Million dollar question! Setter or gsp need some help.

[Bduke7645]

Looking for my first pointing dog and just having some issue making a decision. I have a great gsp breeder not far from and some great setter breeders. Just looking for pros and cons I’ve hunted behind some great gsp but I’ve also seen some crazy "bleep" ones as well. I love the look of setters I just have been told to stay away from them because there soft and not natural retrievers and there coats. I’m located on the east coast but do a fair amount of hunting out west and we do a pre release every year of quail on my farms. So I have room for training just look for some input

[Sharon]

You'll get lots of opinions on this I'm sure , but having had a 2 GSPs and 2 setters, I was very happy with both. Both were equally trainable; training ability for retrieving etc. depended entirely on skill of the trainer and breeding ; both shed some in the Spring and Fall.

[Garrison]

Only you can make that choice. They all hunt and point birds. You have to pick what you like looking at. I currently have one of each, both very different, both great dogs. But that could be said for two pups out of the same litter. What kind of hunting are you doing out in the East? Are you in the woods?

Garrison

[Bduke7645]

So we do a large quail release on are farms in Maryland. But I spend a month + out west we have a family farm in Wakeeney Ks so many pheasant,quail, woodcock I will not duck hunt the dog

[Mosby]

I had an English Setter when I lived in PA and cleaning burrs and stickers out of his coat after hunting was a process. I don't miss it. My GSP and Vizsla coats are significantly easier to maintain. Either will be a great companion.

[oldbeek]

I have had both. I now have Brittanys and like them all. Brittanys scream to a stop in the house. My son has a very hi drive GSP that is a little crazy all the time. Brittanys, I just shave them if going to a high sticker and cockle burr area. Setters look a little butchered if you shave them. Had a gsp that shed those straight hairs worse than any long hair dog I have ever had. My 2 cents. If there is a NSTRA trial in your area, go to one. You will see almost every breed in action there. ( Just had to pitch Nstra . It is in my blood) PS Brittanys took 1 and 2 out of 192 dogs from all over the country in the Nstra Purina Challenge.

[RayGubernat]

I have had pointers all my life. I have hunted over shorthairs, setters (English and Irish), and Brittanys and I have trialed with just about every pointing breed one time or another. Most of my trialing was walking stuff early on and horseback for the last fifteen or so.

Each breed has their strong points and areas where they are less proficient ...as a breed. However, individual dogs in any of the pointing breeds can vary tremendously in their abilities and their tendencies. There is such a wide disparity in any of the major breeds, in terms of abilities, temperament, natural range, style, etc. thaat I am sure you can find what you are looking for in most any of those major breeds fairly easily. For less common breeds, like Vizslak, Pudelpointers, Wirehaired Pointing Griffons, Drathaars, Braques, and others, the available pool of puppies is much smaller, so finding a dog that suits your needs gets more difficult.

If you have top shelf breeders in your area that breed dogs that do what you want a dog to do for you... what breed it is, is far less important, I think. A good breeder will try to give you a dog that will suit your needs. They WANT you to succeed and they want the dog to succeed. Soooo... it is vital that you identify what you want...and don't want... in a bird dog, so you can communicate that to the breeder.

I would go and see some different dogs in action. Since you are interested in hunting, I would focus on walking stakes, like US Complete, AKC, NBHA or NSTRA. Since you mentioned MD, there is, unfortunately, not much of a NSTRA presence in that area, but there are numerous AKC and US Complete trials that are run in central VA, where you can watch many different breeds of dogs compete. There are also a couple that are run in MD, near Clear Spring and one that is going to be held in DE in a few weeks. You just missed a pretty nice opportunity to watch some very nice pointers and setters here in DE. They ran the Region 2 Amateur Walking Shooting Dog championship here, last weekend, and there were bunch of nice setters and pointers to watch.

Now these dogs might be a little too "hot" for your taste, but remember these are competitions and the winning dogs have to kind of "push the envelope". They have been trained and conditioned to "push that envelope".

FWIW, I have had some pretty high octane pointers over the years and they were competitive in AF and AKC horseback stakes. I hunted those exact same dogs, on foot , on preserves and on WMA's in NJ and a few times in MD. A good dog knows the difference and will suck it in and hunt to the gun.

You CAN reel in and dial a dog down some... most of the time... but it is a lot more problematic to get a sticky dog to reach out or to light the fire of desire in a dog that doesn't seem to have it.

Enjoy the search. If I can help....

RayG

They are not my cup of tea, but there are AKC and NAVHDA Hunt tests that are run in this area. An AKC senior hunter is,very often...a VERY nice bird dog. Some AKC hunt test dogs I have seen are a bit too "mechanical" and hunt too close for MY taste...but they get the job done for their owners...so who am I to criticize??
You might want to watch a hunt test, just to see what those dogs are all about.

The neat thing about tests and trials is that you get to see more dogs in one day than you would see in the field in a month, and most of the dogs you will see have been trained pretty well, because nobody enters their dog in a trial to lose.

[polmaise]

I have had pointers all my life. I have hunted over shorthairs, setters (English and Irish), and Brittanys and I have trialed with just about every pointing breed one time or another. Most of my trialing was walking stuff early on and horseback for the last fifteen or so.

Each breed has their strong points and areas where they are less proficient ...as a breed. However, individual dogs in any of the pointing breeds can vary tremendously in their abilities and their tendencies. There is such a wide disparity in any of the major breeds, in terms of abilities, temperament, natural range, style, etc. thaat I am sure you can find what you are looking for in most any of those major breeds fairly easily. For less common breeds, like Vizslak, Pudelpointers, Wirehaired Pointing Griffons, Drathaars, Braques, and others, the available pool of puppies is much smaller, so finding a dog that suits your needs gets more difficult.

If you have top shelf breeders in your area that breed dogs that do what you want a dog to do for you... ur needs.what breed it is, is far less important, I think. A good breeder will try to give you a dog that will suit yo They WANT you to succeed and they want the dog to succeed. Soooo... it is vital that you identify what you want...and don't want... in a bird dog, so you can communicate that to the breeder.

I would go and see some different dogs in action. Since you are interested in hunting, I would focus on walking stakes, like US Complete, AKC, NBHA or NSTRA. Since you mentioned MD, there is, unfortunately, not much of a NSTRA presence in that area, but there are numerous AKC and US Complete trials that are run in central VA, where you can watch many different breeds of dogs compete. There are also a couple that are run in MD, near Clear Spring and one that is going to be held in DE in a few weeks. You just missed a pretty nice opportunity to watch some very nice pointers and setters here in DE. They ran the Region 2 Amateur Walking Shooting Dog championship here, last weekend, and there were bunch of nice setters and pointers to watch.

Now these dogs might be a little too "hot" for your taste, but remember these are competitions and the winning dogs have to kind of "push the envelope". They have been trained and conditioned to "push that envelope".

FWIW, I have had some pretty high octane pointers over the years and they were competitive in AF and AKC horseback stakes. I hunted those exact same dogs, on foot , on preserves and on WMA's in NJ and a few times in MD. A good dog knows the difference and will suck it in and hunt to the gun.

You CAN reel in and dial a dog down some... most of the time... but it is a lot more problematic to get a sticky dog to reach out or to light the fire of desire in a dog that doesn't seem to have it.

Enjoy the search. If I can help....

RayG

They are not my cup of tea, but there are AKC and NAVHDA Hunt tests that are run in this area. An AKC senior hunter is,very often...a VERY nice bird dog. Some AKC hunt test dogs I have seen are a bit too "mechanical" and hunt too close for MY taste...but they get the job done for their owners...so who am I to criticize??
You might want to watch a hunt test, just to see what those dogs are all about.

The neat thing about tests and trials is that you get to see more dogs in one day than you would see in the field in a month, and most of the dogs you will see have been trained pretty well, because nobody enters their dog in a trial to lose.

To the OP , Ray's Post is worth every Dollar .
With a premise, especially the last Bold comment ! Training any breed produces the results you want , rather than the breeding on it's own, there are thousands of well bred dogs of all breeds bred by excellent trainers sitting on a porch with a well intentioned owner that wanted what the Sire and Dam could do for them ...

[NEhomer]

Please excuse in this post the lack of critical thought others have contributed to this thread and get a setter!

[Garrison]

Life is too short for one bird dog. I have had multiple setters out of well known lines, all have been great dogs to be around and good bird dogs. The old GSP was retired this year. He was a rescue that ended up at my house and came with a little baggage, no fault of his own. He is fantastic around kids, the old guy has bagged birds all over the country and filled up more than a few tailgates with chukar. Would happily own another again, but next stop is a pointer!

You can find a good family/bird dog in any of the major American/Americanized breeds. Just pick what you want to look at from lines that hunt the way you want them to hunt. I do have one stipulation in any of the breeds, I want a line of dogs that throws 50-55lb males. Larger dogs don’t tend to hold up as well where I hunt.

Drop the tailgate and let them roll a couple-few times a week and you will have a well adjusted bird dog. If you don’t work them, understandably you will probably end up with a knuckle head that no one wants to be around.

7515DF49-1295-4D91-A49D-03CADB3F1E92.jpeg

09466F30-52F4-40E9-90AF-8AB77129ED13.png

[Garrison]

Please excuse in this post the lack of critical thought others have contributed to this thread and get a setter!

I will always have one at the house! My wife will make sure of that.

[Sharon]

Such beautiful pictures! Thank you.

[Bduke7645]

Can anyone recommend a reputable setter breeder on the east coast? Or even out west I have no problem shipping a pup

[Sharon]

https://www.facebook.com/ShadyHillsKennel/

[NEhomer]

Can anyone recommend a reputable setter breeder on the east coast? Or even out west I have no problem shipping a pup

Kyle Warren and his dogs are top notch.

https://paintriverllewellins.com/

[Garrison]

Northwoods Bird Dogs
Berg Brothers Setters
Sky Dance Setters
Long Gone Setters

For the hunting you plan to do, I would probably start here. I would also check out the cover dog message board.

[greg jacobs]

Grew up with setters as a youngster. Was never a fan of long coats and cockle burrs. When I got my own place I switched to gsp's.

There is so much variation in lines in all the hunting breeds. Do your research and buy the range, speed, and whatever you want. Absolutely don't buy a 1000yd dog as a beginner. Sure you can reel them in but neither you nor the dog are going to enjoy it. Be patient. Mistakes last for a long time. I'd say for me it takes a couple years to find the right litter where there is still space. When I find that perfect litter I pull the trigger quickly.

I know gsp genetics and pedigrees so I stick with them but I absolutely know I could study for a while and find what I want in several breeds

[Garrison]

I keep my setters clipped pretty tight most of the year, it eliminates the burr issue, but the coat does require more maintenance in this regard. A slick coated dog and a soft horse brush is a pretty easy to keep.

[Bduke7645]

What about east coast gsp breeders ?

[RayGubernat]

He might not be all that close to you, but I think Bruce Shaffer of Almost Heaven GSP's in West VA. is someone I can recommend as a source of high quality GSP's. He is also a straight shooter.

RayG

[Garrison]

No personal experience, but Walnut Hill Kennels have been mentioned many times here for quality dogs.

[Bduke7645]

I’m gonna try berg brothers first there setters look amazing

[cjhills]

Iron Fire Setters who are also Bergs and were in St Cloud Mn. are now in Colorado. They have very nice Setters And Have Bred Them For Many years.
One thing if you go with the breeders suggested or other quality breeders you almost 100% sure to get as very nice dog that will be all that you expect and more. It is hard to get a bad pointing dog.........Cj

[shags]

I have a Berg Bros setter and would get another in a heartbeat. He was shipped from the kennel as a puppy, no problems whatsoever. And he's been a dream dog all his life. Well, most of it anyway
The red dog Bergs aren't the same as the white dog Bergs, but there must be some kind of lucky charm when ya combine that name and bird dogs

[Garrison]

I have a Berg Bros setter and would get another in a heartbeat. He was shipped from the kennel as a puppy, no problems whatsoever. And he's been a dream dog all his life. Well, most of it anyway
The red dog Bergs aren't the same as the white dog Bergs, but there must be some kind of lucky charm when ya combine that name and bird dogs

When I was on the hunt for my last pup, Berg Bros and Northwoods Bird Dogs were at the top of my list. Everything I read, people I spoke with, and a friend who I bought a pup from previously whom I trust very much, all had the same to say about both options. Now I do as well. I ended up with a Northwoods pup and I am sure I would of been equally happy with a pup from Berg Bros. If you look at pedigrees there is fair bit of cross pollination going on amongst the very well regarded setter breeders in Minnesota and they both have a long history of consistently providing the kind of dogs that display the natural ability that wild bird hunters want. They also have a pretty good track record of collecting ribbons in various venues too. Just take them hunting and they seem to figure it out, without much help needed from the handler.

You may need to be prepared to patiently wait, but if you do I am sure you will be happy you did. They know what it takes to put together a quality dog.

[greg jacobs]

Let them know what range of dog you want

[BlessedGirl]

Iron Fire Setters who are also Bergs and were in St Cloud Mn. are now in Colorado. They have very nice Setters And Have Bred Them For Many years.
One thing if you go with the breeders suggested or other quality breeders you almost 100% sure to get as very nice dog that will be all that you expect and more. It is hard to get a bad pointing dog.........Cj

Depending on what type of setter you're looking for, Ironfire has some awesome Red Setters. I've met several dogs from their kennel. Berg Bros appear to breed quality English Setter but I've never actually seen a dog from them.

[deseeker]

My hunting buddy has a berg bros(MN) male english setter. It's a fast hunter(it quarters, instead of running lines), has a decent nose, listens, and is the fastest out & directly back(on the run) retriever I have ever seen Plus it's a good house dog. Good luck getting your pup.

[PoorMansWrangler]

You want a hairy dog with a tail, or a not so hairy dog with no tail. Either way, very similar for the most part. Pick whichever one you like looking at and have fun

[AtTheMurph]

Besides hunting what will he dog be doing? Living in the house? Living in a kennel? Family? Big or little kids?

So much more probably goes into it than just the hunting. Lots of dogs hunt and hunt well. It is the rest of the lifestyle that I think makes the most difference.

[Garrison]

Besides hunting what will he dog be doing? Living in the house? Living in a kennel? Family? Big or little kids?

So much more probably goes into it than just the hunting. Lots of dogs hunt and hunt well. It is the rest of the lifestyle that I think makes the most difference.

This is very true, my dogs are family dogs first and bird dogs second, but this is not a mutually exclusive proposition.

It also needs to be said, there are many misconceptions floating around the inexperienced dog world and internet. If somebody thinks they need to avoid lines of dogs that have been successful in the field, particularly in trials, in favor of an obscure breed in hopes of owning a good pet, well they just haven’t been around enough bird dogs to make an informed decision.

You can find indiscriminate breedings with less than desirable results in the wiring department in breeds of all shapes and sizes. In my opinion, dogs who have been proven capable in the field, can handle the rigors of life on the road or kennel, and have taken to their training well enough to compete, are usually the same dogs that have what it takes between the ears to be a good citizen around the house too.

I would be willing to wager it is much easier to find a good pet out of a proven line of bird dogs than it is to find a good bird dog out of proven line of pets (whatever that means).

Garrison

[polmaise]

I’m gonna try berg brothers first there setters look amazing

Congratulations on your Million Dollar decision. Let us know how you get on .Have fun