new member Mike
new member Mike
(I move this here as so few members go the "New Members" thread.)
by mlese92 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:19 am
What's up everyone? My names Mike and I am 28 years old with 0 hunting experience! However, I am picking up a gsp puppy next week so I thought this would be a good place to connect with people in the community with far more experience than me. My father quail hunts and currently has a Griff.
He would like to send my pup to a hunting/obedience school around 6 months so that he can take him hunting. I think it would be good for the pup as an outlet of energy and I myself am looking to pickup some sort of novice hunting skills to take him and keep him happy. I currently work in sales for a real estate company and work from home so I have a ton of time to dedicate to training the dog.
I look forward to what is to come and engaging with everyone here!
by mlese92 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:19 am
What's up everyone? My names Mike and I am 28 years old with 0 hunting experience! However, I am picking up a gsp puppy next week so I thought this would be a good place to connect with people in the community with far more experience than me. My father quail hunts and currently has a Griff.
He would like to send my pup to a hunting/obedience school around 6 months so that he can take him hunting. I think it would be good for the pup as an outlet of energy and I myself am looking to pickup some sort of novice hunting skills to take him and keep him happy. I currently work in sales for a real estate company and work from home so I have a ton of time to dedicate to training the dog.
I look forward to what is to come and engaging with everyone here!
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: new member
welcome Mike, enjoy the forum
Penny4--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3227
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
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Re: new member
Mike -
Welcome. A GSP is a good choice of bird dogs and should do everything you will need in the uplands.
Read a few training books and if you want to know how to hunt...just follow the dog. tehy are the experts anyhow.
If you do send your dog to a trainer, try to get some time in with the trainer during the training time, for yourself, so you know how to work with the dog the same way as the trainer.
In the meantime, make friends with your pup and get into the obedience basics, but have fun with the pup while doing it.
You said you have zero experience. Experience can be over rated. Sometimes I think I have sixty + years of experience and sometimes I think I have one year of experience, repeated sixty some odd times.
Have fun and if you have questions... fire away. That is the main reason many of us are on here...to help if we can.
RayG
Welcome. A GSP is a good choice of bird dogs and should do everything you will need in the uplands.
Read a few training books and if you want to know how to hunt...just follow the dog. tehy are the experts anyhow.
If you do send your dog to a trainer, try to get some time in with the trainer during the training time, for yourself, so you know how to work with the dog the same way as the trainer.
In the meantime, make friends with your pup and get into the obedience basics, but have fun with the pup while doing it.
You said you have zero experience. Experience can be over rated. Sometimes I think I have sixty + years of experience and sometimes I think I have one year of experience, repeated sixty some odd times.
Have fun and if you have questions... fire away. That is the main reason many of us are on here...to help if we can.
RayG
Re: new member
Thanks Ray I appreciate the welcoming response. I'm sure I'll be on here frequently as the process goes on. I did have one quick question which I'm sure is answered somewhere here, but I will ask anyways. I am back and forth on whether to feed the dog 2 or 3 times a day. My plan was to use the morning meal as an opportunity for a training session. Then either an afternoon meal and dinner or just a dinner.birddogger2 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:26 pmMike -
Welcome. A GSP is a good choice of bird dogs and should do everything you will need in the uplands.
Read a few training books and if you want to know how to hunt...just follow the dog. they are the experts anyhow.
If you do send your dog to a trainer, try to get some time in with the trainer during the training time, for yourself, so you know how to work with the dog the same way as the trainer.
In the meantime, make friends with your pup and get into the obedience basics, but have fun with the pup while doing it.
You said you have zero experience. Experience can be over rated. Sometimes I think I have sixty + years of experience and sometimes I think I have one year of experience, repeated sixty some odd times.
Have fun and if you have questions... fire away. That is the main reason many of us are on here...to help if we can.
RayG
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Re: new member Mike
Mike -
When I first get a puppy, there is ample food and water available to the pup 24/7. As they get to 3 and 4 months I tend to gravitate to a morning and evening regimen.
I typically feed a growing youngster twice a day, but I do try to put down enough food so that there is a little something left when it is time to feed again. I don't feel you can really overfeed a growing, active bird dog puppy. They burn it up or poop it out...or both.
I change over from puppy food to smaller kibble adult food by the time the pup is 6 months old or so. My current 5 month old youngster is on Purina Pro Plan Performance (30/20) and has been for a few weeks now. I am feeding her twice a day and there is feed in her self feeder. She knows how to access the self feeder. The pup will occasionally raid one of the adult dogs' self feeders because they have a different feed(Sportsman's Pride Performance(26/18). The adult dogs will raid the youngster's food at every opportunity, so I close her kennel gate when they are out.
My adult dogs are all on self feeders. They do just fine, FWIW.
RayG
When I first get a puppy, there is ample food and water available to the pup 24/7. As they get to 3 and 4 months I tend to gravitate to a morning and evening regimen.
I typically feed a growing youngster twice a day, but I do try to put down enough food so that there is a little something left when it is time to feed again. I don't feel you can really overfeed a growing, active bird dog puppy. They burn it up or poop it out...or both.
I change over from puppy food to smaller kibble adult food by the time the pup is 6 months old or so. My current 5 month old youngster is on Purina Pro Plan Performance (30/20) and has been for a few weeks now. I am feeding her twice a day and there is feed in her self feeder. She knows how to access the self feeder. The pup will occasionally raid one of the adult dogs' self feeders because they have a different feed(Sportsman's Pride Performance(26/18). The adult dogs will raid the youngster's food at every opportunity, so I close her kennel gate when they are out.
My adult dogs are all on self feeders. They do just fine, FWIW.
RayG
Re: new member Mike
Gotcha. So you basically free feed until about 3 months. I naturally do maybe TOO much research and saw alot about bloat and when to feed vs exercise so it made me nervous about a certain routine. Do you have a cap for the food like over 3-4 cups if my pup is a monster and just nonstop eats?
This is also super helpful coming from an experienced owner. Of course online you will read all sorts of things.
This is also super helpful coming from an experienced owner. Of course online you will read all sorts of things.
Re: new member Mike
I always believe you Ray , but.... if I free fed my JRT it would eat non stop.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: new member Mike
Mike,
Welcome and congrats on the new pup.
Feeding your pup can depend on several factors. There's a big difference between a nine week old puppy and a six month old. Where is your dog going to be housed? Does the pup tend to burn calories as fast as he consumes them, or is he an easy keeper?
IME little baby pups have done well on 3-4 small meals a day; as house dogs, regular feeding times means regular bathroom breaks for them and leads to easier housebreaking. Sometimes fewer but larger meals can lead to the squirts. As the pup gets older I drop the middle of the day feedings. I used to feed morning and evening, but in the past few years find that feeding in the late afternoon works best for our schedule; my dogs get a handful of kibble early in the morning because it prevents bile vomiting but doesn't interfere with running them a couple of hours later.
I've never had a picky eater, and I believe it's because the dogs get 5-10 minutes to eat before the bowl gets picked up until the next mealtime. I like that my dogs don't pick at kibble all day long, because I know immediately if one of them is feeling off - they just don't miss meals when they feel good. The one down side to scheduled meals is that my dogs have learned to tell time and start to nag about 10 minutes before dinner hour
There isn't a right way or wrong way to feed as long as your dog stays healthy and fit with it, and the schedule suits you.
You'll find a wealth of information and a world of experience here. Good luck with your pup.
Welcome and congrats on the new pup.
Feeding your pup can depend on several factors. There's a big difference between a nine week old puppy and a six month old. Where is your dog going to be housed? Does the pup tend to burn calories as fast as he consumes them, or is he an easy keeper?
IME little baby pups have done well on 3-4 small meals a day; as house dogs, regular feeding times means regular bathroom breaks for them and leads to easier housebreaking. Sometimes fewer but larger meals can lead to the squirts. As the pup gets older I drop the middle of the day feedings. I used to feed morning and evening, but in the past few years find that feeding in the late afternoon works best for our schedule; my dogs get a handful of kibble early in the morning because it prevents bile vomiting but doesn't interfere with running them a couple of hours later.
I've never had a picky eater, and I believe it's because the dogs get 5-10 minutes to eat before the bowl gets picked up until the next mealtime. I like that my dogs don't pick at kibble all day long, because I know immediately if one of them is feeling off - they just don't miss meals when they feel good. The one down side to scheduled meals is that my dogs have learned to tell time and start to nag about 10 minutes before dinner hour
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
There isn't a right way or wrong way to feed as long as your dog stays healthy and fit with it, and the schedule suits you.
You'll find a wealth of information and a world of experience here. Good luck with your pup.
Re: new member Mike
Welcome to the group Mike and good luck with the pup. I have an 8 mos old German Wirehair along with two other bird dogs. I feed the pup twice a day to make sure I can supervise it. Other wise the big hogs will steal it from the puppy if she walks away.
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Re: new member Mike
Guys -
I only had one dog that would eat nonstop. I got her as a year old started dog and she had been in a kennel. She would wolf down her food as soon as it was placed in front of her, so I assumed that was how she was trained to eat...like a field trial dog. Put it down and ten minutes later pick up the bow to clean it out and put it away for the next day.
I always liked to feed them enough to have a little left in the bowl, so the dog never felt hungry. i also hate aggressive dogs and that kind of eating habit contributes to that I think. This liitle girl was out of some of the toughest field trial blood on the planet. Warhoop Jake on top and bottom, mixed in with Rebel blood. Jake was, by all accounts a flat out aggressive dog and a fighter and died in a kennel fight, with one of his sons, I think. My little girl was down to the toenails tough for certain. I believe the only reason I got her was that she had a crooked tail.
Soooo, I went to the grocery store and bought a 50# bag of the cheapest dogfood they had. Then Saturday morning I filled up her food bowl and she devoured it. I filled it up again and she devoured it. After about four bowls she looked up at me with sad eyes when I was filling it up again. She was swole up like a tick. I patted her up and talked to her for a while. Every time the bowl was empty, I re-filled it. She tried her darndest to empty the bowl...but it was a 50# bag and she was about a 40# dog.
By Sunday night...there was a full bowl of food and she was asleep in her coop next to it. The piles of poop were, in a word...prodigious, for the next few days.
She understood, from then on, that there was no urgency to eat every morsel because no one would take it away or eat it on her. And in the process, I became her hero.
Never had a Jack Russell or Lab, just pointers.
I start all my current pups on puppy food in a dish and transition to self feeders as they get older. The few times they are at field trials and have to eat out of bowls, they generally are pretty hungry in the evening, so they do OK. I do usually bait their kibble with some Gainesburger type soft food and mix in some water, so they think it is a treat and usually eat it with gusto.
RayG
I only had one dog that would eat nonstop. I got her as a year old started dog and she had been in a kennel. She would wolf down her food as soon as it was placed in front of her, so I assumed that was how she was trained to eat...like a field trial dog. Put it down and ten minutes later pick up the bow to clean it out and put it away for the next day.
I always liked to feed them enough to have a little left in the bowl, so the dog never felt hungry. i also hate aggressive dogs and that kind of eating habit contributes to that I think. This liitle girl was out of some of the toughest field trial blood on the planet. Warhoop Jake on top and bottom, mixed in with Rebel blood. Jake was, by all accounts a flat out aggressive dog and a fighter and died in a kennel fight, with one of his sons, I think. My little girl was down to the toenails tough for certain. I believe the only reason I got her was that she had a crooked tail.
Soooo, I went to the grocery store and bought a 50# bag of the cheapest dogfood they had. Then Saturday morning I filled up her food bowl and she devoured it. I filled it up again and she devoured it. After about four bowls she looked up at me with sad eyes when I was filling it up again. She was swole up like a tick. I patted her up and talked to her for a while. Every time the bowl was empty, I re-filled it. She tried her darndest to empty the bowl...but it was a 50# bag and she was about a 40# dog.
By Sunday night...there was a full bowl of food and she was asleep in her coop next to it. The piles of poop were, in a word...prodigious, for the next few days.
She understood, from then on, that there was no urgency to eat every morsel because no one would take it away or eat it on her. And in the process, I became her hero.
Never had a Jack Russell or Lab, just pointers.
I start all my current pups on puppy food in a dish and transition to self feeders as they get older. The few times they are at field trials and have to eat out of bowls, they generally are pretty hungry in the evening, so they do OK. I do usually bait their kibble with some Gainesburger type soft food and mix in some water, so they think it is a treat and usually eat it with gusto.
RayG
Re: new member Mike
Alright so what I'm gathering is that there really isn't a wrong way necessarily to feed the pup as long as I am being somewhat consistent and guaging how he responds to it all.
To answer your question Shags, he will be kept in the house and his exercise would be me just taking him somewhere like an open field to burn off that energy. Of course early on I know they are not going to be run super hard and just need a bit to burn off some of that crazy energy. If I feed 3-4 times a day is there a period of time after or before eating I should be waiting before going to exercise hard? An hour both sides seems to be what I would think. As far as burning the calories as fast as he consumes them, how exactly are you monitoring that?
Ray, thanks for that story. I think if my pup is exercising enough it shouldn't be something to stress tooo too much as it relates to over eating.
To answer your question Shags, he will be kept in the house and his exercise would be me just taking him somewhere like an open field to burn off that energy. Of course early on I know they are not going to be run super hard and just need a bit to burn off some of that crazy energy. If I feed 3-4 times a day is there a period of time after or before eating I should be waiting before going to exercise hard? An hour both sides seems to be what I would think. As far as burning the calories as fast as he consumes them, how exactly are you monitoring that?
Ray, thanks for that story. I think if my pup is exercising enough it shouldn't be something to stress tooo too much as it relates to over eating.
Re: new member Mike
When puppies are little enough to be fed several times a day, I don't even think about structured exercise. IME it goes eat, go out and poop, then take a nap. After the nap they they're ready for fun... Just take them out in the yard and let them explore and mess around however they want and when they're tired they quit. We've always gone out with the pups for yard walks...it's a good time to observe and assess behaviors, to make sure they don't get into trouble, and to keep them moving (albeit at their own pace).
As they get older they're able to stay out longer and little by little we expand their world with walks in the field and woods. By somewhere around 4-5 months they're doing what I might call running, and are for sure by 6 months. I always bring them in before they're exhausted, and that depends on each dog.
I give them them a couple of hours at least after their meal before runs but like much more time in between; sometimes it's a decision whether the exercise or the meal being on schedule is more important and adjust appropriately.
Monitor your pup's body condition to judge if he's eating enough or if he needs more. I don't like a big fat roly poly pup, but I want his bones pretty well cushioned so he isn't skinny. Use your eyes and hands and don't go by what it says on the dog food bag...the amounts on there are guidelines, not rules.
As they get older they're able to stay out longer and little by little we expand their world with walks in the field and woods. By somewhere around 4-5 months they're doing what I might call running, and are for sure by 6 months. I always bring them in before they're exhausted, and that depends on each dog.
I give them them a couple of hours at least after their meal before runs but like much more time in between; sometimes it's a decision whether the exercise or the meal being on schedule is more important and adjust appropriately.
Monitor your pup's body condition to judge if he's eating enough or if he needs more. I don't like a big fat roly poly pup, but I want his bones pretty well cushioned so he isn't skinny. Use your eyes and hands and don't go by what it says on the dog food bag...the amounts on there are guidelines, not rules.
Re: new member Mike
Thanks shags. This has been all super helpful information. This has given me a good idea of time frame and what to be looking for. I appreciate you guys providing thought out responses.
Re: new member Mike
Keep in mind there are no hard and fast correct answers, and we all have our own variations for feeding and exercise routines. It's all in figuring out what works in your household with your dog and your schedule. You can see that in Ray's response and mine...just different methods that produce good results.
You'll figure it out...enjoy it. Hopefully you are in for a really good ride.
You'll figure it out...enjoy it. Hopefully you are in for a really good ride.
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Re: new member Mike
Mike -mlese92 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:32 amAlright so what I'm gathering is that there really isn't a wrong way necessarily to feed the pup as long as I am being somewhat consistent and guaging how he responds to it all.
To answer your question Shags, he will be kept in the house and his exercise would be me just taking him somewhere like an open field to burn off that energy. Of course early on I know they are not going to be run super hard and just need a bit to burn off some of that crazy energy. If I feed 3-4 times a day is there a period of time after or before eating I should be waiting before going to exercise hard? An hour both sides seems to be what I would think. As far as burning the calories as fast as he consumes them, how exactly are you monitoring that?
Ray, thanks for that story. I think if my pup is exercising enough it shouldn't be something to stress tooo too much as it relates to over eating.
As long as the dog is growing, alert and is full of energy, you are doing fine. I am with Shags on not wanting a pot belly pig instead of a bird dog, but be aware that puppies plump up...then grow out and get skinny...then they go through the process again and again until they are about a year plus. Just keep food available to your pup, however you choose to. He will probably eat what he wants and be fine.
I like my dogs to carry just a bit of fat as adults. I think it gives them something to fall back on when they are working extra hard. Lots of folks I know who trial their dogs want them thinner than I do. No right answer, just personal preference. I don't like it when a dog of mine runs out of gas because that means I didn't do my job as their trainer well enough.
My gauge is their ribs. On a properly conditioned and muscled up dog, if I can "just" see the rise and fall of the individual ribs when the dog is close to me, I'm happy with that. If I can see its ribs from across the yard, the dog is too thin for me.
As far as exercising my dogs hard, I prefer they do that on an empty stomach. With a GSP there is always the issue of stomach torsion to consider. They seem to be more prone to it than pointers, especially as they get older. I tend to give my dogs an opportunity to empty out prior to asking them to do a hard run. More often than not, when I walk them around first, the dog is quite eager to "lighten the load" before running. I guess it is a habit I encourage.
Hope some of this helps.
RayG
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Re: new member Mike
Welcome aboard. I've always enjoyed Ray''s insights on the various boards over the years
Re: new member Mike
Mike -
As far as exercising my dogs hard, I prefer they do that on an empty stomach. With a GSP there is always the issue of stomach torsion to consider. They seem to be more prone to it than pointers, especially as they get older. I tend to give my dogs an opportunity to empty out prior to asking them to do a hard run. More often than not, when I walk them around first, the dog is quite eager to "lighten the load" before running. I guess it is a habit I encourage.
Hope some of this helps.
RayG
[/quote]
..........................................................................................
This is all very helpful. I appreciate your insight and knowledge. I tend to overthink these things so it's good to know there is not really one "right" way as it depends on the dog. The concept though of not worrying early on about the dog over eating is definitely comforting though. I would probably have just followed the food bag honestly exactly. I got taste of the wild Taste of the Wild High Prairie Puppy Fo ... y Dog Food after some research. It seemed comparable to purina for less money and the ingredient profile looked strong to me.
Thanks again everyone for the advice.
As far as exercising my dogs hard, I prefer they do that on an empty stomach. With a GSP there is always the issue of stomach torsion to consider. They seem to be more prone to it than pointers, especially as they get older. I tend to give my dogs an opportunity to empty out prior to asking them to do a hard run. More often than not, when I walk them around first, the dog is quite eager to "lighten the load" before running. I guess it is a habit I encourage.
Hope some of this helps.
RayG
[/quote]
..........................................................................................
This is all very helpful. I appreciate your insight and knowledge. I tend to overthink these things so it's good to know there is not really one "right" way as it depends on the dog. The concept though of not worrying early on about the dog over eating is definitely comforting though. I would probably have just followed the food bag honestly exactly. I got taste of the wild Taste of the Wild High Prairie Puppy Fo ... y Dog Food after some research. It seemed comparable to purina for less money and the ingredient profile looked strong to me.
Thanks again everyone for the advice.
Re: new member Mike
I don't usually jump in on "feed this, not that" conversations usually what ever works is fine, but I would think twice about TOTW.
It's a grain free feed, which means it uses peas, potatoes, and other legumes. Did you know that those together with a lack of the usual by products in dog food have been linked to heart failure? The problem is that those ingredients along with the lack of organ meats and other by products inhibit the production and uptake of taurine which keeps heart muscles strong. Taurine is not listed as an additive in TOTW. Talk to your vet about adding a taurine supplement to your pup's diet if you otherwise like TOTW. You might want to have your dog's taurine levels checked periodically throughout life to make sure he's not affected by a deficit.
https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/st ... t-disease/
Also, did you know the the buffalo is sourced from India?
It's a grain free feed, which means it uses peas, potatoes, and other legumes. Did you know that those together with a lack of the usual by products in dog food have been linked to heart failure? The problem is that those ingredients along with the lack of organ meats and other by products inhibit the production and uptake of taurine which keeps heart muscles strong. Taurine is not listed as an additive in TOTW. Talk to your vet about adding a taurine supplement to your pup's diet if you otherwise like TOTW. You might want to have your dog's taurine levels checked periodically throughout life to make sure he's not affected by a deficit.
https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/st ... t-disease/
Also, did you know the the buffalo is sourced from India?
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Re: new member Mike
Mike _
I also hesitate to comment on dogfood choices.
However, I would urge you and anyone else to look into whether or not a particular dogfood brand is actually manufactured BY the company that is selling it. Some dogfood companies only manufacture advertisements and buy their feeds from suppliers.
That is not intrinsically bad, but it does raise questions about which part of their business is most important to them.
For the record, I have fed quite a number of different feeds over the years and since I have several dogs...price is a factor. Most of the times when I have switched from one feed to another, it has been more of a question of availability than anything else. There were a couple of instances where one or more of the dogs did not react well to particular feed, but for the most part, the feed I was using became difficult to obtain in my area , or the company was bought out by another and the feed I was using was discontinued.
There are a goodly number of quality feeds out there. I currently(for the last 5-8 years) use a Sportsman's Pride product for my dogs and am quite happy with it.
RayG
I also hesitate to comment on dogfood choices.
However, I would urge you and anyone else to look into whether or not a particular dogfood brand is actually manufactured BY the company that is selling it. Some dogfood companies only manufacture advertisements and buy their feeds from suppliers.
That is not intrinsically bad, but it does raise questions about which part of their business is most important to them.
For the record, I have fed quite a number of different feeds over the years and since I have several dogs...price is a factor. Most of the times when I have switched from one feed to another, it has been more of a question of availability than anything else. There were a couple of instances where one or more of the dogs did not react well to particular feed, but for the most part, the feed I was using became difficult to obtain in my area , or the company was bought out by another and the feed I was using was discontinued.
There are a goodly number of quality feeds out there. I currently(for the last 5-8 years) use a Sportsman's Pride product for my dogs and am quite happy with it.
RayG
Re: new member Mike
I am definitely open to suggestions. I'd rather be out the 50 bucks I spent than give my dog poor quality food. I read many reviews and TOTW had alot of positives going for it but again, these people may not have years of experience. It does say there is 175 IU of Taurine but I am not sure what kind of additive it comes from. I don't have any preference to food other than my own knowledge of nutrition and what I've read to be important for working dogs like GSP's.shags wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:08 amI don't usually jump in on "feed this, not that" conversations usually what ever works is fine, but I would think twice about TOTW.
It's a grain free feed, which means it uses peas, potatoes, and other legumes. Did you know that those together with a lack of the usual by products in dog food have been linked to heart failure? The problem is that those ingredients along with the lack of organ meats and other by products inhibit the production and uptake of taurine which keeps heart muscles strong. Taurine is not listed as an additive in TOTW. Talk to your vet about adding a taurine supplement to your pup's diet if you otherwise like TOTW. You might want to have your dog's taurine levels checked periodically throughout life to make sure he's not affected by a deficit.
https://todaysveterinarypractice.com/st ... t-disease/
Also, did you know the the buffalo is sourced from India?
If he will be more a companion family dog than an actual hunting dog, I know that will affect food choice. From my understanding, if he was to do a bit of hunting but not much throughout the year, a good food would provide a high protein/fat ratio. I am open to non grain free foods if they are better for this breed as well. Please feel free to provide your insight. Victor Hi pro also has come up alot in research.
new member Mike
I have been all over the place on feed because of my new pup. He seems to react badly to chicken, although we haven’t done extensive diet testing to confirm. This meant we had to move away from Fromm Gold Large Breed Puppy. Anything with chicken in it gives him the runs.
My vet does not recommend Purina, stating quality control and recalls as reasons. She is an amazing vet and she is also into things like grain free feeds and acupuncture. Her recommendation is that grain free diets are not the problem, but exotic ingredients are. Unfortunately, most of her recommended brands would be classified as boutique (continue in to read about BEG).
So, I did some research. It seems to me that she is only acknowledging part of the study in her opinion. The vet university nutritionist that I link to below recommends against BEG: boutique, exotic, and grain free.
It is not just that the food should contain Taurine. There is suspicion (to be researched now) that the legumes found in grain free diets are inhibiting the dog’s ability to produce and use Taurine. If that is found to be true, supplementing would not be an effective alternative.
Here are two articles to look into:
https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/06/ ... gredients/
https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/
These articles are especially of caution to me, because some of the research is in Golden Retrievers and I have two.
Here is the FDA article that names a bunch of foods (including Fromm Gold and Taste of the Wild).
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/questions-answers-fda-center-veterinary-medicines-investigation-possible-connection-between-diet-and#brands
I have not found a food yet that ticks all of the boxes. Of all the brands recommended by my vet, I see problems with grain free, legumes, chicken (a problem for my pup), or other disqualifiers. I am feeding PPP Puppy Sensitive Skin & Stomach. He makes nice little logs in the backyard now.
The AAFCO statement on PPP SS&S includes growth of large breed dogs. While Purina has had recalls, Purina Pro Plan dry foods have not. The only problem is that it contains Salmon, which was named as an exotic ingredient. I simply haven’t found anything better that doesn’t contain chicken.
My vet does not recommend Purina, stating quality control and recalls as reasons. She is an amazing vet and she is also into things like grain free feeds and acupuncture. Her recommendation is that grain free diets are not the problem, but exotic ingredients are. Unfortunately, most of her recommended brands would be classified as boutique (continue in to read about BEG).
So, I did some research. It seems to me that she is only acknowledging part of the study in her opinion. The vet university nutritionist that I link to below recommends against BEG: boutique, exotic, and grain free.
It is not just that the food should contain Taurine. There is suspicion (to be researched now) that the legumes found in grain free diets are inhibiting the dog’s ability to produce and use Taurine. If that is found to be true, supplementing would not be an effective alternative.
Here are two articles to look into:
https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/06/ ... gredients/
https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/
These articles are especially of caution to me, because some of the research is in Golden Retrievers and I have two.
Here is the FDA article that names a bunch of foods (including Fromm Gold and Taste of the Wild).
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/questions-answers-fda-center-veterinary-medicines-investigation-possible-connection-between-diet-and#brands
I have not found a food yet that ticks all of the boxes. Of all the brands recommended by my vet, I see problems with grain free, legumes, chicken (a problem for my pup), or other disqualifiers. I am feeding PPP Puppy Sensitive Skin & Stomach. He makes nice little logs in the backyard now.
The AAFCO statement on PPP SS&S includes growth of large breed dogs. While Purina has had recalls, Purina Pro Plan dry foods have not. The only problem is that it contains Salmon, which was named as an exotic ingredient. I simply haven’t found anything better that doesn’t contain chicken.
Re: new member Mike
Thank you for that granite. I will look into those articles and try and decide on potentially grain included diet for my dog. I thought my research was enough to lead me to TOTW but it seems that is not the case.
Re: new member Mike
After many years on this forum, hunting/training with many friends and family with their bird dogs and owning more than a couple of dogs at a time myself the past decades, I have noticed a curious phenomenon.
It seems that dietary sensitivities and shopping for holistic grain free diets are mutually exclusive and limited to single dog “parents” who switch food a lot. While at the same time, there are dog owners, professional breeders and trainers who have more dogs than most of us will own in a lifetime in their kennel, who have fed the same ration for many many years without a single issue.
My advice would be to pick a grain inclusive ration that has proven to work for the top dogs in the country over the decades, feed the correct amount for the proper body condition, and save the mental exercise for something more worthwhile.
It seems that dietary sensitivities and shopping for holistic grain free diets are mutually exclusive and limited to single dog “parents” who switch food a lot. While at the same time, there are dog owners, professional breeders and trainers who have more dogs than most of us will own in a lifetime in their kennel, who have fed the same ration for many many years without a single issue.
My advice would be to pick a grain inclusive ration that has proven to work for the top dogs in the country over the decades, feed the correct amount for the proper body condition, and save the mental exercise for something more worthwhile.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-
- Mark Twain-
Re: new member Mike
Where is the like button?Garrison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:17 pmAfter many years on this forum, hunting/training with many friends and family with their bird dogs and owning more than a couple of dogs at a time myself the past decades, I have noticed a curious phenomenon.
It seems that dietary sensitivities and shopping for holistic grain free diets are mutually exclusive and limited to single dog “parents” who switch food a lot. While at the same time, there are dog owners, professional breeders and trainers who have more dogs than most of us will own in a lifetime in their kennel, who have fed the same ration for many many years without a single issue.
My advice would be to pick a grain inclusive ration that has proven to work for the top dogs in the country over the decades, feed the correct amount for the proper body condition, and save the mental exercise for something more worthwhile.
Re: new member Mike
I love this response. I think it probably goes hand in hand with what the "in" thing is for dieting versus what has historically worked. Thank you for this. That being said, can you just tell me what that proven food is to make it easyGarrison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:17 pmAfter many years on this forum, hunting/training with many friends and family with their bird dogs and owning more than a couple of dogs at a time myself the past decades, I have noticed a curious phenomenon.
It seems that dietary sensitivities and shopping for holistic grain free diets are mutually exclusive and limited to single dog “parents” who switch food a lot. While at the same time, there are dog owners, professional breeders and trainers who have more dogs than most of us will own in a lifetime in their kennel, who have fed the same ration for many many years without a single issue.
My advice would be to pick a grain inclusive ration that has proven to work for the top dogs in the country over the decades, feed the correct amount for the proper body condition, and save the mental exercise for something more worthwhile.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Re: new member Mike
Absolutely agree guys, but why is nobody saying it? I'll stick my neck out. ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Pro Plan Puppy to Pro Plan Adult
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Pro Plan Puppy to Pro Plan Adult
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: new member Mike
Thank you Sharon! Lol that's what I have in my cart and was waiting for a response to just checkout and be done with it.
Re: new member Mike
I have tried different foods with my dogs over the years, usually to try and save a couple bucks; Loyall, Victor, Eukanuba, Costco, they did well on all of them because they are all solid foods from reputable companies. But they have always seemed to do the best on PPP, their coats and skin look better, stools are always better and they have plenty of energy. So that’s what we settled on and they get it from cradle to grave.mlese92 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:15 pmI love this response. I think it probably goes hand in hand with what the "in" thing is for dieting versus what has historically worked. Thank you for this. That being said, can you just tell me what that proven food is to make it easyGarrison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:17 pmAfter many years on this forum, hunting/training with many friends and family with their bird dogs and owning more than a couple of dogs at a time myself the past decades, I have noticed a curious phenomenon.
It seems that dietary sensitivities and shopping for holistic grain free diets are mutually exclusive and limited to single dog “parents” who switch food a lot. While at the same time, there are dog owners, professional breeders and trainers who have more dogs than most of us will own in a lifetime in their kennel, who have fed the same ration for many many years without a single issue.
My advice would be to pick a grain inclusive ration that has proven to work for the top dogs in the country over the decades, feed the correct amount for the proper body condition, and save the mental exercise for something more worthwhile.![]()
Bottom line, a hard working dog should be fed a grain inclusive 30/20 ration (my dogs hold weight better and coats look the best when that grain is corn). Feed a pup a few times a day and don’t let them get fat, I feed my adult dogs once a day in the evening so they can be exercised the next day. As stated before, dogs have much greater stamina on a high fat diet while running on an empty stomach, it is also better for them physically to run with an empty stomach.
Lots of good brands, I as well as many others have found good consistent results feeding Purina Pro Plan Performance (All Life Stages). The overwhelming majority of the top Field Trial dogs in the country eat the same from the time they are weaned and most of the best in show dogs are fed purina as well. Dogs would not be able to compete at the top level in both venues and live long healthy lives if what they were being fed didn’t take care of all their needs.
Read the dog, not the bag or brochure and don’t listen to any website rankings or a $10 an hour box store employee. Your dog and the proven results in the hobby over the years is a much more credible source.
Garrison
Last edited by Garrison on Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-
- Mark Twain-
Re: new member Mike
Awesome Garrison. That's what I'll go with and stick to. I appreciate your thought out response and taking the time to lay it out for someone who is completely new to this.
I'll give some updates once the dog gets settled in next week.
I'll give some updates once the dog gets settled in next week.
Re: new member Mike
No problem, I had the same questions at one point too, I received the same answers I just gave you. Personal experience through the years proved those responses to be absolutely true. I don’t expect that your results will be any different.
Good luck with the pup. With the right attitude raising and training bird dogs is one heck of a fun ride!
Garrison
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
- Mark Twain-
- Mark Twain-
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Re: new member Mike
Garrison -
Thank you. Well said.
If I had just one dog...it would be on Purina Pro Plan Performance(30/20). No question in my mind.
Purina is available anywhere in the country and is one of the very few feeds that are backed by company sponsored animal research and the additional cost to feed just one dog is really negligible. Its formula is what a high energy, high performance dog needs.
It is also my understanding that many feed companies adjust their formulas to compensate for the rising and falling prices of grain, meat and other major feedstocks. which may explain why some dogs(including my own), on different feeds experience occasional changes in their stool and general appearance. It is my understanding that Purina DOES NOT do that, but rather, they maintain the same formula regardless of the current commodity price for the various components. I strongly suspect feeds like Hills Science Diet also maintain their same formulas.
FWIW, for many years I used to feed Kasco puppy to my new recruits, but when that company disappeared, I began feeding Purina Puppy. Zero issues. Great results.
RayG
Thank you. Well said.
If I had just one dog...it would be on Purina Pro Plan Performance(30/20). No question in my mind.
Purina is available anywhere in the country and is one of the very few feeds that are backed by company sponsored animal research and the additional cost to feed just one dog is really negligible. Its formula is what a high energy, high performance dog needs.
It is also my understanding that many feed companies adjust their formulas to compensate for the rising and falling prices of grain, meat and other major feedstocks. which may explain why some dogs(including my own), on different feeds experience occasional changes in their stool and general appearance. It is my understanding that Purina DOES NOT do that, but rather, they maintain the same formula regardless of the current commodity price for the various components. I strongly suspect feeds like Hills Science Diet also maintain their same formulas.
FWIW, for many years I used to feed Kasco puppy to my new recruits, but when that company disappeared, I began feeding Purina Puppy. Zero issues. Great results.
RayG
Re: new member Mike
Thank you both again. I myself am big into nutrition so naturally I was going to be anal about what I give my dog. I decided on the PPP puppy lamb and rice formula which I believe was like 28/17 if I'm not mistaken. I will look into the performance line if my dog actually begins to get into the fields on a regular basis. I suspect with my dad only being a novice hunter, the pup would really only go a few times a year so I didn't think the highest performing Purina was necessary unless that ramped up.
I am grateful that experienced people like yourselves would spend time writing out long responses to help me understand this topic in detail as I'm sure you could have told me to just search the forum for answers. Hope you guys have a great week!
I am grateful that experienced people like yourselves would spend time writing out long responses to help me understand this topic in detail as I'm sure you could have told me to just search the forum for answers. Hope you guys have a great week!
Re: new member Mike
Just don't fall into the trap of equating dog nutrition and people nutrition. That's what drives the boutique feeds "Feed 'em like family" type of nonsense.
By the way, where are the pictures of that puppy? If no pictures, it didn't happen, so.....
Re: new member Mike
I completely agree. Hahaha I pick him up Friday. But I attached some pictures from the breeder.
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Re: new member Mike
Mike -
Awesome looking little guy. I hope he is everything you hoped for and if he is, I'll bet you get out with him more than a few times a year.
FWIW, some folks change feeds in the summer to a less potent formula. NONE of the pro trainers I know(and I know several), do that. They just feed less.
The easiest way for me to judge the condition of an adult on short haired dog like a GSP, is to look straight down at them from front to back. On and adult dog( over 12months) if you see an hourglass shape type tuck in, where the chest meets the abdomen and then back out when the abdomen meets the back legs...the dog is probably a pretty good weight. I will put my dogs between my legs when I am checking them for ticks, cleaning their ears and such, and look straight down.
Enjoy. Love those eyes on your little guy.
RayG
Awesome looking little guy. I hope he is everything you hoped for and if he is, I'll bet you get out with him more than a few times a year.
FWIW, some folks change feeds in the summer to a less potent formula. NONE of the pro trainers I know(and I know several), do that. They just feed less.
The easiest way for me to judge the condition of an adult on short haired dog like a GSP, is to look straight down at them from front to back. On and adult dog( over 12months) if you see an hourglass shape type tuck in, where the chest meets the abdomen and then back out when the abdomen meets the back legs...the dog is probably a pretty good weight. I will put my dogs between my legs when I am checking them for ticks, cleaning their ears and such, and look straight down.
Enjoy. Love those eyes on your little guy.
RayG
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Re: new member Mike
Love that little line on the face which I call a "chinook"![🙂](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/emojione/assets/3.1/png/64/1f642.png)
I dont know where or how I came up with that term,but I believe a gap has to have it!![😉](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/emojione/assets/3.1/png/64/1f609.png)
![🙂](http://cdn.jsdelivr.net/emojione/assets/3.1/png/64/1f642.png)
I dont know where or how I came up with that term,but I believe a gap has to have it!
![😉](http://cdn.jsdelivr.net/emojione/assets/3.1/png/64/1f609.png)
Re: new member Mike
Thanks Ray. I'll certainly keep that in mind. I'd imagine I don't have to worry too much about weight as they grow since he'll be buring so much energy in that first year. It'll be after that I need to pay attention a bit more.birddogger2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:35 amMike -
Awesome looking little guy. I hope he is everything you hoped for and if he is, I'll bet you get out with him more than a few times a year.
FWIW, some folks change feeds in the summer to a less potent formula. NONE of the pro trainers I know(and I know several), do that. They just feed less.
The easiest way for me to judge the condition of an adult on short haired dog like a GSP, is to look straight down at them from front to back. On and adult dog( over 12months) if you see an hourglass shape type tuck in, where the chest meets the abdomen and then back out when the abdomen meets the back legs...the dog is probably a pretty good weight. I will put my dogs between my legs when I am checking them for ticks, cleaning their ears and such, and look straight down.
Enjoy. Love those eyes on your little guy.
RayG
He's a good looking pup but I'm biased! Can't wait for all the trouble this little guy is going to bring.
And thanks Weimdogman. My girlfriend said we had to choose him because of that little line. He was the only one in the litter with it so we decided to take home the "different" one.
Re: new member Mike
Nice looking pup ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Penny4--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3227
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Re: new member Mike
Finally got this little guy Friday! He’s adjusting quite nicely! Besides the sleeping in a crate at night of course but that’s to be expected.
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Re: new member Mike
AAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Puppy
. Good looking pup. Thanx for sharing pics and hopefully more to come.
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Re: new member Mike
Thanks! I'm sure there is a better thread to be posting these, but I have a hilarious one below I had to share!
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Re: new member Mike
That's some big mitts on that puppy. ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Re: new member Mike
Needle teeth!!
Re: new member Mike
I never had a dog until I retired and got a 2-month-old GSP. At the time I did not know if I would have any success; all I knew was that I had always wanted to have a GSP companion. During the first year he learned rapidly to be a calm indoor dog. Outdoors was difficult because he was easily distracted outside and pulled hard on leash. During his second year he become more pleasurable to walk on leash. Now 3 years later I am grateful to myself for my effort to learn and to raise my GSP because he seems to put my needs on the same level as his (such as stopping his trot when I stop, seeking my opinion of which way to go, coming when I say “come” even though he may want to stop to investigate something).
My learning process:
- Talk with owners of GSP dogs
- Books, web videos, Gundog Forum, etc. gave me many opinions for care and training (for example – carrot vs stick training, use of food rewards or not, types of collars, showing physical dominance or not, etc.). I really liked videos by “Aytee” in the UK because I witnessed respect and compassion by the trainer of her GSP gundogs – even when the dog did not always do well.
- I did all the training myself for first year until I was getting nowhere with his leash pulling. So, I enrolled us in a training course with 10 other dogs and their owners. I learned positive training techniques (i.e., “carrot” method) and that solved the pulling problem.
Making my pup versatile so he would be welcome my anyone if something were to happen to me:
- We went truck trips right away (he got sick at first and that was OK, it passed evenually)
- Took walks in the big city (we live in the quiet Country); big cities are very noisy and have lots of smells and people everything moves fast. He sought my protection and I gave it.
- Went to Dog Parks where he had to get used to being sniffed by giant dogs)
- We went hiking in the wilderness. He was suspicious of noisy, moving stream water and then loved swimming in it.
- Peopled parks where he decided that all people are nice.
Some subtle things:
- I use meal time as a great time for refreshed training such as by hiding one of his kibbles and telling him to “find” it. Further, to show him patience I say “wait” when I place his food bowl down. I make him wait a minute or more, then “ok”.
- I wait for him to look at me before giving him what he wants. For example, a food reward, or opening the door or putting on his leash. I figure his mind is where ever he is looking so I want his mind on me.
- His commands as simple one-word commands. And not combined with his name.
- I don’t discipline him; I just do not show enthusiasm. He knows what I am thinking by my body language. The GSP breed wants to please.
- When he accidently does something I like I make a big fuss. For example, the first time he pointed or the first time he lookd at me at the door. I think he learns faster when he figures it out himself.
PHR (point, hunt, retrieve) - my GSP almost did these things automatically:
- Hunt – indoors I hid a kibble somewhere in the house while he waited in another room. Then I say “find”. He really likes this exercise of his nose and hunting skills.
- Point – outdoors he did this automatically and I would very slowly and gently approach from behind saying “easy”, “good boy” to encourage him to be patient and stay in a point.
- Ultimate - while he waits somewhere in the field, I hide a live quail somewhere else. On “find” he goes looking for it and holds his point until I arrive to flush the bird whereafter he goes crazy trying to find it again (it flies far away).
My mental state:
- I train my GSP just for his and my pleasure and not to show his skills off to others. I have no stress this way and can simply enjoy the challenge of training him.
- I have wondered how I managed to train him to know 40 commands when I had never trained anything before and I figured it was simply “love”. That is to say, I enjoy the challenge of training and actually I feel closer to him when I detect the limits of his skills. I figure I could have bought a dog-robot that would do everything perfectly all the time; but ,I could never love a robot. A real dog makes mistakes and has freedom of will and that is what I appreciate.
My learning process:
- Talk with owners of GSP dogs
- Books, web videos, Gundog Forum, etc. gave me many opinions for care and training (for example – carrot vs stick training, use of food rewards or not, types of collars, showing physical dominance or not, etc.). I really liked videos by “Aytee” in the UK because I witnessed respect and compassion by the trainer of her GSP gundogs – even when the dog did not always do well.
- I did all the training myself for first year until I was getting nowhere with his leash pulling. So, I enrolled us in a training course with 10 other dogs and their owners. I learned positive training techniques (i.e., “carrot” method) and that solved the pulling problem.
Making my pup versatile so he would be welcome my anyone if something were to happen to me:
- We went truck trips right away (he got sick at first and that was OK, it passed evenually)
- Took walks in the big city (we live in the quiet Country); big cities are very noisy and have lots of smells and people everything moves fast. He sought my protection and I gave it.
- Went to Dog Parks where he had to get used to being sniffed by giant dogs)
- We went hiking in the wilderness. He was suspicious of noisy, moving stream water and then loved swimming in it.
- Peopled parks where he decided that all people are nice.
Some subtle things:
- I use meal time as a great time for refreshed training such as by hiding one of his kibbles and telling him to “find” it. Further, to show him patience I say “wait” when I place his food bowl down. I make him wait a minute or more, then “ok”.
- I wait for him to look at me before giving him what he wants. For example, a food reward, or opening the door or putting on his leash. I figure his mind is where ever he is looking so I want his mind on me.
- His commands as simple one-word commands. And not combined with his name.
- I don’t discipline him; I just do not show enthusiasm. He knows what I am thinking by my body language. The GSP breed wants to please.
- When he accidently does something I like I make a big fuss. For example, the first time he pointed or the first time he lookd at me at the door. I think he learns faster when he figures it out himself.
PHR (point, hunt, retrieve) - my GSP almost did these things automatically:
- Hunt – indoors I hid a kibble somewhere in the house while he waited in another room. Then I say “find”. He really likes this exercise of his nose and hunting skills.
- Point – outdoors he did this automatically and I would very slowly and gently approach from behind saying “easy”, “good boy” to encourage him to be patient and stay in a point.
- Ultimate - while he waits somewhere in the field, I hide a live quail somewhere else. On “find” he goes looking for it and holds his point until I arrive to flush the bird whereafter he goes crazy trying to find it again (it flies far away).
My mental state:
- I train my GSP just for his and my pleasure and not to show his skills off to others. I have no stress this way and can simply enjoy the challenge of training him.
- I have wondered how I managed to train him to know 40 commands when I had never trained anything before and I figured it was simply “love”. That is to say, I enjoy the challenge of training and actually I feel closer to him when I detect the limits of his skills. I figure I could have bought a dog-robot that would do everything perfectly all the time; but ,I could never love a robot. A real dog makes mistakes and has freedom of will and that is what I appreciate.
Re: new member Mike
Thumbs Up Jay!!!!