Pointers/Flushers

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jhorak
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Pointers/Flushers

Post by jhorak » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:59 am

Does anyone out there have any experience hunting behind a flusher and a pointer simultaneously? I recently made acquaintances with a guy who runs a Wirehaired Vizsla, and we might go out bird hunting together a few times this fall. I have two English Cockers (one is just a pup), and I'm wondering how this dynamic works in the field. Is it reasonable to run them (ECS and WVP) together? My cocker is not going to honor a point, but she will stay in gun range even if the pointer is ranging farther out. Thanks.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BrittGSP818 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:45 am

It really depends on the dogs, if the pointer is a longer ranging dog and your cocker works closer, then that is a good combo. If they both work close, then you would have to have really good control over your dog because if they both get birdy in the same area and the Vizlsa goes on point you are going to have to call your dog back or have him wait alittle. This could be a dangerous situation for the pointing breed because if the flusher always runs in a flush his points, he might give up pointing and begin flushing himself. So in short, if you have a dog that will listen to you then you shouldnt have any problems. I would maybe do some planted bird runs with the dogs to see how they react to the situation.


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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:08 am

Personally, I wouldn't allow a flusher with my setters.
The hunter flushed bird is a payoff for my setters that flusher poaching would not serve and the practice could kill the solidity of the point....bad juju, in other words.
I guess I care too much about my dogs....I can visualize my setter's confused eyes as the flusher moved in.
Some will never mind tho and just want to kill birds.
Each to their own.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:31 am

I know a good handful of pro guides who keep their retriever flushers along side of them while the pointers hunt for the birds then they send their labs or flusher to flush and retrieve downed birds.

I use my silky to go in and flush birds in front of my dogs ...I want my dogs to be prepared for those dogs that do not have manners and do not honor points in the field or in a trial...

not all dogs can handle it So one needs to evaluate their dogs and i would not run young pointers with flushers until they have had a good few seasons of hunting and training.
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jhorak
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by jhorak » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:54 am

Sounds like I'm going to have to tell this guy to get a flusher if he wants to hunt with me:) I don't think I want to make my dog heel for an entire hunt, but I suppose we could kennel one dog and hunt the other and just rotate. Or, maybe we can do miniature drives working towards eachother, that way the dogs wouldn't actually be hunting together (until we met). I can call my dog off of birds, but I don't think she'd be too happy with me if we spent a day hunting and I called her off every time she started getting close to a bird!

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:39 pm

That would probably keep the friendship going by taking turns hunting the dogs separately :wink:
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by jhorak » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:58 pm

kninebirddog wrote:That would probably keep the friendship going by taking turns hunting the dogs separately :wink:
He'll probably switch over to cockers soon enough anyway :)

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:27 am

I occasionally run my lab with a guy who has a Britt, I usually keep my lab at a loose heel (10-15yds) and let her work the immediate tree rows and let my buddies Britt work the field edges and get out further ahead of us. I keep my lab under complete control at all times and if the Britt starts to get birdy I can either call my lab to heel or just through experience my lab has learned to sit on the Whoa command. we have very little trouble with my lab busting the Britts birds and between the two of them we dont loose any crippled birds. the thing that we run into is you need to have all dogs involved steady to wing and shot so that the dog that does the work gets its retrieve. I have found that By letting my Lab work the heavy cover in the tree rows that she will put up some singles that the Britt will sometimes run past in search of coveyd birds. sometimes youll run into a pointing breed guy who will let his ego get in the way and wont put his dog on the ground with a flusher, but it seems to work real well on alot of plantations through the south :D .........
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:20 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:.... sometimes youll run into a pointing breed guy who will let his ego get in the way and wont put his dog on the ground with a flusher, but it seems to work real well on alot of plantations through the south :D .........
JIm

Not really ego...all about the Dog and not about the dog work, for me.
And, it likely works best for pheasants/quail rather than grouse/woodcock. :idea:

But, had I a southern quail plantation with ceegar-chomping sports to give "the" experience to then I would likely go for hard-muscled pointers, labs at the ready, creaking buggies and an old guy named Roscoe on a mule with an old lady named Millie back in the kitchen.
That experience holds zero fascination tho...as does other events afield, for me.
The P/F duo will let you kill stuff tho.
All depends on perspective and what one gets out of a Day.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:52 am

Millie and Roscoe? haha thats great. I agree with what you say and you do paint a fairly accurate picture, my point from experience is that many times flushing dog and pointing dog owners have a very different agenda in mind and while most flushing dog owners are willing to run their dogs along side a pointing breed it has been my experience that it is the pointing breed owners are the ones most likely to put the halt on mixing the two styles in the field. mostly for the reasons that you previously stated. as far as the original post it is usually easier to platoon the dogs and run the two styles of dog seperate of one another untill you have determined whether or not they will work well together. Admittedly the use of the term "ego" may have taken it too far....
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by reba » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:32 pm

I run one of each all the time.

You just need to control a hard charging flusher.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by SpringerDude » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:53 pm

You can hunt them together without keeping the flusher at heel the majority of the hunt. I have hunted my springers with pointing dogs before. When the other dogs go on point, just heel your flusher at that point. Have them remained Hupped when you go in for the flush. If your dog will not remain steady to flush, then leash your dog and let your buddy flush the birds. Do what you need to do in order to keep the dogs from making total chaos of the situation.

I had a springer at heel when a setter was on point. as we walked in for the flush, the springer was marking down each bird of the pair I dropped and was waiting on the command to pick them up as I was reloading for a late flusher. Put a smile on my face knowing what the dogs just handled and the shooting opportunity that I received. Really kinda cool to watch.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by 44magnum » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:51 pm

So what I'm gathering from these posts is that it's possible to hunt pointers and flushers together but difficult to do and potentially hazardous to the dogs. I guess it's better to stick with one style or the other.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:34 am

we ahve a guy at our club who has taught his goldens to back a pointing dog then we had him give his dog a release command to then go in and flush the birds in front of the pointers...Again this is not something I would do with a young dog But it sure is great training for a trial dog to handle a disruptive bracemate :wink:
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BigShooter » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:51 am

I've pheasant hunted a number of times with both afield but only with flushers that are completely controllable and can be reeled in. While the dogs may be on the same turf, we keep the dogs separate and they do not work together. It has worked okay but is not my favorite hunting activity.
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:30 pm

The breeder I got my Boykin from also breeds GSP's. I saw a video of him and his GSP and Boykin working together. Boykin stayed at a lose heal till the GSP found point. Then Boykin was sent to flush and retrive. GSP kept point untill gun shot, then was off looking for a nother point while the Boykin was busy retriving bird to hunter. Got 3 birds on the video working that way. The breeder did say it has tooken years of training to get them to work so well together.

I would imagine if a fellow had the time for the training, he could get a pair of dog to hunt just about any style he wanted.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BigShooter » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:01 pm

The OP asked about hunting two different types of dogs with two different owners. Like WJr said with enough time, patience and expertise you could probably train a lot of dog pairs to work together. However, putting a flusher & a pointing dog & two different owners in the same field may not work out too well. You'd need at least: a completely broke pointing dog, a completely controllable flusher and two safety minded hunters that were committed to making the situation work. You may screw up your pointing dog if the flusher is allowed to steal a pointed bird.

Otherwise, keep the dogs separated in the field.

IMO - It's better to just say no.
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by Crashola » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:48 pm

My friends and I ran pointers and flushers together all the time when I lived in S.D. I don't recall ever having any problems -- other than one GSP that liked to steal dead birds from other dogs. I did run into a well-educated lab here in Idaho last year that put it all together and figured out that a dog on point meant he would get a flush. He'd see a point from 100+ yards away and run off to flush the bird. But then, both dogs were owned by the same guy who spent much of the day yelling at his point-poaching lab.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by jarbo03 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:10 pm

Hunted my lab and my britt together for 11 years, although a little nerve racking for the first year or two, didnt take them long to learn to hunt with each other well. Being able to handle both of them easily they always hunted away from one another except for small cover of course. The lab always had an eye on the britt waiting for a point, when he saw it he was off, but a simple vibrate on his collar would ease him up( I don't like to talk at all while chasin pheasant, vibrating collars are great for communication with hand signals). If the dogs are disciplined you can easily hunt the two of them together.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BlueRiverSpringer » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:25 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Personally, I wouldn't allow a flusher with my setters.
The hunter flushed bird is a payoff for my setters that flusher poaching would not serve and the practice could kill the solidity of the point....bad juju, in other words.
I guess I care too much about my dogs....I can visualize my setter's confused eyes as the flusher moved in.
Some will never mind tho and just want to kill birds.
Each to their own.
One Might say that would be if your pointer found a bird first.LOL, Likely the pointer with me would just not get to point. :lol:
When you think you are smarter then your bird dog, ask yourself, "Who cleans up who's poo"?
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BigShooter » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:00 pm

BlueRiverSpringer wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:Personally, I wouldn't allow a flusher with my setters.
The hunter flushed bird is a payoff for my setters that flusher poaching would not serve and the practice could kill the solidity of the point....bad juju, in other words.
I guess I care too much about my dogs....I can visualize my setter's confused eyes as the flusher moved in.
Some will never mind tho and just want to kill birds.
Each to their own.
One Might say that would be if your pointer found a bird first.LOL, Likely the pointer with me would just not get to point. :lol:
One might say it would be questionable whether the springer wouldn't just be doing nothing but replowing old ground that had already been covered. :P
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BlueRiverSpringer » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:19 pm

BigShooter wrote:
BlueRiverSpringer wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:Personally, I wouldn't allow a flusher with my setters.
The hunter flushed bird is a payoff for my setters that flusher poaching would not serve and the practice could kill the solidity of the point....bad juju, in other words.
I guess I care too much about my dogs....I can visualize my setter's confused eyes as the flusher moved in.
Some will never mind tho and just want to kill birds.
Each to their own.
One Might say that would be if your pointer found a bird first.LOL, Likely the pointer with me would just not get to point. :lol:
One might say it would be questionable whether the springer wouldn't just be doing nothing but replowing old ground that had already been covered. :P
That would take a nose and covering it affectively.LOL, I wonder why the timed chucker challenge here kept being won by Springers. They finally decided to give pointers there own division so they could win. :lol:
When you think you are smarter then your bird dog, ask yourself, "Who cleans up who's poo"?
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BlueRiverSpringer » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:28 pm

Now not joking, You can do it but if we weigh fairness for the dog you would have to look at it as you may get shown up and not have to care. If your dog came on point, I could hup my dog before or after a flush since their steady to the whistle, flush wing, shot and fall. I could send my dog in to do what the dogs job is, (put birds in the air instead of me having to bust brush :lol: ) then the dog would stay put and let your dog attempt the retrieve. If the pointer fumbles the retrieve I could always release the dog to get the job done and move on. Now if your pointer was running all over hill and dale not covering ground and I have a dog rolling nice using the wind blowing out birds and flush a bird that is shot, can you keep that pointer steady to shot and fall so I cn have a retrieve? Doing this I think it would make for an interesting day.
When you think you are smarter then your bird dog, ask yourself, "Who cleans up who's poo"?
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by BigShooter » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:37 pm

BigShooter wrote:The OP asked about hunting two different types of dogs with two different owners. Like WJr said with enough time, patience and expertise you could probably train a lot of dog pairs to work together. However, putting a flusher & a pointing dog & two different owners in the same field may not work out too well. You'd need at least: a completely broke pointing dog, a completely controllable flusher and two safety minded hunters that were committed to making the situation work. You may screw up your pointing dog if the flusher is allowed to steal a pointed bird.

Otherwise, keep the dogs separated in the field.

IMO - It's better to just say no.
I hunted for years with a springer. My brother-in-law & two nephews have five springers between them. I still wouldn't advise the OP to take two different types of dogs with questionable manners, two hunters that haven't hunted together & throw 'em out in the field together. Like many of us have said already two completely broke, controllable dogs of different types should be able to be handled together in the same field but it's not going to be a naturally smooth event the first time out.
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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by jhorak » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:59 pm

I just noticed this thread has been revived. I never went hunting with the guy I referred to in the original post. However, since moving to TX in September, I have ran my Cockers with a variety of pointers; French Brit, American Brit, EPs, Draathars, and Viszlas. I didn't have any problems; on the rare occasion that one of those dogs actually found a bird willing to hold long enough for us to get a shot, I'd just hup my dog(s) and wait for the flush. I never felt disadvantaged having flusher instead of one of the pointing dogs...although they obviously covered more ground, I don't believe any of them were more successful at finding birds. The biggest frustration was having retrieves stolen from my dogs by the other dogs...no manners! It certainly wasn't a thing of beauty, but we made it work, and I don't believe that my dog's actions were at all detrimental to the pointers training.

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Re: Pointers/Flushers

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:29 am

JHorak,
For many many years my brother had Boykins and I had pointing dogs, we hunted them together all the time, if you have well trained dogs its a great way to hunt.
My GSP & SM worked well with his Boykins and at times the dog work was just incredible, course the retrieving competitition was on the other side of insane.
RGD/Dave

Revived again

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