. As for myself I think it is great for a hunting dog and a beautiful thing to watch. My dogs don't necessarily do this but they do relocate on their own when birds are moving or running and is something I allow and admire, where a lot of people would look down on this. As I said though, I believe it is something a dog learns on his/her own from experience and is not something that can be taught/trained. JMO.

Charlie

I'm with Charlie 110% on this one. It's rare to have a dog that does it, impossible to train for, and a thing of beauty to behold. A dog to be treasured.

I believe more dog's would learn this but owners don't trust their dog and stop them from doing it. They think A dog should track a bird and that is wrong.

[SetterNut]

I don't think it can be trained. I believe there are some dogs that have enough experience with certain types of birds and are wise enough to figure it out. I am pretty sure that a whole lot of people on here would find it an undesirable behavior, would not consider the dog "broke" and would break the dog to not move, especially field trialers [for good reason]. As for myself I think it is great for a hunting dog and a beautiful thing to watch. My dogs don't necessarily do this but they do relocate on their own when birds are moving or running and is something I allow and admire, where a lot of people would look down on this. As I said though, I believe it is something a dog learns on his/her own from experience and is not something that can be taught/trained. JMO.

Charlie

I'm with Charlie 110% on this one. It's rare to have a dog that does it, impossible to train for, and a thing of beauty to behold. A dog to be treasured.

I believe more dog's would learn this but owners don't trust their dog and stop them from doing it. They think A dog should track a bird and that is wrong.

I agree that it is better if the pointing dog does not track the bird, but swing out down wind. You get a lot more runners pointed that way as compared to tracked, which leads to more bumps IMO.

[birddog1968]

I've got two that do this very well, I think maybe the little female learned it by watching my male dog who's a master at it.

I kinda call it wrangling birds, he will do about what ever it takes to get them to the gun, its a sight and sometimes I have to remind myself to work with him as I watch (in awe) him do it. It's hard to explain to someone who's not seen it.....

Mine are as honest as they come on pinned birds (you could have lunch while they are on point), its not jumping around the other side to get the bird between the handler and the dog. It's wrangling the bird. It's done on the odd bird that makes a move to run and escape......and sometimes the wrangling move can be in a circle of 100 yards or more.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I had one like that a long time ago. I know what you're talking about. Sure miss him. Haven't had one since that could do it.
Doug

[Neil]

The value of circling birds has been debated for at least 100 years, the great Count Noble was faulted for it. Reportedly costing him some championships, back when there were few. The judges thought it was blinking, showing a lack of confidence and certainty.

Steven Rafe has written about how to train for it, you might try to Google.

I know how to break them from it. Which ought to tell you where I stand on the debate.

P.S. I answered this pretty much the same way in March, I get points for consistency, but lose for not remembering.

[Neil]

A Google on Steve came up with a pamplet from Gun Dog Supply for $3.95 which may still be available, it is on running birds that I think contains circling.

Good luck,

Neil

[Trekmoor]

My Brittany did the circle thing on a cock pheasant during a trial. She had pointed it and held the point as I moved towards her along with two judges and two guns. The bird had ran by the time we got there so we began to do a "follow." My bitch did the follow for about 30-40 yards then suddenly left the scent and did a huge semi-circle out in front....maybe 100 yards ? I had seen her do this before so I knew what to expect . She hunted her way back in towards me and flushed the bird straight at us.

The judges weren't at all sure what to make of this or how to mark it. There was very little doubt that if she had not done that the bird would have escaped and there is written into the field trial rules a bit that says something like " the dogs prime function is to find, point and then present game for the gun." It could not be denied that she had done all that so she was kept in the trial.
The landowner had pointing dogs himself and he asked me if I'd taught her to do that. I replied that she had taught herself the "trick." He then laughed and said that if I'd claimed to have trained for it he'd have called me a bloody liar ! He was most appreciative of a dog that can do that and so am I.

Bill T.

[Neil]

My Brittany did the circle thing on a cock pheasant during a trial. She had pointed it and held the point as I moved towards her along with two judges and two guns. The bird had ran by the time we got there so we began to do a "follow." My bitch did the follow for about 30-40 yards then suddenly left the scent and did a huge semi-circle out in front....maybe 100 yards ? I had seen her do this before so I knew what to expect . She hunted her way back in towards me and flushed the bird straight at us.

Bill T.

I think the dog flushing the bird part might be why some are not in favor of circling. I know how I would have judged it. The fact the bird came to you does not change things, it could have chosen 3 other directions. Had she circled, then pointed and allowed you to flush, I would have deemed it acceptable.

Sounds like a really nice hunting dog, congratulations.

[birddog1968]

I don't like a dog jumping around the other side of a bird im flushing or about to flush....I think in their mind alot of times they are trying to set themselves in position to try and catch the bird on the flush.

A dog working a moving bird in a circular fashion is another story in my mind.....

[SetterNut]

Think some of us are talking about different things.
I like seeing my dog swing out and work back toward me. This happens after he was on point, and I relocate him if the bird ran.

I don't like to see a dog on point moving around when I am going in to flush.

[Donnytpburge]

I have two finished dogs that "switch" naturally.

It's really cool to watch them work a bird together,
They cue off each other and circle opposite of each other, I noticed
Yesterday that they look like they are making a perfect circle around 30 ft radius from the bird!

I agree that you can't manually train for this,
But I put a puppy down yesterday while guideing a hunt
And she picked up on the "switch" from the older dog!




Db

[Vman]

I hope I don`t hijack this thread but here goes.
I have heard of this circling birds but have never seen myself nor would I want too. But if a dog does it and puts birds in the bag I really have no problem and yes I think it is cool, but,,,,
I don`t understand how a dog working into the wind can go upwind and then come back downwind and point a bird that is downwind. Possible?yes but hardly something I would want. THere are going to be a lot of bumped birds.
I don`t understand how a dog that is working a crosswind can turn into the wind on scent and circle and point downwind again. Why?
The only way I see it possible is the handler is working the dog with the wind up his butt and the dog knows more about hunting than the handler, so he makes a cast and comes back using the wind too his advantage. This make sense but I try too avoid hunting with the wind on my back at all costs. But sometimes it does happen and that is when I would want my dog to quarter or cast and come back towards me quartering.
Not bashing those of you that like such, it is just that I truly do not understand. I am missing something I think. When hunting, before I ever let a dog out I check the wind and I use a cross wind as much as possible. Next would be into the wind but then when I come back I would have the wind on my back and up the dogs butt so I try not too. I would not even hunt the field if I had too have the wind on my back all the way. I would save it for another day when the wind is right, but that is me.
Can anyone explain this too me?

[gonehuntin']

The only way it works is when the dog works the bird crosswind.

[Neil]

Dogs point from scent, sound and sight. And in this case with an understanding of where the bird was and where it was going.

Neil

[Luminary Setters]

"...where it (the bird) is going".

Bingo Neil! Most prey animals are going to attempt their escape by running downwind to carry their scent with them. In order for the dog to relocate the bird, he must position himself downwind side of It. By trial and error the dog quickly associates that roading straight in on the scent results in failure, and by the same, he learns that by casting out and around to the downwind side of the bird yields success. Thus, it appears to be circling or a series of semi-circles.

Personally, I believe that all predators are genetically programmed for this pattern, and it is a skill that is honed , not trained. If the proper foundation work is in place, it's not difficult to facilitate a dog's development of this skill.

[gonehuntin']

[quote="Luminary ]

Personally, I believe that all predators are genetically programmed for this pattern, and it is a skill that is honed , not trained. If the proper foundation work is in place, it's not difficult to facilitate a dog's development of this skill.[/quote]

Since you've apparently done this numerous times, how did you do it?

[Vman]

Thanks for your explanations, certainly helps me understand better. But now my next question is,, do you really think birds{prey} use the wind like the predator? Or is it the predator who is using the wind to find prey causing the prey to just go the opposite direction? I have seen many pheasants go out the back door in a corn field and just had a running rooster take my dog down wind two days ago so I know it happens but I find it hard too believe that they actually use the wind like a predator. Maybe I am not giving them the credit they deserve?

[gonehuntin']

I don't think birds use the wind at all. They run the direction the people or dogs aren't. So, it you're working INTO the wind, the dog goes on point and the bird runs out, it's fairly likely that bird will go down wind. Dog doesn't stand much of a chance of winding that bird unless he runs one heck of a circle.

When you hunt a bird cross wind, if it runs from you, the dog has a good chance of re-scenting it. That's why I usually hunt a dog cross wind, but that's just my preference. I've always felt you get harder points and pin more birds. Again, that's just my own personal opinion, not going to debate it one way or another.

[Vman]

I don't think birds use the wind at all. They run the direction the people or dogs aren't. So, it you're working INTO the wind, the dog goes on point and the bird runs out, it's fairly likely that bird will go down wind. Dog doesn't stand much of a chance of winding that bird unless he runs one heck of a circle.

Agree. But when this does happen, I want the dog too track that bird. The dog has scent use it. There is definetly a learning curve for the dog too track downwind and not put the bird in the air. I trust my dogs and let them do the work. Once they have done this enough they will learn that when the track scent gets stronger that is close enough. But it takes a seasoned dog probably no different than the dog that circles.

I also hunt cross wind as my first and foremost choice for the same reasons you have mentioned.

[slistoe]

Tracking dogs push birds around. If I want animals to move I get on their tracks, if I want them to sit I circle around them. Birds are no different.

When I hunt I expect the dog to know and use the wind regardless of which direction I am going.

[Vman]

Tracking dogs push birds around. If I want animals to move I get on their tracks, if I want them to sit I circle around them. Birds are no different.

A dog that has manners and slows down and tracks will learn quickly not too put the bird in the air. I read my dogs and can tell when things are getting hot, and when this happens, like you I will circle around and put them in the pinch. Been working for me for over 30 yrs and have the pics too prove it. But a dog with manners on running game is essential, and that is taught by the birds and me not shooting anything that is not pointed.

When I hunt I expect the dog to know and use the wind regardless of which direction I am going.

Agree, but I will also use the wind to give my dogs every advantage not disadvantage. A good dog will figure it out, and I believe the circling dog is probably no different.

[slistoe]

Tracking dogs push birds around. If I want animals to move I get on their tracks, if I want them to sit I circle around them. Birds are no different.

A dog that has manners and slows down and tracks will learn quickly not too put the bird in the air. I read my dogs and can tell when things are getting hot, and when this happens, like you I will circle around and put them in the pinch.

You must have misunderstood me. I don't play blocker for my dog. I have owned dogs that got very good at the follow the bird around game till somewhere/somehow it gets pointed for a shot. The dogs got good at it. I have also owned dogs that didn't have the patience to fool around with pushing birds all over heck's half acre and they figured out how to get the birds pointed. I know which one I prefer to hunt over - by a zillion times. Unfortunately not all dogs are blessed with the intelligence to figure out how to get things done, even if they are blessed with an owner that recognizes the difference and will try to allow them to learn it.
Not that it matters much because when the limit on pheasants is 2/day what does it matter if it takes 45 min. to get a productive point?

[Neil]

Tracking dogs push birds around. If I want animals to move I get on their tracks, if I want them to sit I circle around them. Birds are no different.

A dog that has manners and slows down and tracks will learn quickly not too put the bird in the air. I read my dogs and can tell when things are getting hot, and when this happens, like you I will circle around and put them in the pinch.

You must have misunderstood me. I don't play blocker for my dog. I have owned dogs that got very good at the follow the bird around game till somewhere/somehow it gets pointed for a shot. The dogs got good at it. I have also owned dogs that didn't have the patience to fool around with pushing birds all over heck's half acre and they figured out how to get the birds pointed. I know which one I prefer to hunt over - by a zillion times. Unfortunately not all dogs are blessed with the intelligence to figure out how to get things done, even if they are blessed with an owner that recognizes the difference and will try to allow them to learn it.
Not that it matters much because when the limit on pheasants is 2/day what does it matter if it takes 45 min. to get a productive point?

YES

[Vman]

YOu are certainly entitled too your method of hunting just like me. Whatever works for you, and the same for me. I didn`t get your 2 bird limit and 45 min. to get a point comment. I don`t know where you live but around here that 2 bird limit is not that easy to get. Most are lucky too even see two birds in a day. So when the dog does find a bird I want and need a dog that will relocate and track that bird. In some of the heavy grasses that we hunt, the bird will get under the canopy and your dog will never find it {or mine} if they don`t track. Out West where the cover is sparse it is not as important. Just go find another bird. But here things are a little different and if you want birds in the bag{pheasants} your dog had better slow down when he makes game.
As far as me circling out too the front when the dog is on point, that is a no brainer. We are a team. If your dog is on point and you walk up for the flush from the rear you will push that bird out from the dog and he will just run away from your dog again, and again and again unless he runs out of real-estate. But if I swing out too the front and put that bird between us, just like the circling dog, most likely he will go up. And like the circling dog, a dog that can track and stalk that running bird and never loose him and then stick the bird is a beautiful thing to watch and that is what I enjoy, Beautiful bird work.

[slistoe]

There are folks that hunt dogless and find birds too - doesn't mean it is the only way. Tracking pheasants is not the only way, and IMO is not the most effective way to handle those birds. Having owned and hunted over various dogs that worked the birds in each of the different manners I feel I can have an educated opinion based on real life experience and not just some thought process of the way it ought to be. That doesn't mean that anyone, myself included, should not feel free to hunt over any and all types of dogs and enjoy the fruits of the dogs labor.

No dog gets a free pass on birds it finds - if it finds them it should get them pointed. Given the choice however, I will take the dog that makes the bird sit and gets it pointed hard in the spot it is than the one that pushes the bird all over the place for 45 min. before it finally gets the job done. To insinuate that we just run around taking the easy birds from the abundance around us is showing your naivette. If you want to make a reasoned deduction on why it works you can compare it to what you can see and observe when working with animals of all kinds - When I am pushing bush for deer and I find a trail I get on it - because that will for sure make the deer move. Very rarely will I ever see a deer I am hard on the trail of, but they WILL come out of the bush to the stands. If I am working on a stalk hunt and cut a trail I circle out and around then cut across the track again - always circling ahead hoping to catch sight of the deer as they wait for me to move on by - very rarely will they ever exit the cover when worked in this manner. With all animals it is the same whether you are working horses, cattle, sheep, dogs, rabbits etc.

Pheasants are runners - a self perpetuating myth?

[slistoe]

As far as me circling out too the front when the dog is on point, that is a no brainer.

That isn't what you said the first time.

[slistoe]

a dog that can track and stalk that running bird and never loose him and then stick the bird is a beautiful thing to watch and that is what I enjoy, Beautiful bird work.

One of the problems that comes from having experienced what I would consider superior dog work is that what I used to enjoy - the thrill and challenge of following up that bird to fruition - is marred by the thought "If PT were on that bird we would have shot it by now. Come on dog, "bleep" or get off the pot." Then I take a deep breath, berate myself briefly that PT is not the dog on the bird, it is Patch and we really better get on with the job of trying to bring the bird to bag. At the end of the day Patch will get a "good boy" and the same dog treat that PT gets.

It doesn't change the fact though that a protracted chase of a bird does not always have to be.

[Neil]

I, too, have been doing this for awhile, I was lucky, my first dog was a field trial dog that ran hatd, and pinned pheasants. Since I have hunted behind many point, relocate, creep, repoint, etc. It does work. But not nearly as well, for me, as the hard charger.

To each his own.

[Vman]

To each his own.

Agree.
I also believe that the cover we are in MOST of the time also dictates the type of dog or method of work.
JUst to clarify something that I may not have passed on, I only shoot birds that the dog is pointing. I use a beeper and if I have a running bird I will switch too point only and the beeper MUST go off or I will not shoot my Model 42 .410. Later on I will move up too the 20 ga.

Some of the cover I hunt, the grass is 5ft. high and blown over and a 60lb. male dog will need to bound over it as he cannot run through it, it is just too thick to run through. A small dog like a springer maybe would go right underneath it. When the birds get under that canopy and start running around, and I am talking a 300 acre field,that may have 3 birds in it, the dog that lifts his head and starts to circle or use the wind will come up empty handed, unless conditions are perfect. There just isn`t anything for the dog too use if it is dry and calm. THose birds are not defenseless and they know how too avoid predators.
Do whatever works for you and I will do what works for me. I would have no problem hunting with your style of dog and my door is always open if you ever want to show me how it is done.

[Ruffshooter]

Well: I have enjoyed watching my Black Bart dog and old Dexter dog do this. Since those two have passed, I do not have a grouse dog that does that. I got to actually see the work they did a few times and each of those times was successful. AT first when Dexter did it I thought he was creeping in on birds and so I would correct him, then one day I actually saw what he was doing. I really enjoyed watching the situation unfold. Dexter knew where the bird was and where I was, he knew to keep enough distance. It is not to often you see a dog thinking and bird trying to out smart him. Usually it is to tight of cover to really see it. I have been lucky. Once I realized what was happening I learned that the bell was telling the story. especially with Bart, he moved a little faster than Dexter on these games. Grouse will walk, stop behind cover, double back, run, flush short, or get out of town. A dog with experience learns what to do after the initial hard point when the bird moves out while you are making your way to them. Not many learn or are smart enough to get the bird between you and he limiting the escape.

[slistoe]

JUst to clarify something that I may not have passed on, I only shoot birds that the dog is pointing. I use a beeper and if I have a running bird I will switch too point only and the beeper MUST go off or I will not shoot my Model 42 .410. Later on I will move up too the 20 ga.

I tried cheating last year - got some of that stickum that the football players use. All that happened is the birds flew away with their feathers stripped out. After a few days of snagging them with my bare hands I will switch to the blow gun - I like to mix it up a little.
:roll: :roll:
Really, what bearing does this have on anything with getting birds pointed?

[Vman]

Really, what bearing does this have on anything with getting birds pointed?

I mentioned this show that am shooting pointed birds. If the dog was screwing up and flushing like a flushing dog I could hardly use a .410. But if you have a good dog that knows how to handle running game you can.

[slistoe]

Really, what bearing does this have on anything with getting birds pointed?

I mentioned this show that am shooting pointed birds. If the dog was screwing up and flushing like a flushing dog I could hardly use a .410. But if you have a good dog that knows how to handle running game you can.

Did anyone indicate that you might be shooting anything other than pointed birds? Seems like most everyone agreed that dogs working the way you have described can get birds pointed for the gun. How is that different than what anyone else's dog is doing? The whole discussion is about dogs getting pheasant pointed.
Pretty hard to grab them with your bare hands if the dog is flushing them wild.

[walkos5]

My Brittany is a pointer some days and a flusher on other days and it doesn't really bother me because we always get birds and have fun. I do think he has the natural instinct to circle birds and put them between us because he does bust lots of birds and 90% of them fly in my direction and some right at me. There are times when he is working cover that is so thick that I truly believe he knows I wont be coming in to flush his pointed bird and that is when he acts alone. Yeah that's really bad I know it but sometimes those purple stickers hurt. When he is working closer to me in cover that I can see him he almost always holds a good point. Today we were hunting a some waist high cover on a hillside, I saw him lock up and his tail started up and I knew he was on a bird, he then came off point and turned quickly and bounced up hill and to my right. It confused me until I realized he was attempting to put the bird in between us. The bird figured it out and as I took two steps towards my dog the bird flushed. We are learning together what works best for us. If there is one thing I would like to correct it is that for about the first hour of our hunts he covers ground too fast or is rushing the hunt and I want him to pace himself better?

[slistoe]

If there is one thing I would like to correct it is that for about the first hour of our hunts he covers ground too fast or is rushing the hunt and I want him to pace himself better?

Take him out for longer hunts, back to back. He should figure it out. Although if he is not slowing down to a stop during the course of the hunt, why are you worried?

[walkos5]

If there is one thing I would like to correct it is that for about the first hour of our hunts he covers ground too fast or is rushing the hunt and I want him to pace himself better?

Take him out for longer hunts, back to back. He should figure it out. Although if he is not slowing down to a stop during the course of the hunt, why are you worried?

Because when he takes his time he seems to find more birds. The other day he busted two hens, one flew almost right in my lap the other in the opposite direction. He followed the other hen a short distance and made his way back to me. I knew exactly where that hen was hiding and when he came near it he was hunting with his fast pace, He totally missed the hen tucked away in the tall thick grass even though he came within about 10ft of it. It makes me wonder how many other birds he misses when he wont pace himself. He never stops, even when I sit down on a log to take a brake he hunts around in a circle and checks in to see if I have started to move. After a few hours he starts to hang a little closer and hunt with a more manageable pace. He finds more of everything at this pace.

[gonehuntin']

Watch the wind. It makes no diffence how fast a dog hunts if he has a good nose. The faster, the better. If he came past a bird, only 10' away and downwind and didn't scent it, I would seriously question his nose. No nose, no dog.

[Neil]

We used to put truck snow chains on them for the first couple of hours.

[slistoe]

I have watched dogs literally step on a bird and have no idea it was there. The same dog would later find the same bird, in the same location, from 100 feet away - depending on which way he was to the wind.
Many people believe in "scent washing" making birds that have just flown and landed more difficult for the dog to scent as they are "washed" and are putting out less scent.
Every dogs misses birds regardless of what pace they work at. EVERY dog.

[walkos5]

Watch the wind. It makes no diffence how fast a dog hunts if he has a good nose. The faster, the better. If he came past a bird, only 10' away and downwind and didn't scent it, I would seriously question his nose. No nose, no dog.

Actually we were kind of down deep in a grown in drainage area, not much wind. I have seen him hunt wide and use the wind and even change direction to use the wind to his advantage. I doubt he has any problem smelling game because I've seen him almost flip over when he picks up a strong sent when cruising through some hot spots.

[walkos5]

I have watched dogs literally step on a bird and have no idea it was there. The same dog would later find the same bird, in the same location, from 100 feet away - depending on which way he was to the wind.
Many people believe in "scent washing" making birds that have just flown and landed more difficult for the dog to scent as they are "washed" and are putting out less scent.
Every dogs misses birds regardless of what pace they work at. EVERY dog.

Do hens give out less sent then cock birds?

[slistoe]

I have watched dogs literally step on a bird and have no idea it was there. The same dog would later find the same bird, in the same location, from 100 feet away - depending on which way he was to the wind.
Many people believe in "scent washing" making birds that have just flown and landed more difficult for the dog to scent as they are "washed" and are putting out less scent.
Every dogs misses birds regardless of what pace they work at. EVERY dog.

Do hens give out less sent then cock birds?

Since I and every other human really can't smell them in the first place, I have no idea. But there certainly is some belief that such is the case based on observations of the interactions of dogs with hen vs. cock birds.

[TonyS]

Simple answer is : NO.

If the dog is on enough birds or really smart they figure it out for themselves. I have a 14 month old llewellin that I took to a planted public area on thanksgiving. We were late and the stupid birds were shot. All that was left was the smart ones.

My pup smelled the birds and pointed. When they ran, to begin with he chased. Then I saw him stop and pause. He shook his head and took off around the brush the birds were hiding in.

There is no bigger thrill than to see your sandwich moocher do this. Worth the price of admission.

[ChetB]

I don't think it can be trained. I believe there are some dogs that have enough experience with certain types of birds and are wise enough to figure it out. I am pretty sure that a whole lot of people on here would find it an undesirable behavior, would not consider the dog "broke" and would break the dog to not move, especially field trialers [for good reason]. As for myself I think it is great for a hunting dog and a beautiful thing to watch. My dogs don't necessarily do this but they do relocate on their own when birds are moving or running and is something I allow and admire, where a lot of people would look down on this. As I said though, I believe it is something a dog learns on his/her own from experience and is not something that can be taught/trained. JMO.

Charlie

I'm with Charlie 110% on this one. It's rare to have a dog that does it, impossible to train for, and a thing of beauty to behold. A dog to be treasured.

I believe more dog's would learn this but owners don't trust their dog and stop them from doing it. They think A dog should track a bird and that is wrong.

I'm in agreement with both of you on this one. My GSP has done it on Grouse and wild Pheasant. I didn't train her to do it, I don't believe it can be trained, but I'm glad she does it. When we're hunting, I trust my dog ...


Chet

[Neil]

If one dog can do it, others can be trained to do it.

[ChetB]

If one dog can do it, others can be trained to do it.

How would you go about training for it? I think Miranda learned it on her own, because I sure didn't have anything to do with it. Did she figure it out because it worked for her once or twice and we bagged the bird?

[gonehuntin']

The only way I think it could possibly be done, is whenever the dog is on point and the bird runs out, never let the dog relocate on it's own by tracking the bird. I'd try pulling the dog from point, circling the suspected escape route down wind, then releasing the dog. If it went back on the track, I'd do the same thing again.

Except I know me and I'd never do it. Sounds like a heck of a lot of work, frustration, and disappointment. Not worth more gray hair and there are many, many, dog's that would never learn that. I think the problem is, you're trying to replace a natural tendency (tracking) with a learned response. Tough thing to do.

[Neil]

Please go back and read the responses, there are sveral answer to how to train for it.

I like Rafe's approach:

As I recall, build a woven wire tunnel about 30' long, stack brush on top and sides, place a pheasant in the downwind end. When the dog points the pheasant will run to the other end (if not, encourge it to), when you

relocate the dog he will loop around as the brush should be too thick to go through. Reward the dog.

I agree it is too much work for a behavior i don't approve.

[gonehuntin']

Actually Neil I had read that response, I just think there are to many holes in the method.