Pedigree

[covrec1]

Does this dog have a good pedigree?

[Garrison]

I know nothing about the pedigree, but the two dogs being bred, the reputation of the breeder, and the reasoning behind his/her pairing of them is worth much more than names on a paper.

Garrison

[DonF]

Pedigree's are nothing more than a piece of paper, they don't hunt. And pretty much everything past the second generation is for looks and may or may not show up in the pup. Better than looking at to many pedigree's Look at living dog's, that being mom and dad. My thought on pedigrees is everything past the second generation is to boost the ego, little more!

[Steve007]

Pedigree's are nothing more than a piece of paper, they don't hunt. And pretty much everything past the second generation is for looks and may or may not show up in the pup. Better than looking at to many pedigree's Look at living dog's, that being mom and dad. My thought on pedigrees is everything past the second generation is to boost the ego, little more!

Those may be your thoughts, but they are incorrect. It is certainly true that close-up relatives are more significant than individual long-ago relatives, but the amount of genetic testing that has been done on every single dog in this pedigree -- note: with the possible exception of the dam, about whom I would certainly ask-- indicates they come from high-quality serious breeders when combined with the titles. Some may say that titles are a partial function of the owner's willingness to put money into the dog, but this is not entirely true. Not every dog can achieve advanced titles, regardless of money, and the fact that every breeder in this dog's background (again, with the previously mentioned exception) has achieved significant success certainly indicates that they come from people that are committed to the breed and are willing to prove it.

Of course, if the type of dog that can achieve these titles is not what you want, that may well be a different story, though all of the health testing is certainly exceedingly relevant. Garrison does make somewhat of a point, and I would ask about the dam, though her strong background is a positive. While I am no fan of all this outcrossing, overall, I would call this a very good pedigree, barring problems with the dam.

[Garrison]

I don’t believe any reasonable person would argue titles on a dog’s pedigree are a detriment. A history of success in competitive events, where an impartial third party verified a dog’s ability is a plus. But that is still only one part of the equation. There are lots of pups, with lots of titles on their pedigree to choose from.

In my estimation, I am not waiting in line and paying a reputable breeder for his or her breeding dogs. I am paying for all the dogs they put vast amounts of time and resources into, who also had titles on their pedigree and didn’t make the cut. We would be remiss to forget, the really good breeders usually have sold many more of those, than the ones he or she keeps in the breeding program.

I don’t have knowledge of, or the luxury to evaluate the vast number of dogs some do. I choose a breeder/trainer who is not kennel blind, evaluates lots of dogs, has a line of dogs which have a history of producing the style of dog I am looking for. They have dogs that have proven themselves over the years in competition, and they have been trained and raised by the breeder, so the breeder knows first hand where the holes are. Paper can’t do that. When all is said and done, after seeing the dogs you are getting your pup from work first hand, it’s still a crapshoot.

To the original poster, is it a good pedigree? The breeder is probably who the question should be directed to. If you are not comfortable with their guidance, it’s probably best to keep looking.

Garrison

[cjhills]

Covrec1;
It looks good to me. Don't know much about labs.
To call a pedigree just a piece of paper is beyond silly. To say that only a couple generations count is even worse.
Without a pedigree you have know idea of what you are actually buying. The dog might hunt great or be a great retriever, but may have heatlh or genetic issues we can't see. Multiple generations of health test are huge. Pedigrees are the only way we know about them.
I have five generations of one mother line. All have many of the same genetic traits(good and bad).
Also without outcrosses dogs never improve.
Base on that pedigree only, I woud say it shoud be a good dog. A little skeptical of one dog,but that is a ways back.......Cj

[Garrison]

I have five generations of one mother line. All have many of the same genetic traits(good and bad)

CJ,
I agree it’s more than paper. In your situation it is a record of your lifetime of diligence and hard work. Not every “breeder” is you, there are many with a dog or two and a set of rose colored glasses. I also agree with the health clearances aspect. But this statement in your post is telling, without your firsthand knowledge and history with the line, this part isn’t included in the pedigree for the majority of people looking for a pup. Have you passed on dogs that have had a really good looking pedigree because they didn’t perform, or did you not breed a dog again after the results were not what you were looking for?

Of course I look and try to learn about every dog in my perspective pup’s pedigree. I just value your professional judgment on the “good and the bad” of the dogs you know better than anyone, and my own two eyes a bit more than, “Is this a good pedigree strangers?”

Garrison

[RayGubernat]

First let me say I know Bupkus about labs and only a very little bit about lab trials or tests.

However,it is fairly obvious that the sire is a quality animal. Any dog that can achieve an AKC Master Hunter designation has to have demonstrated the ability to take training to a VERY high level. Anyone can say their dog does this or that spectacularly, but when it does it in front of impartial judges in a competitive format, that level of performance ability becomes fact.

The dam is something of an unknown quantity, apparently never having been tested or trialed, but there is significant evidence that the dam came from quality parentage as well.

The extensive health testing is also something that speaks to the quality of the individuals and the care with which the breedings were done.

RayG

As far as the contribution of generations farther back in a pedigree, I will say that most of the time, the impact of a particular dog tends to decrease over generations. However, there are exceptions.

There are several pointers whose positive(and some whose negative) attributes show consistently in several succeding generations, especially when there is linebreeding. I am quite sure the same thing holds with other breeds of dogs.

[DonF]

Covrec1;
It looks good to me. Don't know much about labs.
To call a pedigree just a piece of paper is beyond silly. To say that only a couple generations count is even worse.
Without a pedigree you have know idea of what you are actually buying. The dog might hunt great or be a great retriever, but may have heatlh or genetic issues we can't see. Multiple generations of health test are huge. Pedigrees are the only way we know about them.
I have five generations of one mother line. All have many of the same genetic traits(good and bad).
Also without outcrosses dogs never improve.
Base on that pedigree only, I would say it should be a good dog. A little skeptical of one dog,but that is a ways back.......Cj

So tell me, unless you make a habit of studying pedigree's just what do you know about all those dog's in a pedigree. Tekoa Mountain Sunrise had a relatively unknown father, that is until Sunrise came around! I wonder how many other dog's he threw anywhere near what Sunrise was. Sunrise threw some great dogs but I wonder what percentage of great dog he threw compared to how many he sired? Buying a puppy is a crap shoot just like any other purebred animal. Secretariat was an increadable race horse but didn't throw great race horse's. Down the road it was found his strong point was throwing mares! Peddigree's are no guarantee of any kind what kind of dog you will end up with! Robert Wehle found out the keep lines strong he had to out cross! Wow, outcross? Yep. In my experience over the years my best hunting dog's came out of backyard breeder's. You could look in the pedigree's and find champions laced all through them, didn't make them great competative dogs. Worst hunting dogs I ever had came out of Sunrise breeding. They were beautiful and looked great on birds but they also had way to much drive and would not stay with me. A pedigree does not make a dog!

[RayGubernat]

Covrec1;
It looks good to me. Don't know much about labs.
To call a pedigree just a piece of paper is beyond silly. To say that only a couple generations count is even worse.
Without a pedigree you have know idea of what you are actually buying. The dog might hunt great or be a great retriever, but may have heatlh or genetic issues we can't see. Multiple generations of health test are huge. Pedigrees are the only way we know about them.
I have five generations of one mother line. All have many of the same genetic traits(good and bad).
Also without outcrosses dogs never improve.
Base on that pedigree only, I would say it should be a good dog. A little skeptical of one dog,but that is a ways back.......Cj

So tell me, unless you make a habit of studying pedigree's just what do you know about all those dog's in a pedigree. Tekoa Mountain Sunrise had a relatively unknown father, that is until Sunrise came around! I wonder how many other dog's he threw anywhere near what Sunrise was. Sunrise threw some great dogs but I wonder what percentage of great dog he threw compared to how many he sired? Buying a puppy is a crap shoot just like any other purebred animal. Secretariat was an increadable race horse but didn't throw great race horse's. Down the road it was found his strong point was throwing mares! Peddigree's are no guarantee of any kind what kind of dog you will end up with! Robert Wehle found out the keep lines strong he had to out cross! Wow, outcross? Yep. In my experience over the years my best hunting dog's came out of backyard breeder's. You could look in the pedigree's and find champions laced all through them, didn't make them great competative dogs. Worst hunting dogs I ever had came out of Sunrise breeding. They were beautiful and looked great on birds but they also had way to much drive and would not stay with me. A pedigree does not make a dog!

Don -
What you are saying about Sunrise breeding kind of proves my point. The drive, tenacity, independence and indomitable spirit which Sunrise apparently posessed has shown itself in several succeeding generations. This can make for problems with a hunting dog, but if you want to keep the breed strong, you need individual dogs with those characteristics to inject them into the general breed population, or the performance of the breed will slowly slide.

One could say the same thing, in reverse, about Shadow Oak Bo I think. He was just inducted into the Field Trial Hall of Fame, but any the dogs have seen out of him have been FAR from all age contenders. I have seen several that would not make shooting dogs. He has produced, from what I have seen, some remarkable walking shooting dogs and, according to what i have heard, some outstanding hunting dogs. The jury is still out on Shadow Oak Bo, so we will see what happens.

I don't follow setters all that much, but I can tell you that with pointers, there are dogs whose gentic influence is still strong after several generations. Guard Rail is one of those and you probably would not have wanted to hunt behind him either. He was all "GO" and no quit. Redemption's Reward was a borderline runoff and his sire, Redemption WAS pretty much a runoff... but if you wanted a pointer that was down to the toenails tough and whose vocabulary did not include the word "quit", having some Redemption's Reward in the pedigree would go a long way toward having a litter of pups that would grow up into dogs that would hunt until they fell over on their noses.

It kinda depends on what you are looking for in a bird dog. I personally would not own an Elhew bred dog, unless it was heavy with Elhew Strike(a runoff) and Guard Rail crosses. But I like a tough, single minded dog that won't quit because that is what I grew up with. Most folks would not want to deal with the kind of dog I like. If a dog ain't got it in them to give me the 'ol fazzoole every once in a while... it ain't enough dog for me.

RayG

[kninebirddog]

So what are the Dam and Sire like do they display what you seek in a dog?
A pedigree is only icing on a cake if the cake taste horrible the prettiest frosting job isnt going to make it taste better.