AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by cjhills » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:20 pm

Here is the problem I have with all dog competition and talk of high standards; the standards and rules are decided by humans. They are constantly changing depending on somebody's opinion. Mostly based on what a few people think looks good and very little on putting birds in the bag.
The dogs that were winning 50 years ago would be a joke now. Twelve o'clock tails did not exist.
Using field trials to judge dog breeding stock only works if you want what is winning in trials.
As everybody on this forum knows I have a hard time understanding why the field trialers believe their dogs meet the highest standards in the dog world.
Sooner or later every dog owner needs to decide what he wants in a dog, not because somebody tells him what he likes, but because his experience tells him. He can be happy with his choice or go a different direction. It just needs to be his choice. I will never try to convince him that my bchoice was better........Cj

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by DonF » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:30 pm

Speaking of pedigree's, can anyone tell me the signifacance of Barn Owl Wind? Lot of people with him in their dogs pedigree and they don't even know it! Titles mean a dog has the ability but does not indicate if you have the ability to bring it out!

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by DonF » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:37 pm

cjhills wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:20 pm
Here is the problem I have with all dog competition and talk of high standards; the standards and rules are decided by humans. They are constantly changing depending on somebody's opinion. Mostly based on what a few people think looks good and very little on putting birds in the bag.
The dogs that were winning 50 years ago would be a joke now. Twelve o'clock tails did not exist.
Using field trials to judge dog breeding stock only works if you want what is winning in trials.
As everybody on this forum knows I have a hard time understanding why the field trialers believe their dogs meet the highest standards in the dog world.
Sooner or later every dog owner needs to decide what he wants in a dog, not because somebody tells him what he likes, but because his experience tells him. He can be happy with his choice or go a different direction. It just needs to be his choice. I will never try to convince him that my bchoice was better........Cj
This is very good! Interpation of the rules is the perogative of the judges! What one judge consider's a reason to pick up a dog, another praise's as great dog work! I think the real value of pedigree's with titles on them is deciding if a dog is show bred or trial bred! Myself I would not buy a strictly show bred dog. fld champions mean the blood is field blood, could be good and could be bad! Someone tell me that great fld champions never throw a dud, of course they do! In fact they throw more trial duds than great trial winner's!

One thing I disagree with here. is the statement that dog's winning 50 yrs ago would be a joke now! That is an opinion I would disagree with. Dogs 50 years ago probably subscribed to more of a hunting dog standard, todays dog's, particuarly all age dog's, subscribe to a trial dog standard. I've known a lot of field trial people that never hunt their trial dog's, could mess them up for trial standards!

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by Mosby » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:13 pm

DonF wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:37 pm
cjhills wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:20 pm
Here is the problem I have with all dog competition and talk of high standards; the standards and rules are decided by humans. They are constantly changing depending on somebody's opinion. Mostly based on what a few people think looks good and very little on putting birds in the bag.
The dogs that were winning 50 years ago would be a joke now. Twelve o'clock tails did not exist.
Using field trials to judge dog breeding stock only works if you want what is winning in trials.
As everybody on this forum knows I have a hard time understanding why the field trialers believe their dogs meet the highest standards in the dog world.
Sooner or later every dog owner needs to decide what he wants in a dog, not because somebody tells him what he likes, but because his experience tells him. He can be happy with his choice or go a different direction. It just needs to be his choice. I will never try to convince him that my bchoice was better........Cj
This is very good! Interpation of the rules is the perogative of the judges! What one judge consider's a reason to pick up a dog, another praise's as great dog work! I think the real value of pedigree's with titles on them is deciding if a dog is show bred or trial bred! Myself I would not buy a strictly show bred dog. fld champions mean the blood is field blood, could be good and could be bad! Someone tell me that great fld champions never throw a dud, of course they do! In fact they throw more trial duds than great trial winner's!

One thing I disagree with here. is the statement that dog's winning 50 yrs ago would be a joke now! That is an opinion I would disagree with. Dogs 50 years ago probably subscribed to more of a hunting dog standard, todays dog's, particuarly all age dog's, subscribe to a trial dog standard. I've known a lot of field trial people that never hunt their trial dog's, could mess them up for trial standards!
As a novice buying a hunting dog(puppy), titles were the easiest yardstick available that I could find to measure a breeder, a litter or a dog against another but I never thought about the judges role in that process. I did know that I didn't want a puppy from a strictly show kennel and I would guess there are plenty of hunting dogs walking around every bit as good or better than dogs with titles but its impossible to identify who they are or how to find them from the guy who is throwing two dogs together and selling pups for money.

I bought my started GSP over a year ago from a kennel in Kansas that doesn't FT and his pedigrees have few titles. The breeder breeds simple hunting dogs and I went over there a few times and watched several dogs work over birds. I was looking for a male but a young female kept ignoring the handler and bringing the quail back to me. The males I looked at cared less that I was there and did their job. She somehow decided that she was coming home with me and I took that as a sign of intelligence and bought her. My daughter told me that the wand chooses the wizard. Her pedigree isn't going to impress anyone but she is turning out to be exactly what I was looking for in a hunting dog. To CJ's point that is probably the only thing that matters in the end.

This is probably my last pup. If he lives a long life I will be in my 70's and will leave puppies to the younger guys. Hopefully, I choose wisely and won't get a dud but I do want the challenge of one last Vizsla pup to work with while I am young enough and have the time to do it. I will admit that finding a litter and pup is a nerve wracking process when it's your last one. Buying a started dog seemed a lot easier. I could trust my eyes.

I am picking up my new male Vizsla pup on Feb 3rd. If I can figure out how to post pictures I will, not that my 8 week old puppy will look any different than any other 8 week old puppy but the season will be over and I have nothing better to do. Thanks again for your input and wisdom.

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by cjhills » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:33 pm

Thank You for starting a very interesting thread. They have been missing for a while.
I hope your puppy experience will be all you expect it to be. Hope you post some very good pictures in the fall. ......Cj

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by deseeker » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:56 pm

cjhills wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:33 pm
Thank You for starting a very interesting thread. They have been missing for a while.
I hope your puppy experience will be all you expect it to be. Hope you post some very good pictures in the fall. ......Cj
X2 on what CJ said.
Good luck with the pup :D

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by slistoe » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:01 am

cjhills wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:20 pm
Here is the problem I have with all dog competition and talk of high standards; the standards and rules are decided by humans. They are constantly changing depending on somebody's opinion. Mostly based on what a few people think looks good and very little on putting birds in the bag.
The dogs that were winning 50 years ago would be a joke now. Twelve o'clock tails did not exist.
Using field trials to judge dog breeding stock only works if you want what is winning in trials.
As everybody on this forum knows I have a hard time understanding why the field trialers believe their dogs meet the highest standards in the dog world.
Sooner or later every dog owner needs to decide what he wants in a dog, not because somebody tells him what he likes, but because his experience tells him. He can be happy with his choice or go a different direction. It just needs to be his choice. I will never try to convince him that my bchoice was better........Cj
I thought I would stay out of this, but here is my take on the trial situation. The problem some folks seem to have is that they think they know all about what trials and trial dogs are but they actually understand very little about it. They look at it through the same superficial glasses that many folks use when buying a girls/guys calendar.
Certainly style and class are an element of a winning dog and style is a moving target over time - otherwise we would all still be wearing topcoats. But without the underpinnings of a solid working dog - an insatiable desire to HUNT, a nose and the brains to use it... to use the wind properly... to manage his/her birds... to stay on terms with the handler..., stamina and bottom, along with the ability to take training to the highest level of manners on game - all the style of the day means nothing. In the fire of competition though, those superficial stylings are looked on as that little edge that can make the difference between a field of worthy contenders, and those elements of class and style may have looked different 50 years ago but they still existed - the icing on the cake of a solid bird dog.
When I look to a dog from FT breeding I am not looking at them because of the fad of the day in styling, I am looking at them because of those underpinnings - a dog with drive up the wazoo and the physical abilities to utilize it. A dog that will hunt hard, fast, smart and forward. A dog that gives the impression he NEEDS a handler because he would hunt himself to death without someone to say stop. Those are the things that haven't changed in a century of bird dogs - they existed in the dogs of 50 years ago and through the efforts of the trial community they are displayed in the dogs of today.
Do dogs like that exist in other venues and in the general population? Certainly they do. But nowhere else will you find them actively displayed for public scrutiny.

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by RyanDoolittle » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:24 pm

DonF wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:30 pm
Speaking of pedigree's, can anyone tell me the signifacance of Barn Owl Wind? Lot of people with him in their dogs pedigree and they don't even know it! Titles mean a dog has the ability but does not indicate if you have the ability to bring it out!
How long has that dog been dead for and people are still looking for it in their pedigrees. Or that dogs son.

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:09 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:24 pm
DonF wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:30 pm
Speaking of pedigree's, can anyone tell me the signifacance of Barn Owl Wind? Lot of people with him in their dogs pedigree and they don't even know it! Titles mean a dog has the ability but does not indicate if you have the ability to bring it out!
How long has that dog been dead for and people are still looking for it in their pedigrees. Or that dogs son.
Barn Owl Wind was the sire of Ch. Tekoa Mountain Sunrise. Sunrise was one of THE most influential setters of the modern era. I'm a pointer person and even I know that. He sired a whole bunch of extremely talented and DRIVEN, offspring, who carried thse genes and qualities to succeeding generations. Tekoa Mountain Patriot being one that I recall.

The genetic influence of most dogs fades rather quickly. Typically after two generations, the influence is fairly diluted. However, in some, few, dogs their genetic influence spans multiple generations. Dogs like A Rambling Rebel(pointer) are still contributing to the gene pool, through some of their progeny like Guard Rail and Nell's Rambling On. Some of Ferrel Miller's and Robert Whele's pointers continue to influence the pointer gene pool(in very different ways) to this day, and probably for several generations to come.

I think that in many different sporting breeds, folks who focus on each breed can identify individual dogs or lines of dogs that have special significance and influence to that breed.

RayG

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by weimdogman » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm

Ray G you post some good info about Sires ability to pass on traits for multiple generations.
My take on that is trainers,trialers,breeders, didn't stay with the lines thru the generations. Easy to chase a new flavor of the month. Genetics are funny and skipping a generation or 2 can really cause some to be disappointed in the sire.

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by oldbeek » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:33 pm

You guys know I love NSTRA, but I picked my present dog because of all the grandfathers AKC accomplishments in its first 24 months . Peter Gunn won every title known in 24 months, BUT, Carters had him in a trial every weekend. Like 98 in 2 years. I didn't know that when I bought her. Another great Britt is Nolans Last Bullet. something like 35 NSTRA championships. That takes over 100 Nstra trial 1st place wins and a few hundred other placements. That dog is out of nobody. Go figure that. Also he was entered heavily.
My next pup is going to be out of a NSTRA dog that is trained and handled by an amateur as his first dog. This dog has to be smart and biddable. He is a nstra champion in on year trialing in mostly his home region. In AKC you have paid judges and handlers that work the circuit. They have their favorites. In NSTRA everybody judges that is capable. We borrow and swap judges from other regions to get enough judges. Most guys will judge one day and trial their dog the next day. What goes around comes around. The computer draw keeps a favorite dog from being run behind a couple of back yard trained hunting dogs like mine. I win a lot because my dog loves the game and has a great nose. She also get a lot of time on wild quail.

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:22 am

Oldbeek
Your post is exactly my take.
But I don't think you give yourself enough credit. I remember your early posts on the problems with your dog. I think you place because you work harder than anybody else. I am impressed with handlers who train the dog they own and win with what they have. I have always liked the battle more than I like the prize. Congratulations to you.......Cj

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:29 pm

weimdogman wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Ray G you post some good info about Sires ability to pass on traits for multiple generations.
My take on that is trainers,trialers,breeders, didn't stay with the lines thru the generations. Easy to chase a new flavor of the month. Genetics are funny and skipping a generation or 2 can really cause some to be disappointed in the sire.
There are some that have stayed with lines for multiple generations. Ferrel Miller, Dan Bonaguidi, Bob Whele, T. Jack Robinson are some that did.

There is also a considerable body of data to indicate that while sire lines get the publicity, motherlines carry a larger portion of the genetic burden to succeeding generations. Nell's Rambling On is probably the most well-known pointer female in this regard, but there are others. If you look at some pedigrees with wins, you will spot females who whelped 15 to 20 or more winning dogs with 200 or more total wins of progeny. That is an AMAZING production record when you consider most females whelp four litters at most in their lifetimes and typically there are six to eight pups per litter.

When I see stuff like that in a pedigree, I often look deeper, both backwards and forward, because there is probably something special cooking.

Steeple Bell does a great job of identifying motherlines in the dogs that run in the National Championship at Ames. I don't do all age, but the influence of those all age dogs is definitely seen in many of the open shooting dogs competing...soooo it is something I do pay attention to.

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by Mosby » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:16 am

20220619_083938_remastered copy.jpg
I thought I would follow up on my Vizsla pup we discussed with a picture. This is Goose. I got him at 8 weeks and he is now 6 months old. He worked on quail for the first time last week and loves to retrieve. He is just starting out but he's smart and eager to please. I think he is going to be a fun dog to work with and I am really happy with the pup I got. Thanks again for everyone's input and advice.
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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by cjhills » Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:36 am

Mosby:
Thanks for posting the photo.
Hope he turns out to be all that you hope for.
Whether he does or not, the fun part for me is the trip, not the destination.
Enjoy the ride. Good Luck!!!!! Cj

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by deseeker » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:08 am

Thanks on the follow up & picture. Keep working with him and you'll have a good hunting dog that you will get a lot of years hunting over. :D

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Re: AKC Hunter titles: JH/SH/MH

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:45 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:54 pm
cjhills wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 7:52 am
An AA FC title in a pup's pedigree would not rule him out for me, but for many it would. They sell for half what a well bred MH or NAVHDA Pup sells for.
Most family pet/hunting dog foot hunters have no use for 400 yd dog..........Cj
To have high standards or expectations of a dog doesn't mean they will be filled by purchasing an AA bred dog. Not sure why that is even in the topic.
Ryan -
You should KNOW why the juxtaposition of high expectations and all age genetics is indeed a fact in bird dogs.

To be an all age competitive animal, the dog MUST posess EXTREME amounts of several characteristics which are crucial to the task of bird hunting. If they do noty posess boatloads of ability in several areas, including and especially independence, they will not be successful all age competitors. It is a fact that, over time, successive generations of dogs tend to lose abilities because breedings tend toward mediocrity, not the other way 'round.

The all age competitions strive to "push the envelope" of abilities in dogs, in order to identify individual dogs with "the extra juice", who can inject some of that into the general population and hopefully, maintain or even improve the ability levels in the general population.

Unfortunately, that required level of independence can result in a dog which can be difficult for the average hunter to train properly and hunt with successfully, which is why many folks shy away from that type of breeding. They simply do not need "that much dog" to hunt with.

We have seen the effect of focusing the breeding of bird dogs on things other than ability. A singular focus on "conformation" and appearance characteristics, to the exclusion of temperament and bird finding abilites has resulted in a real split in several bird dog breeds between those that hunt and those that don't. AKC Irish Setters are a textbook case in that regard.

RayG

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