Whoa! on wild birds

[basspow]

Just returned from two weekends in s/w Kansas.hunting alone with my young GWP(2 1/2) he must have put up 30 or 40 roosters which were out of gun range. we did manage a half dozen on close flushes or points. My question is, is it a good idea to whoa the dog when he starts getting birdy? depending on the cover. on row crops he will follow the bird until out of range.
We hunted mostly overgrown abandon farm houses and weed row rows. I think that whoaing him when he gets birdy might prevent the bird from flushing and give him a chance to go on point

[alex0742]

So lets just get this straight so we understand. Your hunting your dog on wild birds. He goes on point. Then he breaks point and flushes them before you get there?
Have you trained the dog to know what "Whoa" means? Are you telling the dog "whoa" and he is ignoring you?

[basspow]

What I am saying, be gets birdy before he points, which causes the bird to flush.

[alex0742]

Please elaborate. He gets birdy before he points and then establishes a point and the bird gets up on its own or your dog gets birdy then knocks the bird before pointing it. This is critical and you must provide info for help. How bout my other questions? Your not giving enough info to make an accurate response. Just trying to help.

[basspow]

He knows whoa, While acting birdy he is pushing the bird. when the bird stops he locks up. I don't say anything until the bird gets up and I yell whoop. He is steady to the flush. In a training situation I have whoaed him 20" from a pigeon and when he picks up the scent he locks up.Wild birds are a whole lot different, I think he will learn to point earlier as he matures.

[Beecher]

I use "whoa" as a confirmation he is doing the right thing after he locks point! It says "good job" and "u better not move" at the same time!

[bwjohn]

I think basically, he has not learned to give wild birds enough room yet. You can not pressure wild birds the way you can birds that you trained with. It took my dog a little while to figure out these grouse in the NE.

Keep getting him on wild birds and he will figure it out. They will learn to establish point sooner.


As for "Whoa", I try not to use it. I let my dog establish point on his own, I do not force the issue. I will use "whoa" to calm his nerves when I am walking past him or when I am out in front of him and he may start to break. But I do NOT use it to establish the point.

I think you will be fine, just keep working your dog and it will figure it out.

good luck on the season,
brandon

[Boxa]

I'd also avoid shooting birds he 'bumps". What the dog really wants is to catch the birds when he bumps them, so think of the bird as a reward. If he points 'em shoot 'em, if he doesn't... don't. By shooting birds he bumps you have just lowered the standard of acceptable bird work and that's all you should expect to get out of him.

[Boxa]

And... you can whoa him all day long - It does NOT mean he knows how to handle wild game birds. (Especially wild roosters, which will run and flush wild occaisionally on even the most experienced dogs.)

[basspow]

I didn't shoot at any of the birds that he bumped because they were way out of range. He likes to range way out. we are working on staying in a little closer using a nick, which seems to be effective. thanks for the advice all

[alex0742]

Right on Boxa. More wild birds and dont give a cammand you cant enforce including "whoa". "Whoa" has nothing to do with birds. It is a cammand like any other. Sounds like your pup has just had too many pen raised birds and has learned he can get close. I have similiar problem with one of my dogs and I cant seem to find a wild quail in all of texas. Just keep putting her on wild birds and dont shoot unless you get a point. Good luck.

[Shadow]

I think basically, he has not learned to give wild birds enough room yet. You can not pressure wild birds the way you can birds that you trained with. It took my dog a little while to figure out these grouse in the NE.

Keep getting him on wild birds and he will figure it out. They will learn to establish point sooner.


As for "Whoa", I try not to use it. I let my dog establish point on his own, I do not force the issue. I will use "whoa" to calm his nerves when I am walking past him or when I am out in front of him and he may start to break. But I do NOT use it to establish the point.

I think you will be fine, just keep working your dog and it will figure it out.

good luck on the season,
brandon

there you have it- read your dog and don't be so anxiouse to kill- help your dog- you both need to learn how to handle pheasants

I'll use whoa- but only if and when I see one of mine is a bit confused with a close bird

[birddogger]

You have gotten good advise, but to answer your specific question, do not whoa him when he becomes birdy. That is not what will make him a birddog. The wild birds will. You may just have to forget about putting birds in the bag for a while. I believe whoaing him when he becomes birdy would do more harm than good.

Charlie

[live4point]

From what you described as the pup getting birdy,it sounds like he is catching scent and then following it up and getting too close before deciding to point.I would work the dog on pen raised birds where you know where the bird is and can control the situation.Work your dog back and forth across the wind from a fair distance getting closer each pass.When you see the dog catch a whiff and it turns his head towards the bird,stop him THERE.Make him stand there and style him up.Why let a dog get any closer?You have just proven to yourself that the dog smelled the bird because you know exactly where it's at.It may not look pretty at first but it will get him used to pointing from farther away.If a dog waits to point when he gets his nose practically up a birds butt,you wont get get to kill many birds as wild birds wont stand for that.As with all dog training,repeat and then repeat again.Good luck to you!

[Boxa]

From what you described as the pup getting birdy,it sounds like he is catching scent and then following it up and getting too close before deciding to point.I would work the dog on pen raised birds where you know where the bird is and can control the situation.Work your dog back and forth across the wind from a fair distance getting closer each pass.When you see the dog catch a whiff and it turns his head towards the bird,stop him THERE.Make him stand there and style him up.Why let a dog get any closer?You have just proven to yourself that the dog smelled the bird because you know exactly where it's at.It may not look pretty at first but it will get him used to pointing from farther away.If a dog waits to point when he gets his nose practically up a birds butt,you wont get get to kill many birds as wild birds wont stand for that.As with all dog training,repeat and then repeat again.Good luck to you!

This seems like a good idea in theory... and is something that can be replicated in training. But I have a couple questions???

How do you know that the dog is smelling the bird vs. just turning his nose into the wind? How do you know that the distance from which he 'smelled' the planted bird is sufficient to keep a wild bird from flushing? What happens when you don't know where the bird is and can't control the situation?

I'm a big fan of starting with a pup that has sufficient natural abilities to learn from mistakes (ie; wild flushes) and figure out how to point and hold game for the gun. Only wild birds in wild conditions can teach this level of caution around game. If he point's 'em, shoot 'em, if he doesn't don't.

[alex0742]

I agree. The only other option I would consider would be using traps to release birds sooner but there is nothing like wild birds.

[tdhusker]

Bass, I know what you're saying and I believe in letting the young dog pursue the running bird if the situation allows it. Hunting by yourself or in a small party? Then let he pursue the bird. If you're in a group or with someone who will pitch a fit when the dog is out of gun range, then maybe whoa him. I hunt by myself or with another guy who has the same philosphy so we let the dogs pursue the running bird for the most part. As your dog matures, you'll find that he'll stiff-leg it or creep on the bird when it is moving. If the bird is in a flat-out sprint though, your dog will want to keep up. That is only natural. Pointing dogs weren't made to ignore scent and stay close to their master. Accept his natural instincts, encourage him to stick with hot bird scent and you'll be rewarded with a fine hunting dog when he is mature. Buck him or reprimand him constantly when he is on scent and you'll end up with a confused dog that simply does not know how to handle running birds.

There's always exceptions, always need to use common sense. Too many birds running ahead, tons of scent in a very long row crop field, obviously you don't want him a half mile ahead busting 30 birds.

[live4point]

From what you described as the pup getting birdy,it sounds like he is catching scent and then following it up and getting too close before deciding to point.I would work the dog on pen raised birds where you know where the bird is and can control the situation.Work your dog back and forth across the wind from a fair distance getting closer each pass.When you see the dog catch a whiff and it turns his head towards the bird,stop him THERE.Make him stand there and style him up.Why let a dog get any closer?You have just proven to yourself that the dog smelled the bird because you know exactly where it's at.It may not look pretty at first but it will get him used to pointing from farther away.If a dog waits to point when he gets his nose practically up a birds butt,you wont get get to kill many birds as wild birds wont stand for that.As with all dog training,repeat and then repeat again.Good luck to you!

This seems like a good idea in theory... and is something that can be replicated in training. But I have a couple questions???

How do you know that the dog is smelling the bird vs. just turning his nose into the wind? How do you know that the distance from which he 'smelled' the planted bird is sufficient to keep a wild bird from flushing? What happens when you don't know where the bird is and can't control the situation?
Boxa,I never had any problem being able to tell the dog was whiffing the bird.Try it and I think you will find the same.I have trouble with the old theory of letting the pup chase and then hoping he will become solid on his own,because a heck of a lot of them never will,they will keep chasin.If you look at it from the dogs point of view,you are not shooting birds over him because he bumps them,and the dog hasn't been trained well enough to hold them,so from the dogs point of view,his only fun and purpose is to put the birds up.I will make this statement,although it may not be popular,I still believe it's true.Some creeping,bird busting dogs will always be bird busters.You can train and train on pen raised birds,have them whoa broke to stop them on a dime,and evertime they get the chance they will bust the birds..
I'm a big fan of starting with a pup that has sufficient natural abilities to learn from mistakes (ie; wild flushes) and figure out how to point and hold game for the gun. Only wild birds in wild conditions can teach this level of caution around game. If he point's 'em, shoot 'em, if he doesn't don't.

[cody]

This seems like a good idea in theory... and is something that can be replicated in training. But I have a couple questions???

How do you know that the dog is smelling the bird vs. just turning his nose into the wind? How do you know that the distance from which he 'smelled' the planted bird is sufficient to keep a wild bird from flushing? What happens when you don't know where the bird is and can't control the situation?

I'm a big fan of starting with a pup that has sufficient natural abilities to learn from mistakes (ie; wild flushes) and figure out how to point and hold game for the gun. Only wild birds in wild conditions can teach this level of caution around game. If he point's 'em, shoot 'em, if he doesn't don't.

I completly agree with this, their the ones the nose let them figure out how to handle the bird.

It doesn't happen overnight

[alex0742]

From what you described as the pup getting birdy,it sounds like he is catching scent and then following it up and getting too close before deciding to point.I would work the dog on pen raised birds where you know where the bird is and can control the situation.Work your dog back and forth across the wind from a fair distance getting closer each pass.When you see the dog catch a whiff and it turns his head towards the bird,stop him THERE.Make him stand there and style him up.Why let a dog get any closer?You have just proven to yourself that the dog smelled the bird because you know exactly where it's at.It may not look pretty at first but it will get him used to pointing from farther away.If a dog waits to point when he gets his nose practically up a birds butt,you wont get get to kill many birds as wild birds wont stand for that.As with all dog training,repeat and then repeat again.Good luck to you!

There is a differance in getting birdy i.e. the dog getting some of the bird scent but not enough and the dog knowing it has a live bird in front of its nose. The bird has differant kinds of smell. It has a body odor, it has odor coming from its rectom and it has odor coming from the air it breaths. You cant possible know what is going thru his mind by whoaing him in front of a pen raised bird. You cant. You can speculate but you dont know. Wild birds my friend and let the dog figure it out.

[gspjake]

I have a 3 year old gsp, for the first 1.5 years we pretty much did the preserve thing, this season we got dead serious on wild birds, my dog does the same thing, scents the birds, and tries to creep in and get a peak. i have been out probabley 10 times this year between grouse and pheasant, i can honestly say that you can see some kind of improvement evertime out whether is is establishing point either, or figuring out that the bird is running on him, my point is he will improve with the experiance gained in the field. some days you will see it and some days you will think he has lost his mind. I also think you can simulate a wild bird experience (kinda) with bird launchers i put my dog under bird launchers for a week, this year and that went miles for him creeping in, he did get to the point of sticking them from 15 feet away, because he was so concered about the bird flushing on him. of course after about the 10th launch!! i'm no pro but thought i would share because im going thru the same thing, an it is getting exciting because i see the light flickering!!!

[Boxa]

I have a 3 year old gsp, for the first 1.5 years we pretty much did the preserve thing, this season we got dead serious on wild birds, my dog does the same thing, scents the birds, and tries to creep in and get a peak. i have been out probabley 10 times this year between grouse and pheasant, i can honestly say that you can see some kind of improvement evertime out whether is is establishing point either, or figuring out that the bird is running on him, my point is he will improve with the experiance gained in the field. some days you will see it and some days you will think he has lost his mind. I also think you can simulate a wild bird experience (kinda) with bird launchers i put my dog under bird launchers for a week, this year and that went miles for him creeping in, he did get to the point of sticking them from 15 feet away, because he was so concered about the bird flushing on him. of course after about the 10th launch!! i'm no pro but thought i would share because im going thru the same thing, an it is getting exciting because i see the light flickering!!!

This is what I'm talking about.... It will come with time.