My new Thunderhead Puppy

[mountaindogs]

From Der Deutsch Kurzhaar, The German Shorthaired Pointer” by Georgina M. Byrne:
as found on http://www.dogstuff.info/breed_standard ... byrne.html

"It is interesting that the German Standard allows what amounts to tricolour with its allowed "sandy colour" on the muzzle and feet. Atta Sand, a littermate of the very important sire, Artus Sand, was tricoloured (Maxwell, 1965), but I have no idea of how her colours were distributed. I have asked several distinguished German fanciers about the "Gelber Brand", and there seems to be some disagreement as to what it really is. There is no doubt however, that it is very rare.

It is important to recognise that dogs left in the sun will often suffer bleaching of the coat, on the head and muzzle in particular, and dogs which are out of coat may have a striking variation in colour between the old coat and the new. Such dogs cannot be called tricoloured.

Our first few litters produced a number of dogs which had an area of slightly bleached-looking hairs towards the end of the tail. This was virtually invisible in the ticked dogs, but could readily be seen in the solid livers. The individual hairs had an "agouti" appearance, with definite shading along their length, from light liver to dark. It was not penalised by judges and seems to have disappeared from our dogs.

I do not know of any black with a liver (or any other coloured) patch, although I have seen two liver and white littermates which had what amounted to "pink patches." These were a single area of coat which looked as if it had had bleach spilt on it. This condition may well have been due to a somatic mutation, like the black spots sometimes appearing on Cocker Spaniels and Irish Setters (Little, 1957). I do not believe that such dogs could be regarded as being true tricolours from the breeding point of view, but conformation judges well might interpret them as such.

One would expect that a tricoloured GSP would have markings similar to those of, for example, a tricoloured spaniel. These consist of the basic liver or black colouring plus tan markings in such locations as eyebrows, cheeks, legs and underside of tail. Buchwald (1945), quoted by Burns (1952) designated the "bicolor" markings found (only rarely) in the "Short-haired Bird Dog" as being "a la Dachshund." In the same chapter (Burns, 1952), an investigation of the colouration of GSPs listed in the Danish Studbooks (Volumes 55 to 67), included the description of Hesthaven’s Rap 31845, as follows: "brown-speckled with brown spots. Tricoloured head. Hound markings." Rap was the sire of the famous stud, Bob (Koge) 35447. Also, a brother of Rap was described as: "Tricoloured. Hound markings on cheeks and ear." I have never seen a GSP with such colouration, but I have seen a liver and white German Wirehair with similar tan markings to those mentioned above."
----------------
I suppose my jury is still out as to whether it is truly "Gelber Brand" Is this the same color reffered to for dobermans, or dachshunds? Do they call that "Gelber Brand?" Why would it have it's own unique name if not? The Germans surely have other breeds with tan points like that. Is it rare merely because it is not preffered? Is it rare becaue it was never bred? It seems the "known tri-color gene" is merely a linked recessive, and would be easy to become much more prevelant with a little bit if breeding it. I don't think I would find it extremely rare, but I don't think like some people. Does anyone have a picture of it before the 50's? Or even pictures of any of the dogs mentions above?

[thunderhead]

Don't you think a breeder who purposely breeds undesirable traits and justify it with performance are doing there breed a great injustice? To some it's more commonly known as kennel blindness. Today we don't have to cull, some don't have stomach for it. We can spay , Neuter, or give limited registrations or no reg at all. In a breeding program IMO we must put the breed and standard first , not our own tunnel vision.

There are many well know kennels who do breed to black. There is even a picture of one on your website that was a product of your breeding. Black is a fault by AKC definition. Why are you not considering yourself, or some of those other kennels as a victim of "tunnel vision" and "kennel blindness"

[mountaindogs]

On the black, many would like to see that changed and are working to have it voted in. Does that matter to this discussion -- I do not know. If I were to be convinced that the tri's were the same thing reffered to as Gelber brand, it might make a difference.

"Germany (F.C.I.):

1. Solid liver.
2. Liver, with slight white or ticking on chest or toes.
3. Dark liver roan with liver head, liver patches or spots. The basic colour of this dog is neither liver with white or white with liver, but an intimate blend of the two colours, resulting in that unobtrusive appearance which is so valuable for practical purposes. The inside of the hind legs and the tip of the tail are often lighter in colour.
4. Light liver roan, liver head, liver patches or spots. This type of colouring has few liver hairs, with the white hair predominating, makingthe dog appear lighter overall.
5. White, liver head markings, liver patches or spots.
6. Black, in the same shades and variations as liver.
n.b. Slight tendency to sandy colour around the muzzle and feet is permissible ("Gelber Brand.")

The sandy color is only stated to be muzzle and feet. Why not eyebrows? All classic tan point tri's have eyebrow and muzzle, and the legs vary, or am I wrong? But as the first post stated tri's are registered in the stud book, which does certainly cause some thought. And slight tendancy would seem to be a very small thing, not so obvious. But these are just my musings on a topic I have long wished I had more and consitant info.

[thunderhead]

Just got e-mail from a German breeder and judge. I sent her a picture of the pup. Her response :

Hallo- Gelber Brand is o-k- Greeiting madonna



Greetings, Madonna, You are a German breeder and judge . Do you see
> DK or GSP of this color? Is it OK with German Gelber Brand? Thank. You
> GPBLITZ (Howie Hill)

Madonna, a German breeder and judge, confirmed that the color is Gelber Brand. The more that I look at some of the kennels that are producing dogs owned by many on this forum, the more DQ black dogs I am finding. I guess Gelber Brand and Black are in the same boat on this one.

[thunderhead]

The information that you do get on tri color says it is very rare.

Would a well respected breeder who wants to improve the breed, breed to a dog that has HD, known to have seizures, or a number of other physical defects. I would venture a guess and say no, probably not. Would a breeder breed to a DQ color? Many have.

[mofro14]

I see many blacks on german website, yet to see a tri color , Why? I have different thoughts but not proof.

The following is from “Der Deutsch Kurzhaar, The German Shorthaired Pointer” by Georgina M. Byrne. :

2. Gene Locus “B” (black):
There are only two alleles at the “B” locus:
B Black
b Liver
The black allele “B” is a simple dominant over “b” (liver). There are no intermediate colours. The GSP can be “BB” (homozygous black), “Bb” (heterozygous black) or “bb” (liver) (Figure 12.1).

So if I read this correctly, Black would be dominant, therefore easier to obtain in any breeding. This might explain why Black dogs show up on these german websites.

Also from the same book:

It should be noted, however, that the German GSP Standard allows for the “gelber brand”, which has been translated as “a slight tendency to sandy colour around the muzzle or feet”. There is some documentation of tricoloured GSPs described (Burns, 1952) as having markings “a la Dachshund”. Presumably, such dogs were “atat”, and their normal-coloured parents were both “Aat”.

This would explain that the tricolor dogs need two parents that have at least one "at", or recessive, gene and would be more difficult to obtain a tricolor dog. If it is rare, along with being recessive you are not going to see many tricolor dogs being produced. The way you are wording things it sounds like you are saying Black coloring may not be allowed but must not be that bad because there are more of them, and tricolors are hard to find for some bad "reason". The reason I see is they are recessive.

I ain't no expert, but darnit that's my two cents.

[vzkennels]

As far as the Blacks go lets just say I have voted not to allow it.A fault is a fault like I said we pick & choose but a DQ is a DQ so yes I do compare them as being the same as a bad bite.I have never owned or bred to a black & won't untill it's been approved but I for one will never vote for it for many reasons.No I'm not trying to say I'm above anyone or my opinion is any more important then anyone elses.Here is my take on these RARE colors some one will take one of these pups & if not fixed start breeding for that color & ask twice as much for them just because of their color calling it RARE just as they did with the B & W untill people started to realise they are not so RARE anymore.Whats the difference between breeding a Tri color,All White that I have seen advertised for twice as much as the rest of the litter because there are only 3 or 4 in the country.You know it really makes no difference what I think,I'm not a big breeder,in fact breed less then a litter a yr but to breed for something to JACK up the prices on it's rarity,Well you decide.Maybe you didn't get twice as much for the pup but I bet it wasn't any less then a correct colored pup.I can gaurantee there is someone out there licking there chops thinking of how much they could ask for these pups just because of their color.Like I have stated over & over this is only my opinion but seems some others have the same thoughts.

[High Voltage]

Just got e-mail from a German breeder and judge. I sent her a picture of the pup. Her response :

Hallo- Gelber Brand is o-k- Greeiting madonna



Greetings, Madonna, You are a German breeder and judge . Do you see
> DK or GSP of this color? Is it OK with German Gelber Brand? Thank. You
> GPBLITZ (Howie Hill)

Madonna, a German breeder and judge, confirmed that the color is Gelber Brand. The more that I look at some of the kennels that are producing dogs owned by many on this forum, the more DQ black dogs I am finding. I guess Gelber Brand and Black are in the same boat on this one.

Black is only a DQ in the show ring. You can register a Black GSP in AKC and NAVHDA, there is NO tri-color choice on the AKC or NAVHDA register so I ask again, What color did you register your pup as?

[Greg Jennings]

I think we should lighten up. I think this is a side consequence of breeding two nice dogs for entirely the right reasons. We all know that there are no perfect dogs and that there will be a range of different outcomes in a litter.

[Bossman27]

Its a matter of opinion as I said before, some people may be traditionalists and against it comparing it to a physical default, and some (like me) may think its just a paint job on a high quality dog from a high quality breeding and think its ridiculous to compare to a physical default. The fact of the matter is this is a rare color variation and it doesn't seem as though Ron is trying to take advantage of this rare color variation for his own financial benefit. Also, he is not breeding some trait outside of the Shorthair genepool into his line, its simply a rare trait and just a paint job at that. I buy my dogs to be studs in the field, I don't care about color or something being a dq in America, therefore I would buy a black dog or a tricolor if it had the right background. A lot of people wouldn't, but no one will force you to so don't. Thats my two cents, not saying I'm right or wrong just the way I look at it. Also, I think Ron deserves the benefit of the doubt, he has done more for the advancement of the line than most and no one jumps all over those who breed back dogs just because they're more common, I think if you feel this way about tri-colors you should chastise those who post pictures of black dogs on here just the same.

[mountaindogs]

I was only stating that black is dominant and only shows up when planned. You must have black to get black. Recessive genes show up from parents who do not express it. Chocolate labs are fully recessive to black labs. They WERE not very common until they became popular. Any resessive gene can go from rare to common with popularity. Liver color is ressesive to black in the GSP as well, and would you call it rare? [So I do not feel that the statement that "it is very rare" gives me much to go on. If it is very rare, then it is so because it was NOT preffered at all. White factoring was also not preferred and was less common, but not desribed at rare, I do not think. ] I most certainly am NOT saying black is okay because because it is more common! I am saying I can see and fully understand what the German standard means by black. It is clear and throroughly described. I agree that it should be allowed and have voted thus, as the creators of the breed intentionally added it in for for a purpose. I would want a more thorough exploration of and concesus by the German Registry of what Gelber Brand is before jumping into it. So I was only stating that I am reserved on this until thoroughly convinced. There is conflicting information as far as I am concerned even among DK owners. A DD owner I know described it as somthing different and something you would see more commonly in wirehaired breeds. By their desciption there were no tan points over the eyes, but the end of muzzle and rear of legs have rusty dirty sand look. I am not ready to go on what various people tell me since they seem to disagree. But I am not saying it is wrong. I am saying I do not have enough information at this time, and thus I am not going to jump on board. If you know you are right, convince the German Registry to clearly define it for the rest of us.

I am not able to have an argument on which I have so little to go on. I bow out of the conversation, with admittedly little knowledge.
________________
to the new puppy owner:
The puppy remains cute and given the lineage probably destined to be a great hunter. I hope you continue to post as I would very much like to see the progress and wish the very best for you, and your new family member.

[ACooper]

I was only stating that black is dominant and only shows up when planned. You must have black to get black. Recessive genes show up from parents who do not express it. Chocolate labs are fully recessive to black labs. They WERE not very common until they became popular. Any resessive gene can go from rare to common with popularity. Liver color is ressesive to black in the GSP as well, and would you call it rare? [So I do not feel that the statement that "it is very rare" gives me much to go on. If it is very rare, then it is so because it was NOT preffered at all. White factoring was also not preferred and was less common, but not desribed at rare, I do not think. ] I most certainly am NOT saying black is okay because because it is more common! I am saying I can see and fully understand what the German standard means by black. It is clear and throroughly described. I agree that it should be allowed and have voted thus, as the creators of the breed intentionally added it in for for a purpose. I would want a more thorough exploration of and concesus by the German Registry of what Gelber Brand is before jumping into it. So I was only stating that I am reserved on this until thoroughly convinced. There is conflicting information as far as I am concerned even among DK owners. A DD owner I know described it as somthing different and something you would see more commonly in wirehaired breeds. By their desciption there were no tan points over the eyes, but the end of muzzle and rear of legs have rusty dirty sand look. I am not ready to go on what various people tell me since they seem to disagree. But I am not saying it is wrong. I am saying I do not have enough information at this time, and thus I am not going to jump on board. If you know you are right, convince the German Registry to clearly define it for the rest of us.

If you are not convinced that this dog is "gelber brand" what else do you think it is?

This dog is no different than a black dog (except blacks are common). We have a couple of blacks here, I prefer liver, but good dogs come in lots of colors.

[vzkennels]

So all white would be fine then? Remember just a paint job.I suppose the ole Double Standard.

Oh you think a dog with a bad bite can't perform to the same level as a dog with the wrong color,that's what I call ridiculous!!

Ok Greg I'm done was this to HEAVY or TOO LIGHT.But if they didn't want to hear all this then maybe the thread should have never been started.

[Bossman27]

So all white would be fine then? Remember just a paint job.I suppose the ole Double Standard.

Oh you think a dog with a bad bite can't perform to the same level as a dog with the wrong color,that's what I call ridiculous!!

Ok Greg I'm done was this to HEAVY or TOO LIGHT.But if they didn't want to hear all this then maybe the thread should have never been started.

I don't think this was the intent of the thread, a first owner was excited and proud of his first dog and posted a picture. Lighten up on the guy, this a member of his family now.

[ACooper]

IMO solid white would not be ok, I know I am being a hypocrite.

This all boils down to the fact white dogs, lemon dogs, and tri color dogs are never going to affect 99% of us, so agree or disagree you dont have to buy one or breed to one if you dont want to. People breed to dogs with questionable temperments, bites, hips, HUNTING ABILITY, known carriers of Lupoid Dermatosis and numerous other things and no one makes nearly as big of a deal out of those. Myself included.

BTW I have strong opinions about the solid white, lemon and orange gsps, in my opinion they are not a "genetic fluke".

[mountaindogs]

The puppy is tri color. I am not convinced tri-color is Gelber Brand, but might be same. Don't know. Just seems odd for the Germans to call the color they refer to as Gelber Brand such a unique name. Especially when it was not the first time they had seen or described a tap point in a breed. And for them to ignore eyebrows. Anyone ever seen a true tri without the tan point eybrows? I guess that combined with the specific mention of "very rare" makes me suspect this is something else. Also, I have seen a brighter ticked dog with a sandy color to the ticking on the front legs, but head was normal. The only difference was the ticking was lighter. The white was the same. It was not orange or yellow, but closer to yellow/brown than orange, and not like tri at all. I do not know the pedigree of this dog I saw. They said it was "well bred," I wish now I had asked about the lines and all but I did not,and I did not know enough at the time to have recognized many lines anyway. It was female and pretty big, with nice solid liver head. I am thinking that we are perhaps missing another option. That it is not what we think of as tri. There is a lot more to color than we are discussing. Labs for example get "winter nose" making their noses look pinkish or self colored, but the pigment is genetically black, but cold weather causes it to look bleached and this worsens with age. It is a genetic "tendency," most common in yellows, but not a color so much as the tendancy for a color to bleach. Given that the standard specifically discusses a "tendancy" I wonder if it is not discussing something different. Tri color "is" or "is not," and does not "tend" toward a color.

But as I stated before. The references to tri and "a la dachshund" and such seems to conflict with the descriptions of muzzle and legs with no eye points, and thus I would need more info. I could go either way if I had more info that one vague statement and few peoples interpretations of that same statement. I think if there are dogs listed in the stud book as tricolored, that is hard to agrue that there is tri in the breed. But the were not listed as Gelber Brand, they were listed as tri. Why?

[birddogger]

I haven't read anything negative toward the owner of this puppy, whatsoever. I happen to agree with the majority on the breeding ethics, but I don't believe negative comments should be directed toward thunderhead kennels either. I am pretty sure that he did not plan a breeding to get a pup of this color. I,myself would not breed this puppy and am curious as to how it was able to be registered.

The owner has reason to be proud of his new puppy!! I hope he meets every expectation the owner has for him!

Good luck with your puppy!!!
Charlie

[Adam]

Gelber Brand doesnt mean "tri-color" the translation from german to english is Yellow fire

[birddogger]

y mofro14 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:30 pm

Yeah he told me some people wouldn't like it, the sire was a tricolor and I was excited with the opportunity that there may be some Tri pups, there were two tri's out of the five pups. Here is his pedigree, hopefully the link works.

I happen to agree with the majority on the breeding ethics, but I don't believe negative comments should be directed toward thunderhead kennels either. I am pretty sure that he did not plan a breeding to get a pup of this color. I,myself would not breed this puppy and am curious as to how it was able to be registered.

Yeah, I remember reading that and had forgotten about it. Looks like I contradicted myself doesn't it?? My mistake.

Charlie

[Bossman27]

There is an interesting blurb in an article on Westwind's site regarding tricolors.

"Feldmann I, an early experimental animal, who looked more like a Basset Hound was even tri-colored. Yes, there are still a few tri-colors born today - although most are quickly killed by ignorant breeders who assume that something they didn’t know about must have happened at breeding. NFC/FC Patrica von Frulord who won both National Field Trial Championships in 1971 was a tri-color. Normally a tri-color will have a small patch or two that is tan in color."

http://www.westwindgsps.com/german_shor ... istory.htm

[Greg Jennings]

Ok Greg I'm done was this to HEAVY or TOO LIGHT.But if they didn't want to hear all this then maybe the thread should have never been started.

There is nothing here that I'm going to moderate on. But as an ordinary GDF citizen, I'll say that I'm generally in favor of trying constructive engagement before anything else. If we run people off, we sure can't educate them. Heck, when I started here, I didn't even like shorthairs....

[wems2371]

Heck, when I started here, I didn't even like shorthairs....

Whoa, whoa, whoa...somebody run a back ground check on this guy! Just kidding Greg.

I think it's a good discussion, but I just don't think it belongs on this new arrival thread. I think that's what some are saying. I don't believe this has anything to do with moderating--but everything to do with separating thoughts on a new owner and his beautiful pup VERSUS how you feel about the AKC standard and how it's applied by others. Seems like a separate thread would be more appropriate for the latter thought.

As an Edit: I would like to add that I meant GSPCA standard. At the time I was typing, I was thinking of the American GSPCA standard vs the German DK standard, and my fingers went in a different direction than my brain. :roll: Won't be the last time either...

[lvrgsp]

I think it's a good discussion as well....whatever it is its a pretty pup, good luck with him.....

Now in saying all that......I do not believe the Gelber Brand can pass on and skip many many generations and then all of a sudden just pop up...genetics does not work that way folks. It's got to come from somewhere. Genes just dont pop up folks.....curious have the sire and dam or any pups been color coat tested?

Now this is a Navhda VC bred litter right?
Had this been a FC bred litter we all would be looking and saying where is the pointer in the woodpile, and we all know it, all of us.....so where's the difference?
I would get a color coat test ran for the little e gene.......

JMO,
Chip

[lvrgsp]

Ok Howie.....Where'd it come from? Just asking the questions. It just popped up after years and years, it's a mystery no one really knows why it just happens right? I don't believe it. I know your just passing on the info Howie, I appreciate that.

And you can Gelber this and Gelber that all you want, I don't buy it, not today.

Again this is of course JMO,
Chip

[ezzy333]

how you feel about the AKC standard

I believe we are talking about the GSP standard. AKC has nothing to do with it except try to enforce the standard the GSP club votes on and approves. Its the members of the club's standard.

Ezzy

[mountaindogs]

Thunderhead has worked pretty hard to prove their dogs. Their dogs are better titled and better trained than mine, and I am certainly not pointing fingers here. In another breed there was a particular color to color mating that was very taboo until more was known about genetics and it was realized that what everyone had been taught was only partially sometimes true and the breedings could be done if you knew a little more about each dogs color genetics. I would have been eager to jump on board with that despite much shunning from others, had I been breeding them.

I have never said yeah or neah on this or they should or should not. I have specifically and carefully not said, as I try to not judge until I am somewhat informed. But I remain waiting for more solid info that this is Gelber Brand because the facts do not all add up to me. I would very much like to see the orginal German Standard for Rottweiler, Doberman, Dachshund and any other breed with tan points developed in germany. I would like to compare the verbage. But I would also need them in English being the American I am. I would like to see more. learn more. Sadly I am afraid the info we need is just not there and we may never know.

And on the genetic testing the tanpoint/tri, it is based on the A(t) gene and it is one they state is not fully isolated yet. http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html There is no test for this one, yet.

[lvrgsp]

Mountain dogs I fully understand the color coat testing, that's why I said color coat test for the little e gene......they have the test for that....GSP's should not have the little e gene in the color coat test....it would answer alot of questions as far as I am concerned.

Thanks,
Chip

[ACooper]

Mountain dogs I fully understand the color coat testing, that's why I said color coat test for the little e gene......they have the test for that....GSP's should not have the little e gene in the color coat test....it would answer alot of questions as far as I am concerned.

Thanks,
Chip

Chip is the little e the color gene that comes from pointers?

[lvrgsp]

Let me put it this way for you Andy,
It is known for GSP's to produce tri color dogs that also carry the little e gene, a gene that should not be found in the GSP's.....

Chip

[lvrgsp]

Howie,
The little e is not just yellow, it is for yellow, red, lemon, cream, apricot, and variations there of, as best that I have understood it....

[ACooper]

Chip that is good info, I also did not know that the little e covered Tri as well.

[Greg Jennings]

Heck, when I started here, I didn't even like shorthairs....

Whoa, whoa, whoa...somebody run a back ground check on this guy! Just kidding Greg.

It's true! I'd only been around two shorthairs and they were plodding and houndish. They didn't compare favorably to the pointers and setters of my youth.

When I wanted a dog to run in field trials, I got on this site. Heard about Rick and Brenda and went up to visit. Saw Fritz do his thing. You know the rest.

My point is that we should be welcoming to newbies. Can't ed-u-cate them if they're not here.

Greg J.

[snips]

I have given this Tri thing alot of thought. I know it is a Brag, and I guess that is what bothers me. I am very glad you have a pup you really like and hope all the success with it. But, this is my thoughts....I feel like this is not a desired color meant to happen, here or in other countries and I have NEVER heard of anyone trying to produce it purposfully..(by breeding directly to one)..I have voted for black to pass for several years, I feel it is highly accepted in Germany and will be here before long. It has bothered me for years tho that black has been bred as a novelty, to get more money for pups, and I do not see many good breeding programs that are producing black with any given purpose in mind. Not to say there are not good breeders of black pups, just alot of junk too....That is what happens when people are producing dogs for a color. I can see from the nature of people that they might jump on a novelty bandwagon for the pure fact it is "different"....This does not help our breed, it RUINS it. Ron, I do not feel you are in this group, but people see a quality breeder putting out pups from a breeding like this, when your intentions are purely performance, then they are breeding to produce pups for a different color and because you have worked hard to produce talented and titled dogs, they will only focus on the diferent color that get lots of attention, good or bad. There are so many cross bred puppies out there asking big bucks for novelty dogs these days I do not feel like our GSPS should be adding more novelties to the list.

[mountaindogs]

on the genetics: Many of you understand this better than I, but I enjoy learing about this. If only my genetics had used dog coat colors instead of fruit flies I might have paid attention
You are correct that there is more to it than the t and you are also correct that there are some testing options. I found several intersting sites and I won't post them all due to my time, but this one is pretty interesting in the WPG and tan points. Briefly discusses the GSP.
http://www.awpga.com/Tan%20Point%20Genetics.htm

[Adam]

I just spoke with a reputable DK breeder who told me tri-colors are not accepted in the DK standard. "Gelber Brand" means "yellow" or very light liver (like sun bleached) which, yes, IS permissible--but not desired.

[AHGSP]

Good looking lil bugger! Good luck and much success with all the two of you will do together!

Good luck Thunderhead! I'm used to sitting on your side of this discussion with my Black GSP's, which by the way for those that may not know, I have campaigned and argu.....er, tried to educate to change the Standard to recognize them for 3 or 4 votes now

[briarpatch]

Let me put it this way for you Andy,
It is known for GSP's to produce tri color dogs that also carry the little e gene, a gene that should not be found in the GSP's.....

why should it not be found in the GSP ?

The GSP is made up of many breeds there is much debate on what breeds even originally made up the breed ask a DNA expert if they can for sure tell you their is no little e in the GSP they cannot because all the GSP's in the world have not been DNAed and all the founding dogs of the breed were not DNAed , and a because a GSP is made up of many breeds there is no DNA color test or any kind of DNA test available today for the GSP that 100% proves a GSP is or is not a GSP as some people pretend there is.. .. The little e is a myth and proves nothing other than maybe most GSPs dont have it, why dont most have it because most are liver and white or some variation of the two..doesnt mean other colors arent real GSP's just means they are rarer or not seen very often..

I wrote to several of the DNA labs awhile back when the white GSP debate was going on and asked if they could tell by DNA if a dog was or was not a GSP by DNA
they all hmmhauled around abit and told me 90% accurate or somewhere around there and made it sound as though it was a good test when I pushed them and asked can you tell me 100% a dog is or is not a GSP by DNA they all said NO because a GSP is made up of so many breeds it would be impossible to determine 100% if a dog was or was not a GSP by DNA, they don't have the DNA of all the founding dogs so therefore cannot say 100% that an alle is or is not supposed to be in there..

[Wagonmaster]

This whole thread makes me feel terrible. On the one hand we have a new person very proud of a nice young pup, and we have a breeder who believes he has done the right things. I have hunted over alot of different kinds of dogs, including crosses and breeds that one would not consider to be pheasant/bird dogs, and I will still pull the trigger if the dog does its job and have fun if it does its job well.

On the other hand I have seen actual, acknowledged Doberman/GSP crosses and that is one. It is not a "Tri" or a "gelber brand." If I were the owner and that pup turned out to have a sweet personality and good hunting instincts it would live its whole life at my house as part of my family. I would not breed it.

I am sorry.

[bigoak]

The 1973 akc National Champ Patricia von Frulord was a tri color.If you have Greif in your background,there is always the chance it will crop up.Jim Riesser had some when he first started breeding.I think your pup is related a number of times back to those old Greif dogs or you have some Strut in your background!

[Boxa]

Congrats again on your new pup. Again, I hope you got what you wanted, and I mean that - I wish you all the best with your dog.

[Reech]

This one has been beaten to death!

Good luck with your dog, Feed it a quality feed, keep it dry and warm and may it always wag its tail when you walk in the door!

Me

[jeogsp]

[jeogsp]

"Gelber Brand"

[briarpatch]

Jeogsp
is that another one? is that from a different litter or the same litter as the original poster?

To the orignal poster I wouldnt take peoples criticisms to heart, I am sure the first black gsp owners in this country were met with simular responces, people tend to disbelieve things if its unusual and not the norm to what they are accustomed,

enjoy your pup

[jeogsp]

That is an old puppy pic, she is a litter mate of Fritz (sire to the original posters pup).

[Adam]

That is not "gelber brand" read my post above... And even if it was its this is not a DK this is an American GSP

[ACooper]

Just got e-mail from a German breeder and judge. I sent her a picture of the pup. Her response :

Hallo- Gelber Brand is o-k- Greeiting madonna



Greetings, Madonna, You are a German breeder and judge . Do you see
> DK or GSP of this color? Is it OK with German Gelber Brand? Thank. You
> GPBLITZ (Howie Hill)

So we have one german judge that says it is gelber brand, and Adam spoke to one that says no. So who is correct?

[Chaingang]

I just want to say that I have met the original poster and his puppy. He happens to live not far away and we hooked up to to give the dogs a run. He's a fine young man who is excited about his new prospect and he should be. What started out as a proud new owner wanting to share his enthusiasm on his first pointing dog has turned out to be a debate from some as to whether this is a purebred GSP or whether or not the breeding should have happened. I think we could all cut the guy some slack and be happy that he is happy and let it be at that.

From the short time that we had together I can attest that he is excited about his future with this fine young pup. I hope this thread has not left a bad taste in his mouth and that he will continue to visit here and join in on discussions and learn at the same time.

FWIW

[mountaindogs]

I just want to say that I have met the original poster and his puppy. He happens to live not far away and we hooked up to to give the dogs a run. He's a fine young man who is exited about his new prospect and he should be. What started out as a proud new owner wanting to share his enthusiasm on his first pointing dog has turned out to be a debate from some as to whether this is a purebred GSP or whether or not the breeding should have happened. I think we could all cut the guy some slack and be happy that he is happy and let it be at that.

From the short time that we had together I can attest that he is excited about his future with this fine young pup. I hope this thread has not left a bad taste in his mouth and that he will continue to visit here and join in on discussions and learn at the same time.

FWIW

On this, I very much agree. I wish both owner and new puppy the very best.

[Supercalifragilistic]

In all honesty, this disagreement is all based on opinions and nothing more! For those of you who say that a tri-color is a fault _Great! For those of you who say that a tri-color is not a fault-Great! It is only considered a fault to AKC, just as the black is. You can still hunt and test with them as you would any other GSP. The only thing you can't do is show in conformation in AKC but you can show in conformation in German shows. So to say that this breeder is irresponsible is ridiculous! He is still breeding excellent dogs and has the proof to show all of you. He is NOT doing anything to hinder this breed at all, some of his dogs have these genes and there is nothing wrong with that unless you only agree with AKC. Don't forget where these dogs originated from.