Who is the best GSP ever??????

[Sonny Hawkins]

Dont mean to offend anyone, But my choice of a shorthair stands POINTED with a High Head! SONNY Look at SNIPS, thats what Iam talking about. :roll: :roll: :roll: I will go to the limit and say, If your shorthair does not have a HIGH HEAD on POINT maybe you need to intergrate a little more ENGLISH POINTER which has been around sence the 1600 hundreds. :roll: :roll: :roll: Sonny

[bird]

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[Sonny Hawkins]

Hey BIRD, Dont know about your dogs style, But from your post he dont have a high head. I said before, didnt mean to offend anyone Iam just stating facts of what the world wants in this day and age. One half of the fun of hunting your dog in how he or she looks on POINT. I guess it depends whether you want to perfect your dog or you are just hunting.-- Sorry SONNY

[Don]

Sonny,

Been meaning to ask you about your avatar dog. What's the deal? By the way, I checked on that pup you liked. It was sold. But he does have a few more. Males $500 females $600.

And if anyone is intrested, I had BBQ halibut for dinner tonight and my brown hens are really out laying my white hens bad! :roll:

[bird]

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[Sonny Hawkins]

HEY DON Thanks for checking on the pup, Now whats that you want to know about SLICK? He is almost HUMAN and if he wasent asleep, Ied let him talk to you in person, He's that GOOD. :roll: :roll: :roll: SONNY

[bird]

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[Sonny Hawkins]

BIRD, A well breed dog should HUNT, The other part of the hunt should be obediance and style, Its alot more fun that way. :roll: SONNY

[bird]

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[Sonny Hawkins]

HEY BIRD Sounds like you have a good handle on your type hunting. Keep up the good work. Sorry if I said to much. Friend SONNY

[grant]

Who do you guys and gals think has been the best GSP ever????? Explain your reasoning. DO NOT JUST THROW OUT A NAME PLEASE. I am just curious to read your answers. Thanks

Probably Bell or Kage.

[Sonny Hawkins]

I am not saying that the gsp and ep cross is still going on. What my point was that the Germans were not satisfied with their origional so they bred to some FINE ENGLISH POINTERS. Thats what my AKC book says. FACT SONNY

[grant]

Sonny, put a real dog in your avitar... What's that long tailed thing???

[bird]

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[Sonny Hawkins]

HEY GRANT, Babe is bred to Walnuthill FRITZ, But when you get a dog with the IQ of SLICK and being a EP, It just dont get any better. Wont be long, youll see him in USA Today. Sonny

[Sonny Hawkins]

HEY BIRD, To answer your question about the EP retrieve. SLICK was trained to retreive at WALNUT HILL KENNEL and he is very Quick to do it. Better than most. Sonny

[Sonny Hawkins]

Hey Grant, Where did you go? Guess you got your self some cookies and milk and went to bed Ha Ha Talk to you later. :roll: :roll: :roll: Sonny

[lvrgsp]

Ted, As much as I hate to say it, I would go to say that somewhere someone has a pure pointer blood dna as a shorthair litter.

Chip

[Sonny Hawkins]

Where do you think that would be? Read the HISTORY!

[Margaret]

I am not saying that the gsp and ep cross is still going on. What my point was that the Germans were not satisfied with their origional so they bred to some FINE ENGLISH POINTERS. Thats what my AKC book says. FACT SONNY

Of course there is Pointer way back in the history of the breed.
Lots of other breeds too. GSP didn't just happen, they were developed.

[Margaret]

The very best GSP is many; they are the ones that people love and will remember all their lives.

[ezzy333]

What seems so odd to me is the pointer people who talk about the English pointer being used in other breeds as though that makes them superior. They never mention the English pointer of that day would be a distant releative at best of the pointer of today. Our pointers are completely different dogs than the English Pointer. They don't even look alike. All I can say is the English Pointer was used to develop many breeds including the Pointer we all know.

Ezzy

[scott townsend]

[quote="TrueBlu Shorthairs"]parshal, my comment about NAVHDA was pretty much tongue in cheek. However, I've seen far too many NAVHDA folks degrade dogs that weren't used for blood tracking, doing 200 yard blinds, cornering hogs, etc. I have yet to see a trial person who degrades another's game other than NSTRA. Sorry just had to say that.

Blake , I have pretty much givin up posting on these forums, too many internet experts for me, so I mostly just read and don't comment. But of all these forums I read you are one of the few trial peoeple that I see that continually belittles/condemns the other formats.
This thread is pretty obviously pointless , though somewhat intesting to read some of the history on some of the great dogs from years past, coming from people that actually new the dog and the handlers/trainers.

[bondoron]

So Sonny thinks the best GSP of all time is the EP? Where is Ross he should have a big smile on his face.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Sorry Scott, if I personally have little respect for NSTRA. Most of the dogs are half trained bumpers who get points for running birds down, but are so-called pointing dogs. Most of the dogs are so close working they couldn't be effective on wild birds if their lives depended on it. NSTRA grounds are little baby fields that are nothing like most bird hunting I have ever seen. I know it's the game you play so you are sensitive to comments about the organization. Dogs trained to the stage that most well bred dogs are thru natural ability isn't the most impressive. I do not belittle AKC Master Hunter dogs, but think JH is a joke. I do not belittle NAVHDA, only the people who think their game is the only one around worth playing. Trials are not for everyone. I turn down most buyers, I am not trying to sell anyone on the game I play. In fact, I have said many times that if one does not hunt wild birds, then his dog is half a dog. True of trial champions also.

Why have you bred to field trial dogs if you are truly of the opinion that NSTRA is the dog to own?

[Don]

We could start a new thred with this subject and accopmlish nothing. True Blu makes some great points that I think a lot of people share but are unwilling to admit. I have played both NSTRA and AKC and both have some really serious faults,,,,in my opinion. And I don't think either are about dogs. They are about egos!
The dogs really don't care if you play either game, they just want to go. The dogs don't care if you win or lose, they just want their turn. The dogs don't even care if you bestoe a title on them, they just want part of your lunch.

[scott townsend]

parshal, my comment about NAVHDA was pretty much tongue in cheek. However, I've seen far too many NAVHDA folks degrade dogs that weren't used for blood tracking, doing 200 yard blinds, cornering hogs, etc. I have yet to see a trial person who degrades another's game other than NSTRA. Sorry just had to say that.

Sorry Scott, if I personally have little respect for NSTRA. Most of the dogs are half trained bumpers who get points for running birds down, but are so-called pointing dogs. Most of the dogs are so close working they couldn't be effective on wild birds if their lives depended on it. NSTRA grounds are little baby fields that are nothing like most bird hunting I have ever seen. I know it's the game you play so you are sensitive to comments about the organization. Dogs trained to the stage that most well bred dogs are thru natural ability isn't the most impressive. I do not belittle AKC Master Hunter dogs, but think JH is a joke. I do not belittle NAVHDA, only the people who think their game is the only one around worth playing. Trials are not for everyone. I turn down most buyers, I am not trying to sell anyone on the game I play. In fact, I have said many times that if one does not hunt wild birds, then his dog is half a dog. True of trial champions also.

Why have you bred to field trial dogs if you are truly of the opinion that NSTRA is the dog to own?

You make statements like the above.
And yet you accuse the NSTRA org of running down other venues.As I stated earlier. Blake you look down on any format that isn't the one you run.You try to belittle anyone that does not run the HB circuit.In your own mind it is the only game out there. You condamn every other format out there. For who knows what reason you seem to zero in on the NSTRA. You speak of a subject you have little to no knowledge of.
This isuue is way off the subjuct of the thread,don't care to discuss it much more.

[bondoron]

NAVHDA has nothing to do with chasing deer, blood tracking, cornering hogs, or any of the other things that have been posted. Here is the web address
http://www.navhda.org/ . It also has nothing to do with teaching a dog to attack, fly, dance, talk, or most other things that might be brought up next. :roll:

[gr_elliott]

It also has nothing to do with teaching a dog to attack, fly, dance, talk, or most other things that might be brought up next.

so your telling me I can stop working on the dance routine for the UT test? wish i would have known this months ago

[bird]

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[ezzy333]

The above posts are perfect examples of everyone trying to tell everyone else why their games are better than any other. Fact is it isn't true. There is no evidence that anyone can point to that says dogs playing one game are better than the others. For a matter of fact, the dogs abilities are not what are being judged normally but rather how the dog is trained. The past history of all of the breeds today show that the dogs were hunting dogs but today we have broadened their use to what is commonly called Sporting Dogs.

It makes no difference to me what Tru Blu, Bondoron, Sonny, or any other individual thinks of any venue as he knows no more about them than any one else. All he has stated is his opinion. Each and everyone of us has an equally good opinion even though we may not have felt it necessary to tell everyone. I fully realize few if any of you share my opinion so what difference does it make. As an example I do not train for a JH test. In my opinion the JH test is the one test that judges the dog if we treat it like it was intended and the SH and MH judge more the trainer. There probably isn't anyone on here that would agree with me and that is fine. I have many other opinions that I have found to be true but many of you wouldn't agree with them either, for you see our opinions are based on our likes and dislikes and may not be based on fact or at best only partially

All I am trying to say a thread like this one was interesting till everyone had to start telling us everything other than what was asked. What any of you think about a certain venue or what breeds were used to develop someother breed has no bearing on what the thread is about. I think at this point the thread might as well be locked as no one is learning anything about great GSP's and why you felt they were great.

Lets get back on track or it will be shut down.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Bird, IMHO and from hunting wild birds for forty years, it's a tie with three dogs, Scott Bodenstab's FC NASDC Gertrude's Blue Brandi, Brandi, my FC AFC J and K's Baron York Von Greif, and my grandad's old shorthair, Cal, bought from Johnny Merrell. Can't speak for any dog I have never hunted over though.

Scott, I only pick on NSTRA 'cause what I said is true IMO. You'd better start breeding to these famous NSTRA champions and stop breeding to all the FCs out there, you're making my point for me quickly. WHERE did I say that NSTRA runs down other organizations? Who would they run down, the Junior hunter show dogs? Dogs run around a 40 yard field, bumping/chasing, and getting points for it, just ain't my deal. I do not run down every organization or venue I don't run, I just think NSTRA isn't the most impressive and that JH is a joke. MH, SH, ABHA, NBHA, NAVHDA all have very positive traits. Other than keeping people involved and active with their dogs, can't really see that NSTRA does much positive.

Bondoron, for God's sake, NAVHDA is great for those who love it. I am ALL for doing something with one's dog. However, I have seen far too many NAVHDA people on these boards tell those of us who trial that we are not doing what our shorthairs were intended for, that if our dogs aren't used for ducks 50% of the time then we're off base, that if our dogs aren't used for tracking and trailing that we are ruining the breed. I absolutely support their right to play their game and use their dogs the way THEY see fit. However, I also have that right, simple as that.

[nrcgsp]

This is a loaded question with NO answer! There are many greats and that special one to us all. I lost one who I thought was one of the best, but had a short life, so didn't get to prove to as many as he did to me! That was NFC/FC/Reg.Ch/NRC'S Magnum's Touch of Gold, he left with me more than any other had and maybe ever will, but boy we are having fun with the ones we have now! However, early on Jerry mentioned a female who will be inducted to the Hall of Fame in the Fall. I had the great pleasure of knowing this dog, being friends with her owners and trainers, and she has a record that is amazing. Not only did she win the GSPCA futurity, but then placed the following March in the NGSPA futurity (and her littermate won it), she finished her FC title, became NSDC, 2 X NGSPA top producing dam of the year, in her get, grand-get and great-grand get she has produced the following titles and/or placements
70 in nationals (ngspa,gspca, ngpda, etc.); 87 regionals, 23 nat'l, regional derby classics and futurity; 27 Species, 49 FC/AFC titles, and 27 dog of the year titles, and that list continues to grow now. That was quite an accomplishment for a dog who loved to be "loved" and ride in the FRONT of the truck. Heide HO Pinehurst may have been one of the best gsp not for what she won, but what she produced. Again, it is an opinion, but she has quite the record for backing.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Mag had some impressive wins, Nancy, but he was just one of those dogs that always ran well, found birds, had huge power, was always an AA dog and was great looking. Don't know about THE best, but what an awesome dog!!

[nrcgsp]

Thanks Blake, and I would agree with you that he wasn't "THE BEST", he wasn't close to what Slick, Heide or many others did. He was the best for me especially more in that "compainion" side, etc. I am not a person who thinks my dog is the best no matter what! While I want them to be and believe me, my dogs mean as much to me as Randy (just don't tell him, well he probably knows that already ha ha ha ha ) but I am one who if there are dogs better, they are better! Although, it would be awesome to have one of those Slicks, Heides, Rustys, etc. one day! We are working on it!

[Razor]

You know I just wanted to know who you think is the best GSP. We all do not have to agree. There is no clear winner. In my opinion I think that the best dog is Tonelli's Rising Sun. Sonny was bounced around from handler to handler and he still won. I think that if he was left with Terry, he would have won alot more than he did. He was a huge powerful dog that could run with any dog (of any breed) in the country. That is why I like him. I have talked in length with all of his handlers. I have been told story after story of this great animal. You all have your opinions and I have mine. I wanted to hear your opinions. This was not intended to start a fight in any means. I know that some of the top GSP people in the country lurk here. I was after their opinions. Thanks to every one that tried to answer the question. I hope to meet many of you in Eureka this year.

[snips]

I don't like to steer off course, BUT.... Blake, it seems every board you are on, somehow there ends up being a NSTRA vs FT discussion.... I have done both, and enjoy both "games". That being said, I have to say something else, I have done NSTRA since the 80's and have seen most of the top contenders, even owned a couple, and I want to say that the dogs that ARE the top NSTRA dogs are only a level of training and the difference of where the birds are planted different. The majority of top contenders are also broke to steady to wing, and if you think all of the fields we run in are "baby fields", you really don't get out much. If you think NSTRA dogs do not run, you do not get out much...You train dogs to run to the front and take edges, we train them to stay within the field we are running and find birds. And please do not tell me NSTRA dogs do not run enough to hunt behind. If the judges rode with a dog in AKC, wonder how many NC's would never have won because the judge saw some infraction they did not otherwise see. I happen to like the fact that a judge rides with a dog, because he will see the entire piece of work, hopefully, in FT'S, the dog did not bump a bird, chase it down and (heaven forbid ) point it, after all, many dogs are "found on point", no one knows how they got there. NSTRA is a super FT for people that want to train their own dog, run it, and shoot for it, to compete in. I could run a GSP in the south in the 80's and if my dog did the work, I could win. And, one more thing, a dog does not get points for bumping and chasing birds, that shows your knowledge of the game. I am not running down FT's, I enjoy them and want to run more, I am saying that there is NO PERFECT GAME, it all takes a good dog and some good luck on his side.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Brenda, I know you love shoot to retrieve, but when did they change the rule, if a bird is pointed, the bird flies, the dog runs it down and retrieves it, the dog DOESN'T get points? Always been that way. I've been to three NSTRA events and each was run on very small acreage, Smith's twice and one west of Denton. The grounds were around 40 to 60 acres, that is TINY in my view. The dogs tracked along the 4 wheeler track and there is where they found birds.

In AKC horseback stakes, dogs are in the judges sight 75% of the time per the rules. Yes, dogs can be chasing birds and it not be seen. Judges do go with dogs. Please remember I have judged around 40 stakes in AKC.

I did not say NSTRA dogs do not run enough to be hunted behind. I did say that a 40 acre field is not like any hunting we do in Texas on wild birds. But, Texas NSTRA events are run on small parcels.

NSTRA is fine for the reasons you said, but to try to compare the dogs in both venues just isn't close Brenda.

Granted, I haven't done both, attended a few NSTRA events and finished two FCs and one AFC myself. Have only one score in Master Hunter in a couple of tries, one dog was birdless. I have far more respect for breeding purposes in dogs that cover ground with speed, and are fully broke. To each his own.

Razor, I think with the wins of so many other winning dogs your Sonny opinion is gonna be hard to prove out.

[snips]

Blake, it is just irritating that there are and have been many FT people on this board from the start and you have to be the one to run something down. I am sure there are more people that feel the way you do and just do not feel the need to say it. There are things I don't care for, but no body knows what they are because I do not feel the need to play different venues down. I hope you feel better after letting everyone know your feelings on NSTRA. We are all very enlightened from the expert.

[Sonny Hawkins]

Way to go BRENDA, You took the words out of my mouth. No you dont get points if your dog bumps a BIRD. If your dog points you get points. If you miss the pointed bird and your dog runs it down then you get points for a retrieve. A few real BIRD HUNTERS formed NSTRA years ago just to have fun in the off season. And believe it or not or like it or not its still here and going STRONG. :roll: Sonny Thoes dogs named SONNY are bound to be good.

[stonegripper]

Clown is a leading sire folks. But, was bred to around a zillion times. Any dog producing thousands of pups is going to produce some FCs and NFCs if pups are put in the right hands. Percentages are what count!! Rusty produced far more in percentage terms and Slick most likely more than Rusty, again, in percentage

terms.

I am not really a Clown fan, but let's be real...bred a zillion times, producing thousands of pups. No wonder Paltani quit running dogs!

Lots of good one's out there and lots of opinions...

[bird]

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[stonegripper]

Yep, those AF girls look good! Especially the Nurses. You Army guys are never real particular though

Poor old Clown...he gets blamed over and over just caused everybody wanted their girl to love him.

Thanks, Bird. Have a good one!

[bird]

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[stonegripper]

Bird,
Just spread your love like Clown. Trublu claims he was bred a Zillion times. I remember when Clown was popular in the mid to late 90's, Paltani was getting $600 a stud fee. I am no math guy...but that's $600 Zillion!

By the sounds of your Army days and those Air Force women, you ought to get at least a dollar or two

Back to topic: Rockin Rollin Billy still gets my vote. Many have been great ones, he's just my personal favorite.

I can always count on a fellow Iowegian to keep it going

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[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Stone, I would have thought most would have known I was being slightly facetious when I said "a zillion" times. However, I would bet the thousand pups is pretty close. If he were bred to 2 times per week for 3 years, that would be 104 breedings for 3 years or 312 litters. Average litter size of 6 pups, would be just over 1800 pups.

[stonegripper]

[quote]

Amen!

[Hotpepper]

It is easy to say that he was bred a lot, maybe a much as Rusty was.

Pepper

[bird]

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