In response to Wildrose and Don....:)

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In response to Wildrose and Don....:)

Post by WiskeyJaR » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:53 pm

Didnt want to "highjack" Richmond_Rod's post ....:P


Anyway in talking about the "Exotic breeds"
I agree about the hole "small gene pool" and plan on making sure of "good stock"....(heh,I admit Im one likes to be different heh)

I am looking more for a "friend to go hunting on weekends" with, and not so much a sharp show dog. Much respect for the really good "ABC" breeds out there...lots of hard work.
But Im more into "xyz" breed that is different...<shrugs>

As far as the Large Munsterlander as a hunting line....I have found a couple breeders claim to have a good drive...one here in oregon.
http://www.riversedgelm.com/
Im still "researching" as Im in no hurry to buy a pup just yet, as I do want to "be sure".

So just outa curiousity, what are some of the more "exotic" breeds folks have come across?....that actually hunt :wink:

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Post by WildRose » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:59 pm

Of the breeds you mentioned the munsterlander's small and large, as well as the Griff's are what I'd be looking at. None of them however are going to fare very well in temperatures over sixty degrees in comparison to the shorter/thinner haired breeds like the GSP.

One that is still something of an "odd ball breed" that is very much worth looking at particularly if you are interested primarily in upland work and waterfowling when it's not to cold are Vizsla's. I've seen quite a few VERY nice V's the last three years, more that I would be willing to own in the last year than I'd seen in the previous twenty or so.

Last weekend I judged three different Weim's that I felt wuold make very nice dogs as well in Jr/Sr hunter and in Puppy/ Derby stakes. Not necessarily dogs I wanted to own, but cerainly dogs with the "right stuff" to make good hunting companions for the "average guy".

CR
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Post by ezzy333 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:01 pm

I have seen a couple of nice Small Musterlanders.

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Post by hubweims » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:53 pm

i saw a portugese (sp?) pointer. Different kind of breed but I didn't get to see him hunt. the owners swore he and his breed are great afield. i own/hunt/love weims. if your dog is companion first and hunter second, i assure you that you will not find better companions than weims. you must have time to spend with them though. as far as hunting, i have hunted them on preserves and public land with gsp's, ep's, and brits without them being outhunted yet.

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Post by hubweims » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:54 pm

i will try to find a pic of a portugese pointer to post. they really are an attractive breed with tons of energy and seem to be relatively intelligent.

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Post by Windyhills » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:01 pm

Visla's are great home companions, but can get a big clingy and want to be with you all the time. Wouldn't consider one if you have any cold water work in mind either, but they seem to do OK for colder upland work. Some people put neoprene vests on them. I'd be careful in which line I took a dog from though, to insure it will hunt.

Griffons that I have seen have been very good home/hunting combo dogs as well. Griffs and Visla's both can require a bit of patience and a softer hand in training, something I think a newbie should consider.

People's training styles differ of course, but I tend to think it's easier to bring a long a dog with all kinds of drive, desire and natural ability--even if that means leaning on the dog a bit during training--than one that you have to show a lot of patience with and be more careful with in training.

One breed that might be of interest is the pudelpointer. Breeding has been carefully guarded to insure the hunting qualities are retained, so you don't have as much concern getting a dud as you might in some of the other rarer breeds. Several breeders out your way I believe.
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Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:02 pm

What struck me was not that the breeds were not those with a lot of choices for nice dogs, but rather that there were very disparate breeds. Some bigger, some smaller. Some pointing, some flushing. Some that will retrieve and some that aren't going to have a prayer. Take it FWIW.

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Post by hubweims » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:07 pm

another breed that has my interest is the boykin spaniel. these little fellas seem to do it all from what i have read about them. i haven't seen one in person, but have heard some really nice things about them.

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Post by Don » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:19 pm

I would be with Charlie on the Visla. In my opinion they are the best kept secret in pointing dogs for the foot hunter. As for any breeder telling you their dogs have good drive, What do you think they'll tell you. Our dogs stink but we're trying hard? if your really intrested, go to the breeder and have him put down a couple of his dogs for you. You pick the dogs he puts down first then allow him to show you what he has if he has better.

The weather around Sweet Home is not that severe and a Visla should have no problem with the possible exception of waterfowl if you lean that way. In which case, I've never used one but I would concider the Boykin strongly. I just hear to much good and very little negative. But one is a pointer and one a flushing/retriever.
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Post by CherrystoneWeims » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:38 pm

The weather around Sweet Home is not that severe and a Visla should have no problem with the possible exception of waterfowl if you lean that way. In which case, I've never used one but I would concider the Boykin strongly. I just hear to much good and very little negative. But one is a pointer and one a flushing/retriever.
Boykins are GREAT little dogs. But as Don said they are not a pointer. I haven't met one yet that didn't have a sweet personality. Boykins originated here in S.Carolina.

If you do decide on a Boykin please be sure that the breeder is PennHip screening. Boykins in the past had a high incidence of Hip Dysplasia. In fact the reason I started using PennHip instead of OFA is because of the Boykin breed. Boykin breeders used to use OFA but were getting no where in breeding for better hips. They then started using PennHip and have had tremendous improvement in the breed's hips over all.

Here is a link to Pam Kadlec's Boykin site.

http://www.boykinspaniel.com/bsshistr.html
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Post by GRIFF MAN » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:41 pm

WildRose wrote:Of the breeds you mentioned the munsterlander's small and large, as well as the Griff's are what I'd be looking at. CR

CR,

See I knew you were a closet GriffMan :P

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Post by lvrgsp » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:46 pm

A german Longhaired pointer, very interesting breed, look alot like a small munsterlander in my opinion.

Chip 8)

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Post by slistoe » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:47 pm

lvrgsp wrote:A german Longhaired pointer, very interesting breed, look alot like a small munsterlander in my opinion.

Chip 8)
The way I understand it the only difference between them is color.

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Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:04 am

There's an excellent breeder of Drahthaars in Caldwell, Idaho named Paul Trout. He has Vomorion kennels. I'd at least give he and his dog's a look. I have one and here is a story of an encounter she had Sunday.

"Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: A Most Amazing Story.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If many of you remember, this spring or last fall there was a thread on here that go me upset about sharpness in Draht's. This is the story of a most amazing encounter that addresses that.

I couldn't hunt Saturday, our Grouse opener because of work so bright and early Sunday a friend, my dog and I headed North. Saturday was a cooler day, but what the heck, it was time to hunt and the weather wasn't too hot. We hunted fruitlessly for several hours and when leaving one spot, met a government trapper coming in with two bear in culvert traps and two beaver in cages to let go. Interesting. That was the height of excitement for the day so far. That would change.

We hit a cover about 2:00 P.M. I like it the later the day gets because it's the perfect mix for grouse. 10-15 year Aspen, Evergreen, and a fine gravel road that bisects it. We started in and immediately the dog flushed one bird. I wasn't clear whether she bumped it, flushed it, or came in upwind of it.
We proceeded and an hour later, here came one very sorry looking two year old out of the woods with a face that resembled a well used pin cushion. The fella hunting with me absolutely loves that dog and there were tears in his eyes when he saw her.

She came up to me and I downed her on the road. I wouldn't go in the wood's without a leatherman and thank goodness, mine was handy. She had between 70 and 100 quills in her; nose, ears, chest, legs, and the inside of her mouth just loaded. I pulled the ears, nose, legs then rolled her over and opened her mouth. She lay quietly on her back, let me open her mouth and start pulling quills. She never whimpered, never whined, never tried to pull away, never tried to bite. She just lay there while I extracted 25-30 quills from the inside of her mouth. We then finished the hunt where she put in a fine preformance.

Back at home I discovered a tiny quill in the roof of her mouth I had missed. First thing this morning I took her to the vet's. Same deal. I layed her on the floor, opened her mouth, and the lady vet plucked three more quills out of the roof of her mouth. Again, she never tried to wiggle away, close her mouth, or bite. When we let her sit up the vet gave her a hug and got a big lick in return. She told me that in her entire life as a vet, she had never seen a dog that had such trust in people that she would submit like that with no anesthetic used. She couldn't believe it.

In a life time of dog's spanning nearly 50 years, part of that as a professional trainer, haveing trained numerous FC labradors and nearly every common sporting breed, I have never seen a performance like this one. There is no title that dog ever could win, no feat she could ever accomplish, that would make me any prouder of how she handled that de-quilling. I consider it a hugh testament to the breeder, Paul Trout of Vomorion Kennels in Caldwell, Idaho that he produces dogs with such outstanding ability and temperament. My hat is off to he and his outstanding kennel program. Thank You Paul. "

I have de-quilled many dogs in my lifetime and usually the legs, chest, and face, aren't a problem. The inside of the mouth always is. That's what made this so unusual. The dog quietly lay there with mouth open so the quills could be removed.
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Post by JessW » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:14 am

not sure of the original criteria, but when an unusual breed comes to mind for me, I think the Italian Spione (sp?). I personally don't know a lot about the breed but from what I understand, they are extremely loyal, laid back companions and hunt fairly close. With all that wiry hair, I would imagine that the cold would not be a big problem.

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Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:48 am

Thanks again folks, keep the info coming much appreiated :)

Gonehunting, thats an impressive dog, I've had a great dane I've had to dequil....calmness was not even in the dogs vocabulary heh.

JessW I have looked at the Italiano Spinone...is an interesting breed. Im a foot hunter so the "slower breeds" are good. Although them DD's sure are impressive.

With the job I have, I can keep dog with me 24/7....(helps to be the boss :P) So the "clingy" breeds such as Visla's wouldnt be much of a bother.

Boykins look "cute"...wife like 'em:/ As far as Pointer vs Flusher....umm guess this is where me "newbness" starts to show. I know what each does, but my qyestion is, for rabbit/upland hunting which one would usefulls?

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Post by Don » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:53 am

You throw in rabbit and I'm going with the flusher! The versitle dog guy's are gonna beat me up! :D
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Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:31 am

Will a flusher work on quail and phesents? Or do you need the Pointer?
I hunt both fur and feather, can use same dog right?


Have hunted for years kicking brush and tossin rocks, just never with a dog :lol:

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Post by WildRose » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:34 am

Flusher's can be just as effective as any pointing breed if you are only working small tight areas. However if you are hunting big rolling country the pointing breeds will save you hundreds of steps through the course of a day in the field.

For a flusher to be effective you have to keep the dog within gun range at all times.

With a properly trained pointing dog you can let them roll a long ways and still get there in time to shoot a bird. CR
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Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:03 pm

oh sure.....give me something ELSE to consider about what dog to get....<chuckles>
Being in the "Valley" I would probally want a close hunting dog due to the thicker cover.

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Post by WildRose » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:08 pm

Whiskey I do quite a bit of hunting in Eastern Oregon and western Idaho. With the exception of hunting valley quail in the thickest stuff I've seen there I would not say a flusher is going to be as effective as a good pointing dog for most of it. When you get out of the tightest places and start hunting the forest grouse, (Ruff/blue) as well as chukar and huns hands down the pointing dog is my preference. CR
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Post by Don » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:17 pm

Around Sweet Home there really isn't a lot of room for a pointer to do it's thing. Even in the valley, things are awful limited by private ownership. Unless he knows someone, phesants will be pretty much put and take at places like E.E.Wilson Area. If he goes east, he's got to go quite a ways for anything other than mountain grouse and quail. I think he's probably going to be better off with a flusher.
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Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:29 pm

I hae done gouse hunting in the nearby timber hills...limited success. Have access to a 6000 acre diary farm on banks of willamette, is where I do my brush kicking.
Dont get east of the mountains much...but have limited access to land in the "Indain ford" area north of sisters, never hunted there.

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Post by SteveB » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:15 pm

I have a DK and will probably get another, but if I ever considered a third it would be a Small Munsterlander or a Pointer ( I know, apples and oranges).
Steve

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Post by Don » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:32 pm

SteveB wrote:I have a DK and will probably get another, but if I ever considered a third it would be a Small Munsterlander or a Pointer ( I know, apples and oranges).
Steve
I love it and hope your not ofended but what your concidering for the third is like trying to decide between an old VW Bug and a Corvette! :D

I'm sorry, I just found it funny!
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Post by bean1031 » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:12 pm

Is a griff the same as a gwp?
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Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:19 pm

I think so...but then Im far from an expert.

I rember some one mentioning Pudelpointers, has anyone hunted with or seen one hunt?

Curious if Don or anyone else from Oregon has heard "Stonesthrow Pudelpointers"?

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Post by Don » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:42 pm

No. But if you punch in pudlepointer it'll get you a web for them. There's two breeders over by Bend. I met one and he was plesant.
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Post by WildRose » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:26 pm

I've trained a couple of PP's (pudel pointers) and hunted behind a few more. If I wanted a hairy versatile, the GWP and Griff's would be ahead of the PP's on my list. CR.
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Post by CherrystoneWeims » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:08 pm

WildRose wrote:I've trained a couple of PP's (pudel pointers) and hunted behind a few more. If I wanted a hairy versatile, the GWP and Griff's would be ahead of the PP's on my list. CR.
Mine too. But a GWP can be a lot of dog for a first time dog owner to handle.
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Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:11 pm

Pam,

Why aree they hard to handle? My experience has been the opposite and find them calmer and quieter than the most and just plain easy to work with.

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Post by CherrystoneWeims » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:16 pm

Quite a few of them that I have run into have been very people aggressive. And they haven't all been from the same kennel or lines.
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Post by mtlee » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:58 pm

bean1031 wrote:Is a griff the same as a gwp?
No....

GWP = German Wirehaired Pointer = Deutsch Drahthaar "DD" (for sake of simplicity)

WPG = Wirehaired Pointing Griffon = "Griff"

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Post by WiskeyJaR » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:15 pm

not trying to be arguementive...but what is the difference between the two breeds?

GWP / WPG

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Post by Gordon Guy » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:27 am

There's a huge variety in GWP's depending on the lines, they range from big slower moving dogs that don't get out of gun range to AKC trial competitors. Where as Griffons are more docile generally and don't range to the next county. I saw one that wouldn't go 10 feet from his owner but that could have been from the lack of training.

If I were you and just starting this "life style" I would think about a spaniel, Boykin or field bred English Cocker. They require the least amount of training as compared to a pointing dog. Just teach'em basic obedience and tak'em hunting as often as you can. Generally the English Cockers are calmer and in my opinion turn into excellent hunting dogs with little training.
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Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:54 am

Just teach'em basic obedience and tak'em hunting as often as you can.
This is what we spend 99% of out time doing with any dog. I have always felt just the opposite about flushing dogs compared to pointers. IMO the hardest dog to train is the Springer. A good dog has to have a great desire to find a bird and then catch it in some manner. A pointer will naturally point and wait for you to flush while the flusher will go full bore into the bird trying to catch it. And all of this with the flusher has to happen while in gun range. There lies the rub. A dog that has "catching a bird" as its number one objective and then you decide it has to sit and wait for you. These two objectives are just not compatible and consequently are a real challange to train. Some of the slower working flushers are easier to keep up with and need little training to hunt over so I think it all comes back to you and your dog.

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Post by Gordon Guy » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:27 am

If you teach all the finer points to a spaniel like "Hup" when a bird is flushed, stop to flush and shot, sit when offering up the bird, hand signals then I'm sure they can be every bit as challenging as a pointer. But for a generalist "Meat dog" and I say that with all due respect, when all you want is a dog to find game for you and be your buddy, to heck with the niceities, than a flushing dog suits most folks, IMO.

The reason I didn't suggest a Springer is because they can be quite a handfull for most folks. That's why the suggestion of a field bred English Cocker.

As an example, with pointing dogs for the first year or so you shouldn't shoot birds that are flushed. Some folks will never shoot accidently or purposely flushed birds. And most would never think about shooting a rabbit in front of their pointing dog. But with a flushing dog, who cares! More game in the vest! You have to decide what your priorities are. The asetitics of a beautifully trained Pointing dog where shooting the bird is secondary, but without the kill, there's no purpose. Or a few birds and or rabbits for sunday dinner. Again my Opinion
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Post by WiskeyJaR » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:41 am

I agree with Gordon Guy,Im looking more for a all around "meat dog". Not looking for a dog that is waving from 2 fields over pointing at some rabbit or quail telling me "hurry up, here he is" (Pictures his dog pulling out a deck of cards and playing piiacle with the prey while he waits for me to catch up) har har
I currently hunting by kicking brush and tossing rocks in the cover hoping to spook something up. So a dog that would be my own 'rock" would proably be the better type.

Sure like the looks of the WPG though, is there a "wirehaired" spaniel?


Again folks, thanks to all for the info.

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Post by Don » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:11 am

With the flushing breeds, control is everything. You either keep it in gun range or watch birds fly off. Generally speaking, they don't have the wheels that pointing breeds do so you might end up with a dog just out of gun range, which is useless. Not that hard to keep them in. It's the hard agressive charge that put's the bird in the air. Without it you risk a bird running off. If you watch game birds going about normal business without any pressure, they walk about 90+% of the time. If they are pressured a bit, or believe they are, they either squat down and hide or run off. If you have them at the edge of cover, they either hide or flush. They seldom head out for a foot race, with a dog, in the open where they are easy game for a hawk. Birds are at times caught out in the open but are prone to running off if your quite a ways off or simply flush to cover. They don't lie down in an open field to hide. That's why we hunt the cover instead of the mowed field. it has appeared to me that given enough cover, the birds first inclination is to hide. If the cover is so heavy as to slow the pointing dog down, it'll likely bust more birds than it will point. At that time a flusher is more productive than a pointer, unless you want your pointer to flush.

They will not squat down for long when a dog gets to close, they'll either run off or if pushed hard will flush. That's why a flusher needs to pressure a game bird. A pointer doesn't put that much pressure on the bird and hold's it. The bird seems to feel it safe as tho the dog is there, it's stopped. The dog learns how close it can get without flushing the bird and point's. The more ridgid the point the better the bird holds. The dog give's the bird any indication it's discovered, the bird flush's. The bird is usually already aware of it's persents and it's first reaction is to hide. What most birds seem to realize about dogs is that they can't out run them if they are close. So they flush. If they do choose the foot race, it's because they are in cover they can't flush well from. The they run to a hole and if the dogs still there, flush.

My understanding about cockers is that they were not origionally flushing dogs, they were called "cocking" dog's. When they found birds, they'd hit the ground and the hunter threw a net over the dog and the birds. Not a lot unlike what a pointing dog does. As I understand it that's where the term cocker came from.

It's my theory that birds are hesitant to flush because air born preditors are more dangerious to them than foot preditors. If up think some birds might be getting ready to flush wild on you, throw a wide brim hat over the covey, that will usually put them down. They seem to think it's a hawk.
They have little chance with a hawk if they leave the ground. On the ground the blend in and the hawk is up against it.
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Post by Gordon Guy » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:40 am

At one time Springers/Cockers were born from the same litter. The smaller dogs being called Cockers and the larger were called Springers. The smaller dogs were used to hunt (flush) Woodcock (the European version) which live in thick cover. The smaller dogs could get around easier. I believe that's where the name came from. Then at some point they separated into their own breed.
Tom

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Post by WiskeyJaR » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:36 pm

har....I know...Ill get one each, flusher and pointer. Hunt them as a combo...<chuckles>

SteveB

Post by SteveB » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:59 pm

Don wrote:
SteveB wrote:I have a DK and will probably get another, but if I ever considered a third it would be a Small Munsterlander or a Pointer ( I know, apples and oranges).
Steve
I love it and hope your not ofended but what your concidering for the third is like trying to decide between an old VW Bug and a Corvette! :D

I'm sorry, I just found it funny!
Yeah Don, I know. There is something about SM's that I am drawn to but I grew up with pointers and someday will have another. I hope the pointer guys aren't offended by you calling thier dogs "old VW Bugs" :lol:
Steve

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Post by WiskeyJaR » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:14 pm

ok after much reading and consideraion...decided to go with the flusher type breeds. As most my hunting is brush beating already.
Now comes the question on "what flusher breed". Im thinking along lines of the bigger springer types then the smaller cocker types.
Will be hunting rabbit/pheasant and anything else "eatable", as Gordon Guy said, looking for all 'round meat dog.

Has any one hunted with a Boykin before?

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Post by Don » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:28 pm

www.boykinspanielsociety.com. Very nice site they have there.
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Post by CherrystoneWeims » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:44 pm

Has any one hunted with a Boykin before?
Wiskey,

The official dog of my state!! 8)

I would suggest that you contact the Boykin Spaniel Society if you are interested. You can also contact Pam Kadlec. She has written several books about the breed.

Here is a link to help get you started on your research into Boykins.

http://www.boykinspaniel.com/bsshistr.html

The trainer that I work with breeds and trains Boykins. I have watched him train them several times over the years that I have known him. I have watched my neighbors hunting over their Boykin but have never hunted over one myself.

BEWARE-- Be sure that health clearances are done on both parents and that you buy from a reputable breeder. The Boykin breed has had a history of high incidence of Hip Dysplasia. They have made great strides in combatting this by using PennHip screening.
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Post by WiskeyJaR » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:07 pm

Thanks for all the info folks, :)
Lots of good points.

Another question....(no they never stop :P)
Hybrids....dont kick me off the forum just yet (heh)
was curious and thoughts of x-breeds?

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Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:48 pm

WiskeyJaR wrote:Thanks for all the info folks, :)
Lots of good points.

Another question....(no they never stop :P)
Hybrids....dont kick me off the forum just yet (heh)
was curious and thoughts of x-breeds?
Well, if you're thinking that you can put together two breeds and get the best qualities of both, you'll be sadly disappointed.

Greg J.

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Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:40 pm

WiskeyJaR wrote:Will a flusher work on quail and phesents? Or do you need the Pointer?
I hunt both fur and feather, can use same dog right?


Have hunted for years kicking brush and tossin rocks, just never with a dog :lol:
Again, I'll say the Draht when you throw in fur too. They point rabbit and squirrel wonderfully and can track like a bloodhound.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:48 pm

I'm kind of catching up on this thread. I assume you rule out the springer because it's common? If so, that's too bad because they are truly wonderful dog's to work with. Control is everything with a flusher. Repeat that to yourself 1000 times then tattoo it on your forehead. You know those times out in the field you hear a dog referred to as "Here You SOB"? Those are those close working flushing dogs working 100 yards ahead of their owners and finding every bird in the field. They have to work at 20 yards of you're in trouble. If they start a bird at 20 and take off on the track, you better be fast or able to sit or hup the dog, or that bird's going up a LOOOOOOOOOOOOng way away.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Post by WiskeyJaR » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:03 pm

I got to admit...sure like the looks of a DD :)

I think I've got my choice narrowed down to roughly 4...

Boykin Spaniel
Field spaniel
Deutsch Drahthaar
Pudelpointer

I was hessatent on the spaniel for that reason...too common...but I do like the way this guys seem to hunt...<shrugs>

I afraid it might come down to size of me wallet as to which one I actually get :/

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