Who is the best GSP ever??????

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:50 pm

Like Dave I've been lurking on this thread.

How do you define the best?

Well that's typically defined by what you do with your own dogs. Obviously field trial people have a particular set of things they consider. Extremes of performanc under judgment, ease of training to a high level, and consistency of performance (Ie. Dogs that not only had great days but many of them by winning in multiple venues) are certainly one measure of a dog.

NAVHDA people of course would base their opinion on how individuals perform (and their offspring) in their chosen venue.

DK people seem to be hung up on the idea that maintaining a "german standard" somehow gives you a better performing dog in the US, which simply cannot be shown. The only place DK's and americanized GSP's compete head to head with any regularity is NAVHDA yet the top producing sire in the history of NAVHDA is a GSP bred right out of great field trial lines.

These three groups aside the majority of GSP's are simply family gun dogs. What defines to most people owning them is completely different from how those competitors evaluate a dog.

They want a dog that with minimal training makes a passable birddog, retrieves well naturally, one that is good with the kids, enjoys playtime, and minds well in the house.

Of course that makes for a bunch of criteria that can't necessarily be quatititively analyzed.

I hunt/guide/train for a living and we've had GSP's since 69. Without a doubt the dogs that have been best suited to these criteria came primarily from Dixieland's Rusty offspring and to a lesser degree from old Greif lines.

Of course if you look at the measureable performances in trials and hunt tests, you see that the same lines produced and still do a large portion of the top performing dogs we still have in the breed today.

Whether I want to compete in a trial, take a group duck hunting, take a group quail hunting, or head up north and west for pheasant, chukar, huns, or chickens dogs from these same lines continue to perform exceedingly well.

As for the superiority of dogs in years past? Spend thirty or more years in the breed and then you will have a measuring stick. Over all we certainly have much better dogs today within the breed than we ever imagined possible thirty plus years ago when we were looking at "The Best".

The fact that the breed continues to dominate while the standards are contiually raised for what makes a "good dog" definitely shows that the breed on the whole gets better with each generation. CR

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:57 pm

SO, BOTTOM LINE, The BEST GSP is the one laying at your feet.--Sonny

THE END. PS. How about the BEST English Pointer EVER? Just kidding

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:05 pm

Dave, the titles trekker has that impress me most are Dual champion, Amateur Field champoin, Master Hunter, tracking dog excellent, but the Versatile Companion Dog 3 must have been pretty hard to get and even though it is not what we like it is a accomplishment and showed this dog could be trained to do almost anything. I am sure the dogs you listed are great dogs and accually would be what I look for in a dog. I don't look for show stuff when I search for a dog but the big one missing in the dogs you posted would be the DC title. I personally could care less (and probably the reason in my first post I did not say trekker) but if we are looking at the best the DC would be there for alot of people. I am sure this added to the reason trekker was put into the Hall of Fame. You just can't down play a dog accomplishments cause it had some titles that you don't nessarily care about.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:10 pm

Dave,
I figured you and one other member here would be on shortly after DK was typed. First it has been explained to you and others many times why there are some non FCI dogs in some of the DK pedigrees. I don't care what the testing was at least dogs were and are held to a standard, unlike American dogs. Like I said I DON'T have a problem with GSP's I have one. I do have a problem with people bad mouthing DK's and either not knowing the story or not caring because they are right. Apparently if I don't say FT dogs are God then I am an idiot. :roll:

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:17 pm

Ron,

Slow down a bit; my last post had nothing to do with GSP vs DK.

You were the one to say that the average dog from 100 years ago was better than the average dog today. You say it's because every dog was tested. Do you know this for a fact? I'm not so sure that's completely accurate in 1907. Also, what kind of judges and judges’ education do you think there was in 1907?

I understand that there are non-FCI dogs in DK pedigrees. But you and the rest of the DK movement can't have it both ways; you can't say that the DK is superior or that every dog in every generation is tested when it's not true. You can't say that the dogs from a century ago were better because they were tested, but then say you don't care what the tests were.

You believe in a theory; that's great. But you've got to have tangible facts to back up your theory. In theory the DK format should be producing far superior animals. Do they? How can you prove it?

You’ve got to understand that if we run an AKC GSP and a DK in a VJP test, and the GSP scores a perfect score and the DK scores a Prize III, the theories behind the DKV see the DK as the superior dog, even though it is not capable of Prize I work. That is completely antagonistic and counter-intuitive to the entire American Experience. As a result, and time you bring up the German testing format among American performance hunting dog enthusiasts you’re going to be swimming upstream.

I'm a believer in results far more than theory. I'm not about to say that the "best GSP" HAS to be a trial dog. If you set aside your emotions and read what I say about trialing here in the US you'll find while I am a participant, I'm also a pretty big critic.

Dave

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:52 pm

Ron, who put Rusty or Clown at the head of any pack exactly? Clown won three straight National AA championships but has not proven to be much of a producer. Rusty had to be taught to point and Husser barely finished the dog, yet he has produced many many outstanding dogs and his lineage is still making an impact. Please don't give us the "original intent" argument. Model T's are not the cars we drive today. We don't live in Germany. We are not living in 1855. We have progressed, 'nuff said.

Trialers DO NOT tell anyone they must buy their dogs. NAVHDA folks seem to believe that if a dog doesn't run deer for miles the dog isn't worth owning. It is illegal in many states for dogs to run deer, in fact, in most states I hunt.

The beauty of the modern day GSP is that anyone can find a dog to his liking. Close working, underfoot, big running, lots of style, 9 o'clock tail(why, I don't know), but there is a dog for anyone out there. It ain't necessarily a trial bred dog, but it could be. For me, a dog that ranges 200 yards is a close worker.

Now, for best, there is NO best. No one person can define best, but in his own view. I own two Field Champions, and one Amateur Field Champion, put all the points on them. I duck hunt both, both will track, will kill fur, but are great on wild quail, which is what I hunt. Therefore, I purchased dogs from western trial winners as those dogs produce dogs I like. BEST????? Billy, Quill, Sabby, Slick, but that is MY opinion. No one else's possibly.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:00 pm

I suspect that what ezzy ment was that the european dogs are generally more methodical while the american bred dogs are more ,,,,speed. I have watched a number of both and generally speaking the european dogs lack the quickness and the range of american dogs. Either good or bad depending on your preference.

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:10 pm

Why are you talking about the best GSP ever, when a gsp has yet to win the TRUE NATIONAL TITLE at AMES. Each year they put the cream of the crop of the pointer world into a three hour FT and have never in 100 yrs has a GSP even came close to winning. Setters and Pointers have both won but never the GSP, why is that?

Sorry just rattling the cage a litte. GSP's RULE!!!

CW

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:33 pm

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote: Please don't give us the "original intent" argument.

NAVHDA folks seem to believe that if a dog doesn't run deer for miles the dog isn't worth owning.

I give up. If people want to put words in my mouth then whatever. All I said was I would go with a versatile as the best dog, and I get attacked. Also if people want to stick with the myths then fine. I do have to say that NAVHDA folks wanting to run deer for miles with their dogs could very well be the dumbest thing I ever heard. :roll: I don't agree with certain dogs and what some do with them. I however will not attack people for their choices. If what you do, and your dogs make you happy I think that is great. But don't come out and try to attack systems that you don't believe in or know about.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:10 pm

Well biys and girls I did not want to start such an uproar. I love GSP's and wanted to see who you thought was the best in your own eyes. That was the original intent. By the way Wall do not start the Ames crap on here. When those boys give a GSP a chance one will win.

heck Sonny could not get a fair shake when he destroyed pointers hands down. A pointer boy will never give a shorttail a fair shake. I could care less what you all think about that. You know it is the truth.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:18 pm

Wall, the guidline set for the ames judging would pretty much prevent a docked tail dog from ever winning. This is becoming a pointer only trial and pretty soon there won't be any setters there either. I don't know if there is any gsp's that could be competive at ames but we will never know for sure. Now, quit stirring the pot.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:41 pm

My AKC book on all breeds of dogs says the germans were not satisfied with the orgional shorthair so Fine english Pointers were used to improve stance,style, and nose, also high head. The first shorthair was admitted to the stud book of thr AKC in mar 1930. So the way I see it, All shorthairs of modern day have English Pointer in them. sonny

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:45 pm

Only the arrogance of an E P guy would make a post about the Ames Plantation on the subject of the best gsp.

I do not understand.

Pepper

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:53 pm

SORRY-----Sonny

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:50 pm

Hotpepper wrote:Only the arrogance of an E P guy would make a post about the Ames Plantation on the subject of the best gsp.

I do not understand.

Pepper

True, as the post above mentions Pointers were used to improve GSP's. That is why they have to be registered in the Any Kind of Canine.

I guess some of you guys can't take a little joke. From now on I'll try not to post anything that might hurt your feelings

CW

P.S. Does the rules say they have to have full length tails is that why they can't win? I guess I cant say I've ever seen a pointer win the big one in the NGSPA. But I think thats a breed specific trial isn't it?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:20 pm

Walls.

We also should mention that foxhounds were used to improve pointers if thats important. So I fail to see your point. It would be a lot more pleasant if we didn't have to wonder what the point is but could just read everyones opinion without the barbs.

Ezzy

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:37 pm

I don't think a GSP would stand a chance at Ames. The Setter's have been trying for a long time and they can't break thru. I suspect that for any dog to take out a pointer there, it will have to win so convincingly that it can't be done. What I think would be a good idea is a similar three hour stake for different individual breeds. I don't believe any good is served by trials open to all breeds. The problem being each breed is different even if only a bit. If it were not, why doesn't everyone just buy an English Pointer and be done with it? Then you could compete with them. But I don't think it's about the breed you have if your chasing Pointer's and Setter's. It's simply trying to beat them at their game so you can say you did it. What then? Once you've done it where do you go? If all you want to do is prove that GSP's are better than Pointer's, well, you just might do it on a given day. Every dog does have it's day doesn't it.

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:49 pm

If I'm not mistaken Foxhound's were not used to improve the breed, but rather used as one of the four foundation breeds used to create the breed. I generally do not care, but being called arrogant for posting something about Ames makes me laugh. Is there really something that prohibits GSP's from entering?

CW

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:57 pm

Walls,

If I remember right the only requirement to enter at Ames is that you must win two qualifing trials, both of which are championship trials. To enter those trials, you must first place in a qualifing trial. Either that or your dog must already be a Nat Ch. No sweat!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:19 pm

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote: Rusty had to be taught to point and Husser barely finished the dog, yet he has produced many many outstanding dogs and his lineage is still making an impact

Blake why do you continue to repeat something you know not to be true?

This is completely inaccurate according to both Ron Hermann and Ed Hussar, the two guys who far and away would be the most likely to know the facts. You have even been specifically told so by Lou Gleber one of Ed's closes freinds and associates throughout the latter years of his life.

The truth is, it was hard to get Rusty fully broke because he wanted to retrieve every bird that went down but there was never any issue of "making him point" according to anyone that was involved in his rearing and training. But again you know this so you are simply repeating something you know to be untrue. Blatant dishonesty like this doens't make your dogs look any better it just makes GSP people look like a bunch of backbiting dishonest internet heroes.

Bodo no one here even mentioned DK's that I saw until you started spouting the "master race" stuff.

If the DK folks want to say they have "the best" then they need to get out and prove it somewhere. As of yet the only venue where DK's and GSP's go head to head for titles (NAVHDA) this superiority does not show itself at all.

When DK test events are open to all GSP's and the DK's pass at a much higher rate than the GSP's then at least they would be able to say in one venue they dominate. That as we both know will never happen since only FCI registered dogs are allowed to test. It's pretty easy to be "the best" when you are in fact "the only one allowed to compete".

Those are the facts and they really can't be disputed so just give it a rest!

What the heck has Ames got to do with "the best GSP"? It's a venue for pointers and setters set up by pointer and setter people to showcase their dogs, nothing more, nothing less. It has no bearing on this discussion.

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:24 pm

So....... If Don is correct, and I understand correctly there is nothing in the rules stating that a GSP could not compete and perhaps win. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

So....... Me saying something about Ames and then being called arrogant was an example of __________ .............

CW

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:29 pm

TruBlu Shorthairs,

It sounds like you really don't like Clown. That's ok, but if my memory serves me correctly, he has produced over 50 field champions and is still one of the top all time leading sires of field champions. He was bred to a lot of females that were not all that great, but even so, he still produced some great champions that are even passing it on to a 3rd and 4th generation.

Nitrex

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:32 pm

Wall's EP wrote:So....... If Don is correct, and I understand correctly there is nothing in the rules stating that a GSP could not compete and perhaps win. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

So....... Me saying something about Ames and then being called arrogant was an example of __________ .............

CW

Since Ames has nothing to do with GSP's "arrogant" is probably the wrong word. "pot stirrer" or "breed blind" or even "trouble maker" would have probably been far more accurate.

Since you apparently have no understanding or appreciation for the breed perhaps this would be a good topic to just read and learn from rather than posting something just to be inflammatory? CR

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:34 pm

Wildrose read the original post. I put stirring the pot right in there. It was ment as a joke. I still haven't found out what rule states they can't win.

CW

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:39 pm

nitrex wrote:TruBlu Shorthairs,

It sounds like you really don't like Clown. That's ok, but if my memory serves me correctly, he has produced over 50 field champions and is still one of the top all time leading sires of field champions. He was bred to a lot of females that were not all that great, but even so, he still produced some great champions that are even passing it on to a 3rd and 4th generation.

Nitrex

Nitrex actually Blake is dead on, on this one. Rusty was the all time leading producers of FC's for many years and was bred appoximately 1/3 as many times as Clown. He was bred heavily to the "top bitches in the breed" because he was such a dominating individual with I believe the most National wins ever within the breed. Did he produce some great trail dogs? Certainly, but as a function of percentage breedings/FC's he was not all that potent a producer at all.

If you really want to research it, simply go to the AKC website, go to reports/progeny reports and look up both dogs. CR

nitrex · Post by **nitrex** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:45 pm

I didn't say Clown was the all-time leading sire, just one of the top producers in the breed - fact. I'm not trying to say anyting more than he gets less credit than he may deserve. I don't personally like the rusty bred dogs - just my opinion. I've owned a few and hunted with a few that were nice dogs, I just like something else. Clown and some others flip the bill for me.

Nitrex

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:46 pm

Wall's,

I think it is the same rule that doesn't allow a pointer to run retriever trials. Different breeds are bred for different purposes and different ways of doing things. That means that one breed is no better than another but it does pretty much keep one breed from winning a contest set up for another breed. I think you are aware of this but are enjoying acting a little dumb.

There is a reason why GSP's and many other breeds are better hunting in the pheasant fields while the pointer shines in the quail habitat. It's nice we are able to find a breed that shines in practically any venue. With good breeding it will continue.

Ezzy

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:14 pm

you pointer boys kill me. We all know that any dog would have to dominate a pointer trial to win. Even when they do you still do not give it to them. Oh may be once in a three hour trial. That little Brittany Pacolets Cheyenne Sam, won the 1973 International Endurance Championship. You want to see other dogs win try a few other judges.

Wall's EP · Post by **Wall's EP** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:53 pm

So you are saying Ames is a Pointer trial although any pointing breed is allowed. OK, I understand. So any breed can participate, unlike the GSP only trials that are not open to any other breeds. Do you think a GSP could still win all their own events if it was open to all breeds? Or would the other pointing breeds sometimes win?

I do have to disagree about Pointers and only quail. I think plenty of pointers have won Coverdog and plenty of chicken and pheasant championships. In general if its a pointing event they have won it multiple times, that is unless the are prohibited from partaking in the event because of their breed.(racism right down to the letter) I wonder if Rev. Sharpton knows about this atrocity in the FT world.

Bottom line, I believe the right GSP that has true AA range, quarters well, has great style, and a has the stamina to run a full 3 HR brace can win the Nationals. It just seems that everyone has the idea that it can't be done, but someone will do it eventually. Then we will all know who the best GSP of all time was.

CW

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:25 am

Bottom line, I believe the right GSP that has true AA range, quarters well, has great style, and a has the stamina to run a full 3 HR brace can win the Nationals. It just seems that everyone has the idea that it can't be done, but someone will do it eventually. Then we will all know who the best GSP of all time was.

Yup. I've had the good fortune of running under one of the Nat'l Ch. judges, CFB, and he's adament bird dogs are bird dogs no matter what they look like. He put my GSP up over nearly 30 pointers and setters in an open championship and I've no doubt he and his judge co-horts have the fortitude to do ithe same at the big show if a GSP ever qualified to be there. I've ran with a bunch of dogs that have either competed at or are qualified to compete at Ames, managed to even get the nod over a couple (they were SD stakes though FWIW), so I know first hand GSP's can compete, it's just a matter of getting owners to put their dogs in the qualifying venues and giving it a try.

I definitely wouldn't say though that the 1st GSP to qualify is the best GSP of all times or even the best GSP of that time - I don't think the modern trial venues with wind up or pre-release birds, even Ames, play much bearing in determining the best bird dogs of all times - everybody knows it's Red Water Rex anyway.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:46 am

Wall, for a pointer guy you don't know much about the judging at ames. It is specific to Ames. The founder of the plantation depeloped the judging scale and they have a name for it even. I think it is something like "The amonian scale". It is judged diferently than any other trial. This judging is tailor made for pointers as has been shown over the last 100 years. The tail is pretty important in this trial and I have heard one of the judges on a video of Ames talk about how it would be near impossiable for a docked tail dog to do good there because of this amonian judging. I think if a gsp was going to do good there it would have to be undocked and there ain't many of those around. The fact is that this thread has nothing to do with ames and you were the one to bring it up and for some reason won't stop commenting on it. Since we are so off course already maybe we should talk about how the greatest dog in your book. The pointer, has deminished in popularity over the last 50 years and the gsp's has become the most popular pointing dog in the US. Even more popular than the Doberman pincher. Why do you think that is since the pointer is the best pointing dog and obviously ames is the only trial that matters?

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:15 am

Hate to disagree about what I know for a fact Charlie. I drove a dog of John Bodden, Prince, and another dog down to Covington to Ed Husser in 1999 or so prior to summer camp. I spent about 8 hours talking to Ed. He told me that Rusty would not point when he got him and that the dog had to learn to stand his birds, then yes, he did point. Ed told me that. I don't remember Lou and I ever discussing Rusty.

Clown is a leading sire folks. But, was bred to around a zillion times. Any dog producing thousands of pups is going to produce some FCs and NFCs if pups are put in the right hands. Percentages are what count!! Rusty produced far more in percentage terms and Slick most likely more than Rusty, again, in percentage terms.

Nope, please don't bring up the Ames stuff. OUR national championship is the GSPCA with Booneville alongside, the NGSPA. Ames is a pointer trial with a few setters slung in for measure. Shorthairs have won pointer trials including championships, from GA to TX to WA to ID. But, most all GSP owners know that winning the AA at Eureka means you are THE GSP of that year. Why run under judges who won't give your plodding stub tail a look? We, as breeders, who do not breed to pointers, are working to produce the best GSP, not the best burddawg. Shoot, I've won Weim and Brit trials, where 90% of the dogs were of another breed. However, winning a GSP event with 50 dogs is a much higher accomplishment FOR A GSP, trying to prove his worth among his own breed.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:16 am

Ohio, how 'bout "amesian".

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:39 am

There you go. I couldn't remember.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:53 am

Ohio, that "standard" still makes little difference to us lowly GSP folks.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:07 am

Lets get back to what this thread is about, the best GSP ever. If someone wants to start a thread about the best pointer or some other breed we can do that but this one is about GSP's.

Ezzy

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:32 am

Has anybody noticed that the only dogs being mentioned are males? I think that the production of good pup's is at least 50% the female, maybe a bit more. I'm not so sure the greatset dog can be picked by a performance scale alone but rather by what was contributed to the breed.

I have never heard the names of great females mentioned much, other than "Hannah"!

Probably because a male can produce so many more get than a female in a life time. They also don't seem to be trialed as much as males, seem's to be the gold standard.

The Amesian Standard was not written by one man, it was written by three who's names escape me right now. I'm thinking W.W. Titus, Frank Riley and Hobart Ames. If any of you have read it, I think it is a great piece of work. A standard that probably could and should be applied to all dogs. Also dogs that quarter in broke dog trials don't win much!

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:43 am

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:NAVHDA folks seem to believe that if a dog doesn't run deer for miles the dog isn't worth owning.

Blake, I assume you're kidding. I'm heavily involved in NAVHDA across the country and know of nobody that lets their dog chase deer. Maybe some of the DD owners will use them to track a wounded deer but that's a rare occasion.

As far as Clown goes, you, me and Charlie know David's dog Chief is one heck of a dog and he's a son of Clown. Chief's offspring that I've seen are all pretty darn nice, too. That's about the only Clown offspring I've personally hunted with. I'd agree 100% about the percentages, though.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:04 am

WildRose wrote:
TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote: Rusty had to be taught to point and Husser barely finished the dog, yet he has produced many many outstanding dogs and his lineage is still making an impact
Blake why do you continue to repeat something you know not to be true?

This is completely inaccurate according to both Ron Hermann and Ed Hussar, the two guys who far and away would be the most likely to know the facts. You have even been specifically told so by Lou Gleber one of Ed's closes freinds and associates throughout the latter years of his life.

The truth is, it was hard to get Rusty fully broke because he wanted to retrieve every bird that went down but there was never any issue of "making him point" according to anyone that was involved in his rearing and training. But again you know this so you are simply repeating something you know to be untrue. Blatant dishonesty like this doens't make your dogs look any better it just makes GSP people look like a bunch of backbiting dishonest internet heroes.

Bodo no one here even mentioned DK's that I saw until you started spouting the "master race" stuff.

If the DK folks want to say they have "the best" then they need to get out and prove it somewhere. As of yet the only venue where DK's and GSP's go head to head for titles (NAVHDA) this superiority does not show itself at all.

When DK test events are open to all GSP's and the DK's pass at a much higher rate than the GSP's then at least they would be able to say in one venue they dominate. That as we both know will never happen since only FCI registered dogs are allowed to test. It's pretty easy to be "the best" when you are in fact "the only one allowed to compete".

Those are the facts and they really can't be disputed so just give it a rest!

What the heck has Ames got to do with "the best GSP"? It's a venue for pointers and setters set up by pointer and setter people to showcase their dogs, nothing more, nothing less. It has no bearing on this discussion.

Go back and read what I wrote I said I would put VERSATILE dogs in front. I also said 100 yrs ago I think dogs as a WHOLE were better. The top end dogs now are better then the best 100 yrs ago. That is when people starting going after DK's because that is what there was 100 yrs ago. If you don't agree with me that is fine, I like it when people feel their type of dog is best. That is the way it should be. As for DK's proving themselves I don't know what you want you will see very few if any ever run in FT's that is not what they are bred for, trained for, or bought for. Yes there are only a few DK's in NAVHDA. Two reasons for it. The first being that the DKV already has a testing system and the second there isn't that many DK's in the states. Most years there are less than 100 DK pups born in the States every year. If you ever want to find out the facts about DK's let me know.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:12 am

vzkennels wrote:Don go back to the first page & read Hotpeppers post.Most of the dogs he mentioned are females.

Yea he did didn't he. Seems like that was month's ago!

Oh well. My kids stronger than your kid!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:41 am

parshal wrote:
TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:NAVHDA folks seem to believe that if a dog doesn't run deer for miles the dog isn't worth owning.
Blake, I assume you're kidding. I'm heavily involved in NAVHDA across the country and know of nobody that lets their dog chase deer.

I'd agree completely with this. I spent 5+ years involved with NAVHDA, including a good deal of time with the Lone Star Chapter members and I NEVER came across a NAVHDA member who wanted a dog to run or track deer. Some of the German folks, especially the DD folks - that's a whole other matter.

As to "percentages" it's all meaningless unless you have some way to show how many offspring of a particular dog were trialed and how many were not. Comparing total number of breedings to number of FCs or number of NFCs is not relevant.

JMO,
Dave

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:12 am

We had one of the first litters out of Dixielands Rusty,most of the pups didnt start pointing until they were derbys.FCPJWildfire was one of the best during the 1980's...vern

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:20 pm

parshal, my comment about NAVHDA was pretty much tongue in cheek. However, I've seen far too many NAVHDA folks degrade dogs that weren't used for blood tracking, doing 200 yard blinds, cornering hogs, etc. I have yet to see a trial person who degrades another's game other than NSTRA. Sorry just had to say that.

I've never seen David's dog, but am confident he is a nice dog is you say he is. However, with the breedings of Clown that were done, we should be naming 15 NFCs and couple of HOF dogs by now. Just not the case, in NON limited breedings.

pttrrff · Post by **pttrrff** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:48 pm

Blake,

I would personally rather win the AA at Booneville than at Eureka. I know you don't like Booneville because of all the cover. I don't like Eureka because of the lack of it and the amount of birds they put out. You could find birds at Eureka without a dog. Just my opinion, not trying to start an argument of get off of the topic at hand. Which I also think is impossible to answer. I don't know which dog I own I would consider the "best" so I won't even try to compare and rank dogs I have never seen. The only person a dog has to please is the person who is feeding it.

WVGSP · Post by **WVGSP** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:03 pm

ask 50 people and you'll probably get 50 different ansewers.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:13 pm

Mike, that's why I said that it truly is a beauty is in the eye issue. I go on production of dead dogs, maybe wins, wins in different parts of the country for the best ever. Of modern dogs, dogs I've seen run, gotta go with Slick, Chloe, and Scoop(FC Clown's Early News), really really like/liked all three, consistent birddogs.

I used to like Booneville due to the grooming of the grounds, now I hate Booneville due to the grooming, or lack thereof.

I do like Eureka, but I actually like Christian Hills better, more cover, nice edges, dogs had to be birddogs, but could show run also. I like Eureka for an AA dog a bunch and hate it for a GD. It forces a dog to be a big Sd to win, so the GD championship is misrepresented by a big SD. A dog at 600 yards is just not a GD.

No argument from me.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:28 pm

I Bet that my dog can whip your dog. In my opinion this thread was a DISASTER when it started. Someone was just asking for a fight, dont you think ? The best dog in the world is in my KENNEL.

Sonny

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:32 pm

I thought you said he was in "our" kennel???

Course, you bred yous to ours so that should make the very BEST pupies!!!

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:03 pm

Brenda, Thats what I ment to say, This thread has went is circles for seven pages. Nothing has been voted on yet. Everyone has their own opinion, some times I step on folks TOES but I really dont mean to. I have my opinon and Iam sticking to it. ITS HOTT. I just heard Its 106 in Lafayette GA. Stay COOL :roll: :roll: :roll: SONNY

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:27 pm

Gun Dog Forum

Who is the best GSP ever??????

NO GSP HAS EVER WON THE GRAND DADDY OF ALL FT!