Ammo

[Country Guy2]

I want to get away from lead shot for my bird hunting, can anyone recommend something that would give me the same performance that would be equal to what I have been using all these years. I use #6 shot for just about all my bird hunting, turkey included but I use 3" magnums for them. The reason for the change is from both an environmental outlook and I am tired of worrying about the possibility of consuming lead in my wild game meals.

[lugmastro]

Pretty broad question. All of the major ammunition manufacturers make non toxic ammo. What kind of performance and shot weight are you looking for, I shott #6's tells us nothing.

[Mountaineer]

I want to get away from lead shot for my bird hunting, can anyone recommend something that would give me the same performance that would be equal to what I have been using all these years.....

Nothing is equal as a replacement...some choices will be more than sufficient, if applied well....others carry burdens that will be acceptable, or not.

Hard to imagine the choices available in non-tox shot being unknown today.....just, hard to imagine.

[nikegundog]

I want to get away from lead shot for my bird hunting, can anyone recommend something that would give me the same performance that would be equal to what I have been using all these years. I use #6 shot for just about all my bird hunting, turkey included but I use 3" magnums for them. The reason for the change is from both an environmental outlook and I am tired of worrying about the possibility of consuming lead in my wild game meals.

There is basically no health risks for consuming lead pellets, other than chipping a tooth, which will be the same with non-tox.

[Country Guy2]

There is basically no health risks for consuming lead pellets, other than chipping a tooth, which will be the same with non-tox.

That's not what I have read unless I'm not understanding what I read. I also know that lead shot is illegal to use when hunting over wet lands in my home state of PA because it is toxic to ducks and other wildlife. As for what I'm looking for I don't have a good understanding of shotgun pattern performance but I do know what lead shot does with #6 or 7.5 shot on average at say 25 to 30 yds. I would like a #6 duck & pheasant load of something non lead that will give me the closest performance to lead shot.

[Mountaineer]

... I also know that lead shot is illegal to use when hunting over wet lands in my home state of PA because it is toxic to ducks and other wildlife....

PA, huh?

Non-tox has been mandated for waterfowl for a number of years....gosh, seems like it's been nearly 25 years since that was required nationwide....but my memory may be off a bit.
You are just now wondering about a replacement?
Anywho, the "other" wildlife or upland gamebird scenarios is, especially, where worries tend to be......interpreted willy-nilly and then applied in the same manner....re the potential for negative effects from ingesting lead shot.
I actually consider a pellet, misshapen and lonely, on a plate edge to be the indication of a day well done....a pellet or three missed by the molars akin to stepping past that unseen and abandoned water well on the Back 40.

However, aside from reality, NICE shot from RST could help you...might try three or four cases of 7 1/2s or 2s.
Hevi-shot is very well considered and steel is much improved over those early days long ago.
I liked Bismuth but not sure it is still around and then Tungsten...lot of choices if using such makes you feel...better.
I tried some #7 steel on ruffed grouse and woodcock, just to see.
Works fine when pointed and triggered correctly....as does most anything.
But, it is certainly not needed in any measure in that upland venue.

PS...ifin you do not like those RSTs with NICE shot, I'll take 'em off your hands for a nickel on the dollar.

[Ez4]

In CA almost all public areas are non-lead. This is due to the 6 California Condor living in Northwestern Arizona, but that's another rant.

I almost entirely shoot steel, depending on what the target is that day I sometimes go down a size or two relative to what I would use in lead. When I rarely find Bismuth or Tungsten it has been substantially more expensive, so I just stick with steel.

[deseeker]

Steel is the cheapest way to go. Steel is harder than lead so you usually get a tighter pattern(due to less deformed shot)with steel. Because of that most people will shot one size more open choke with steel shells(mod choke instead of full). Steel starts out faster than lead but slows down quicker than lead due to weight difference, but at 35 to 40 yards that won't make much difference in killing power.. On bigger birds (phez, ducks, etc)most people will go a couple sizes pellets bigger---if you shoot 6s in lead then 4s in steel will be close(about the same number of pellets in 6 lead and 4 steel in 1 1/4oz shot). Only thing I don't like about steel is I don't(IMO) think you get as good as penetration with steel as you dp with lead.

[Neil]

Bismuth or tungsten in 6s for all but turkey, then move up to Heavishot 4s.

Much more expensive, but it costs to be green. You will feel better with a lighter wallet.

Oh, many knowledgeable scientists question the ill effects of lead shot in all but the heaviest hunted areas. And there is no danger from eating freah killed game - None.

How do your friends feel about you killing poor defensive animals?

[mtlhdr]

In CA almost all public areas are non-lead.

This is NOT true. Well, at least not until 2019 when the state-wide lead hunting ammo ban goes into effect. The current state lead ban covers the condor area for big game and non-game (eg varmints) as well as federal refuges; it is permissible to use lead on the remainder of the public land.

To the OP, I've used heavy shot with success, but it's ridiculously expensive. RIO has a relatively new bismuth load that probably would be worth checking out. I use lead unless it's prohibited by law.

[Neil]

You guys are missing the point, the only reason to switch from lead other than where required by law, is to feel good about saving the planet. Seems to me the more money the better you have to feel. How can you feel good if there is no sacrifice?

[nikegundog]

There is basically no health risks for consuming lead pellets, other than chipping a tooth, which will be the same with non-tox.

That's not what I have read unless I'm not understanding what I read. I also know that lead shot is illegal to use when hunting over wet lands in my home state of PA because it is toxic to ducks and other wildlife. As for what I'm looking for I don't have a good understanding of shotgun pattern performance but I do know what lead shot does with #6 or 7.5 shot on average at say 25 to 30 yds. I would like a #6 duck & pheasant load of something non lead that will give me the closest performance to lead shot.

Lots of miss information out there, about 6 years ago a few States removed "venison for hunger" from food shelves, destroying the meat. Since that time lots of agencies have done studies on lead ingestion and now the programs are back in full swing. All the studies here by the DNR agencies state the same fact, "To date, no illnesses have been linked to consumption of lead particles in hunter-harvested venison". In you fear for your health because of lead poisoning, don't look into mercury content in fish.

[Country Guy2]

The mercury is a scary reality but not really within my control. Sounds like steel is the most economical way to go but I still have a few boxes of lead to put to use. Might also give the bismuth and tungsten a try as well just to experiment a bit. Thanks for all the help guys, hope I get the chance to use some of these new shells in the coming season.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Whether you agree with USGS or not. Lead is slowly but surely on its way out. California is once again setting the standard for the rest of the country to follow.
www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/lead_poisoning

Nate

[Neil]

Whether you agree with USGS or not. Lead is slowly but surely on its way out. California is once again setting the standard for the rest of the country to follow.
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inform ... _poisoning

Nate

USGS? Please tell us what great things have come out of California? Just one will do. Those that moved to Colorado have ruined both states. It is junk science. Read your link with an open mind, it is all speculation.

The Federal Goverment has too much money when NASA thinks studying global warming is part of its mission, now USGS thinks it should spend tax dollars on USF&W's job. What next, IRS involved in health care? No wait, they are. How about CDC advocating gun control? Talk about waste and abuse. Congress legislates light bulbs and toilets, and soon ceiling fans.

It will continue until we wake up or the Chinese quit loaning us money.

[birddogger]

I am afraid it may already too late. It seems that, other wise intelligent people, either refuse or have lost the ability to think for themselves and soak up everything they read or see on TV without questioning anything.

Charlie

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Whether you agree with USGS or not. Lead is slowly but surely on its way out. California is once again setting the standard for the rest of the country to follow.
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inform ... _poisoning

Nate

USGS? Please tell us what great things have come out of California? Just one will do. Those that moved to Colorado have ruined both states. It is junk science. Read your link with an open mind, it is all speculation.

The Federal Goverment has too much money when NASA thinks studying global warming is part of its mission, now USGS thinks it should spend tax dollars on USF&W's job. What next, IRS involved in health care? No wait, they are. How about CDC advocating gun control? Talk about waste and abuse. Congress legislates light bulbs and toilets, and soon ceiling fans.

It will continue until we wake up or the Chinese quit loaning us money.

Never said I agreed with it Neil. Just pointing out the writing on the wall. Lead is dead!

Nate

[Neil]

Sorry I misunderstood Nate, it was your saying California is setting the standard to which I object. To me it is like saying Detriot is setting the standard on city governance.

But you are right we will not only lose lead, we will lose the guns, it is just a matter of time. I am going try to delay it.

[Ez4]

Since we're on the subject. How about different metals for barrel life? Shouldn't copper being softer than steel be better for the life of a barrel? What about copper covered lead shot as lead becomes progressively banned. Bismuth is likely better than tungsten also. Although minimal, it could potentially be a cost factor.

[deseeker]

Since we're on the subject. How about different metals for barrel life? Shouldn't copper being softer than steel be better for the life of a barrel? What about copper covered lead shot as lead becomes progressively banned. Bismuth is likely better than tungsten also. Although minimal, it could potentially be a cost factor.

If lead is banned, you will not be able to use copper or nickel plated shot because it is still lead underneath the copper and nickel---so it will be illegal also.

[Mountaineer]

Since we're on the subject. How about different metals for barrel life? Shouldn't copper being softer than steel be better for the life of a barrel? ....

I would not think that barrel life itself is much of a factor.
With steel, early steel, what normally occurred(s) is a very slight expansion and then the expansion stops.
That can indeed cause a problem with ribs, perhaps with those silly choke tubes, or the attachments of two-barrel guns but a plain single barrel 12 gauge of even IM constriction is unlikely to experience a game-ender of a failure.
I shot BBB or T through an IM for several years and saw no expansion...a lot goes into, if any, barrel expansion.
I expect that gun companies took a very conservative approach to constriction with steel for liability reasons.
Double gunners, especially with some double guns, had and have legitimate worries...and, I would guess, other choices as well.
No one liked to be forced into using steel...simple as that.
No one likes the cost of subsequent offerings either.

I doubt that any product will ever match lead in effectiveness on gamebirds, on the patterning board and on and on....but, lead does have a half-life in being allowed for use.
Bad information, worse math plus reality indicates that fact.
At a coming 62, I am unlikely to see a wholesale ban...someone will.
While non-tox can be hard on birds in several ways.....there are far larger concerns affecting birdhunters and the birds themselves than banning lead shot...it's a shame that lead shot is so much more of a glamorous cause for the uninformed than forest management or a host of other issues....and steel is too satisfying a cause to rant back at the guvmint being the dumb, narrowly-focused guvmint.
It's just that the "being forced" or forcing deal gets folks all a-twitter and looking for a flag to carry....whether for or agin lead shot.

[P&PGunsmith]

Sorry I misunderstood Nate, it was your saying California is setting the standard to which I object. To me it is like saying Detriot is setting the standard on city governance.

But you are right we will not only lose lead, we will lose the guns, it is just a matter of time. I am going try to delay it.

This is why i warn everyone who laughs at us in California. It is coming we just alway get it first. I wish all of the other states could back those of us who fight it, maybe we would have a chance.
to the original question, has anyone tried the AA steel. I have not.

[Neil]

All shotgun shot is just the next step, they are very concerned about lead pistol and rifle bullets. And in heavily used shooting ranges near watersheds with some justification, at least more than upland hunting.

[oldbeek]

I am from California and have bought a hunting license every year since 1954. I have bought my last! I will drive a little further to Nevada from now on. Steel just does not have the killing power of lead and I am not going to wound birds so they can become vulture food.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Hevi Shot patterns better then lead and kills just as well if not better but it is expensive. As for Cali, the lead ban only effects a little part of the state and according to what Parks and Wildlife told me they have seen no effect on the environment.

[mtlhdr]

As for Cali, the lead ban only effects a little part of the state and according to what Parks and Wildlife told me they have seen no effect on the environment.

The governor signed a state-wide lead hunting ban last year to be fully implemented by 2019. It looks like there will be a push to start banning lead for hunting in 2015 in certain state-managed lands. Despite the on-going lead ban in the CA condor area, condors continue to be afflicted by lead poisoning. Apparently they have an affinity for lead-based paints at dumps. I just purchased a basic shotshell reloader, but even hand-loaded (non-steel) non-toxics are pushing $2 a shell and powder is incredibly scarce. I've got a lot of lead to use up chasing chukar in Nevada...

[RichK]

I use Kent steel and like it. It's also relatively affordable.

[P&PGunsmith]

I use Winchester supreme for my duck hunting and it has done a very good job.