Would you breed to this dog?

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:59 pm

I have a three year old pointer (english) male, that is a heck of a wild bird dog, all natural. well built, perfect bite, perfect in the kennel i just cant say enough about this dog. But he isnt out of anything to speak of. No field trial champions or anything. I know papers dont make the dog, but it sure helps sell them. A am in no way trying to make money but i just dont want to stuck with a bunch of pups. Just wanting to get a pup for my self. Thanks

zdiddy · Post by **zdiddy** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:58 pm

check out gundogbreeders.com there is a listing for all breeds its free and you can advertise what you are looking for also this classified ad works great

good luck

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:25 pm

I am not looking for a female or a stud. I have a nice Elhew female. But i was wondering if i should breed to the male i described earlier.

GsPJustin · Post by **GsPJustin** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:08 am

I know you said that he doesn't have anything special. But maybe a picture and a list of accomplishments of some kind to give people a better idea of what kind of dog your describing.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:51 am

If you are looking for a pup out of this male, and he has everything you like and can contribute to the breed, than go for it. But if you are looking at trying to get some pups sold as well, get him into some kind of competetion just for some exposure, he may have some attributes someone else could use in there breeding program. Pedigrees are great there going to give you a good idea as to what you may get, if it is correct, all to many times litters are bred on peds and not abilities, pedigrees do not make birddogs. If he is what you say he is expose him some ask around let some poeple see him. It's to hard to sit here and say yep breed to him without seeing what kind of dog he is.

JMO,
Chip

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:09 am

But he isnt out of anything to speak of.

You are obviously not referring to Blueditch White Smoke, because his pedigree is outstanding!

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:00 am

I think any breed would suffer if all anybody went by was the # of titles a a dog had.

Our female Buffy came out of a female that, on paper, was fairly unimpressive. Her pedigree included a lot of Hungarian stock that didn't have AKC titles. She had her CH and a senior hunter. But we'd seen the dog, we'd seen her run, we'd seen her hunt, and we loved her conformation. Great looking dog with a really, really nice run. She didn't have many titles because her owners just didn't have the time to do much competition with her. We couldn't be happier with the pup we got from her. I think personal knowledge of what the dog brings to the table has to carry a lot of weight.

I think Chip has some excellent points, too, and I don't think any of us can give you a yea/nay on this particular breeding if we don't know the dog in question.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:51 am

If you do the breeding for a pup next spring I might take one. I have 5 shorthairs that are 11 year old dogs.

I want to know more about the dog range biddability ect and same with whatever female you use.

You should propose the breeding and give details on several board and see if you can get 5-6 people to commit to a pup first then you are covered.

Theresa · Post by **Theresa** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:17 am

I breed for myself - first. I don't breed a litter unless I am looking to keep something from it. To that end, I like to get my OFA stuff out of the way - you don't have to certify OFA if you are keeping the entire litter, but when it comes to selling pups to Joe Public, its nice to have it certified that your sire/dam are proven free at the time of breeding of the common hereditary disorders. (And while certifiying them clear does not guarantee you will not produce a genetic issue, it goes a long way in stacking the deck for sound pups/happy customers down the road.)

And - there will be those pups you won't be keeping; sort them out best you can. It helps to have word of mouth advertising for the promising prospects, and a handbill or newspaper ad goes a long way for the pets.

I wouldn't plan on French Bulldog prices - ie you can ask 2k, and someone may pay it - but I guess it really depends on how long you want to feed those pups. A reasonable price to insure a good home gets a pup placed in reasonble time, and not idle in the kennel - where to keep that pup a good pet prospect/sale prospect you have to invest time to socialize and train, and add more vetting to boot.

So, should you breed that male?

1) do you want to keep a pup?

2) is he (and the dam) healthy enough to breed?

3) can you afford it? Both time and money wise. The time off if the whelping goes wrong, the vetting for the pups, the time to socialize the pups, the time to continue training the pups you have yet to sell, and all the feed that goes with that.

4) do you realize you won't git rich with this litter?

If you can say YES to all then I say GO FUR IT

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:05 pm

...I like to get my OFA stuff out of the way - you don't have to certify OFA if you are keeping the entire litter, but when it comes to selling pups to Joe Public...

Fact: Pointer buyers don't give a flip about OFA.

Theresa · Post by **Theresa** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:19 pm

That's a fact?

Well then, scroo my advice!

(But you may get one of those book learned pet people, who will ask because the book said so. Just make sure you have an answer for why you do/why you do not, have OFA stuff on your litter. )

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:33 pm

(But you may get one of those book learned pet people, who will ask because the book said so. Just make sure you have an answer for why you do/why you do not, have OFA stuff on your litter. )

Theresa,

You give good advice. I didn't mean it that way. I OFA my GSPs but I don't my Pointers. FT Pointers have had their hips tested in the field for many, many generations. Bad hips get weeded out pretty quick. It's just not a problem in the breed.

Please don't quote me OFA numbers for Pointers because they aren't FDSB Pointers. Whenever you have breeds that are bred for other than performance (show), then these genetic faults can become a problem. When you breed for performance only, the genetic problems take care of themselves.

Theresa · Post by **Theresa** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:40 pm

No offense taken - it just struck me as funny!

I hear you - there are proven working lines, and then there are show lines.

I don't know if its the same for all breeds tho. Proven working GSD schutzhund lines have been found to have CHD - same with hard game tested pitbulls; these dogs are both heavily worked (in their various fashions) but you will still find CHD - maybe the pain tolerance in the breeds are greater?

In any event, I DO hear you! There are just some breeds that don't seem to have the issues. Glad to know that pointers is one such gem of a breed! (And NO, I am not getting a pointer pup from my farmer friend, no, no no......

)

Edited to correct GSP to GSD!!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:35 pm

FT Pointers have had their hips tested in the field for many, many generations. Bad hips get weeded out pretty quick. It's just not a problem in the breed

I'm not sure it's what I'd consider a problem in any breed but don't think it doesn't happen in pointers and amongst the popular lines. Seen it wit my own eyeballs! Just because pointer breeders/buyers don't care about it doesn't mean it doesn't occur!!

If you're one of those that think OFA certs is the end all (cough, cough) then I'm not sure why it would be any less "necessary" in pointers than any other breed.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:12 pm

Thats my experience also, Doug. Maybe a little less frequent but its there and testing in the field isn't the end all test either. Ezzy

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 pm

Many many people forget that its the dog that makes the papers not the other way around.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:26 pm

But it's the papers that give you the best idea as to what the dog will produce. Without them you have no clue unless you know the dog and the last two generations personally.

Ezzy

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:But it's the papers that give you the best idea as to what the dog will produce. Without them you have no clue unless you know the dog and the last two generations personally.

Ezzy

We're talking pointers here; you really willing to base much on the papers?

gonehunting4days · Post by **gonehunting4days** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:47 pm

So is everbody thinking if birddog took his pointer out and achieved a FC, MH, or UT PZ 1 title he may be able to sell those pups he does not wish to keep easier?

Dusty

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:15 pm

Well i havent ran him in any trials or test, I have only been around NSTRA trials and i am pretty d_mn sure he would compete. But i just dont have enough time or money to put him in the trials. And no yawallac I am not talking about bluditch white smoke. This dog will run him into the ground!!! (but two yrs age diff also) i will try to post some pics. his name is CANEY CREEK DOC. I do not want to make money i just want a pup out of him. Any more questions feel free to ask. Hey yawallac, you wouldnt be interested in blueditch white smoke would you?

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:21 pm

Lets see if this works .

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:31 pm

We're talking pointers here; you really willing to base much on the papers?

Easy Dave!

Caney Creek Doc

....he doesn't go back to Slate Creek Doc does he? You know, National Champion Slate Creek Doc?????

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:20 am

Even with titled dogs its the dogs that made the papers great not vice versa. I agree that you should breed out of proven dogs, the lack of a title does not always mean that a dog is not a proven dog, that is up to the owner to really evaluate if the dog is worthy of breeding.
The best Pointer/GSP/Britt whatever breed you choose, is laying on someones couch or in a kennel and is never going to see a trial and probably wont ever be bred.

I buy dogs out of titled dogs because I think it improves my chances of getting what I want, but the best shorthair I have owned to date was given to me and didnt have any titles in 3-4 generations but man was she a BIRDDOG.

gonehunting4days · Post by **gonehunting4days** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:09 pm

but the best shorthair I have owned to date was given to me and didnt have any titles in 3-4 generations but man was she a BIRDDOG

I have one like that also, and I am working on getting tittles on her. I agree papers are not everything but they do help.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:35 pm

I am sorry. I am not a big fan of dogs that are not out of proven parents. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. But I just haven't had great experiences with that.

It has definitely not been that the dogs were not good hunters. Probably one of the best I have ever had was such a dog. But he also had hypothyroidism and seizures. And then I got a pointer not out of titled parents and it had lupus. And we had a couple of Britts out of untitled parentage, they were a father and a son, they had seizures and the weirdest thing was that the father seizing would trigger the son.

I am not saying you won't find health issues with dogs out of titled FT stock. But way way fewer of them. That has been my own experience. Plus, they have the hunt.

Be proud of the dog you have. Love it. That is what I did with those dogs. But think on this when it comes time to get the next one.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:29 am

Health is the most important factor in my opinion, no matter how mush ability a dog has if it has health problems it should never be bred; hips, eys, elbows, thyroid, and to many other to list. Those are not factors that can be over looked.

Dont get me wrong I believe that title are great, I have a daughter of MRT and on the dams side she is a granddaughter to Magnum. But titles are not the sole factor when breeding dogs.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:13 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:But it's the papers that give you the best idea as to what the dog will produce. Without them you have no clue unless you know the dog and the last two generations personally.

Ezzy
We're talking pointers here; you really willing to base much on the papers?

I don't care who you are. That's funny right there.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:16 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:I am sorry. I am not a big fan of dogs that are not out of proven parents. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. But I just haven't had great experiences with that.

It has definitely not been that the dogs were not good hunters. Probably one of the best I have ever had was such a dog. But he also had hypothyroidism and seizures. And then I got a pointer not out of titled parents and it had lupus. And we had a couple of Britts out of untitled parentage, they were a father and a son, they had seizures and the weirdest thing was that the father seizing would trigger the son.

I am not saying you won't find health issues with dogs out of titled FT stock. But way way fewer of them. That has been my own experience. Plus, they have the hunt.

Be proud of the dog you have. Love it. That is what I did with those dogs. But think on this when it comes time to get the next one.

Huh? If a dog doesn't come from a FT background it is more likely to be sick?

GRIFF MAN · Post by **GRIFF MAN** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:08 am

birdogg42 wrote:. I do not want to make money i just want a pup out of him. Any more questions feel free to ask.

If money isn't a issue then give the pups away!! You won't be stuck with any if they are free. And if money isn't an issue then thats not a problem.

cravenkennellabs · Post by **cravenkennellabs** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:13 am

Like someone said the dog makes the papers not the other way around. Magnum has only one Senior Hunter in his pedigree; all the rest I'm not sure if they hunted or did anything else, but he's only a pup and is showing great retrieving.

Go on Google and search classifieds for breeders where you can post. One I heard mention www. gundogbreeders.com is a good one. Some people could care less if the dog has Champion hunters in its blood. They just want a good hutning dog, that will do what they ask and then come home and relax with them and thier family.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:44 am

Huh? If a dog doesn't come from a FT background it is more likely to be sick?

More likely to have serious genetic defects, yes. "Sick" as in catching parvo or something, no way.

Look mate, I am only telling you my personal experience. But it has been quite a few dogs. I have had way more non-trial stock dogs, than trial stock or actual trial dogs. And I am not saying it because I am a trialer, which I am right now, but I have spent alot more years of my hunting career not being a trialer than being one.

People who do not know the trial system focus only on the titles, and think we breed to the most titled dogs or the most highly titled dogs. I am sure there are some who do. But for most of us, selection of dogs for trial breeding is much more complex than that.

First, to be a successful trial dog, a young dog goes through a minimum of two years of rigorous training and conditioning. This goes on pretty much every day during that period. Even rest days are scheduled events. If the dog is going to be difficult to train, or has a bad temperament, or does not have stamina, heart, and lungs, it is found out and it is washed out.

It is also campaigned heavily in front of a great many other people, not just judges, but people looking for a possible breeding candidate. They see how it works, acts, runs. When it is campaigned it faces a great deal of stress. Dogs thrive on routine, but trial dogs move virtually every week to a new place, then run with new dogs, all the while being conditioned and trained.

Out of this it becomes apparent which dogs are very sound, and which have breakable parts. Those do not make it into the breeding pool.

The very good ones are commonly trialed their entire lives, they are retired at 9 or 10. During that career they will have run in hundreds of trials and been seen by thousands of people. If they are good, everyone will know it. If they are not sound, everyone knows that too, and they are not bred to.

It is not a perfect system, but there is no other system that tests working hunting dogs with the rigor of trialing.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:58 am

John,

I agree with some of what you are saying. However I don't agree it is just the FT dogs. How can you say that a dog running in NAVHDA, DKV, HT, etc. Does not need stamina, temperament, or cooperation? I agree the dogs that are in FT are ran a whole lot harder but there is a lot of time and training put in a KS or VC or MH title and a lot of stress to the dog. You wrote that FT guys don't breed because of titles. So how are you insuring the good genetics then? If a dog is ran for 8 to 10 years I would think he would have some sort of title on him. I am not trying to start an argument I am just trying to understand.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:19 am

First lets establish that, at least from my point of view, the discussion is not about the type of dog work required by the other groups you mentioned. I have done NAVHDA, learned alot, like the people, have no problem with what they want out of their dogs, what their test objectives are.

The difference is the lack of rigor.

Someone who gets really into NAVHDA might run the dog in combined NA and UT tests what? 10 times over the life of the dog? Someone who is totally addicted might test 20 times, that would be a record I think. And that would be someone who travels alot to go to tests. Once a dog has a PI UT, what is the point of getting another PI UT, except maybe to qualify for the Invitational and get a VC. Don't get me wrong, the VC is definitely an achievement. That dog is worked enough to deserve respect. But in terms of the duration and rigor of the training, it is about like an FC in AKC field trialing. An accomplishment, but now how good is the dog really?

Hunt testers need to get 4-6 legs on a dog for Master. If the dog works its way through the test system, from JH up through M, it tests what, 20 times in its life, maybe 30 if it does not pass quickly?

The top trial dogs, the ones we breed to, will run in ten trials in the spring, and then 10 again in the fall, every year, year in and year out, for the life of the dog. By the end of a career they will have run in somewhere between 100 and 200 trials, and if the dog is good, those trials become longer and more difficult to win as the dog progresses. They will have an FC, muliple hour championship placements, and maybe a National title or two. The record for National titles I believe is 5, the record for multiple hour wins is 33. In all of the hour championships, they will be competing against other championship caliber dogs, every time out.

Because they are trained so much, we must work them like elite human athletes, pick a particular large event, say a National Championship, and train them to peak at that point. It is not possible to keep them constantly at peak, the training is so rigorous they would get bored, mentally and physically, they would start to break down from overtraining. That is the kind of thing the trial dogs go through.

Understand, I am not saying NAVHDA or any of the other organization you might want to ask about are somehow inferior in the type of work they ask of the dog. That is an argument for a different day. What I am saying is, do more, way more.

When your NAVHDA dog has run in 75 or so tests and it is 4, then come talk to me again about durability, stamina, heart, lung, about what the testing system represents to breeders. And it would be nice if you would make the field portion of the test an hour and the water work a half mile.

To answer your last question, there is no such thing as a trial dog that is 8 or 10 and has no titles on it, not in my experience. The 8 or 10 year olds I am talking about are the dogs with multiple hour championships, maybe a National Championship or two, and they are out there showing that they can win consistently, not every time out, but enough that the owner continues to run them. In GSP circles, most dogs will have some kind of title on them, such as an FC or AFC, by the time they are 4 or 5. And that will have been the product of several years of work. At that point they have just earned their ticket to the big leagues, the hour championships, where they will spend the duration of their career. If by that time, they have not titled, the owner will have stopped running them. It is not worth the time and money. Usually you can tell if the dog "does not have it" long before 4 or 5 years, and the owner will wash it out.

It takes a great deal of time, work, and money to campaign a top trial dog. Dogs with any serious weaknesses do not even get to play.

bondoron · Post by **bondoron** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:01 am

John,

I wasn't trying to make it into a FT vs. other formats. Sorry if I made it sound that way. I don't agree with some of the stuff you say, so I was just looking for some more info to try and understand you.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:06 am

I wasn't either. I didn't think you were either, but the way things work here, someone would chime in on that subject if we weren't careful.

Sorry if the post was long. Was trying to give you an understanding.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:55 am

John that was very informative I appreciated it and it makes good sense.

Let me ask your opinion about field trial washouts, what do think of them as hunting dog prospects for average hunters?

Seems to me not being able to compete just indicates they are not elite athetes, but would still be sound useful hunting dogs for average Joes like me.

Your opinion?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:39 pm

I would want to know why it washed out, what kind of a trial prospect it was, and when in the trial training process it washed out. Because I would want to know what I was getting into.

I currently have trial dog and his sister. Sister, call named Whitey, is a trial stock dog. Meaning she has the same pedigree and parents as the trial dog, but has never been trained for trialing at all. She has been my home dog since she was born, and she was born at my home. She was a very fast and splashy dog from the start, and in my opinion, could have been a trial dog. But that was not what I had in mind for her.

She has been trained to hunt for me from day one. So she has quite a bit of range, speed, pretty on point, and she checks back. Meaning she comes to see where I am once in awhile. I hunt her from foot.

Every dog, if it is any good, goes through a period from somewhere around 6 months to two years, where they are really a handful. She did, you have to be patient.

With a trial dog, though, the training is more rigorous and the objective is to wind up with a dog that is more independent than the foot hunter might want. That derby period can be pretty, shall we say, hectic. If you do it all right, and have the right dog, that dog will come back around by the time it is late three or four years of age, and will foot hunt for you fairly well and will run well for you in trials, will even run All Age, which is pretty big. In between, the derby years, the trial dog will be much more of a handful than the trial stock dog. Same breeding, same characteristics at birth, different start.

The trial dog, particularly if it looks like it might turn into an all age, gets to have its head alot. It is run from horseback most of the time. It is run on big grounds. We put a Tracker on it so we can find it when it gets lost, which it is bound to do. We want to put a handle on that dog eventually, we have to, or it will not win it will just get lost. But we want to build in alot of independence first. When we break the dog out, it will moderate its range. We hope some or all will come back, but by this time the dog will have a relationship with the handler, and will not just be running to feel the wind through its ears.

So back to your question, I would want to know why and when it washed out. If it washed out because it did not have sufficient range and independence, but in all other respects was a good dog, I would take it for a foot hunting dog. It will be just the ticket. And a known quantity.

If it washed out because it did not have the style needed to win a trial, I would still take it. Style standards in trials are pretty demanding, but I like even more to see birds in front of the dog that I can shoot, style or no style.

If it washed out because it got squirrelly for some reason, could not be broke, became a blinker, I would not. Why buy a problem?

If it washed out because it was an incorrigible bumper or tagger, and I hunted alone most of the time, that issue would not affect me, I would take it. If I hunted with others quite a bit, it would impair the hunt.

If it washed out when it was a derby in the process of being trained to go all age, that one I would have to think about. Understand, I like those big running dogs alot. But what you are going to get is a very headstrong, independent, huge running young pup that you have not trained, someone else has. You are going to have to try to build a relationship with it, not easy when it is a half mile away, and patiently bring it around to hunt for you.

If you know how to handle such a dog, take it. You at least know what you are in for. If you are Joe Average hunter looking for something to hunt treelines and cattail sloughs, you are going to be very unhappy.

If it were me and you were Joe, I would not sell it to you. I would be dooming both of you to failure. If it were me and you were a trialer, or an ex-trialer, and you hunt big country, and you know what you are getting into, I would sell it to you.

I have a friend who is a pro, who has a really nice GSP washout right now. Or he did as of a couple of months ago. It is a young male, very sweet. You walk over and pet it on the stake out, and it will take your hand in its mouth gently. And if you try to walk away it will bear down just a little. It will not hurt you, it knows never to hurt. It is just telling you not to leave it wants another pet.

It was a great prospect, but had a problem with bloat as a result of which it had a resection and its stomach is stapled to its adbominal wall. It is not a breeder, it is out of the gene pool. But it is one of the best young hunting prospects I have seen in awhile. It has style, animation, is well trained, has big gun dog range, and most of all, it likes people. Any people. That kind of dog (if I did not have a houseful already), would be my hunting dog in the proverbial NY minute.

That is what I can offer.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:59 pm

thanks for taking the time to write that, one more quick question

whats this term mean

incorrigible bumper or tagger

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:25 pm

tagger is a dog that follows another dog around. does not hunt for itself. a problem sometimes, when people try to use a mother, for example, to train a young pup. the pup becomes dependent on the mother. the young dog contributes nothing to the hunt, although it likely does not cause harm either, unless it fails to back and takes out the birds the older dog finds. but i would not want the dog. if ingrained, it is a hard habit to break.

a bumper is a dog that bumps another. you will sometimes see them jumping over the grass, trying to see the other dog, then make a beeline for the other dog at full speed. usually they will ram it shoulder to shoulder. in a hunting dog, these events can turn into a slow smoldering resentment that leads to a dog fight, a hunter tries to break it up, and the hunter gets bit. hunt over.

it is not uncommon to see some of this in young pups there first time out. usually it just goes away or can be trained away. the pup that is incorrigible, can't be corrected, is weeded out.

such a pup would not be useful to someone who hunts with others, and others dogs. it would be a source of problems.

i would include in this category any dog that hunts its bracemate and cannot be readily corrected.

it should go without saying you will see these issues in any type of dog, some more than others. we do not tolerate them in field trialing, we weed the dogs out of the gene pool. thus, i would want to know whether this was the problem, before taking a washout.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:33 pm

thanks again for a very informative thread!

LuLu_01 · Post by **LuLu_01** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:27 pm

Very informative post!
I would add to the debate about using the number of titled dogs in a pedigree to judge it's possible health.

My female GSP is mainly from German lines, 2 KS titled dogs in a three generation pedigree. No FC or AFC titles. She has great confirmation, personality, would hunt till she collapsed, swims, versatile hunter. Lap dog too. Pretty much tough as nails when required...gentle as lamb when not.

Then, I decided to add a pup that was not so much bred as versatile. Meaning, less German lines. So, I looked for a pup..impressive lines, 2 of it's grandparents, 1 on top and 1 on the bottom FC AFC dogs. Top and bottom in in the previous generation to those, both FC dogs. Well, he had the misfortune of a genetic disorder...see In memory of Harry thread.

I think genetic disorders happen no matter what...That is really an entire
different conversation. Just in my humble opinion....line breeding has it's advantages but a whole lot can happen too. Some of the faults can skip a generation...the one that possibly is FC AFC??

Would I hesitate in the future to buy a FC AFC get...no way. Therefore, I do not want to be misunderstood. The breed is a healthy one for the most part. I just have a different view now, more educated about the right questions to ask a breeder and a serious look into past puppy buyer referrals. It is of course buyer beware.....

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:06 am

In thirty five years of training hunting dogs I've never been to a field trial, I'm going to go to one soon

I have another question do they allow people that are just observing to follow the dogs on horseback behind the judges

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:14 am

There are two championships down in Ga. in Jan. http://www.birddogposse.org/Content.asp ... 20Schedule

If you choose to go let me know, my dog is usually at the trial in AZ and so I am not there, but there are others on this board who will be there. We will make sure someone takes care of you.

Also, if you go, I would watch the Shooting Dog stakes. The All Age is a lot of fun for those of us that have done this before, but it is an acquired taste. It would be like going to your first sushi bar and going right for the squid.

There are many other trials down there of different types. Including some of the major circuit pointer/setter trials. They get listed at www.americanfield.com when it gets closer to event time. I just probably would not know anyone, so could not help you.

Best to bring a horse or have someone who can loan you one at the grounds. There are many good walking trials also. Pick your poison.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:36 am

bobman,

I'll be running in a lot of NBHA trials next door to you this fall. If you'd like to come, I'll introduce you to a great group of people.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:40 am

Id like that, both of those things

We have three horses so thats not a problem.

Whats NBHA stand for

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:26 pm

i would rather have a wild bird dog than a ft dog that has never hunted wild birds

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:06 pm

I would rather have a wild bird dog than a ft dog that has never hunted wild birds

Excellent post, thanks for sharing. :roll:

bobman,

NBHA is an acronym for National Bird Hunters Association.

Gun Dog Forum

Would you breed to this dog?

Would you breed to this dog?

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