Havencrest Gundogs --Website Grand-opening

[Havencrest Gundogs]

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[ezzy333]

Site looks good but I dont find any pedigrees and no info on the accomplishments of any of the dogs. Do you show them and do tests and trials or are they hunted and on what kind of birds?
Are any of the dogs OFA certified or had any health checks? Seems to me to be a real lack of information about your dogs. I think that eliminates a lot of people from purchasing a puppy and it doen't show the attemps you are making to better or maintain the breeds that you have.

JMO
Ezzy

[snips]

I did not know AKC inspected private facilities. I know the state does ours in order to have a kennel license. Does AKC inspect?

[Havencrest Gundogs]

1

[ezzy333]

I did find a couple of pedigrees for the Brits but it concerns me that you are breeding a black dog which is a disqualification and he shows up in all the pedigrees I could find. I have no problem breeding dogs that are called French Brits into the American lines, though many people do, but I do have a problem with breeding dogs with a major fault intentionally. Those faults will show up for years to come if people are using the pups for breeding. Just doesn't sound fair to me to an unexpecting owner when he breeds a dog he thinks is pure to the breed standard. Same is true with the size problems we have today.

I still do not find any OFA or other tests, even though you the breed you are involved with has a much too high incident of bad hips. It's just another area that I think the customer deserves to know every bit of information possible about all genetic faults before spending their money on the puppy of their dreams only to find it isn't healthy.

Again, this is my opinion of what a responsible breeder that is interested in the breed and their customers and not just income. I've been at this for too many years to see the same mistakes repeated over and over.

Ezzy

[volraider]

Ezzy maybe your opinion of what a responsible breeder is not the same as other people. Seems like anytime someone makes a post about having a litter you run them down. If you don't have anything good to say about a post maybe you should say nothing at all. Thats my opinion.

[ezzy333]

Thank you. I didn't know this was about a litter for sale but maybe I missed it. And I think the man asked for any comments we could offer. But you point is well intended and I will try to follow up on it. I didn't enjoy having to make those observations either but if it makes someone think a little more about what they are breeding and the effect it can have on both dogs and owners then I am glad I did.

Ezzy

[Havencrest Gundogs]

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[Havencrest Gundogs]

Hi Volraider--I guess from your post that I'm not the first one he's bashed on--I ask for feedback on my website--one guy told me to change my contrast so I did and it did make it easier to read--I'm still loading new things on there--I've been doing this for many years and haven't had any complaints on my dogs yet. Maybe you don't agree with my practices either but I feel pretty confident about them when the AKC inspector told me that I was in the top 25% of the kennels he'd inspected.
--Jeremy

[ezzy333]

Wow--I loooked at your dogs there--so I kinda understand--alot of American Britt owners have problems with the French lines and yes it is a disqualification in the Show Ring--I'm not hiding anything--Buddys picture is right on there--the first britts imported were orange and the AKC set that standard and have never changed it--- its nearly impossible to get a standard changed once it is set--most of your genectic problems in britts evolved from people in the good old USA linebreding( linebreeding if it comes out good, if they come out stupid or crippled they call them inbred--by the way the first sign is heart murmers) to get them big enough to run field trials with longer legged and larger breeds. I really didn't ask you to bash my dogs--I'm not bashing your 2 dogs--I wouldn't do that -It looks like you bought about the same time you joined this forum---and you spend alot of time on here--they look like really nice dogs and I'm glad you have the time to campaign them--what do you want for a pup--just asking-- You are being very childish--If you don't want one of my dogs then don't buy one..By the way the man I bought my britts from has been breeding imported and american Britts for over 40 years--so I'll take his advice over yours any day--in our area we can't hardly find a dog that doesn't have some of his bloodlines in there--He imported his dogs because of the breed getting away from what it was supposed to be--Don't be so confident on your testing either unless you test each pup individually--I personally know of a guy that is breeding a solid black Rotti to a Black Lab and selling the puppys to a guy in Grand Rapids MI who runs a hunting kennel--who is putting really nice papers on them--and they got the biggest blocky heads you've ever seen(limited registration of course)--If you know anything about breeding is that the Lab genes will trump about anything bred to--so the offspring come out really looking like a lab---I've seen the silver labs--if thats not a cross then nothing is. I would't have one of them but some people do.

Just for your information, I have no problem with French Brits since the Brits I started with about 50 years ago all had French dogs still in their three generation pedigree. So in my mind all Brits are French Brits but some have been here in this country longer. I don't know if you just mis-spoke or not but AKC does not make standards for any breed. The breed club does that and it is voted on by the members. The reason Black was not included is because it wasn't in the French standard either. It has been added more recently. My problem has nothing to do with being chilish but rather that you are registering your dogs as Brittanys and not as French Brittanys which isn't recognized as a seperate breed by AKC. So any buyer that gets a pup has bought what they think is a registered Brittany but may not be aware it is out of a dog that is disqualified as a Brit. You can have your opinion of line breeding but you will not find any evidence that line breeding has caused any problems with in the Brits or any other breed. And yes of course, we test each pup as far as hips and health issues. That is standard practise with most breeders in the past few years. Rots and Labs or any other cross has nothing to do with our discussion but rather just what we are doing to our breed.

I like you have been breeding hunting dogs for the average hunter and have been concerned about many of the field trial bred dogs. But I have also spent most of my life breeding Brits and am willing to work very hard at trying to continue the general improvements we have seen in the breed in the past 50 years and hopefully keep them a dual caliber dog where sield and show are all about the same dogs. With that in mind, I personally refuse to breed to any dog that is not in the breed standard for without it we will end up with dogs of all colors, sizes, and types instead of the Brittanys we have loved for years.

I am guessing your dogs are nice dogs and will fit the bill for many people wanting a nice pet and hunting dog but it is a concern that they are being sold as Brittanys without health guaratees or mention of carrying a color that disqualifies them to the breed standard.

Ezzy

[Havencrest Gundogs]

Ezzy--Please go to the breed standard at the top of my britt page(It links to the AKC)--then click on the color and markings and you will see that they are AKC registered under the codes that you fill in on the puppy papers---It is marked as an Alternate color and is only a disqualification for showing purposes---but my dogs are not for the purpose of showing--they are intended for pleasure hunting and companions--I apoligize for getting testy in my last post but I take great care with my dogs and they do come with a health contract for any congential health defects.

[snips]

I am pretty much with Ezzy here in that I think anyone breeding dogs should do hip xrays. GSP's have not been testing for the last few yrs, but last 30 -40 or so yrs. Is why I believe we have a pretty clean breed. I also believe natural ability is very important, but I do not breed anything that is not trained to an upper level to show trainability also. If that dog has any training quirks it is not bred, or if a dog produces any dog with quirks it is not bred or neutered. Not bashing you, just saying what is important to us as breeders to keep a breed producing dogs that can be workable gundogs. Good luck...

[Havencrest Gundogs]

Here is a question for the masses and then I will remove my post from here if I can figure out how---Sorry to bother some of you on here--How did they elect to let a LIVER dog be in the show ring when it carries a Black recessive gene--without the black there is no liver or tris. This is a very old argument in the Britt World that has been there for a long time--

[mountaindogs]

I would not let one person's opinion on color get you too uptight. Just breed the very best, healthiest, most well balenced, driven, trainable dogs that you possibly can and stand behind your dogs. Always be able to give them a home back if need be, always be willing and able to help rehome if need be, always be available to all you puppies' new owners, and the rest will probably come out in the wash.

[ezzy333]

Here is a question for the masses and then I will remove my post from here if I can figure out how---Sorry to bother some of you on here--How did they elect to let a LIVER dog be in the show ring when it carries a Black recessive gene--without the black there is no liver or tris. This is a very old argument in the Britt World that has been there for a long time--

The breed stabdard has nothing to do with the show ring except that is the only test we have to ensure a dog meets that standard. I want to see the research that shows a liver dog in any breed carries a black recessive. I have never heard of such a thing. Orange and liver have been around for years here and in France though they were brought here after the orange coloring. I think the color thing is something that some people have exploited as a rare color when it isn't an accepted color for the breed in this country.

In my opinion there has been way too much effort in breeding for a color rather than performance and doing it within the accepted breed standard. It's just another way to split the breed into differnt factions with the result being a split in the breed as a whole. When color can be proven to enhance performance then I will work to get the standard changed but till then I like the standard that the breeders of the past have written.

I want you to understand also I am not critizing your dogs or how they perform. I was and still am concerned that people who are breeding make every effort possible to breed Brittanys that meet that standard so people of the future will have a chance to enjoy the same dogs we do and not some dog that has lost it's breed identity and health standards. And I do agree completely with your attemt to breed a dog that fills the need of the common family wanting a great pet and hunting dog.

Ezzy

[Havencrest Gundogs]

Ok here we go--Please go to the following link to learn a little about genectics---this was posted in American Brittany Magizine in Nov.2001 pages 16-19--believe it or not your dogs also carry a black gene it is masked by having 2 recessive genes bred together--http://wyngold-brittanys.com/brittanyColor.html --it also clearly states that black and liver are the same gene. It also states that years ago a valuable gene pool was lost due to people trying to breed for color...I'm really glad I took biology in High School--It really helped learn about genectics--even if it was a very basic class.
My pups always have a home to come back to and I have had to rehome a couple(divorces do happen). I tell people to never let one of my pups end up in a pound--there are plenty of people (without much money)who would love to get the chance to own a good dog--I rehomed them in my local town.

[ezzy333]

Your link doesn't work. Can you re do it.

Ezzy

[natetnc]

I was and still am concerned that people who are breeding make every effort possible to breed Brittanys that meet that standard so people of the future will have a chance to enjoy the same dogs we do and not some dog that has lost it's breed identity and health standards.

i have to chuckle when i see this kind of tunnel vision. does everyone have to own a brittany that meets show standards just because that is what you prefer? i am not saying i either agree or dissagree with the breeding practices but c'mon, lets not play hitler of the brittany community. i do agree that hips should be checked/certified, but if you are truely concerned about the accuracy of certification and the hips of future generations why not mention the more objective PennHIP over the subjective OFA?

havencrest... i will get back to you with any suggestions as this thread, like many others, has turned into a GDF "responsible breeding" definition thread.

[Havencrest Gundogs]

http://www.wyngold-brittanys.com/BrittanyColor.html

[natetnc]

i thought the website was better than most. it was easy to navigate and i am the worlds worst to bash a site with complex structure... theres just no need for it. the contrast of text to solid background was nice, i liked the fact that the text layer was not directly on the tree/shotgun layer, would have been incredibly hard on the eyes. the font took some getting used to but at the same time gave the page a little flavor.

as previously mentioned, if your dogs have any titles or certifications put them on there, if they don't then work on getting them some, it would help sell them pups. you may have the best dogs out there but if you don't have back up its going to be hard for me to take your word for it.

pics - get that pic off of your site in the "kennels" section with the britt hanging over the top of your 10ft fence, a little comical but looks very irresponsible.
- take better pictures of your breeding stock. these are pointing dogs not labs have them standing or on point...... not sitting. i am hoping it is just the positions (sitting) but a lot of your dogs look out of shape in those pics, do them some justice.
- i liked the abundance of pictures for each pup

information - i think your website offers enough information to determine if they would want to buy a dog from you or not. they know what you do and can gain a sense of how your operation runs. depending on the clientele your after you may want to limit the number of breeds you are currently advertising. when i see your list of many breeds i see a breeder who is after $ and that would make me wonder about the quality of what i was getting.


-Nate

[volraider]

Nate, that’s a great post! Compliments and a little constructive criticisms. This should help the guy and not come off as trying to run down someone operation. Very good.

[Havencrest Gundogs]

Thanks Guys--that was more what I was expecting--We were also concerned about putting them all on there. When you read my home page and our about us page --you will notice that I inherited my aunt's kennel. What I didn't say was what I inherited. If I was in it for the money I would have never gotten rid of the the pomerains,sht-zues,yorkkies,carin terriers, and all the mixed breed housedogs that she had--thats where the money is.They are small, eat very little and many have good sized litters--most were CKC registered so their were no kennel inspections or anything like that. When you take in account that 50% of the population doesn't have room for a bigger dog and that 50% of whats left are women that don't want a bigger dog --then you can see that gundogs are not the way to get money unless your selling pups with big titles to hunters.
Eventually we plan to have only Britts,Springers,Goldens and Weims--even then its still not a smart money move---most kennels will stick to one breed with several females and one maybe two males---that makes much more money sense.
I have a lady on a waiting list for a golden pup out of my next litter--she went to many kennel and told me about a lady in Cookeville( I had already heard about her)--the lady has 30 females and 2 males--just enough registered with the AKC to avoid inspections and the rest are CKC--she couldn't even tell her which female the pups came from as they are all running toghether..thats going for money.
I really hope to get more people into our breeds because if you get outside the hunting/show circles--they are really getting some bad press.I have had 2 people try to give me fired up Brittany hunting dogs because of the problems they were having. They wanted to hunt on the weekends and have a family pet at the same time--both these owners had went for titles and didn't realize that they were getting hunting machines that they couldn't just let run loose.

[Havencrest Gundogs]

On the picture thing--We did all of those in one afternoon--the sitting thing is what my wife trains them to do --if they are on the leash, then they sit when we stop walking( she can't stand a dog jerking on her)--I'll get some pointing pics on there for the pointing breeds--it was lead them out and snap--..
I may start getting some OFA testing done soon--but like the OFA homepage says--you need to take in family history when breeding--even a dog with an excellant rating can throw bad pups--Its a good screening method and a tool I do plan to use.
I grew up raising dogs and have seen the paperswapping that goes on --makes me wonder how many are honest on their testing--not the OFA but the people who own the dogs. We went to a trade day when I was a teenager--this guy was trying to sell my dad a setter with an impressive pedigree--dad lifted the ear and saw his tatoo on the ear and those were not the papers that dad sold the dog with....I'm sure he sold it to someone but it wasn't us.
I've also seen people run across a grade dog that was great--next thing you knew the dog wasn't a grade dog anymore.
When I got the Bassets(they were AKC) off my Aunt--the first litter had had 2 pups with heart murmers--vet confirmed it and I told him that there was no relation according to the paperwork and his response was you've been at this long enough to know paper is paper. She now lives on 18 acres in KY and both pups were given to people I work with--they did grow out of it but it got them dam culled from breeding. I guess what I'm saying is that paper trails are subjective at best.

[Havencrest Gundogs]

Sorry to make so many post but it cuts me off if I go longer--
Breeding is an Honor system--always has been and will be until DNA testing gets better.
I hope everyone read the link on color-genectics on Britts --I figure it pissed a few off and hopefully enlighten a few.
I really didn't mean to get into these discussions on here---just to get feedback on the site not my dogs--

[rockllews]

For your site, I'd strongly recommend going with a white or much lighter background where your text is. Black is hard on eyes, and the red text doesn't help much. When designing sites, black backgrounds are one of the #1 things to avoid.


Nice kennels, by the way. What brand are they? They look similar to Behlen Country runs.

[Havencrest Gundogs]

They are AKC trade marked--written under that in small print is that they were manufactured by jewett-camaron companies--thanks for the tip on the color on backgrounds---Jeremy---I looked at your site also--very nice.

[natetnc]

On the picture thing--We did all of those in one afternoon--the sitting thing is what my wife trains them to do --if they are on the leash, then they sit when we stop walking( she can't stand a dog jerking on her)--I'll get some pointing pics on there for the pointing breeds--it was lead them out and snap--..

thats what i meant by "do them some justice", those pictures are what people will remember, imo you should have taken your time and snapped some real showcase photos of your dogs instead of mugshots. people will look at the parents to see what their dog will possibly look like in several years so they need to look as good as you can get em. first impressions are key, not too many women i would ask out based on drivers license pics, just saying representation is more important than a few extra days of web time.

the things i mentioned were not looking for explanations it was only to help you get a different perspective. explanations will not be available to anyone visiting your site, remember that, you want the best initial representation you can offer. imagine being interviewed each time someone visits your page.

[rockllews]

[quote="natetnc]explanations will not be available to anyone visiting your site, remember that, you want the best initial representation you can offer. imagine being interviewed each time someone visits your page.[/quote]

That is a good point!

Havencrest, thanks for the compliments. All this time, I thought that link was to my webdesign business site! Guess not....

[Ayres]

A black background isn't a website killer, it just needs to be done differently to provide a contrast that is readable but still easy on the eyes, which is harder to accomplish than with a lighter background as a starting point. In fact, for sites with a lot of photographs, I think a dark background is preferred. It allows the viewer to better focus on the photo and enhances the color depth. (Go look for movie trailers from the official studio websites and you'll find that most are portrayed with black or dark backgrounds) That's primarily why I like to keep my photo galleries in a javascript lightbox with a dark site cover behind them. It allows me to use a light background for informational purposes, with the benefits of a dark background exclusively when viewing photos.

One suggestion I'll make is to remove the photo of the tree as the background image. That picture has too much going on - it's too "busy" - and detracts from the purpose of your site, which is to convey the information you want people to know. Then choose colors that compliment each other. A red text over a picture of a sunset isn't a good compliment without at least a 1 pixel stroke on the text (but, of course, to get a 1px stroke you need to turn that text into an image, which increases load time). It's easier to just choose a font color that will provide enough contrast to make reading not strain the viewer's eyes.

As mentioned, get some clearer photos when you can, and consider dropping the photoshopped wooden picture frames. Putting those around all of your photos is going to become a hassle when updating, and again they detract from the purpose of the photo. Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for digitally framing a picture - it's just not necessary for every photo on your site.